Fergus McCann v David Murray

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How Celtic Turned the Tables on their Glasgow Rivals by Stephen O Donnell:
A Review by Auldheid.

Stephen’s previous publication, Tangled Up In Blue provided a detailed history of the rise and fall of Glasgow Rangers FC PLC from 1872 until their demise in 2012. Clearly a lot of research had been done to cover the period in such detail and his follow up publication Fergus McCann v David Murray etc carries on with that tradition. It is a smorgasbord of a book with many different issues succulently served up in its 350 pages.

It tells of events under David Murray’s tenure at Ibrox which began in November 1988 and ended in May 2011 when he left Craig Whyte holding the rope that became a noose just under a year later in April 2012 when Whyte was found guilty of bringing Scottish football into disrepute whilst Murray claimed he was duped.

Readers of the book will come to the conclusion that if anyone did the duping it was David Murray and it wasn’t just Craig Whyte he duped but Scotland’s national game. If ever Murray were to be tried for crimes against Scottish football then this book would be cited as evidence.

It was against the background of David Murray’s tenure at Rangers that Fergus McCann first arrived on the scene in April 1989 with proposals to inject £17M of New Capital into Celtic that the Celtic Board rejected as per minutes:

Proposals put forward by Fergus McCann to provide finance for various capital expenditures were unanimously rejected by the Directors’; and then again in August of the same year: ‘Mr McCann’s latest proposals were discussed and it was hoped that this was a final discussion on the subject. Latest proposals were rejected by Directors.
Fergus later returned to the fray and the chapter on how he was successful in ousting the Board in 1994 is an informative read, particularly if in that period single parenting cares took precedence over caring for Celtic.

I was amused reading the tale of discontent aimed at the old Board after a Ne’erday 4-2 defeat to Rangers in January 1994 when a bemused Walter Smith was watching the hostility aimed at the Celtic Directors box, one fan in the main stand screamed at him, ‘What are you looking at, it’s got fuck all to do with you.”

For me anyway there were a few “not a lot of people know that” moments like that in the book.
The contrast between Fergus McCann’s and David Murray’s style was immediately evident, but the impact of Fergus’s shorter tenure from 1994 to 1999 became more than evident after McCann left and the author does not miss the role servile journalists played and hit the wall for turning Celtic supporters against McCann during his tenure, whilst they dined on Murray’s succulent lamb. A role that in the end helped bring about Rangers end, but not the culture of servility when covering the activity of Rangers FC PLC successor club from 2012.

Sky TV get it in the neck too and if David Murray played the part of Colonel Mustard in killing Scottish football through his financial recklessness and duplicity, Sky are the lead pipe whose toxicity still dictates the nature of the current state of play.( I said it was a Smorgasbord)

Fergus kind of did what it said on the tin. In his case a tin of nippy sweeties, but it was interesting to read about his early years when even then he was described as “a cheeky upstart” but his “idiosyncrasies” and appearance under a bunnet, disguised a sharp if impatient business mind where for him getting straight to the point was akin to procrastination.

So too has Murray’s early years been covered including his rejected attempt to buy Ayr Utd, a rejection by Ayr Directors, who considered Murray was too hot headed and most volatile, that infuriated him.

Their conclusion that he was trying to get Ayr United on the cheap with only £125k of his own money involved was an indicator of his strategy of using other people’s money to invest and not his own. Other people including unsuspecting taxpayers to a tune of £50 million or so.

As you follow the narrative of both Fergus McCann and David Murray and the events that surrounded them, you end up wondering how so many could have been fooled for so long by one guy, but when you have the Scottish media in your pocket it was difficult to separate fact from fiction during the tenure of both. You also wonder how Murray remains a Knight of the Realm since.

Luckily for Celtic Fergus knew business fact from PR fiction and avoided the illusion in which Celtic’s main rivals continue to struggle to this day.

The great pity is that few, if any of the Scottish main stream media will even give this book a mention, because if you don’t write about it, it never happened, except it did and this book is proof.

I therefore recommend anyone interested in the future of our game buys it and asks, is it not now time to revisit the purpose of Scottish football?

Auldheid

1240 COMMENTS

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  1. reasonablechap 10th November 2020 at 10:39
    Some will say Celtic are on 8.75IAR but the real world has deemed it to be 9. However much rival supporters convince themselves of the former.
    …………….
    If the same rival supporters whant to convince themselves of the former They lost Any opportunity to lobby against it when their board agreed it was 9 in a row.


