Fergus McCann v David Murray

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How Celtic Turned the Tables on their Glasgow Rivals by Stephen O Donnell:
A Review by Auldheid.

Stephen’s previous publication, Tangled Up In Blue provided a detailed history of the rise and fall of Glasgow Rangers FC PLC from 1872 until their demise in 2012. Clearly a lot of research had been done to cover the period in such detail and his follow up publication Fergus McCann v David Murray etc carries on with that tradition. It is a smorgasbord of a book with many different issues succulently served up in its 350 pages.

It tells of events under David Murray’s tenure at Ibrox which began in November 1988 and ended in May 2011 when he left Craig Whyte holding the rope that became a noose just under a year later in April 2012 when Whyte was found guilty of bringing Scottish football into disrepute whilst Murray claimed he was duped.

Readers of the book will come to the conclusion that if anyone did the duping it was David Murray and it wasn’t just Craig Whyte he duped but Scotland’s national game. If ever Murray were to be tried for crimes against Scottish football then this book would be cited as evidence.

It was against the background of David Murray’s tenure at Rangers that Fergus McCann first arrived on the scene in April 1989 with proposals to inject £17M of New Capital into Celtic that the Celtic Board rejected as per minutes:

Proposals put forward by Fergus McCann to provide finance for various capital expenditures were unanimously rejected by the Directors’; and then again in August of the same year: ‘Mr McCann’s latest proposals were discussed and it was hoped that this was a final discussion on the subject. Latest proposals were rejected by Directors.
Fergus later returned to the fray and the chapter on how he was successful in ousting the Board in 1994 is an informative read, particularly if in that period single parenting cares took precedence over caring for Celtic.

I was amused reading the tale of discontent aimed at the old Board after a Ne’erday 4-2 defeat to Rangers in January 1994 when a bemused Walter Smith was watching the hostility aimed at the Celtic Directors box, one fan in the main stand screamed at him, ‘What are you looking at, it’s got fuck all to do with you.”

For me anyway there were a few “not a lot of people know that” moments like that in the book.
The contrast between Fergus McCann’s and David Murray’s style was immediately evident, but the impact of Fergus’s shorter tenure from 1994 to 1999 became more than evident after McCann left and the author does not miss the role servile journalists played and hit the wall for turning Celtic supporters against McCann during his tenure, whilst they dined on Murray’s succulent lamb. A role that in the end helped bring about Rangers end, but not the culture of servility when covering the activity of Rangers FC PLC successor club from 2012.

Sky TV get it in the neck too and if David Murray played the part of Colonel Mustard in killing Scottish football through his financial recklessness and duplicity, Sky are the lead pipe whose toxicity still dictates the nature of the current state of play.( I said it was a Smorgasbord)

Fergus kind of did what it said on the tin. In his case a tin of nippy sweeties, but it was interesting to read about his early years when even then he was described as “a cheeky upstart” but his “idiosyncrasies” and appearance under a bunnet, disguised a sharp if impatient business mind where for him getting straight to the point was akin to procrastination.

So too has Murray’s early years been covered including his rejected attempt to buy Ayr Utd, a rejection by Ayr Directors, who considered Murray was too hot headed and most volatile, that infuriated him.

Their conclusion that he was trying to get Ayr United on the cheap with only £125k of his own money involved was an indicator of his strategy of using other people’s money to invest and not his own. Other people including unsuspecting taxpayers to a tune of £50 million or so.

As you follow the narrative of both Fergus McCann and David Murray and the events that surrounded them, you end up wondering how so many could have been fooled for so long by one guy, but when you have the Scottish media in your pocket it was difficult to separate fact from fiction during the tenure of both. You also wonder how Murray remains a Knight of the Realm since.

Luckily for Celtic Fergus knew business fact from PR fiction and avoided the illusion in which Celtic’s main rivals continue to struggle to this day.

The great pity is that few, if any of the Scottish main stream media will even give this book a mention, because if you don’t write about it, it never happened, except it did and this book is proof.

I therefore recommend anyone interested in the future of our game buys it and asks, is it not now time to revisit the purpose of Scottish football?

Auldheid

1240 COMMENTS


  1. As it stands just now, and has done since it came into existence, Rangers is not run as a viable business model. It is a very expensive hobby for wealthy people.

    The simple reason for that is that sustainable growth is not acceptable to the people who run the business, or those who support it. Especially not when another club from the same city is on it's way to potentially winning it's tenth successive league title. To say nothing of several consecutive trebles. 

    This is little different to the previous club which occupied the same stadium, that club ran up tens of millions in debt leading to David Murray re-structuring his own business to absorb that debt. That was part of a failed share issue which if memory serves he underwrote to the tune of £50m. 

    What did they do after that on, carried on with the same madness, leading to massive tax avoidance, substantial other debts and the liquidation of the club. All in the belief that they were too much of an institution for the establishment to allow that. 

    At least they seem, on the face of it, to be paying for it themselves this time. Rather than stealing from other people to achieve what they are achieving.

    Which is actually very little so far. Year on year losses and not a major trophy to show for it.


  2. paddy malarkey 24th October 2020 at 13:27

    '..if it would be possible for someone else to buy the old club (RFC)) out of liquidation, secure agreement with creditors and relaunch in  say  WOSFL ? '

    """""""""""""""""""""

    When the liquidators finish, RFC of 1872 would be dissolved.

    Before dissolution it is theoretically possible (as Dave king knows) for someone to pay all the debts etc and bring the club out of Liquidation.

    The practicalities of doing so would be problematic, to say the least. Would RFC of 1872 be legally entitled, without dispute, to membership of the SPL (which it lost only because it suffered the Insolvency event of Liquidation) ? In which case, would TRFC have to be stripped of its membership of the SPL to make room for RFC of '72, , and if so, on what grounds? Or would the SPL have to allow a thirteen team set up? 

    And if RFC of '72 merely reassumes its place as RFC of '72 as if insolvency had not happened and it had not therefore lost its league membership would the SFA be legally obliged to admit it into membership of the SFA?

    One can see from this the absolute nonsense of the lie behind the creation of Sevco/TRFC!

    And, astonishingly enough, even after dissolution, a dissolved entity can still be un-dissolved by the Court within two years of the dissolution!

    I haven't the brains to be able properly to research  and understand all the ins and outs of this, but have a look at, for example,

     

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/company-strike-off

    (and other relevant or associated web-sites)  and I think that what I say about the theoretical position is accurate enough. (I may be wrong, entirely, of course)

    Whether and how theory might apply in the practical case of  a (sooner or later to be dissolved) football club  would be one for the lawyers!

    [one could have fun speculating whether the SFA and SPFL would then really take the expulsion action that ought properly to have been taken in respect of the football cheating, which the bigger tax-cheating tended to overshadow]


  3. paddy malarkey 24th October 2020 at 13:27

    While awaiting my first view of The Mighty Jags this season, I was wondering if it would be possible for someone else to buy the old club (RFC)) out of liquidation, secure agreement with creditors and relaunch in  say  WOSFL ?

     

    Would the old out of liquidation be able to claim the history of the new and keep the Ramsden cup and Championship title win, or would this be resigned to the bin with the new or would two Rangers be operating in the league again with Albert Kinloc reclaiming his bet again.

     


  4. I’m hearing 3 Standard Liege players have tested positive for Covid. Is there any mandatory rules re. isolating that could kick in given the proximity of players – tracked by GPS etc – or does it come down only to tests?

    Precedents in other games where 3 players in a team have been Covid-positive – presuming as play raged, players tussled against eachother.

    Given the scottish system resulted in Christie having to sit out after negative tests, I think Gerrard will be counting his stars this tie occurred away from home…

    I won’t hold my breath.


  5. bigboab1916 24th October 2020 at 20:50

    ".. with Albert Kinloch reclaiming his bet again."

