How Celtic Turned the Tables on their Glasgow Rivals by Stephen O Donnell:
A Review by Auldheid.
Stephen’s previous publication, Tangled Up In Blue provided a detailed history of the rise and fall of Glasgow Rangers FC PLC from 1872 until their demise in 2012. Clearly a lot of research had been done to cover the period in such detail and his follow up publication Fergus McCann v David Murray etc carries on with that tradition. It is a smorgasbord of a book with many different issues succulently served up in its 350 pages.
It tells of events under David Murray’s tenure at Ibrox which began in November 1988 and ended in May 2011 when he left Craig Whyte holding the rope that became a noose just under a year later in April 2012 when Whyte was found guilty of bringing Scottish football into disrepute whilst Murray claimed he was duped.
Readers of the book will come to the conclusion that if anyone did the duping it was David Murray and it wasn’t just Craig Whyte he duped but Scotland’s national game. If ever Murray were to be tried for crimes against Scottish football then this book would be cited as evidence.
It was against the background of David Murray’s tenure at Rangers that Fergus McCann first arrived on the scene in April 1989 with proposals to inject £17M of New Capital into Celtic that the Celtic Board rejected as per minutes:
Proposals put forward by Fergus McCann to provide finance for various capital expenditures were unanimously rejected by the Directors’; and then again in August of the same year: ‘Mr McCann’s latest proposals were discussed and it was hoped that this was a final discussion on the subject. Latest proposals were rejected by Directors.
Fergus later returned to the fray and the chapter on how he was successful in ousting the Board in 1994 is an informative read, particularly if in that period single parenting cares took precedence over caring for Celtic.
I was amused reading the tale of discontent aimed at the old Board after a Ne’erday 4-2 defeat to Rangers in January 1994 when a bemused Walter Smith was watching the hostility aimed at the Celtic Directors box, one fan in the main stand screamed at him, ‘What are you looking at, it’s got fuck all to do with you.”
For me anyway there were a few “not a lot of people know that” moments like that in the book.
The contrast between Fergus McCann’s and David Murray’s style was immediately evident, but the impact of Fergus’s shorter tenure from 1994 to 1999 became more than evident after McCann left and the author does not miss the role servile journalists played and hit the wall for turning Celtic supporters against McCann during his tenure, whilst they dined on Murray’s succulent lamb. A role that in the end helped bring about Rangers end, but not the culture of servility when covering the activity of Rangers FC PLC successor club from 2012.
Sky TV get it in the neck too and if David Murray played the part of Colonel Mustard in killing Scottish football through his financial recklessness and duplicity, Sky are the lead pipe whose toxicity still dictates the nature of the current state of play.( I said it was a Smorgasbord)
Fergus kind of did what it said on the tin. In his case a tin of nippy sweeties, but it was interesting to read about his early years when even then he was described as “a cheeky upstart” but his “idiosyncrasies” and appearance under a bunnet, disguised a sharp if impatient business mind where for him getting straight to the point was akin to procrastination.
So too has Murray’s early years been covered including his rejected attempt to buy Ayr Utd, a rejection by Ayr Directors, who considered Murray was too hot headed and most volatile, that infuriated him.
Their conclusion that he was trying to get Ayr United on the cheap with only £125k of his own money involved was an indicator of his strategy of using other people’s money to invest and not his own. Other people including unsuspecting taxpayers to a tune of £50 million or so.
As you follow the narrative of both Fergus McCann and David Murray and the events that surrounded them, you end up wondering how so many could have been fooled for so long by one guy, but when you have the Scottish media in your pocket it was difficult to separate fact from fiction during the tenure of both. You also wonder how Murray remains a Knight of the Realm since.
Luckily for Celtic Fergus knew business fact from PR fiction and avoided the illusion in which Celtic’s main rivals continue to struggle to this day.
The great pity is that few, if any of the Scottish main stream media will even give this book a mention, because if you don’t write about it, it never happened, except it did and this book is proof.
I therefore recommend anyone interested in the future of our game buys it and asks, is it not now time to revisit the purpose of Scottish football?
Auldheid
John Clark 25th July 2020 at 22:46
“..’The clubs however have voted.
They said NO!’
They were not willing to give the SPFL board this power.
Was this a vote of no confidence?
Many have said that to me.
So yes, it probably is sort of and informally.”
================================================
So, did they get a vote proving the member clubs had confidence in them when their resolution to finish the league was passed, with something like 80% of the clubs agreeing to it. That must be the case using the same logic.
Of course not, people were voting on one thing. They supported that resolution.