  2. StevieBC 10th November 2020 at 13:17

    “Moving on” means;
    ……………..
    Forget all those creditors the rangers football club left out of pocket.(Including the Ambulance service and hospitals) Forget all those poor debenture seat holders who thought they had a seat for life (God that must really hurt them the most trying to pretend it is the same club)or do this band of hearty supporters stear clear of that one?Forget the use of EBTs and the side letters and the trying to remove side letters. Forget that they forgot to even say sorry.


  3. The lies and deceit

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/powerbrokers-have-known-of-rangers-ebts-for-years-1327563

    The shenanigans which caused the collapse of Rangers are scandalous but, when you blow away myth and fantasy, an immense stretch of the imagination is required to declare Rangers cheated anyone. EBTs were not illegal in the 10 years Rangers used them and both the SFA and SPL were fully aware of them.

    They were never hidden and always declared in the audited accounts under the term Remuneration Trust.

     

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-ebt-row-sfa-snub-11130822

    Rangers oldco were fined £250,000 by Lord Nimmo Smith for the deliberate non-disclosure of the EBT payments to players but, crucially, he decided there was no sporting advantage.The Nimmo Smith report said that while EBTs were not illegal, Rangers broke rules aimed at ensuring financial transparency in football by not disclosing them to the game’s governing bodies.


  4. Jingso.Jimsie 10th November 2020 at 16:07

    '…Have we decided who played Brechin City on 29/07/12 yet? "

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    Who can forget this lying piece of nonsense from the perverted Governance bodies of Scottish Football?

    "The Scottish Football League announced that agreement had been reached following weeks of discussions, releasing a statement on behalf of the three football authorities, while the Ibrox club also announced they had signed an agreement. The SFL, SFA and Scottish Premier League statement read: "We are pleased to confirm that agreement has been reached on all outstanding points relating to the transfer of the Scottish FA membership between Rangers FC (In Administration) and Sevco Scotland Ltd, who will be the new owners of The Rangers Football Club.

    A conditional membership will be issued to Sevco Scotland Ltd today, allowing Sunday's Ramsdens Cup tie against Brechin City to go ahead."

    from  https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/jul/27/rangers-relaunched-brechin

    (The 8th Circle of Dante's " Inferno "is reserved for liars and fraudsters, and, in my opinion, is not hot enough for the disgusting wretches!)

     


  5. bigboab1916 10th November 2020 at 16:44
    ……………
    The same week we had charles Green calling the commission a mickey mouse event.Alistair johnstone claiming gers did not cheat. The BBC have got it in for rangers. The secret dossiers ( yes even back then we had dossier gate)Players who had EBTs claiming they had never heard of them ( they work in radio now). A share issue on the horizon to cover over a lot of news and a drop of registration embargo to top it all off


  6. bigboab1916 10th November 2020 at 16:44

    "..The lies and deceit.."

    """""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    Yes, indeed, bigboab!

    In the extract to which you provide a helpful link, ( from the DR of 17 September 2012) James Traynor ( whose extraordinary reversal of view scarcely makes him the George Washington of reporters!) says 

    "EBTs were not illegal in the 10 years Rangers used them and both the SFA and SPL were fully aware of them."

    In the accounts the reference to Trusts is :" The rangers Employee Benefit tust and Murray Group Management  Ltd Remuneration trust were established to provide incentives to certain employees"

    ( see Accounts from 2001 ) 

    Those entries hardly constitute the full picture!

    Instead, they provide a damning indictment of the officers  at the SFA in their failure either to explore what these trusts meant in the light of the wages bill or in their wilful choice not to investigate, and the connections between personnel in the SFA and  previous employment with the then RFC plc.

    The trouble with SDM's cheating , and with lying generally is that  it causes others to cheat-either by not investigating out of sympathy with the lies or by covering undiclosed payments ( and side-letters) when the truth was known.

    Oh, how 2012 seems just like yesterday as the liars wriggled and twisted and threatened and blustered!

    None of them will go to their graves as men of honour, no matter how many more wretched years they live.


  7. Saying EBTs were not illegal was like saying taking money out of a bank was not illegal.

    If you take money which you are entitled to, under the rules, then it is not illegal.

    If you take money you are not entitled to, by deception, that is an entirely different scenario.

    Rangers did not use EBTs as they were intended, even if they had done it would not have worked.

    The Supreme Court has made it quite clear, disguised remuneration does not allow the non-payment of tax on that remuneration. They did it in relation to the Rangers EBT case, it now applies to all disguised remuneration. Given that the judgement is from the highest Court in the UK anyone disagreeing with that position is just making noise. 