    """"""""""""""""""

    That,bigboab1916, prompted me to have another wee look at Lord Bannatyne's judgment in that case,

    My eye fell on this :

    "The Agreed Background Surrounding the Placing of the Bet
    [7]        An association football club bearing the name “Rangers Football Club” was founded in 1872.  Until 2000 Rangers Football Club was owned by the Rangers Football Club Ltd and thereafter by Rangers Football Club Plc.  A team with the name “Rangers” has played in various different football leagues, football cup competitions and football championships. 

    [8]        The company operating the football team which played in the SPL under the name “Rangers Football Club” in the 2011/2012 season was The Rangers Football Club Plc."

    Now, far be it from me to contradict the learned Judge, but CH records appear to show that on re- registration as a plc on 31 March 1982, no new entity, no 'holding company' was created. ( Was his Lordship given duff information??) The company number was still 4276, the company number of the wee football club of the 4 young men on Glasgow Green when that wee club first was incorporated!

    the text of the certificate is as follows:

    "Certificate of Incorporation on Re-registration as a public company

    No. 4276

    issued on 31.3.1982

    I hereby certify that the Rangers Football Club plc has been re-registered under the Companies Acts 1948 to 1981 as a public company, and that the company is limited.

    Dated at Edinburgh the 31 March 1982."

    Where did his lordship get the idea that there was more than one entity than the football club when he talks about 'the company operating the football team ?'

    But this is all old hat.

    We had QCs babbling about 'ethereal entities' , about the 'spirit', the 'essence', of a football club, the 'what it's all about', continuing in existence after it actually died!

    The sheer ridiculous nonsense of it all!

    We know for a fact that RFC of 1872 ceased to be entitled to participate in Scottish Football. They were not relegated. 

    I think that Lord Bannatyne's observations about there being  a holding company distinct from the club incidentally helped the cause of those who propagate the untruth that Sevco/TRFC are RFC of 1872.

    I say no more.

    ( I thought, incidentally, that I heard on one of my trips to the CoS that Lord Bannatyne was possibly going to retire early ? He must still be   a couple of years or so short of the statutory  retirement age?)

     


  6. Unlike an incorporated structure, an unincorporated association is not a separate legal entity from its members. … Therefore, an unincorporated association cannot enter into contracts in its own name, or own land, or employ people, or sue or be sued.

     

    Unincorporated associations and ACNC registration | Australian …

    http://www.acnc.gov.au › factsheet-unincorporated-associations..


  7. Don’t be too harsh on Lord Bannatyne, for it was he who confirmed in a court of law the following:

    [180]    However, as submitted by Mr Sandison that is not what happened to Rangers.  It was either unchallenged evidence or a matter of admission, that what happened to Rangers at the material time was this:  the Rangers Football Club Plc sold inter alia the one share in the SPL to Sevco Scotland Limited.  That sale required the approval of at least 8 of the members of the SPL.  That application was refused.  It was thus no longer eligible to play in the SPL.  It thereafter applied to the SFL and was permitted to join the lowest league of the SFL (the five part agreement). The foregoing process cannot be described as being moved by anyone to a lower division, or being moved down or demoted.  The dictionary definitions are not apt to cover what happened to Rangers.  I am satisfied that what did not happen was that the SPL moved or demoted Rangers to a lower division.  Rangers ended up in a lower division by the entry into a contract which allowed them to join the SFL in the third division.

    If I had a pound for everytime I’ve heard the words “relegated” and “demoted” used by media in relation to the liquidation of 2012, usually in a pitying tone that must be so galling to unpaid creditors that happen to cross paths with such a dialogue, I would be a very rich man.


  8. Homunculus 24th October 2020 at 13:43

    As it stands just now, and has done since it came into existence, Rangers is not run as a viable business model. It is a very expensive hobby for wealthy people.

    The simple reason for that is that sustainable growth is not acceptable to the people who run the business, or those who support it. Especially not when another club from the same city is on it's way to potentially winning it's tenth successive league title. To say nothing of several consecutive trebles. 

    This is little different to the previous club which occupied the same stadium, that club ran up tens of millions in debt leading to David Murray re-structuring his own business to absorb that debt. That was part of a failed share issue which if memory serves he underwrote to the tune of £50m. 

    What did they do after that on, carried on with the same madness, leading to massive tax avoidance, substantial other debts and the liquidation of the club. All in the belief that they were too much of an institution for the establishment to allow that. 

    At least they seem, on the face of it, to be paying for it themselves this time. Rather than stealing from other people to achieve what they are achieving.

    Which is actually very little so far. Year on year losses and not a major trophy to show for it.

    ==============%%%================

    I'd agree that it's not a sustainable business model but would point out that the intention is not to indefinitely continue down this path, for obvious reasons.

    As I said earlier, the 5 years or so since regime change have broadly reflected the projections put forward back in 2015. A structured loss that would be paid for by willing individuals, within the rules. The aim being that within this timeframe we would get our act together both on and off the pitch. Thereafter we could be run in a sustainable manner.

    The five years is now heading to six but I now see distinct signs of this coming to pass. For example, I'd point towards the management of players contracts together with significant added market value of several individuals. In other words, if next summer we sell Barisic, Kamara and Kent, we'd be looking at a relatively large transfer fund and black numbers in the accounts.

    The other * in play at the moment is obviously Covid but that goes for everyone.

     

     

    To get to break-even/profit 

     


  9. I visited my elderly father-in-law recently.

    A dyed-in-the-wool Rangers fan, who spent far too much money on a 'seat for life' at Ibrox many years ago – which had his nameplate attached to it – and for which he still had to pay for his season ticket each year.

    Still loves watching the games on TV now – but he does occasionally get confused and angry about losing his 'seat for life' at Ibrox in 2012.

    Tactfully, I just don't say anything at all about 2012 and Rangers (In Liquidation). 

    A lifelong fan ripped off by his own club, Rangers FC.

    And as far as I'm aware, the current Ibrox club – which claims to be the very same Rangers F.C. – has never contacted him about returning his seat.

    It seems that the new club is just as dignified as the old club. 

    indecision


  10. Apologies for repeating what I’ve said many times on here, but there are certain things that can’t go unchallenged.

    “UEFA aren’t full of masons”, said Reasonable Chap in an earlier post (which now seems to have disappeared).

    No, but I’m sure you’re well aware of instances of fraud and corruption involving senior officials of UEFA and FIFA, amongst many other football authorities across the globe in recent years, so referencing UEFA as some kind of paragon of virtue is an exercise in futility. It’s on par with giving credence to the Advertising Standards Agency’s take on the ‘same club’ debate, despite the ASA allowing manufacturer Barrs to claim that Irn Bru is made from girders!

    Modern day football, particularly in the higher echelons, is entirely money-driven, and as we all know, money corrupts. That’s why FIFA awarded the hosting of a World Cup to Qatar, to quote one obvious example. Attempts by greedy elite clubs to grab even more money became apparent in recent weeks with the ‘Big Picture’ and European Super League proposals.

    Although much lower down the food (and evolutionary) chain, the football authorities’ treatment of post liquidation Rangers amply demonstrates that money is king. If precisely the same set of circumstances had instead befallen Berwick Rangers or Brora Rangers, you can be assured there would be no five-way agreement concocted to treat a new successor club as if it was the old defunct one, because these clubs have no bearing on existing and future broadcasting contracts, which stipulate, or at least are determined by, a minimum number of Glasgow derby games.

    Rangers* delusional fans, who stood back and let their club die while waiting for a benevolent billionaire saviour to appear over the horizon back in 2012, seem incapable of grasping the simple fact that the football authorities knew that fans wouldn’t support a new club in sufficient numbers, so they resorted to fabricating a fairy-tale that would keep the fans on board while safeguarding broadcasting contracts. That does not mean the current club playing out of Ibrox is the same as the one formed in the 19th century – it simply means they have one of the two largest supports in Scotland – a support that must be retained for the purposes of financial expediency, according to the blazers.  