Did the member clubs have a vote of no confidence at their AGM under a week ago, not that I have heard. That would have been the time to do it. Was it even put forward as a proposal.
How many of the permanent members of the board have been sacked because the clubs don’t think they are doing their job properly. I haven’t heard of any.
The members failed to support a resolution, they are perfectly entitled to. It’s as simple as that.
Nothing in the DR today either from Keef about his “EXCLUSIVE”.
There is a reference to testing in the readers’ phone-in, “Hotline” section, with this;
“…Mick Docherty, Kirkintilloch, said: “Are Rangers ‘a club like no other’? They were allowed to play in Europe – a game which should never have happened at the start of a pandemic.
Now they are being investigated for the fear the club broke testing protocol for a friendly match against Dundee Utd. Surely they must be sanctioned, the rules are for everyone to adhere to.”
Besides that, it’s good to see the Hotline returning to normality as we finally start bickering over results on the park…
========
The Scottish Sun has this article today;
“PATIENCE TESTED
Several Premiership clubs left seething that costly twice-weekly Covid-19 tests have been ordered by SFA
EXCLUSIVE
TOP clubs were on a collision course with the SFA last night as the Covid-19 testing fiasco plumbed new depths.
SunSport can reveal several Premiership sides are seething that costly twice-weekly tests have been ordered by Hampden…”
‘reasonablechap 26th July 2020 at 09:55
…Perception is one thing, reality is another and the main point I was making stands…’
#########################################
Actually, I think you’re confusing the two.
The ‘reality’ is:
The last Board of the SPFL identified a gap in their powers to deal with exceptional events like Covid19. As is common in business (& as a responsible Board should do in these circumstances), they attempted to gain these powers via a resolution. That resolution failed. The likely reason it did so was that the members believed the actions of the (19-20) Board in utilising a Director’s Written Resolution was the correct thing to do in the circumstances, enabling each club to vote for its preferred outcome. (The actual nature of the DWR used is subject to current debate/appeal, of course. )
Your ‘perception’ is that, in rejecting the resolution, the clubs gave a ‘bloody nose’ to the board:
My perception is that the clubs actually supported the actions of the (19-20) Board (however imperfect & rushed those actions were) & have indicated that by not giving the Board ‘carte blanche‘, the route offered by individual, as required DWRs is the proper, more cautious way to proceed in similar circumstances. If such a method is required to be used again, then I’d expect a more robust examination of the wording & scope before being put to a vote.
Jingso.Jimsie 26th July 2020 at 11:23
———————————————
My take on the failure of the Board to get the executive powers they sought is indeed a lack of trust in a Board that has majority representation from half a dozen clubs. That is down to the self interest exhibited in the end of season vote debacle.
It is the governance model that is wrong. There should be an executive Board appointed to promote the league for the benefit of all teams without undue influence from individual clubs. That Board should primarily comprise of skilled professionals with commercial and marketing skills. They should be contracted for fixed periods with renewal dependent on performance.
easyJambo 26th July 2020 at 12:56
100 %
easyJambo 26th July 2020 at 12:56
Jingso.Jimsie 26th July 2020 at 11:23
My take on the failure of the Board to get the executive powers they sought is indeed a lack of trust in a Board that has majority representation from half a dozen clubs. That is down to the self interest exhibited in the end of season vote debacle.
=================================
Couldn't agree more Easy. The diversity of the SPFL association is huge, ranging from clubs that can generate or spend 10's of millions on a transaction, to dinner/dances of a few hundred quid. A "one fits all" solution scenario is a practical impossibility to achieve considering the varying hopes and needs and aspirations of all involved. This can occasionally result in conflict and even farce, as each club is affected by change in differing ways. Often this may be detrimental to individual clubs, while favouring others, but all the while becomes detrimental to the overall direction of the collective. Short term-ism and self interest runs rife and unchecked to the long term benefit of no-one. As things stand I have my doubts gaining structural change within the current structure would be unachievable, as without doubt, some clubs will be left out of the frame in a restructure. The main problem being it may say, "Professional" on the tin, but too many biscuits will be discarded by quality control…….That is just business. If ACME quick fit-fitters had 42 branches in Scotland, with many garages failing, HQ would take the appropriate action. It wouldn't ask the garages what it should do. It would issue KPI's to be met with the edict, "fail at your own peril". Football can be run as a business, or a sport/hobby, but they can't both be run from the same office.
Homunculus 25th July 2020 at 21:04
Cluster One 25th July 2020 at 20:21
Surely it ultimately has to be the match referee who is responsible for the game going ahead or not.
Other people may have the opportunity to stop it before him, for example the officials of the team whose results have not been received. Who should presumably then go to him and declare that they were not clear to play.