    Like I said even if Rangers had used EBTs as they were originally designed (discretionary non contractual payment) which they clearly failed to do, they still don't work.

    Basically Rangers failed to properly implement a scheme designed to avoid tax, which doesn't work anyway. 


  8. bigboab1916 10th November 2020 at 16:44

    The lies and deceit

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/powerbrokers-have-known-of-rangers-ebts-for-years-1327563
    …………
    Rangers shut them down when the law changed in 2010 and also at that time it was said the club had been operating a dual-contract system in relation to the EBT. The SFA contacted Rangers and asked for an explanation, which was given.
    …………………
    I believe craig whyte shut them down when he took over, later to claim in his book
    club’s use of EBT’s in the David Murray era was “cheating” and the SFA were “clueless” in cracking down on it.
    And at the craig whyte trial Dave King said EBTs were “possibly unlawful”
    ……………………..
    This part you have to laugh.
    SFA contacted Rangers and asked for an explanation, which was given.
    SFA. Are you operating your EBTs in an unlawfull way?
    Rangers. No.
    SFA. Ok cheers.


  9. JC @1732

    “…the SFA… failure either to explore what these trusts meant in the light of the wages bill or in their wilful choice not to investigate, and the connections between personnel in the SFA and previous employment with the then RFC plc…”

    =============

    It’s amazing what details were simply brushed aside – because there were so many lies, secrecy, inconsistencies swirling around both Ibrox and Hampden around 2011 and 2012 in particular, it just got lost in the noise.

    WRT personnel;

    The ex-RFC Director, our old foe – and EBT recipient himself! – Campbell Ogilvie was both a VP and President at the SFA over a lengthy 12 year period: 2003 to 2015.

    The ex-RFC player Gordon Smith was the ‘surprise’ SFA CEO President during this period too: 2007 to 2010.  Afterwards he returned to Ibrox as a Director for Craig Whyte.

    So, ‘conflict of interest’ or avoiding a perception of bias, or recruitment ‘diversity’ didn’t seem to apply to SFA senior positions.

    The SFA CEO and [First] President who had obvious Rangers FC loyalties were both in position during the period 2007 to 2010.

    Coincidentally, Murray decided to wind down the EBT’s at Ibrox by 2010… 🙁

    And the more you look back, the more you remember incidents or stories which were simply ignored by the SMSM.

    The ‘Motherwell Born Billionaire’ boll#x was just the start of the altered reality inhabited by Ibrox supporters, Hampden and the negligent SMSM.

    That altered reality today involves an upcoming ‘150th’ anniversary – and ‘going for 55’.


  10. Jingso.Jimsie 10th November 2020 at 16:07

    ‘…Have we decided who played Brechin City on 29/07/12 yet? ”

     

    The words of the legally binding 5 way agreement that relate to that question:

    “Pending Completion, the SFA confirm it has granted Sevco conditional Full Membership of the SFA to facilitate the playing of matches by Rangers FC for the period until midnight on 3rd August 2012. In the event that the transfer of the RFC Share to Dundee FC has not been registered by the SPL by that time, then this Agreement will automatically lapse and the arrangements set out herein will not come into effect; Sevco’s conditional Full Membership of the SFA will automatically lapse; and all player registrations held by the SFA will revert to RFC and Sevco’s interest will be cancelled.”

     

    The above seems to conflict with the fact journalists were being briefed to refer to the club taking the field vs Brechin as “The Rangers”, not just Rangers. One of “the five” broke ranks perhaps? 

    Also we know Sevco had to effectively ask permission from Duff & Phelps to allow the “loan” of players for the Brechin game, given Sevco had none themselves.

    Whole thing was a fudge.


  11.  

    Rangers: Kelty anger after testimonial is called off

    Last updated on

    23 July 201223 July 2012.From the section Football

    Kelty Hearts have criticised the Scottish FA after the Fife juniors were forced to postpone a pre-season friendly against the new Rangers.

    The Ibrox outfit were unable to play because the SFA has yet to approve the club’s membership.

    “So a thanks must go to the SFA for having a negative impact on not only the top end of Scottish football but the lower end also,” said Kelty.

    The testimonial game for an experienced Kely midfielder will be re-arranged.

     

     

    Ally McCoist’s side have only played games behind closed doors at their Murray Park training ground as they are not licensed to play official fixtures.

    They are due to play their first game of the season, against Brechin City in the Ramsdens Cup, on Saturday.