    Rangers Football Club died an entirely self-inflicted death back in 2012 following at least a decade of industrial-scale cheating. No amount of history rewriting and airbrushing of facts can alter that.

    Reasonable Chap claims that only a small and insignificant number of people hold the views the majority of SFM posters hold, yet he contradicts this by regularly feeling compelled to come on here to post his usual propaganda. Methinks sir doth protest too much, because, as he knows, the incontrovertible truth of Rangers’ death continues to gnaw away at him incessantly.   


  11. Absolutely, Highlander!

    And WRT the continuing denial of the truth down Govan way, an applicable saying could be;

    "The prisons are full of innocent people!"

    (Although the Scottish prison system is still 'missing' David Murray.)


  12. Charles Green came up with "… it is the holding company which is being liquidated, not the club" lie. The holding company was Wavetower. He did this after saying that liquidation meant that the club died, when he was desperately trying to avoid it.

    The "regime change" came up with "structured losses", and nothing changed. They just came up with some propaganda to explain running the business at a loss in a desperate attempt to win the league, to keep the fans onside.

    The bottom line is that the previous club was also running at a loss, which was hidden by Murrays restructuring, and stealing tax, for years. When Murray sold up Whyte ran the business at a loss, and ultimately the club was liquidated. The simple reason for both is that the owners and the support cannot accept that at least financially they are far from being the biggest or best. 

    This spending money the club doesn't have is no different to the club whish is being liquidated. 

     


  13. StevieBC 25th October 2020 at 10:17

    '.A lifelong fan ripped off by his own club, Rangers FC.'

    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    From the 'Sun'

    "Rangers fans hit by £8m penalty

    By KENNY ANGOVE, PAUL THORNTON and GORDON TAIT

    16th February 2012, 2:27 am

    Updated: 5th April 2016, 2:29 pm

    RANGERS fans could lose out on almost £8MILLION after it was revealed 6,000 of
    them splashed cash on a tickets scheme which is now under threat.

    Football finance experts last night told the supporters — who each spent up to
    £1,650 on debentures for seats at Ibrox — to “forget” trying to reclaim
    their dosh.

    And they warned every season ticket holder could even be forced to pay AGAIN
    to see this season’s remaining games — because administrators may rip up
    their existing briefs to generate more revenue.

    Chris Brady, of London-based BPP Business School, said: “Football creditors —
    the players, the staff and those keeping the club physically going — get
    paid first.

    “Anyone else is at the back of the queue.”

    The dilemma for the debenture group — who collectively are owed one of the
    largest sums behind chief creditor Craig Whyte and Her Majesty’s Revenue and
    Customs — emerged last night.

    It relates to a seating plan launched after previous owner Sir David Murray
    built a third tier on Ibrox’s Main Stand in 1991.

    He used a debenture issue to fund the project — letting supporters pay between
    £1,000 and £1,650 for the right to buy a season ticket in that area for the
    next 35 years.

    Rangers’ financial meltdown means those fans are now entitled to have their
    investment repaid.

    The club’s most recent audited accounts — for the year ending June 30 2010 —
    confirmed the liability and revealed there are 6,050 debenture holders, who
    would be due a total of £7.736million.

    Mr Brady, an authority on soccer finances, added: “These guys will find
    themselves well down the list.

    “Basically they can more or less forget their money.

    “They will have no rights to the money because they won’t be the No 1
    creditors and the day-to-day running of the club will come first.

    “The good news is the seats will still exist and I suppose the new owner could
    honour the seats — but that would be up to him."

    [ Ha, ha! some hope of that, eh, what?]

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/378676/rangers-fans-hit-by-8m-penalty


  14. Who remembers the fun we had with the 'Charlotte Fakes' material?

    I know, of course, that 'Mr Advocate Depute' referred to them the during the 'trial', but to this day I'm not entirely sure whether it's legally safe for anyone to copy them on, say, a football blog!

    Being the most computer- illiterate of beings, I copied only one or two of the messages that passed by email between the actors in the purchase of RFC of 1872. These  relate to the early stages in the purchase, but I think that even by the time they appeared on the blog I still was quite ignorant of what their significance may have been.

    The entertainment value, however,  was priceless!

    I could see of course from the general tenor and tone of some emails that trying to stay safely 'legal' as opposed to 'honest' was uppermost in mind. [Par for the course in the business world, I suppose, and perhaps particularly so in what we all discovered was the mucky, mucky world of Scottish football]

    But surely there would be an entertaining and informative piece/ book to be written if it were  legally safe to do so? 

    What is it they say about emails? They cannot ever be totally deleted- they're out there in some 9-storey deep underground bank of servers in Kansas or Khazakstan, in the 'cloud'!broken heart

     

     

     


  15. Homunculus 25th October 2020 at 11:23

    '..He did this after saying that liquidation meant that the club died, when he was desperately trying to avoid it.'

    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    Oh, shades of one James Traynor, God bless the soul that he lost!

    'James of the 'banner headlines' about the end of 140 years history! Big, bullying James of 'Your Call' on propagandist (shade of Peter Thomson!)  BBC Radio Scotland! broken heart

    To be followed followed (astounding miracle of conversion!) by a grovelling, a grovelling, canting [cAnting]  James working in a PR function with and for a club born in 2012 which , in a deceitful collaboration with a rank rotten [I like that phrase] parcel of rogues in football governance, is deemed to be , now, 148 years old and which sells itself falsely as such to  people happy to lie on its behalf!

    Aye, Scottish football:

    Like a fish, rotting  from the head down, purveyed to us by a governance body even more rotten, supported by the suppurating rottenness of the SMSM.

     

     


  16. Highlander 25th October 2020 at 10:52

    “UEFA aren’t full of masons”, said Reasonable Chap in an earlier post (which now seems to have disappeared).

    No, but I’m sure you’re well aware of instances of fraud and corruption involving senior officials of UEFA and FIFA, amongst many other football authorities across the globe in recent years, so referencing UEFA as some kind of paragon of virtue is an exercise in futility…..

    ….Reasonable Chap claims that only a small and insignificant number of people hold the views the majority of SFM posters hold, yet he contradicts this by regularly feeling compelled to come on here to post his usual propaganda. Methinks sir doth protest too much, because, as he knows, the incontrovertible truth of Rangers’ death continues to gnaw away at him incessantly.  

    ========%%%============================

    If you choose to ignore everything that any sporting governing body, national/local government, or large commercial organisation say because of previous cases of corruption in senior officials then you are pretty much advocating a route map of anarchy.  

    You talk of money and it’s influence. I’d ask you regards Rangers OC/NC, what would make it worth UEFA’s while to go down what you point towards as a corrupt route ?

    What you have is a heavily biased group of football supporters whose own clubs don’t want to know about their complaint and a Res.12 that has washed up on the rocks of the legal system.

     

    You can get most non Rangers fans in Scotland to sing about Sevco for 90 minutes but I’d repeat my claim that it is a small and insignificant number of people who are for want of a better phrase, hardline activists. I’d add that as time passes, the number is getting smaller. Just as the traffic on here isn’t as busy as it once was.

    I post my views and opinions, not propaganda. Just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t make them James Traynor. I often broach the subjects that are very much within the stated purview of SFM but because many don’t like/share my views they are dismissed. For example, Peter Lawwell is THE most significant political figure within the Scottish game but many are trapped in something akin to the old OC/NC thread or see everything through, what easyjambo referred to as the TRFC prism.

    When Les Gray was appointed to the main board of the SFA in what can be described as a further cross-polination (of friends) in governing bodies this summer*, it didn’t get a mention on here but instead there were posts on the suspicious amount of time an ex Sevco player (Andy Haliday) was getting on media gigs, the colour of Sevcos socks but mostly OC/NC with heavy emphasis on NC.