………………
If it is the match referee who ultimately has the say if the match should go ahead. If he was doing his job right he would have asked have the players been tested and are the results back.
If the Ref never asked these questions and the match got the go ahead, the SFA should be punishing the ref.
If the Ref asked these questions and was given the answer that the ibrox tests were not back yet and he let the game go ahead, the SFA have to punish the ref.
If the Ref asked these questions and the answers he was given were not the correct answers then the SFA have to punish the club for putting everyones life in danger.
Just because the results came back negative does not excuse the failings by the Ref or the club.
Cluster One 26th July 2020 at 18:35
=============================
I agree.
I would go further and say everyone involved should be held to account.
The referee should not have played the game if the tests results had not come back as negative. It should even be open to any form of debate.
If he did not ask then the clubs should have gone to him anyway and made the declaration that they did not have the results back and therefore could not play.
Everyone involved is responsible for getting this right.
As you say them ultimately coming back as negative is irrelevant in this instance. The game should not have gone ahead without them.
This is an enormous story which seems to have gone very quiet.
Homunculus 26th July 2020 at 18:47
This is an enormous story which seems to have gone very quiet.
…………..
I noticed that.
Cluster One 26th July 2020 at 18:59
We will just have to see what action the SFA choose to take.
Presumably both they and the SPFL will wish to demonstrate to the Scottish Government that they are serious about this issue and that they and the clubs can be trusted to follow the Scottish Governments instructions.
If they fail to do that there must be a prospect that the Government will simply ban them from allowing games to be played.
It strikes me as madness, particularly when a private individual put up millions of pounds to assist the game deal with the Covid crisis. Though I believe a few of the clubs chose to pass that money on to charity instead.
Homunculus 26th July 2020 at 21:25
We will just have to see what action the SFA choose to take.
…………..
Still waiting on them taking action on the ibrox club for bringing the game into disrepute,with their dossier saga and Stewart Robertsons Gross breaches of confidentiality.
Homunculus 26th July 2020 at 21:25
Cluster One 26th July 2020 at 18:59
We will just have to see what action the SFA choose to take. Presumably both they and the SPFL will wish to demonstrate to the Scottish Government that they are serious about this issue and that they and the clubs can be trusted to follow the Scottish Governments instructions. ===================================
I believe they have H, and have instructed that the tests be bi-weekly as opposed to weekly. At a cost of approx £4.5k per club, it has now doubled….They should have invested in their own machines with the charity donations. They never !….I don't see that it can be in any way the fault of the governing bodies, other than failing to instruct clubs to use the donation wisely.
There was, (I believe), a list of do's and dont's came with the donation, but I doubt investing in a machine would have been on the don't list.. The unprofessionalism in not having their own testing facilities cannot be understated. What next?…Turning up withoot a ba'.
It was an action beyond rank stupidity. It is a basic H&S requirement for games to be played..
What's it all about , Alfie ? (from L'Equipe ).
Tracked for two good years in Ligue 1 (Nice, OM and Rennes in particular), left-hander Alfredo Morelos has never been so close to landing in France. As announced earlier today, LOSC has reached an agreement with the player who is obviously very keen on playing for the Mastiffs . If the salary offered by Lille to the player has not leaked, we can reveal to you that it is a four-season lease. But while Luis Campos and the player have struck a deal, that's not quite the case between LOSC and Rangers. According to our information, the northern club offered € 15 million (+ € 2 million bonus) to afford the talents of the Colombian international (7 selections – 1 goal) under contract with the Scottish club until June 2023.
Insufficient to convince the Rangers who hope at least 20 M € to release the striker much appreciated by Steven Gerrard. As a reminder, the formidable Colombian striker with warm blood (6 reds and 26 yellows in all competitions over the 3 seasons spent in Scotland) is above all a scorer. Since arriving from HJK Helsinki, Morelos has scored 56 goals in 118 appearances for Glasgow Rangers. This would be an excellent pick for the club coached by Christophe Galtier in search of offensive reinforcements since the official departure of Loïc Rémy and that of Victor Osimhen.
Corrupt official 26th July 2020 at 22:44
Homunculus 26th July 2020 at 21:25
Cluster One 26th July 2020 at 18:59
==============================
I spoke to my match official friend in the pub tonight. He told me that the match officials have no responsibilities for club testing protocols. Apparently each club has a nominated Covid-19 person who has responsibility to ensure that the club adheres to the testing protocols agreed between the SFA and the Scottish Government.