    But they are still in negotiations with the SFA, Scottish Premier League and Scottish Football League about the conditions for membership after they were denied a place in the top flight and placed in Division Three.

    How the media can face themselves in the morning as they get their uniform on and make ready for another shift in the press room.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     


  12. Quite an onslaught !!

    Time for me to leave the 2012 bubble and let you all agree with each other (but not be heard out in the real world).

    I can only echo what Easyjambo was getting at. That SFM doesn’t achieve what it says on the tin because next to everything is viewed through the Blue Prism. 

    Basically, your war was lost and failure to take that on board, not only clouds your general take on more current events, it means some don’t even see some of them go by. I reckon John Clark could convert a discussion on Mongolian fine art into the familiar 10 paragraph delivery

    I’m not saying you should change your opinion or even listen to me, perhaps look at Easyjambo, a practical, reasonable and as objective a fan as you’ll get. Even if it is only for a couple of seconds, before you go back to 2012.

    One thing before I go and that we can agree on….
    Good luck to Scotland on Thursday !!

     

     


  13. Quick addition to the earlier post (half way down).

    Basically, your war was lost (there were no winners) and failure…..


  14. brian_d84 10th November 2020 at 20:59
    And the more you look back, the more you remember incidents or stories which were simply ignored by the SMSM.
    ………………….
    And the more you look back you see the pleading by charles Green the ibrox fan base Duff and phelps to get a CVA over the line to preserve that history.
    Then Bang!
    No CVA
    Did not need it.charles Green pays less, the ibrox fan base are told to put away their red cards. Duff and phelps claim they were a success even though they could not bring the club out of administration. The SFA and SPL start bringing out 5 way agreements and conditional memberships and are happy to go along with the ride and collect their bonuses.
    Only thing left is the poor fan base having to put up with the ridicule of pretending they never lost their debenture seats, they never held up red cards against liquidation, they never cried when they realised a CVA was not going to get over the line, they never hailed Green as a saviour, yet on this day could not look at the man.
    The more you look back, what a Red neck for the ibrox fan base. Must be the reason they want to move on and never look back.


  15. Is it safe to come out now? Has he really left the building? If so, he’ll soon be back in another iteration, just like the clubs playing out of Ibrox.

    Perhaps after lecturing us on how we are failing to persuade the ‘real world’ of our message, Reasonable Chap’s off to get an irony by-pass, having failed to convert one solitary person to his flat-earthism during his frequent interventions on here.

    To be fair though, he got one thing spot on when he said: “I’m not saying you should change your opinion or even listen to me”.

    His penultimate post has me looking forward to John Clark’s evening post tonight, where apparently he’ll be discussing the parallels between Genghis Khan’s rampage through Asia and the football authorities’ bull in a China shop treatment of Rangers’ death, a story which he’s got off to a fine art. 


  16. reasonablechap 11th November 2020 at 08:29

    "One thing before I go and that we can agree on….
    Good luck to Scotland on Thursday !!"

    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    There you go again, making false statements. I for one, do not wish good luck to Scotland on Thursday.

     

    While trough-gorging, deliberately deceitful, morally bankrupt charlatans like Petrie, Doncaster et al continue to pollute the offices at Hampden, I only want to see failure for the national team, reflecting their incompetence. I mean no ill to the manager or players involved, but the very thought of Petrie's gravy-stained chin grinning at me as Scotland take the field at a major championships, turns my stomach.

     

    C'mon Serbia! 


  17. reasonablechap 11th November 2020 at 08:29

    Quite an onslaught !!

    Time for me to leave the 2012 bubble and let you all agree with each other (but not be heard out in the real world).”

     

    If you call going back to which will be in your case reading soothing stories of moonbeams, promises and fantasies the real world, you really are part of the problem.

    For to read what you know is 100% Bullshit when certain topics are avoided makes you no different from the storyteller, to allow untruths you know of to filter your brain and for you to live in the lie is the biggest concern to all.

    Not to call out what you know is not true is the greatest insult you can impose on your family and friends when confronting them and passing on the lie.

    The Trueman show may have been made in Hollywood, but the storyline is no different from  the fans who follow faithfully whilst spoonfed sh*t and convince themselves that 2012 was just a dream.

    Charles Green has just almost cleaned the Scottish Government and taxpayer for 20 million pounds ( maybe less in a settlement plus costs), on that note hope you can sleep easy in your wonderland.

    Maybe see you around and if so remember this, a lie will always be a lie regardless what year it has stamped on its creation and the truth will always be the truth and has no time stamp and will never go out of date as long as people are alive to bring it out in the open.