     

    *https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scotsman/20200829/282677574677309

     

     

     


  17. John Clark 25th October 2020 at 22:55

    Who remembers the fun we had with the ‘Charlotte Fakes’ material?
    …………….
    Yes, i remember i had it all stored on a hard drive until that hard drive died on me. And if i remember correctly SFM kind of distanced itself from it at the time.(happy to be corrected)
    Now that we know that king paid for the hacked emails and if i remember again correctly they eventually could get used in court.
    But surely they would be an entertaining and informative piece to now be revisited if anyone has that material?


  18. reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:19
    What you have is a heavily biased group of football supporters whose own clubs don’t want to know about their complaint and a Res.12 that has washed up on the rocks of the legal system.
    …………….
    Even now i can speak to some celtic supporters who just have no clue about Res 12, Even some fans of an ibrox club i speak to have no clue. But both could tell you about the amount of time an ex Sevco player (Andy Haliday) was getting on media gigs,
    ……….
    What does that tell us?


  19. I always thought one of the most significant releases by Charlotte was the first or at least within the first batch.

    IIRC the details correctly,…the Jack Irvine email to an alias of Sir Duped, about using his nexus search engine to help clean up CW's internet history.


  20. Cluster…What does that tell us?

    =======

    Andy (a Hearts player) is a natural at various sectors of the Scottish Fitbaw Media.

    Just as Simon Ferry is very good at what he does.

     

    I had to laugh at the fan who was a caller (Frank) to Superscoreboard to have a go at Andy and IMO ended up revealing how things really are for many. the conversation was about the recent upcoming Celtic v Rangers game and Frank in a matter of fact way used the term, Old Firm. However about a second or two later Frank realised this was a huge mistake for a Celtic fan on live radio and frantically tried to take it back.

    The serious point being is that there are many Franks. Whilst they know as Celtic fans, they shouldn’t utter certain names and should try to keep up with general policy…. deep down nothing has changed for them regards Rangers and the associated rivalry/hate.

     


  21. A correspondent to the 'Scotsman' this morning, who describes himself as having devoted more than 30 years of his professional life to "carefully respecting the BBC's long established objectivity and independence" takes 'personal offence' at the call made by a politician for a campaign of non-payment  of the BBC licence fee.

    Remarking that many of his former colleagues still work for the Corporation, the correspondent takes issue with the politician's assertion that 'their [the BBC's] gold standard among broadcasters has been tarnished'  by coverage of the Independence referendum and subsequently 'the boosting of Brexit'.

    The correspondent ( Mr Kit Fraser no less,  whose dulcet tones I remember well) clearly has not heard the monstrous nonsense of a lie that has been spouted by BBC Radio Scotland in relation to the liquidation of one football club and the astonishing  140 years of sporting success achieved by a club created in 2012!!

    That absolutely unnecessary lie (in a simple sports matter, for heaven's sake!) tarnished for ever the 'gold standard 'of objective reporting, because it required a deliberate dictat from senior management, under threat of punishment if disobeyed by any of its reporting staff.

    I would suggest to Mr Fraser that his respect for the 'Corporation' of the present day is misplaced and unmerited.


  22. reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:19

    My fundamental point was that various sets of football authorities treated one insolvent club entirely differently from how they would have treated all other clubs, with the possible exception of Celtic, because, in their view, the only financially viable model that works in Scottish football involves the broadcasting of several Celtic/Rangers matches per season, alongside other commercial contracts. That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club

    Those football authorities concocted a five way agreement in which they agreed to treat Charles Green’s new club as if it was the old defunct club. That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club.

    You are correct in saying that other clubs have no appetite for delving into Res 12 and other crimes committed by Rangers in the past, but those clubs’ collusion and subsequent silence was the trade-off for the financial security of still having a form of Rangers in the league setup. That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club.

    A few days ago, you mentioned the likelihood of several clubs going out of business as a result of the financial consequences of Covid 19. How peculiar that you can envisage football clubs going out of business as a result of a pandemic, but you can’t accept that a specific football club which went into liquidation owing multi-millions of pounds didn’t go out of business – only its operating company did, allegedly.


  23. As time goes by, and the details of 2012 become blurred…

    I'd hazard a guess that if – in say 10 years time – you were to ask ANY non-Ibrox supporter across Scotland;

    "What happened to Rangers in 2012?"

    then, the standard answer would be similar in substance to;

    "Rangers cheated and then died, [was liquidated]."

    That basic memory will never fade amongst Scottish football supporters, IMO, and it never should. 

    And that's why The Rangers – pretending to be Rangers FC – will never be respected as a club, but a source of never-ending derision.

    I suppose that is justice, of sorts?


  24. Highlander

    You seemed to dismiss my reference to the UEFA stance on Rangers, citing that there had previously been corruption of senior figures within said organisation, that led to financial gain.

    What was in it for UEFA to further risk their reputation by knowingly going down an ‘unsafe path’ ?

    Given correspondence received, do you think it reasonable to assume they got their legals to make sure of their ground prior to their decision ?

     

     


  25. reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 14:27

    “Highlander

    You seemed to dismiss my reference……”

    Considering you have side-stepped, ignored and studiously avoided every pertinent point I’ve made, can I suggest you use any decent online dictionary to look up the definition of ‘irony’?

    The next bit won’t come as a surprise to you and you might even find a pattern emerging.

    That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club.


  26. Highlander 26th October 2020 at 15:07

    '..That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club.'

    """"""""""""""""""""""""""

    And, of course, Highlander, not actually being the club of 140 years' sporting history, suggests that the RIFC plc IPO might indeed have been deliberately misleading in implying that it was the holding company of the famous/notorious RFC of 1872!

    With that possibility in their minds, it's easy to see why in fear they have to deny that RFC of 1872 lost its membership of the then SPL and in consequence lost its entitlement to membership of the SFA and ceased to be permitted to participate in Scottish professional football. 

    If that was ever admitted, there would have to be serious consequences for a whole lot of people.

    They had to enter lie-lie land with the willing co-operation of cheats in Football governance, and the support of the SMSM, particularly and most significantly, the support of scoundrels on Pacific Quay!

     


  27. reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:19

    For example, Peter Lawwell is THE most significant political figure within the Scottish game

     

    Bit of a row back that for the man in your head . Not too long ago ,you had him running Scottish football with a heavy hand , compelling  club owners , match officials and the authorities to accept his diktats in silence . His club lose a couple of games , his rivals are  odds on to win this year's title , and now his fickle supporters have relegated or demoted him from a position of preeminence to being a mere cog in the machine . I don't recall anybody posting here ever doubting his influence on football up here , but you'd need to be a bit of a fan boy to give credence to the notion of him unilaterally running the game . On a brighter note , The Mighty Jags won their first league game this year on Saturday . Thank you . Peter .

     


  28. Celtics trading annual results advised to the stock exchange

    Financial Highlights
    ·    Group revenue decreased by 15.8% to £70.2m (2019: £83.4m)
    ·    Operating expenses including labour decreased by 7.3% to £80.5m (2019: £86.9m)
    ·    Gain on sale of player registrations of £24.2m (2019: £17.7m)
    ·    Acquisition of player registrations of £20.7m (2019: £6.2m  
    ·    Profit before taxation of £0.1m (2019: £11.3m)
    ·    Year-end cash net of bank borrowings of £18.2m (2019: £28.6m)

    It’s not an unexpected set of accounts with revenue down, cash in the back down and that despite £24m incoming from transfers.
     