He could understand the issues resulting from the delayed test results that meant that the Hibs v Ross County friendly was cancelled and the Rangers v Motherwell friendly was delayed, but considered that the Rangers (B) v Dundee Utd friendly to be a much more serious issue, particularly if Rangers had failed to adhere to the protocols.
'Fergus McCann v David Murray
By
Auldheid
-26th July 2020'
' .the author does not miss the role servile journalists played and hit the wall for turning Celtic supporters against McCann during his tenure, whilst they dined on Murray’s succulent lamb. A role that in the end helped bring about Rangers end, but not the culture of servility when covering the activity of Rangers FC PLC successor club from 2012.'
""""""""""""""""""""
Indeed.
The 'succulent lamb' diners lied to protect the arch-cheat of Scottish Football, and continue to lie in their propagation of the untruth that TRFC is the same identical cheating club that was RFC of 1872 .
We really must call out those 'journalists' who , basically, are liars-and who know themselves to be liars and as morally bankrupt as RFC of 1872 became financially bankrupt to the point of Liquidation and death as a football club.
easyJambo 27th July 2020 at 00:16
“..He told me that the match officials have no responsibilities for club testing protocols.”
“”””””””””””””””””””
And really, when you think about it, it would be a bit absurd if football referees were to be expected to be covid-19 health authorities and adjudicators any more than they are expected to be crowd safety or fire or hygiene authorities.
Mind you, it might have been sensible for the SFA to instruct refs to satisfy themselves that all the covid testing requirements had been met.
If they had done, then of course the referee of the match in question is hung out to dry.
But I think that not even our dysfunctional SFA would seriously have contemplated imposing that duty on the refs.
For those interested in purchasing Fergus McCann v David Murray here is a link.
https://t.co/qcZSt7dKTx
Although the book obviously focuses on a part of the history of Celtic and Rangers, all of Scottish football lives with the outcome today, hence posting a Review on SFM.
The impact of decisions that put the fate of our game in the hands of Sky for example.
As you follow the narrative of both Fergus McCann and David Murray and the events that surrounded them, you end up wondering how so many could have been fooled for so long by one guy,
Whyte was found guilty of bringing Scottish football into disrepute whilst Murray claimed he was duped.
…………………….
Like Murray pretending to be Duped, so many were not fooled. They went along.
They went along with Murray and did not care, who was going to complain?
Murray knew he was cheating scottish football. Even back then people were asking where is all this money coming from? Who cares would be the reply. As long as an ibrox club was winning no one cared if they were being fooled or duped The glory years* was all that mattered. The problem now is that most of the ibrox fan base and SMSM look on those years as the height of scottish football and not the steroid using junkie that it should be looked upon.Ask any ibrox fan if they would give up those titles they won during the cheating years they would say NO, Ask any other fan in any sport if they knew titles or trophies won by cheating would they like to see them kept and celebrated the answer would be shove them up your ar**
When you idolise a cheat and you know they have cheated but you go along with it you are not fooled, you are part of the problem of seeing a fair game ever being fair again.
easyJambo 27th July 2020 at 00:16
I spoke to my match official friend in the pub tonight. He told me that the match officials have no responsibilities for club testing protocols. Apparently each club has a nominated Covid-19 person who has responsibility to ensure that the club adheres to the testing protocols agreed between the SFA and the Scottish Government.
…
John Clark 27th July 2020 at 00:40
And really, when you think about it, it would be a bit absurd if football referees were to be expected to be covid-19 health authorities and adjudicators any more than they are expected to be crowd safety or fire or hygiene authorities.
……………………..
Jesus! i can’t leave the house without a “Have you got your mask, have you got your hand sanitiser. If a club nominated Covid-19 person at ibrox never set alarm bells ringing when the players took to the field, that club should be punished. Like when i leave the house there are many questions asked, how many people were at ibrox that day? did no one ask any questions?
Have (you got your mask) Have the players been tested? have the results came back should have been questions everyone at that ground should have been asking no matter what there job was that day, that should have been the first question on anyones lips even if you have no responsibilities for club testing protocols. Hiding behind not my place to ask or not my job does not cut it. Everyone and their granny should have been asking those questions that day.
Even a couple of don’t know answers should have set alarm bells ringing.
Deja vu… again?
Could it be, that the SFA has repeated a simple mistake, regarding testing results and protocols:
it trusted ALL clubs to honestly self-certificate?
The Hampden blazers simply don't do 'learning from experience' and steadfastly remain stoopid…
easyJambo 27th July 2020 at 00:16
I spoke to my match official friend in the pub tonight. He told me that the match officials have no responsibilities for club testing protocols. Apparently each club has a nominated Covid-19 person who has responsibility to ensure that the club adheres to the testing protocols agreed between the SFA and the Scottish Government.