    People like you created the uneven playing field which is still in existence, this will probably remain in place whilst people like you keep it alive and feed the manipulators who run the game to suit their own agendas.
    And, yes, some could not care less about the Scotland Football team and its results, and the reason for it is understandable, for the association that is behind it, is the same association who created the myth and created the lie in the beginning, so why would any rational thinking person support that and wish to see it suceed, for what gain would it bring to the fans, nothing.


  18. reasonablechap 11th November 2020 at 09:48

    "..Quick addition to the earlier post (half way down).

    Basically, your war was lost (there were no winners) "

    """""""""""""""""""""""

    How apposite is the reference to 'war' on this Remembrance Day!

    Forefront in our minds are the sacrifices of millions of decent people in the struggle for Truth in its fight against the Lies of the  Nazi 'Third Reich'

    That struggle was won, at huge cost in terms of human suffering. 

    Truth will always win in the end.

    The lies of the petty little men in Scottish football governance  do not cease to be lies simply because so many choose not to challenge them ( the Nazi part had plenty of supporters) or because their effect on us [the destruction of Sporting Integrity in Scottish Football] can in no way be compared to the horrific effects of the Nazi lies: we are not being rounded  up for imprisonment or extermination. 

    Nevertheless, when men in offices of Trust are prepared to lie  in the trivial matter of Sport, one wonders just to what levels of untruth and betrayal of trust their weakness might lead them to if something more than sport were involved.

    The guilty men know what we all know: Rangers Football Club that was founded in 1873(or maybe 1872?) entered Liquidation , its principal assets having been sold off dirt cheap by Administrators who failed to find a buyer prepared to pay all the debts to buy the Club and bring it out of Administration.

    That club is still In Liquidation.

    The new football club that was granted admission to the SFL and to membership of the SFA in 2012 is not, and cannot possibly be, that same club now called RFC 2012 that is in Liquidation.

    Adolf Hitler at the peak  of his satanic power would not be able , spit and foam at the mouth as he might, to alter that Truth.

    Neither can the Scottish Football Authorities nor the Board of the RIFC plc, however much they play with words.

    There will always be people like me around to remind them of their lies.

     


  19. The recently exited poster could have inadvertently raised a perfectly valid observation.

    If a footy supporter – of any of the 42 clubs – only gets his footy news from the SMSM – and actually believes what they read in the papers or hear on Radio Clyde or on the BBC… 

    then that supporter won’t have a Scooby about what happened in 2012 – and since. 

    They probably won’t think too much about the difference between Rangers FC (1872) and The Rangers (2012) either.

    And that’s EXACTLY what the Ibrox club will try to reinforce during the ‘140 10’ Anniversary year of 2022.

    IMO, 2022 could be the last chance to force some truth – and even an attempt at atonement / reconciliation of sorts – from BOTH Ibrox and Hampden.

    I know that sounds as likely as Scotland playing positive, expressive, silky, winning footy tomorrow, but…

    IF TRFC gets through 2022 ‘celebrations’ with the full, vocal support from the SMSM – and with the complicit silence from Hampden AND all the other 41 clubs…

    THEN, there will simply always be a serious lack of trust and respect in the Scottish game, IMO.


  20. StevieBC 11th November 2020 at 18:35
    If a footy supporter – of any of the 42 clubs – only gets his footy news from the SMSM – and actually believes what they read in the papers or hear on Radio Clyde or on the BBC…

    then that supporter won’t have a Scooby about what happened in 2012 – and since.

    They probably won’t think too much about the difference between Rangers FC (1872) and The Rangers (2012) either.
    IMO, 2022 could be the last chance to force some truth – and even an attempt at atonement / reconciliation of sorts – from BOTH Ibrox and Hampden.
    IF TRFC gets through 2022 ‘celebrations’ with the full, vocal support from the SMSM – and with the complicit silence from Hampden AND all the other 41 clubs…
    ………..
    I believe The recently exited posters favorite friend Peter Lawwell put it best.
    At Celtic’s agm, Lawwell was asked by a supporter from the floor about the reporting of Rangers in the media as a club founded in 1872, rather than a new club following liquidation last summer. The Celtic chief replied drily: “Rory Bremner can pretend to be Tony Blair”


  21. I'm really not sure that this is the appropriate forum for discussing April Ashley sad

    Google the name for an explanation indecision


  22. Mikey 12th November 2020 at 02:03

    '..I'm really not sure that this is the appropriate forum for discussing April Ashley'

    """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    Ha,ha, Mikey. Good one. I'm glad I googled: it's too early in the day to look again at the SDI stuff!broken heart


  23. normanbatesmumfc 11th November 2020 at 16:11

    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    There you go again, making false statements. I for one, do not wish good luck to Scotland on Thursday.