  29. Current liabilities  2020 2019 

    Trade and other payables     20,744     13,957

    Lease liabilities    604       –

    Borrowings  1,364     1,364

    Provisions    5,942      3,479

    Deferred income    21,275    25,614

    Totals                    49,929     44,414

    Looking at the above figures I was trying to work out the ongoing liabilities for deferred wages.  I don’t know if it will be included in the £6.8m increase in Trade and Other Payables, or in the £2.5m increase in Provisions.

    The drop in deferred income suggests a fall of £4.2m in Season Ticket revenue.


  30. The fall in Celtic’s revenue is across all areas.

    Football Operations down £7.5m
    Merchandising down £3m
    Multimedia and other Commercial activities down £2.7m

    This current season could be even more challenging with the increased liabilities and reduced income. The club has also increased its revolving credit facility from £2m to £13m (still unused) just in case.


  31. easyjambo

    Re Celtic fall in revenue and profit  due to Covid 19

    Probably an unfair question, but could you venture an opinion (for the less financially astute members of our community e.g. me!) as to what the comparable returns for TRFC might look like – assuming, in a break from their 8-year old tradition (?), that these be ‘unpockled’?

    For example, would they reflect what ‘Big Mike’ is owed?

    Shirley they wouldn’t be spending ‘beyond their means’?


  32. bect67 26th October 2020 at 20:05

    Probably an unfair question, but could you venture an opinion (for the less financially astute members of our community e.g. me!) as to what the comparable returns for TRFC might look like – assuming, in a break from their 8-year old tradition (?) that these be ‘unpockled’?

    ==============================

    You are correct. It is an unfair question mail, but we should get sight of the accounts in the next month or so.

    We know they had a forecast £10m shortfall in last year’s accounts. That was almost certainly reduced by their unbudgeted extra EL revenue.  We also know that DK provided a £5m loan facility. We can also state with some certainty that Park, Letham and Taylor plus Gibson provided additional funding which has since been converted to equity in the recent share issue.

    They will show a loss, albeit that it will have been covered by the loans/share issue. How much is still outstanding is anyone’s guess.   

    They have operated with year on year losses, but despite the doom mongers forecasts they have found a way to remain afloat and grow their business, improving the strength of their squad and on-field performances year on year.

    They may forecast further shortfalls for this current year, perhaps with yet another share issue, but there is nothing to suggest that their business plan is failing.  Indeed, they appear to be getting stronger on and off the park.  Their new merchandising deal appears to be working and bringing in additional revenue (I don’t know if SD walked away, with or without cash, or declined to make a matching offer).  They have also sold out their 46,500 ST allocation, meaning that their match day revenue will be as high as it can be in the circumstances.

    Covid restrictions will still impact them, but I do think that they are in as good a shape as most other Premiership clubs to come out the other side relatively unscathed. 


  33. reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:52
    ……………
    I stopped listening to Superscoreboard years ago when DJ said lets wait and see what Ally spends the £10 mill on. After Green announced Ally would get £10 mill to spend in the lower leagues, that was enough delusion for me.

    Frank in a matter of fact way used the term, Old Firm. However about a second or two later Frank realised this was a huge mistake for a Celtic fan on live radio and frantically tried to take it back.
    ….
    Reminds me of a child using a swear word that they have just grown accustomed to hearing. If it is going to get rammed down youth throat as often as possible of course you are going to repeat it now and again.
    ………
    The serious point being is that there are many Whilst they know they have to utter certain names and try to keep the old firm band wagon going as a general policy…. deep down they know .But if they want to keep a job they have to stick to the prefered script.


  34. Cluster One 26th October 2020 at 21:46

    reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:52
    ……………
    I stopped listening to Superscoreboard years ago when DJ said lets wait and see what Ally spends the £10 mill on. After Green announced Ally would get £10 mill to spend in the lower leagues, that was enough delusion for me.

    Frank in a matter of fact way used the term, Old Firm. However about a second or two later Frank realised this was a huge mistake for a Celtic fan on live radio and frantically tried to take it back.
    ….
    Reminds me of a child using a swear word that they have just grown accustomed to hearing. If it is going to get rammed down youth throat as often as possible of course you are going to repeat it now and again.
    ………
    The serious point being is that there are many Whilst they know they have to utter certain names and try to keep the old firm band wagon going as a general policy…. deep down they know .But if they want to keep a job they have to stick to the prefered script.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    For a time I took on the onerous task of listening to Superscrotesboard on behalf of youse all and reporting back the Shugisms and Big Del's amateur PR mutterings.

    I lapsed for a time during Lockdown but tonight I listened in and as you say Cluster the policy of slipping in a TRFC reference as part of the general policy into the farrago of assininity that passes for a show broke fresh ground tonight when it was extended to the Quiz. I say quiz but really I mean a test of knowledge for IMBECILES (apologies to any imbeciles on here who just read that last sentence).

    One of the questions was:

    "Which club has won the League Cup the most times?

    It was such an easy one even I got it right. There can only be one answer thought I, it's Celtic. Imagine my surprise when Quizmaster Gordon somebody or other said it was Rangers with 27 wins.

    I exclaimed loudly at the radio "That can't be right they've never won anything except the Petrocrap Cup". Alex Rae got the question right.

    I should also report on the Rangers fan from Wishaw who called in 6 months late to declare that last season should have been declared "Null and Void". To be fair to Compere/Quizmaster Gordon he did say "goodness me I know the clocks went back at the weekend but I didn't think they went back all the way to March".

    That was not enough to deter the Lanarkshire Bluesman who stated that were the League to end early this year and Rangers were top "they" would not call it and give them the title. Paranoia is alive and well in the Covid Age.

    More Later I'm sure


  35. I was looking at the Celtic financials earlier and they seem to confirm my earlier thoughts on this (which I was shot down for in the days of the Thumbs Up/Down on here).

    As a reminder, I said that because of such large overheads and dependence on Euro “success” an interuption of income and failure in Europe could create a financial issue. Despite cash reserves of some £28m.

    Roll it forward 7 months and the issue is crystalising. Income at Champions League level has gone and Europa League progression looks uncertain. Hospitality, retail sales etc are all down. Player sale income in the period is almost equalled by purchases. The club has increased its debt facility to fill a revenue gap.

    Post the accounts year end significant amounts have been spent on new talent in an attempt to secure 10 in a row.

    Don’t get me wrong Sevco are no more financially secure than Celtic. In fact they must be struggling too. I will expand more on that later.

    So, as tradition demands I have dealt with the two most important clubs in Scotch football first. I just cross my fingers and hope all of the rest survive as best they can.

     


  36. “Highlander

    You seemed to dismiss my reference……”

    Considering you have side-stepped, ignored and studiously avoided every pertinent point I’ve made, can I suggest you use any decent online dictionary to look up the definition of ‘irony’?

    The next bit won’t come as a surprise to you and you might even find a pattern emerging.

    That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club.

    =============%%%==============

     

    There is a debate to be had regarding some of your points but it’s all pretty much been done before on various occasions. The legal, the moral, the economic imperative and then the whole mix thrown into a bowl.

    However, your takeaway summing-up/pattern is quite simply mistaken. You and others obviously have every right to to hold your opinion on the matter and I wouldn’t expect anything else from rival football supporters but the official line is that you are wrong. 

     


  37. paddy malarkey 26th October 2020 at 16:31

    reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:19

    For example, Peter Lawwell is THE most significant political figure within the Scottish game

    =======

    Bit of a row back that for the man in your head . Not too long ago ,you had him running Scottish football with a heavy hand , compelling  club owners , match officials and the authorities to accept his diktats in silence . His club lose a couple of games , his rivals are  odds on to win this year's title , and now his fickle supporters have relegated or demoted him from a position of preeminence to being a mere cog in the machine . I don't recall anybody posting here ever doubting his influence on football up here , but you'd need to be a bit of a fan boy to give credence to the notion of him unilaterally running the game .  