==============================
Thanks very much, I find that absolutely extraordinary.
Rather than have the match official confirm that the players have been tested and are negative they are leaving it up to the clubs themselves. What happens, that is then abused almost instantly.
The SFA really do need to take strong action in relation to things like this. We are talking about the safety of the players, the officials, anyone they come in contact with etc etc.
Absolutely appalling.
I would have thought that the Coronavirus Joint Response Group might have had something to say about TRFC's breach of testing protocol?
Have I missed it? There's nothing from them on the SFA website later than 23 July.
It is being reported that Hearts and Partick Thistle have lost the arbitration hearing and they will play in the lower divisions next year, with the promotions of Dundee Utd etc standing.
I have no idea what happens next, if anything.
I find it odd that none of the parties involved have said anything as yet, but the MSM appear to have been advised of the outcome, despite the lack of leaks earlier in the process.
If that is indeed the final outcome, then everything just moves on. I would like to see the reasons for the decision though.
SPFL Statement
https://spfl.co.uk/news/arbitration-panel-hands-down-unanimous-judgement
McClennan:"I would fully expect all those involved to agree that no stone was left unturned, no allegation left unanswered,"
Oh that the President of the SFA could say as much of that 'governance' body's own LNS Inquiry, and of the Res 12 matter, where there were and are plenty of stones left unturned , and plenty of allegations not even looked at let alone 'answered'.
MacLennan:”I would fully expect all those involved to agree that no stone was left unturned, no allegation left unanswered,”
============
In that case…….I would fully expect all those involved to agree that the full detail of the arbitration hearing be made public.
To have any hope of moving-on, we need full transparency.
John Clark 27th July 2020 at 14:52
McClennan:"I would fully expect all those involved to agree that no stone was left unturned, no allegation left unanswered,"…
===================
There must be quite a few stones – piled high – at Hampden, which are clearly marked;
"DON'T TURN OVER!"
The SFA website has a current virus update – which specifically mentions St.Mirren.
However, there is specifically NO mention of a club fielding 9 untested players.
Arbitration is a confidential process.
I would be surprised if much comes out by way of details on the deliberations.
Apparently that confidentiality is backed up by legislation, I do not know enough about it to say more than that.
"Arbitration in Scotland is a confidential process, and unlike the position in most jurisdictions, the duty to treat proceedings as confidential is backed up by legislation. The obligation to treat all matters relating to the arbitration confidentially is enshrined in the Scottish Act, and is has been strongly backed by the Scottish courts."
https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/joint-club-statement-1-2-3-4-5-6
Response to Scottish FA Article 99 Arbitration: Determination – 27.07.20
Arbitral Tribunal:
“The tribunal appointed in terms of Scottish Football Association Article 99 issued its decision today. It unanimously held that the challenges to the Written Resolution of 15 April 2020 failed, and that the SPFL were entitled to pass, and give effect to, the Written Resolution and all that flowed from it. Accordingly it refused to grant any of the orders sought by Heart of Midlothian FC and Partick Thistle FC and continued the arbitration for submissions about expenses.”
Joint Statement by Heart of Midlothian FC and Partick Thistle FC:
“As all Parties have been requested not to comment on the tribunal’s decision or reveal details of the hearings on the grounds of confidentiality, all we can only say is how disappointed and surprised we are at the outcome.
“We don’t regret taking this action as it was the right thing for us to do. There were better ways to deal with ending the season, fairer ways other than putting the burden of a pandemic on to three clubs.”
In addition to the joint statement, Partick put out their own, and much more emotional, statement, in which Jacqui Low seeks use the decision to galvanise the club and its supporters.
https://ptfc.co.uk/ptfc-news/message-to-the-partick-thistle-family/
Extract:
The correct resolution under extremely difficult circumstances was reconstruction in my opinion.
Without that it was inevitable that someone had to lose out. Whether it be the clubs which were relegated, as has been confirmed by the arbitration, or the clubs losing out on promotion, which they will now get. Someone was going to lose out.
Promotion with no relegation was achievable, the SPFL board wanted it as far as I could see.
The clubs rejected it, and that was the matter dead.
Homunculus @ 19.12
The correct resolution under extremely difficult circumstances was reconstruction in my opinion.
——————————————————————————-
The best decision would have been to complete the season behind closed doors resulting in nobody losing out. If this was not possible, and I'm not convinced it wasn't, the second best solution would have been reconstruction, if only on a temporary basis. What we have ended up with is a nonsense.
bordersdon 27th July 2020 at 19:48
Homunculus @ 19.12
The correct resolution under extremely difficult circumstances was reconstruction in my opinion. ——————————————————————————-
The best decision would have been to complete the season behind closed doors resulting in nobody losing out. If this was not possible, and I'm not convinced it wasn't,
====================================
There wasn't a reliable test available until quite recently BD, and even when one was discovered, the equipment required was naturally prioritised in directions it would do most good.