    While trough-gorging, deliberately deceitful, morally bankrupt charlatans like Petrie, Doncaster et al continue to pollute the offices at Hampden, I only want to see failure for the national team, reflecting their incompetence. I mean no ill to the manager or players involved, but the very thought of Petrie's gravy-stained chin grinning at me as Scotland take the field at a major championships, turns my stomach.

    C'mon Serbia! 

    —————————???—————————–

    Saw this post earlier and thought wtf!! Mind you I have seen similar stuff from other Celtic minded posters on here. Frankly it disgusts me! However the blazers behave (including Mr Lawwell) I for one will always support Scotland on the field of play. Great performance tonight by all players and you only had to see and hear the emotional interviews from the players (Ryan Christie, David Marshall, Andy Robertson etc, etc) to realise how much this meant to them. Fantastic. 

    I have had a few drams but you should be feckin ashamed of yourself. As JC would say (sorry for borrowing) BAD CESS to you.


  24. bordersdon 12th November 2020 at 23:33

    '..However the blazers behave..'

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    You're absolutely right in making the distinction between the heroes on the field of play and the rottenness of the Governance of the sport in which they individually performed superbly. 

    It is annoying , however, that the superb performance of Steve Clarke and his team profits scoundrels and liars!

    That's the position that the lying bast.rds have tried to put us in: ' if you support a Scotland national team, you must support us!'

    Not so, of course.

    The success of tonight's team is in no way an endorsement of the lying Governance body, who will use it as some kind of validation that they are honest brokers in the administration of Scottish Football.

    Which we know, of course, is not the case.

     

     

     


  25. bordersdon 12th November 2020 at 23:33

    normanbatesmumfc 11th November 2020 at 16:11

    Frankly it disgusts me! However the blazers behave (including Mr Lawwell) I for one will always support Scotland on the field of play. Great performance tonight by all players and you only had to see and hear the emotional interviews from the players (Ryan Christie, David Marshall, Andy Robertson etc, etc) to realise how much this meant to them. Fantastic."

    Because the players celebrate and show how much it means to them that they will be going to a tournament, does not erase the fact that the organisation they play for left the sour taste in some of the fans mouth, and some of those fans walked away in the believe that it is morally wrong to indulge in the myth that the association had the fans best interest at heart when they rigged the game, rigged agreements, to give priorites and allowed a myth to be created and still do.

    So if some fans would like to see Scotlands national team fall flat on it's asre then the question of why that might be so has to be addressed and if it was to be so and done in a proper manner with all cards laid on the table, then a lot more it might be found might simply also walk away.

    A group of players showing a highly charged emotion does not mean people who see what underlies have to be to feel guilty for refusing tobe  part in the charade, the nation wishes the footballers and management well, but nothing changes and completes the damages done until the truth is out and the replacements and new beginning starts, and in that all within and included in sport at all levels are been treated equal in the name of integrity, from now until the tournament all the previous frauds and tax dodgers and secret agreement members will be rolled out and invited onto the gravy train once again to feed the masses more of the same.

    Look forward to the sheniggans of the cups of tea and ticket prices hike for the venues, all been well with covid19.

     

     


  26. A straight forward question, ideally for the legal minds on the site: in what sense can a limited company (for example Company no. SC425159, incorporated on 29th May 2012) claim to have existed prior to its date of incorporation?

    Asking for a friend…


  27. Cluster One 13th November 2020 at 12:45

    "..How can we move on from the events of 2012 when the ripples can still be felt on this day'

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    Mention of legal things prompts this post.

    From the Rolls of the Court of Session

    "Wednesday 18th November

    LORD TYRE – T Sadler, Clerk

     By Order
    between 9.00am and 10.00am

     CA9/20 David Whitehouse v The Chief Constable of Police Scotland &c  "

    Separately, Cluster One, your link to the resurrection of interest in the 'Charlotte Fakes' stuff is interesting. The few bits and pieces that I 'saved' from those that were  posted on the RTC blog at the time were great fun to read, giving  a picture of first name 'chumminess' masking deep distrust between some of the 'chums'

    Some day whoever(I know who)  now has them ( apart from the Crown Office) might feel free to release all that he has: there might be a reasonably profitable book in it, to be published on the day on which the 150th(149th?) anniversary of the birth of RFC of 1872(73?) and the 10th/11th anniversary of that club's death in 2012.broken heart

    It would be lovely to see what other draft statements or letters etc might have been  sent from the SFA to 'Rangers' for editing and redrafting and seeking their permission to release to the Press.