    =========%%%=========

    You exaggerate what I said about Peter.

    My stock line was that he is the most powerful and influential individual in the Scottish game and that he brings that influence to bear accordingly. That includes having a disproportionate amount of friends in the governing bodies. Some might call it unfair or even a degree of corruption.

    He doesn't run the game but he has considerable influence within it, where the PLC he represents have an interest.

     

    Whilst on the broad subject….. 

    I note that Dundee won their league match on Saturday with a winning goal being scored by the centre forward who is on loan from Celtic. Looks like Mr. Nelms has got himself a useful player.


  38. I think the Celtic financials show the increasing importance of player trading/mgmt. of contracts within certain business models. They have done very well out of it in recent years.

    This, IMO is where Rangers have to show considerable improvment so as to be able to regularly get to break-even or better. At this moment in time, the signs are that it is improving considerably.

     

    That said, I think the Covid related threat looms large for all. I can’t see anything but general economic carnage coming down the line. Football won’t be high up on government priorities.


  39. reasonablechap 27th October 2020 at 06:14

    "You and others obviously have every right to to hold your opinion on the matter"

    ______________________________________________

    It would be less than courteous and magnanimous of me not to acknowledge that you have every right to hold your erroneous, warped and agenda-driven opinion on the matter.


  40. The 'official line' of any 'official body' -from a Nazi Government down to 'sports governance' bodies- is as likely as not to based on untruth.

    It is an absolute untruth that TRFC is Rangers of 1872. TRFC is currently playing in the SPFL: Rangers of 1872 (aka RFC 2012) is in Liquidation.

    TRFC was founded in 2012. RFC of 1872 ( aka RFC 2012) was founded by honourable, truthful young men in 1872.

    'Officialdom'  -in the shape of the SFA, ASA, the BBC, and the SMSM, and 'unofficialdom' in the shape of the persons  enjoying a pint in Louden's Tavern, may huff and puff and curse and swear to the contrary, but truth and reality are as much against them as the wind is when one pees into it.

     


  41. Highlander 27th October 2020 at 09:13

    reasonablechap 27th October 2020 at 06:14

    "You and others obviously have every right to to hold your opinion on the matter"

    ______________________________________________

    It would be less than courteous and magnanimous of me not to acknowledge that you have every right to hold your erroneous, warped and agenda-driven opinion on the matter.

    ========%%%==========

    But I was referring to the official record including UEFA, not opinion.

    The opinion of a football fan or collective often depends on the team they follow or dislike. 

     

     

     

     


  42. Another superb example of ‘cut and paste’ journalism is given today by Mark Atkinson of ‘the Scotsman” under the headline “Celtic ‘grappling with challenges’ of Covid as revenue plummets”

    His piece is very largely made up of nine complete paragraphs lifted straight from Bankier’s ‘annual report’ [which eJ very helpfully posted about yesterday, ahead of the hunt] , and eleven  paras of straight quotation  from Dalglish!

    Of the remaining 10 paras, three are not direct quotes, but are paraphrases of the paras in the ‘report’

    The other paras are just statements of already known facts, eg, ‘that Celtic fell six points  behind’ and ‘ Lennon has found himself the subject of criticism…’ 

    About the only thing that is Atkinson’s own ‘work’ (apart from reading and typing) is his observation that ‘the current champions had to rely on the sale of Kieran Tierney as a major source of income” And any primary school pupil could have worked that out!

    Geez, I wish I had thought of doing  that kind of ‘journalism’ shortly after 5 pm yesterday when I had read eJ’s posts! 

    Might have got an easy  few quid if I had emailed it in to ‘The Scotsman’.

    How singularly ill-served we are, even by a newspaper that does not like to be called a ‘tabloid’, but describes itself as ‘compact’!

    I’ll try and get in first when the Chairman of the holding company of TRFC   publishes his annual report!


  43. Bogs Dollox 27th October 2020 at 00:12

    —————————————————————-

    One of the questions was:

    "Which club has won the League Cup the most times?

    It was such an easy one even I got it right. There can only be one answer thought I, it's Celtic. Imagine my surprise when Quizmaster Gordon somebody or other said it was Rangers with 27 wins.

    I exclaimed loudly at the radio "That can't be right they've never won anything except the Petrocrap Cup". Alex Rae got the question right.

    —————————————————————————-

    But surely that is the correct answer? Just not the current version of the team playing out of Govan?

    Fair's fair an aw that!


  44. reasonablechap 27th October 2020 at 10:23

    "But I was referring to the official record including UEFA, not opinion."

    _________________________________________

    …..and I was referring to the fact that Rangers Football Club, a business which failed, presently comprises of the contents of a small and no doubt tattered manilla folder in the filing cabinet of liquidator BDO, awaiting the final dispersal of assets followed by the dissolution of that business.

    Feel free to hold a contrary view, although even with linguistic gymnastics you might struggle to argue that Rangers Football Club was not a business in exactly the same way that Third Lanark, Clydebank, Airdrieonians and Gretna FC were. Feel free to come onto this site to tell us how insignificant we are in number and opinion – while betraying that insignificance with your constant need to 'correct' us with your flat-earth views.

    You, your fellow adherents and even UEFA can treat the current 'Rangers' however you and they see fit by indulging in semantics and sleight of hand, but it doesn't alter one iota the incontrovertible fact that legally, the current club playing out of Ibrox is not the same as the club founded in the 19th century and which died the self-inflicted death of liquidation in 2012 following a decade or more of industrial-scale cheating.

    The original club died precisely the same death that you recently predicted would befall several clubs as a result of the financial ramifications of Covid 19. So having preached for the past eight years that clubs are immortal, metaphysical entities, and that only their operating companies can suffer insolvency events, you're now backtracking and rewriting history again! I, for one, don't believe a word of your crayon scribblings.  


  45. reasonablechap 

    SPFL, P………….Has to be the main man within it, Peter !

    Looks like old Karla (Moscow Central) couldnae lace Peter’s boots. The Celtic heid honcho must have been inserting double agents into the masonic lodges.

    So now Edouard has tested positive. It will be interesting to see how Celtic and the SPFL handle that one. 

    ==========%%%===========

    Ask Peter !

    After Peter spoke to his friends at the SPFL and somehow, by a slice of incredible luck (effectively a 4/1 shot,..see below*), Celtic managed to land the date they wanted for the first Old Firm match, I’m sure there was a smile, a nod and a wink shared amongst friends on the 6th floor at Hampden.

    Oh, Peter….when you are next leading the way regards working with the authorities in establishing ‘the roolz’,….pay attention, so you as you fully understand them.

     

    I see what you mean wrt me exaggerating your position – don't know what led me to do that . And , as for what was stated by the footballing authorities regarding the demise of RFC , FIFA said

     https://web.archive.org/web/20160305151928/http://www.fifa.com/world-match-centre/news/newsid/197/701/7/index.html

    Whilst we are wrestling with covi-19 protocols , bubbles and testing regimes , shirley now would be the time to introduce testing for performance enhancing drugs in Scottish football . I'm pretty sure the costs would be similar , but am happy to be corrected .

     


  46. paddy malarkey

    Ahv telt ye afore Paddy – don’t feed him! 

    In terms of reasoning (ironic intit?) and open mindedness he’s a goner – ‘goosed’. Remember but – it’s no his fault (Argumentative Personality Disorder and associated strains).

    Jist write yir ain stuff, and leave it at that, eh?


  47. It’s amazing how much more enjoyable this blog is when one skips past reasonable chaps posts. 

    I commend this practice to the forum. 


  48. There I was, just getting ready to post some comments defending Celtic and Neil Lennon (particularly wrt to missing key players this season), when out he comes with his own ‘views’.

    Check it out on Celts Are Here as it may not make the ‘egregious’ SMSM!
    Dom 16
    I ‘doff my cap’ to you!!