In addition there were legal matters such as player and partner contracts to consider, and furloughed groundstaff etc, One club even ripped its pitch up.
bordersdon 27th July 2020 at 19:48
The best decision would have been to complete the season behind closed doors
………..
When?
There were no test kits avaliable, even when they became available only two clubs bought them. Even now we can’t even get a club to follow the right protocol for a friendly with testing never mind a real game. So just when would these games be played behind closed doors? and at what cost? Remember one club refused point blank to play games behind closed doors. So just when and how do you think the season would or could be played behind closed doors?
bordersdon 27th July 2020 at 19:48
Homunculus @ 19.12
The correct resolution under extremely difficult circumstances was reconstruction in my opinion.
——————————————————————————-
The best decision would have been to complete the season behind closed doors resulting in nobody losing out.
No doubt that was the best option at that time and that it was what every club wanted and every set of supporters wanted.
However they had to work within the confines of what the Scottish Government would allow, even behind closed doors, in addition to what could be afforded by the clubs. It is only fairly recently that the clubs were allowed to play at all. Even then they seem unable to stick to fairly simple instructions.
Once it was decided the league would be finished, by a resolution voted on by the clubs, the correct way to go was reconstruction. Which this time the clubs would not support.
More than one club ripped up their pitch before the Premiership was called.
This is from 8 May
https://twitter.com/StJohnstone/status/1258786419008569344
Sorry if my previous is a bit confusing, the edit function has gone.
I was responding to
“The best decision would have been to complete the season behind closed doors resulting in nobody losing out.”
Ann Budge has now issued a statement which includes a couple of barbs.
https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/a-message-from-ann-budge-1
What has been allowed to happen in Scottish football, where fellow member clubs and our governing bodies have stood back and allowed totally disproportionate financial damage to be imposed on 3 of its members, can only be described as shameful… as indeed, should the SPFL’s recent self-congratulatory statement.
For too long, Chairmen and Owners have stood on the sidelines bemoaning the decision-making processes, the perceived lack of leadership, the lack of commercialism; the general shortcomings, as they see it, of Scottish football. However, if they really want things to change, it will take more than words. They will have to stand-up and be counted.
We tried to do just that. Unfortunately, the very fact that we tried and lost, will cause many others to be even more wary. I can hear them now… “You can’t fight the rules; you can’t fight the establishment; we must support the centre.” Sadly, I see little cause for optimism that things will improve any time soon in Scottish football. I hope I am wrong.
Homunculus
You have captured my feelings completely.
I would add that I think reconstruction could have happened if Ann Budge hadn’t suggested what sounded like pre-conditions and the ICT CEO hadn’t been exposed as a truth twister. Both did their clubs and Scottish football a disservice.
It looks as if the clubs who have suffered most from this episode are preparing to ‘move on’.
If that is the case, then it reflects more favourably on them than the authorities. Sadly it also means that the opportunity to get some laundry aired has again been lost.
My problem with the SPFL board is not that they have been found to be doing anything wrong. Despite our knowledge of the systematic corruption that pertains in the Scottish game, I was never convinced that this was a legal hill high enough to die on.
Even if the original vote had been carried out legally (though not professionally) and all protocols were followed to the letter, here was an opportunity for a statesmanship to emerge that recognised the spirit if not the letter of the rules. That statesmanship is absent in the game, and whilst many will observe that Hearts and Thistle probably would have been with most of the rest if they had not been at the sharp end of the Covid19 stick, that matters little to me – because someone – anyone – would have been at the sharp end of that stick.
There was for sure a way out to prevent or mitigate the damage to those clubs. The spirit of sportsmanship and fairness had an opportunity to emerge, but that spirit is as scarce in Scottish football as an ice sculpture at a bonfire.
Compare and contrast the casual, offhand dismissal of these three clubs’ pleas for help to the demented Armageddon calls of 2012 – set up to try to enable and reward a club who had actually cheated.
And consider that the rationale for that demented leap down the rabbit hole was to “protect the game’s finances”.
Perhaps an Edinburgh derby or four isn’t a money maker?
No matter what happens next season, I hope (and I know that this is inexplicably not the consensus view on here) that Hearts, Partick Thistle and Stranraer win their respective competitions comfortably, and that they can use this episode to galvanise their staff and fans and use this as a springboard to greater success in the future.