  28. An observation from last night's game.

     

    Not only was their goalscorer unmarked, I noticed that there was nobody on the back post at the corner.

    Had someone been there, there was a good chance that they would have cleared it.

    Now, roll forward half an hour and into the second last min of extra time.

    Serbia get a corner and again nobody was on the back post.

    Is this a typical Steve Clarke trait?

    Any Killie fans on here notice similar at Rugby Park when he was in charge.

     

    HS


  29. bordersdon 12th November 2020 at 23:33

    Logged in last night to see if there was any reaction to the game earlier.

    Just managing to log in now for a wee peruse.

    Must be the only site 'monitoring' Scottish Football not to acknowledge a result most people have been waiting for since 1998.

    Sadly, while I appreciate many folks on here (me included) do not have a particular liking for the SFA, it is this kind of thing that has probably turned many a contributor away from the site to the extent it now looks very much like a closed shop with limited appeal regarding the all the issues affecting the whole of Scottish Football.


  30. wottpi 13th November 2020 at 14:31

    Chill , buddy ! I phoned NHS 24 as I was feeling strange this morning . Apparently . I am suffering from euphoria and the thing to do is enjoy it . There might be a few in the same boat.


  31. wottpi 13th November 2020 at 14:31
    Logged in last night to see if there was any reaction to the game earlier.
    Must be the only site ‘monitoring’ Scottish Football not to acknowledge a result most people have been waiting for since 1998.
    ………………..
    Shock,or they were celebrating.


  32. brian_d84 13th November 2020 at 13:55

    I am not a "legal mind", however I suppose if it existed as a different type of legal entity.

    Say a partnership, which had existed for 20 years prior to it's incorporation.

    Whilst the limited company may only have existed from that date, that would not mean that it's achievement as a partnership would be lost. For example it's assets, contracts etc would probably still be there. 


  33. normanbatesmumfc 11th November 2020 at 16:11

    John Clark 13th November 2020 at 00:27John Clark 13th November 2020 at 00:27

    bigboab1916 13th November 2020 at 11:43

    Cluster One 13th November 2020 at 12:21

    —————————xxxx———————————

    Sorry guys much as I have no respect for the blazers (not only in the SFA/Spfl) I can’t agree that genuine football fans in Scotland should be other that delighted that our team have achieved what has been elusive for far too many years! Ryan Christie could not control his pride and delight and I am certain that he was typical. I could not control my delight and neither could all of my family. This site has become a single issue site only becoming alive when something IBROX is current. I post as a fervent believer in the cause of hitting against the cheats propagating the BIG LIE (and Celtic and my team were part of it) but can not nor will not let that dilute my support of the Scotland team. The fact that the Blazers will benefit from this is of course regrettable but Celtic supporters, in any numbers at least, will not abandon their team because the PLC are implicated in the BIG LIE. 

    wottpi 13th November 2020 at 14:31

    I agree entirely and am pretty much out. Disgusted!!

     


  34. bordersdon 13th November 2020 at 21:16

    'I post as a fervent believer in the cause of hitting against the cheats propagating the BIG LIE (and Celtic and my team were part of it) but can not nor will not let that dilute my support of the Scotland team'

    """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""

    Begging your pardon, bordersdon, my own post about the liars in governance profiting from the success of the national team does not in anyway, and was not intended in any way, to detract from the sublimity of the sporting achievement of the Scotland team.

    As I said, it's bloody annoying that a cheating governance board should benefit from the honest, heroic efforts of the guys on the pitch.

    The problem is that the liars in governance will try to legitimise themselves by the diversionary tactic of pointing to 'success'!

     

     

     


  35. John Clark 14th November 2020 at 00:40

    ————-xxx——————————————-

    Final word. But as we all know John the liars and cheats were put there and kept there by the clubs!!!


  36. I'm with you bordersdon.  I don't tune in often but came in yesterday to revel in the best Scottish fitba story for years, never mind 2020.  Nae support Scotland because, you know, the blazers?  What a joke! Like I should have stopped supporting the Dons because of Stewarty Milne? I don't think so. SFM is a one trick pony that I've backed for years (Donkey's years?) but this one club above all others has reached a new extreme IMO.