  49. bect67

    He/she is alright really, just needs guidance. I don't have a problem with CEO's pushing for what's best for their clubs and realise this impacts on others, but to me it's the thinking that when RFC were a big club, they acted in a certain way and can't see that things can be done differently. And the assumption that we share the same level of paranoia. If your club had been liquidated and you felt guilt because you hadn't done your utmost to prevent it, you may also be looking for a Svengali to blame it all on.  So why not blame Peter Lawwell   –  distracts from your own culpability. 

     

     


  50. A general observation.

    We all witnessed in 2012 that in Scottish, senior football business trumps sport. 

    Money wins out over sporting integrity.

    The punters/customers weren’t happy, but the SFA, SPFL – and ALL the 42 clubs – decided that for us anyway.

    Fast forward 8 years and we have a prolonged period of uncertainty and financial meltdown across the game.

    The hypothetical question is: if the prevailing opinion had actually been that sport trumps business and money – always – then would the Scottish game, as a whole, be in a better position today to deal with, and survive, a pandemic?

    I honestly don’t know.

    But, what I do know is that it’s all about self-interest for clubs – especially SPL clubs.

    That position was embarrassingly reinforced over the summer WRT calling the league.

    Any consideration of taking ethical / morally correct actions for the benefit of the game as a whole would be laughed right out of SPL Boardrooms, IMO.  [Res.12 anyone?]

    The clubs chose in 2012 and they reap what they sowed now.

    Any industry, at any time can suffer a ‘shakeout’ event, where there is a period of many unprepared businesses hitting the wall, some others merge to survive etc.

    The events of 2012 still casts a shadow over the future of the game: business doesn’t do sentimentality, so for those clubs which don’t survive – it’s just business.


  51. Paddy M

    shirley now would be the time to introduce testing for performance enhancing drugs in Scottish football
    ———————-

    I’d be happier if they had sorted out the performance-enhancing side-letters first😊


  52.  

    Highlander 27th October 2020 at 12:08

    reasonablechap 27th October 2020 at 10:23

    "But I was referring to the official record including UEFA, not opinion."

    _________________________________________

    ..and I was referring to the fact that Rangers Football Club, a business which failed, presently comprises of the contents of a small and no doubt tattered manilla folder in the filing cabinet of liquidator BDO, awaiting the final dispersal of assets followed by the dissolution of that business.

    ======%%%======

    I go by what you actually type. Go back and read your post, you referred to my opinion.

    I referred to the official records, reallity trumps what a rival group of supporters think or want something to be.

    I get the moral argument but the legal interpretation that is adopted by the authorities is in the end, the black and white of it. Those who strongly disagree will very much be on the periphery and even the clubs they support are and will continue to throw a deefie in their general direction.

    Maybe we can start up groups who don't accept football results because they thought the officials were homers or a mistaken offside decision that won a League Cup Final……Naw, what is official is official or the game is the preverbial bogey. 

    Going further, if say a Celtic supporter feels strongly on the subject, how can he continue to justify financially contributing to the PLC that doesn't only not share that view, but actually patronises it.


  53. Paddy

    The examples you posted show Peter doing exactly what I stated regards scale of influence and ‘friends’. 

    The fixture list (1st OF) being a good example. How things turned out only goes to show not even Peter can get everthing right.

    Whilst on the man himself, I note that Neil Lennon said that Peter and the board fully support the job he is doing. I can only hope that is true #NLmustSTAY

     


  54.  

    paddy malarkey 27th October 2020 at 17:27

     He/she is alright really, just needs guidance. I don’t have a problem with CEO’s pushing for what’s best for their clubs and realise this impacts on others, but to me it’s the thinking that when RFC were a big club, they acted in a certain way and can’t see that things can be done differently. And the assumption that we share the same level of paranoia. If your club had been liquidated and you felt guilt because you hadn’t done your utmost to prevent it, you may also be looking for a Svengali to blame it all on.  So why not blame Peter Lawwell   –  distracts from your own culpability. 

    ====%%%===

    Peter and the PLC are on the black and white reality side of the the subject and don’t agree with the general stance on SFM. 

    I’m just a fan posting on a fans forum, it’s Peter and the PLC who are your real meaningful enemy…. I’m curious as to why many want to defend him.

     


  55. I am not aware of supporters of other teams congratulating their rivals on achievements/trophy victories in any case, so frankly whether dunfermline, hearts, aberdeen fans recognise Sevco as rangers or vice versa, title no 1 or title no 55 is irrelevant.

    Focus should not be lost on the OFFICIAL status of what occurred in 2012 when Sevco was born.

    That is what matters. Football is a game, games are based on rules, rules are determined by governing bodies. THEY matter here. 

    UEFA, the SFA, the SPFL. They should NEVER be allowed off the hook.

    Not an inch should be given in that battle if fairness and integrity within our game are to mean anything.


  56. Brian

    Focus on 2012 continues unabated on SFM. That is up to the posters and moderation on here. I’m not trying to stop them, I’d be onto plumbs. 

    Generally, IMO, there is relatively little interest or intense scrutiny of what the governing bodies get up to in more recent times on here, unless it involves Rangers. Posters seem to think that focus on the most influential and powerful individual currently in the Scottish game is somehow some deflectionary tactic. Deflecting from 2012 maybe but what about today ? Easyjambo got it spot-on with his observation regards the viewing of everything through the “TRFC prism”.

    Regards Rangers, what I think will happen is that you’ll have a general, overarching and increasingly accepted reality with increasingly smaller protest groups making their points without much attention being paid to them. What may be louder are fotball chants/songs at games.

    I’d imagine that if/when Rangers win their next trophy, there will be groups of mostly Celtic supporters making it their job to publicly bring up their version of  2012 as loudly as they can. Overtime and if more trophies were to follow, these efforts would dissapate.

     

    You talk of fairness and integrity within our game, that is long gone. Neoliberal economics was IMO, the root factor.

     

     

     


  57. Homunculus 25th October 2020 at 11:23

    Charles Green came up with “… it is the holding company which is being liquidated, not the club” lie. The holding company was Wavetower. He did this after saying that liquidation meant that the club died, when he was desperately trying to avoid it.
    …………….
    He also did this when only 250 season tickets were sold and was faced with a nightmare of bankruptcy. Green standing in line handing out cups of tea is all that an ibrox fan base should have needed to see to realise it was all just a con. But so desperate not to be accused of standing by and letting there club die it was, two lunps of sugar for me charles and no milk.Charles was later found laughing all the way to France.


  58. reasonablechap 28th October 2020 at 08:10

    ______________________________________

    It's more than a little ironic that you're supposedly correcting me on a matter which you have simply misunderstood, whether deliberately or otherwise.

    If you read through my posts you will see a common thread, which is that, for the purposes of financial expediency such as broadcasting and other commercial contracts, the club currently playing out of Ibrox is BEING TREATED AS IF it was the original defunct club by the football authorities, such as UEFA. I really don't know how to make the facts any clearer than that.

    You've referenced UEFA in an attempt to provide some kind of legitimacy to the sleight of hand whilst being well aware that UEFA's head of club licencing, Andrea Traverso, made abundantly clear that post-liquidation Rangers is a new club, not just because he mentioned a new club/company, but because he specified unambiguously in the same statement that the club went into administration, not any fictional operating or holding company.

    “As a consequence of decisions taken in 2012 as well as the administration of the club the events/measures that followed (including the new club/company being ineligible to apply for a licence to participate in UEFA competitions for three seasons), there is no need for UEFA to investigate this matter any further since the club was not granted a licence to participate in the 2012/13 UEFA club competitions, the new club/company entered the fourth tier of Scottish Football and it was not able to play in UEFA competitions for the next three years in any event.

    Many thanks for taking note of the above position of UEFA.”