For the rest of Scottish football, they will have to be content with the realisation that they are as small and parochial as the English media have long characterised them.
For once in Scottish football, nobody cheated. Perversely though, this time five clubs were punished.
Corrupt Official
There’s not a reliable test now!! Legal matters? Yeh we avoided them! Not.
Cluster one.
As soon as possible, even if it impacted on season 2020/21.
Don’t recall any club saying they would not play BCD’s
Am I correct in thinking that there is no financial compensation for the clubs involved?
Big Pink 27th July 2020 at 21:02
For the rest of Scottish football, they will have to be content with the realisation that they are as small and parochial as the English media have long characterised them.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I would be loathe to say that without knowing the views of all 39 other clubs. How many of them would have supported reconstruction for example. Or how many would have supported it if it did not have to be a temporary arrangement.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52822935
Would reconstruction be permanent?
Budge is very keen to stress her proposal is a short-term measure and reconstruction is only temporary. Unless enough clubs vote otherwise, the structure would return to 12-10-10-10 in the summer of 2022.
This idea is not popular with several clubs contacted by BBC Scotland, who point out that it could mean three clubs being relegated from the Premiership that season, and six demoted from the Championship. Are those who that would endanger going to support that?
One senior club official said that he was “sad” about the proposals, adding: “We had a real chance for change – but a two-year deal?”
=============================================
I’m afraid that Hearts, Partick Thistle and Stranraer good, everyone else bad is too much of a sweeping generalisation for my liking.
I started out with a deal of sympathy for Hearts suggesting early on that clubs suffering through premature call of seasons end should perhaps have been offered some financial compensation at the least. The opinion of the majority was against reconstruction and no sweetening of the pill seemed to be forthcoming.Hearts and Thistle have both issued statements that wouldn’t have been out of place if posted by an entity that has a deal of experience in statements.I have just finished watching Fear City on Netflix , a documentary series on the pervasive influence of the mafia in New York during the 70/80’s. The ‘Commission’ was a gathering of the most influential gangster families at the time and they turned on one of their own ,Carmine Gallante.Nothing personal Ann,just business.
bordersdon 27th July 2020 at 21:04
As soon as possible, even if it impacted on season 2020/21.
Don’t recall any club saying they would not play BCD’s
……………………
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1287848105581465600/photo/1
…….
Uefa have stated that all leagues must finish on Aug 3 at latest. scottish clubs are not allowed to play until Aug 1. so when would you expect the games to be played behind closed doors?
Also if the SPFL does not start on time there will be penalties from sky
bordersdon 27th July 2020 at 21:17
Am I correct in thinking that there is no financial compensation for the clubs involved?
………………….
Clubs involved have been hit with a letter of complaint for bringing the game into disrepute they could end up with a fine.
Cluster one @ 21.38
Uefa have stated that all leagues must finish on Aug 3 at latest. scottish clubs are not allowed to play until Aug 1.
Did we consider taking a year out from UEFA competitions? Nah I don’t suppose that would work for all!!
adam812 27th July 2020 at 20:56
I would add that I think reconstruction could have happened if Ann Budge hadn’t suggested what sounded like pre-conditions and the ICT CEO hadn’t been exposed as a truth twister. Both did their clubs and Scottish football a disservice.
I think you misrepresent what actually happened.
The SPFL Board knew that there was a risk of litigation (their QC told them). They knew that reconstruction would largely have removed that risk, but deemed it a difficult sell to clubs who have historically opposed it. As a result the composite resolution proposed by the Board did not include reconstruction as part of package to be voted on.
There was a token commitment to explore reconstruction if the resolution was passed. A working group was set up, including representatives from a third of SPFL sides plus HL and LL representatives. That should have been sufficient to come up with a proposal that should have had a chance of getting through, but what happened? They didn’t even get the chance to present their proposals, because half a dozen Premiership clubs had already indicated that they would not support ANY reconstruction proposal. Reconstruction was doomed to fail before it started. I don’t see how that was of Hearts and ICT’s doing.
There remains a “closed shop, old school, gentlemen’s club and blazer” mentality by owners and CEO’s of many Scottish Clubs. While that remains Scottish Football will remain the parochial, backward looking and insignificant entity it has become over the last decade and more.
bordersdon 27th July 2020 at 21:45
…………………..
Did we consider taking a year out from UEFA competitions? Nah I don’t suppose that would work for all!!