     

     


  37. ernie 14th November 2020 at 14:28

    I’m with you bordersdon. I don’t tune in often but came in yesterday to revel in the best Scottish fitba story for years, never mind 2020.
    …………………
    Why did you not post something yesterday and revel in the best scottish football story for years?


  38. Come on , lads and lassies . I follow Thistle and Scotland , home and ofttimes away  , and yes , we had a marvellous display and a belter of a result the other night . There's never much traffic on here during the International break – in fact , I looked back to this time last year when we beat Kazakhstan 3-1 at Hampden after going behind . Not a cheep from anybody about the end of the campaign , the lack of enthusiasm for the National team , our chances in the play-off , the difference that Stevie Clarke made compared to the charlatans who proceeded him – not one post . I didn't feel moved to post either , then or now , especially as the Scottish government seems happy to hijack the "feel good factor " while still demonising football and it's supporters . 


  39. paddy malarkey 14th November 2020 at 19:57
    in fact , I looked back to this time last year when we beat Kazakhstan 3-1 at Hampden after going behind . Not a cheep from anybody about the end of the campaign , the lack of enthusiasm for the National team , our chances in the play-off , the difference that Stevie Clarke made compared to the charlatans who proceeded him – not one post . I didn’t feel moved to post either
    …………….
    Putting things in perspective…..Not a cheep from anybody;-)


  40. paddy malarkey 14th November 2020 at 19:57

    I support Celtic and Scotland, though to be fair I haven't really supported Scotland very much financially, not having gone to many games. 

    I don't understand why anyone would want the national team to lose. I can understand people being apathetic about the whole thing, but to actually want them to lose makes no sense to me.

    Personally I watched the game, thought we should have won it in normal time, but was well chuffed when we won on penalties. 

    I'm really not sure why the team I support should make any difference to that. It's just great to see Scotland back in a major tournament again. The younger generation can now enjoy seeing us snatching defeat from the jaws of victory the way I have. 


  41. As quoted in 'The Scotsman' today from Serbian newspaper 'Nezavisne dnevne novine INFORMER' [Independent daily newspaper 'Informer']:

    "The Serbian media are …..bemoaning an absence from the European Championships that stretches back beyond the country's current inception to its previous days as part of Yugoslavia."

    The Serbia national team claiming the history Yugoslavia's national team? 

    The last remaining reference to Serbia/Yugoslavia was in April  1992, (by which time all the other countries that Tito had formed into the Communist republic of Yugoslvia had regained their independence) the remaining Serbia and Montenegro formed the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

    And in 2006 Montenegro and Serbia split into two different states.

    There hasn't been any kind of  'Yugoslavia' since then, any more than there has been a Rangers Football Club of 1872/(73?) since 2012!

    And I think we can say with absolute confidence that  the citizens of Croatia, Montenegro, Slovenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Macedonia would have had a wee quiet chuckle to themselves when they watched the game and (probably) applauded Scotland's victory, in the way that many of us are quietly pleased when England gets humped by anyone!

    ( is the 'Informer' guy/girl who wrote the piece from which I've quoted an honorary member of the SMSM? …'the country's current inception' indeed!) broken heart

    Honest to God!

    (And I've just been sent a link to Janey Godley's 'Nicola's' observations on the game. I am not one for profanities, but it is just fcukin' great: my sides are sore with laughing, and Mrs C, on the phone to her pal in Glasgow, is laughing so hard that she can  hardly describe and explain .)

     


  42. Homunculus 14th November 2020 at 22:15

    I could barely force myself to watch towards the end . Should have won it in 90 , should have lost it in 120 , and nice to be confident when penalties come as we haven't missed .  Yet !


  43. paddy malarkey 14th November 2020 at 22:34

    Absolutely. I thought we should have scored one or two more during the 90. The late goal seemed to give them a huge lift and have the opposite effect on us, neither is that surprising under the circumstances. 

    I think we deserved to go through, even if it was on penalties in the end. As you say it's strange going into those with a bit of confidence. I did think when Griffiths went on late it was with a view to him taking one. 


  44. Homunculus 14th November 2020 at 22:15

    '..The younger generation can now enjoy seeing us snatching defeat from the jaws of victory the way I have.'

    """""""""""""""""""""""

    That's surely a wee bit pessimistic, Homunculus! Surely!

    We wouldn't want any repetition of dear old Ally's optimism, God rest him, but we have qualified, and against some quite stiff opposition, with Serbia in particular being put to the pin of its collar in trying to defeat us!

    Steve Clarke is more Stein and Shankly than Ally!

     

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