    UEFA's subsequent stance of TREATING A NEW CLUB AS IF IT WAS A DEFUNCT ONE mirrors that of the Scottish football authorities. The SFA's website reflects the financial and commercial need to pretend Rangers FC survived liquidation, yet nobody in authority at the governing body has ever confirmed they did.

    The fact is that you and I hold more similar views of 'the Rangers saga' than might appear obvious, as was evident by your acknowledgement that you get the moral argument. Where we part company is when you say that all that matters to you is what you creatively describe as "the legal interpretation adopted by the authorities". That's certainly not the phrase that would first spring to my mind when referring to a scam, pretence, con, fraud, swindle, hoax, racket, lie or deception.

    That divergence in moral compasses continues with your inability to admit that everybody outside your support (and those with vested interests) knows full well what happened back in 2012. As I said earlier, your eagerness to 'convert' opinion belies your claim that our view of your defunct club amounts to insignificance. I don't intend to respond any further because, as other posters have rightly pointed out, doing so will just prolong your stay here.

     


  59. Highlander

    Well done – you’ll feel the better for it!

    I no longer comment on the specifics of RC posts (I’m sure he loves being referred to in that manner!), but must admit I find them intriguing from a psychological perspective – so I still read them – as it helps me understand mental health. This is useful in my daily work, and would make a good case study methinks.

    Not exactly the primary purpose of this blog, but there ye go! Not responding to his comments is particularly good for my soul and self-discipline.

    Accordingly, I hope he ( or possibly she, as paddy points out) continues to post.


  60. Hmm…

    We saw recently that demolition work had started next to Ibrox, with new facilities being built in time for the ever more frequently quoted "150 years anniversary celebrations".

    I'm sure that during 2022 around Ibrox there will be loud proclamations about "150", and the SMSM will undoubtedly be full of 'souvenir pullouts' etc.

    It could be a bit embarrassing though if non-TRFC fans are also loudly, STILL, harping on about that 'little bit of bother' at Ibrox, way, way back in history: 10 years ago…  indecision

    I suppose those at Ibrox would want to now ramp up counter PR to try and browbeat those 'nonbelievers' into silence, if not submission…in time for 2022?

    If you can't beat them with facts or reasoned argument, then revert to ad hominem attacks.

    It's only sad, retired, deluded, stuck in the past, jealous, bigoted, Rangers haters, etc.  who think that Rangers died in 2012.

    What every sane person witnessed in 2012 was a club meeting its eventual – and inevitable – fate for massive cheating over many years.  The club cheated ALL other clubs and supporters, HMRC / taxpayers, 200+ creditors, etc.

    The club lied routinely to all and sundry, not least to the SFA and SPL regarding undeclared, player payments via EBT's.

    That being said, I will agree that there has indeed been some continuation at Ibrox.

    The current Ibrox club's behaviour is consistent with its predecessor club;

    Lies then.

    Lies now.

    Lies forever!


  61. StevieBC 28th October 2020 at 11:41

    '…The club lied routinely to all and sundry, not least to the SFA and SPL regarding undeclared, player payments via EBT's.

    That being said, I will agree that there has indeed been some continuation at Ibrox.'

    """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    And the liars in the SFA and the then SPL/SFL and the now SPFL continue to lie!

    They are morally incapable, because stubbornly unwilling, of getting themselves out of the mire of deceit and the destruction of their own personal integrity as well as the Integrity of the sport.

    There is a beautiful irony in the fact that their carefully crafted and cynically calculated greed-led deceit may  be met  by blind retribution in the shape of a wee bug that their lies have no defence against, as in some kind of Greek tragedy! ( the old Greek playwrights were on to something on that theme!)

    Few people mourn the death of master liars Goebbels or Adolph.

    I for one will not mourn the death of those clubs principally involved in the corrupt acceptance of the 'Big Lie'. 

    I will call it 'condign punishment', or more simply, 'hell mend them' for participating in such an insulting fraud!!

     


  62. reasonablechap

    28th October 2020 at 08:40

    Peter and the PLC are on the black and white reality side of the the subject and don’t agree with the general stance on SFM.

    What exactly is the black and white reality side of the subject to which you refer ? I haven't a clue what that means. It appears, though, that you've been in contact with the great man to solicit his and the PLC's views on the stance taken by SFM ( I must have missed the email asking my view ). As for defending him, he's nothing to me, but when your continually try to  foist your fevered paranoia on the blog , you're bound to meet resistence . Can we leave it at some people liking him, some not, and most not caring ? 


  63. reasonablechap

    Can I ask why you think I would perceive anybody, let alone Peter Lawwell , as an enemy ? To me, he's a guy doing his job. It may be that he does it well enough raise your bile , but at worst he's just another player in a corrupt game . 


  64. Can I just say as a Celtic supporter I really hope both Peter Lawwell and Neil Lennon stay in post.

    I believe Peter Lawwell does a really good job running the business side of the club and if I remember correctly we have won every domestic trophy since Neil Lennon's return to the manager's role.

    They are both doing the best job they can for their employer, and are both successful at what they do. In fact I think it's difficult to see how they could have done better under the circumstances.


  65. Neil Lennon has done a tremendous job at Celtic. A glance at wikipedia tells me that he has a win percentage during his 2nd spell of 77% – which is incredible really. Brendan Rodgers returned a 70% figure.

    The unfortunate reality of social media is that where as once tempers and frustrations were aired to family and friends at home or in the pub, disappearing into the ether moments after being uttered, now things couldn’t be more different. A moment’s anger is expressed in a social media post that doesn’t just last for days/weeks/years, but sparks similar responses like the ignition of a fuse. 

    Mixed with the imminent demise of old media, who seize on any opportunity to stir publicity and controversy through click bait, and it is a poisonous cocktail.

    For all that, Neil’s fate rests on that old chestnut, results. Fixtures away from home to Lille, Aberdeen (albeit hampden), Hibs, Motherwell, Prague, Milan. It’s a horrendous run of difficult fixtures but, for that reason, could prove the making of a man not unaccustomed to answering critics.


  66. Step forward John Bruce (DR Hotline)

    "Celtic aren't going for 10. They are trying t stop 55" Whit!?

    Did I miss him on Mastermind – chosen topic Spout****?

    The Govan outfit he refers to are Sevco (later TRFC) – who are eight and a bit years old, and have never won a major Scottish trophy.


  67. In my inbox yesterday  was an email from the ICIJ (International Consortium of Investigative Journalists)

    Among other interesting stuff there is this : 
    "FRESH UK INQUIRY
    Prompted by the FinCEN Files, a powerful U.K. parliamentary committee has launched a new anti-money laundering inquiry tasked specifically with looking into the impact of our investigation, as well as examining Britain’s anti-money-laundering systems, corporate liability for economic crime, and the work of Companies House, the U.K.’s much-abused register of companies."

    I note the special reference  to Companies House as ' the much-abused register of companies' ( that is, abused by cheating lying directors/companies/plcs , rather than 'abused' by the likes of me for its  'Companies House does not verify the accuracy of the information filed')   [I know that that's not the fault of the civil servants , but of government, at which I direct my abuse!]

    What use is it to be given information that has not in any way been checked for truth? 

    Speaking personally, if it had not been for the 'Rangers' saga , I would have carried on in innocent belief that by and large the world of commerce and business, a world in which businessmen are pleased to be able to describe their occupation as 'Company director' because it carries some kind of social cachet, was inherently honest, and that 'directors' as dodgy as small-fry spivs like 'Del boys and 'Boycies' were soon rooted out and exposed! 

    I was very naive before 2012.

    The really annoying thing is that even when such types are exposed, the FCA seems to be very very reluctant to  get them 'criminalised'. 

    I have no great hopes that 'a powerful U.K. parliamentary committee' will in the end effect any significant extra powers being given  to  CH. 

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