…
I believe you have to give two years notice, happy to be corrected. It is not just the clubs that take part in UEFA competitions that make money. Every SPFL club recieve solidarity payment funds. if clubs do well in europe. A good cash boost for many clubs
Cluster one
I’ll leave it at that. A big cash boost for some. Maybe in these “unprecedented times” even uefa would have been willing to change the rules (if indeed that is a rule)? Just wondered if that was considered.
JC, having an early night?
I like to read your midnight-ish post to put an end to the day.
easyJambo 27th July 2020 at 21:57
There remains a “closed shop, old school, gentlemen’s club and blazer” mentality by owners and CEO’s of many Scottish Clubs. While that remains Scottish Football will remain the parochial, backward looking and insignificant entity it has become over the last decade and more.
If Hearts had not been in the position they were in, I am quite sure Anne Budge would have been happy to be part of the closed shop, old school mentality. I am also quite sure had other clubs been in Hearts position, they may well have taken the same route as Ann Budge. What I can’t accept is the notion that only Anne Budge cares about the greater good of the game. She has had a longer honeymoon in Scottish football than anyone I can remember other than David Murray, who was on permanent honeymoon!
easyjambo
So much has happened during lock down that I cannot be sure what information became available to us in real time and what has come after the event.
A lot of my knowledge came from Sportsound where it seemed to me that Ann Budge and people like Scott Gardiner were treated with reverence and Neil Doncaster the complete opposite.
If my memory serves me correctly I believe Ann Budge told Tom English that she wanted temporary reconstruction a long time before we heard anything about the legal advice the SPFL received.
Media people and others, including myself, seemed to fail to understand fully why Neil Doncaster spoke about the need to put forward single issue resolutions. If you put forward multiple options you will struggle to get concensus and I would respectfully suggest Ann Budge, by voicing her opinions to Tom English, muddied the waters too much.
Many posters on this site will have realised this. You state black is black and white is white and get thumbs up all round (maybe one or two “awkward” people will go thumbs-down!) but if you included a comment about green or blue it was very different! The result was that you didn’t know if there were lots of people disagreeing that white is white!
One final question from me on this subject is to ask was there really a need for Ann Budge to end her statement with the comment “I am sorry we did not win this battle but as we all know, it is winning the war that counts”?
What doesn’t kill us makes us stronger , and we’ve not died a winter yet . Onwards and upwards (etc !) Back to football , please .
jimbo 28th July 2020 at 00:51
‘..JC, having an early night?
I like to read your midnight-ish post to put an end to the day’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””
Ha, ha, jimbo.
At about 22.00 last night I read adam812’s earlier post of 20.56 , and then I graciously had to hand over the pc to Mrs C, for her to communicate with Australia. (In any case, I didn’t have anything to say that would have been worth the bother of using my phone to do so)
And that was that. By the time she was finished it was bedtime.
I’ve read the rest of last night’s posts ,and this morning’s, of course.
I think my general position is expressed by BP in his post (Big Pink 27th July 2020 at 21:02):
“Compare and contrast the casual, offhand dismissal of these three clubs’ pleas for help to the demented Armageddon calls of 2012 – set up to try to enable and reward a club who had actually cheated.”
together with eJ’s (“easyJambo 27th July 2020 at 21:57)
“There remains a “closed shop, old school, gentlemen’s club and blazer” mentality by owners and CEO’s of many Scottish Clubs..”
For such an inter-dependent aggregation of businesses to have accepted the ‘Big Lie’ to try to save one club from the ordinary consequences of its decade-long deliberate and calculated cheating and yet perversely refuse to find some way of recognising the truly extraordinary circumstances brought about by Covid19 ,is a measure of the rank rotten ‘values’ cherished by the ‘SPFL’ ( and, of course, shared by the SFA).
Frankly, Scottish Football as the antithesis of any kind of soundly and honestly administered ‘sport’ deserves to die.
adam812 27th July 2020 at 20:56
I would add that I think reconstruction could have happened if Ann Budge hadn’t suggested what sounded like pre-conditions and the ICT CEO hadn’t been exposed as a truth twister. Both did their clubs and Scottish football a disservice.
easyJambo 27th July 2020 at 21:57
I think you misrepresent what actually happened……
=======================
I agree with EJ for the same reasons he presents in the same post referenced above. I`d also like to point out how ‘faulty’ narratives can appear and if favourable to general views on X or Y, are easily and eagerly adopted #confirmationbias
IMO, this has a lot to do with why throughout this omnishambles, the SPFL executive have prioritised a spin campaign in the media, rather than consider or be in a position to be able to show considered leadership. As far as the print (& online presence) were concerned, it was mainly done through Keith Jackson at the DR.
Going back to something I mentioned yesterday….
MacLennan:”I would fully expect all those involved to agree that no stone was left unturned, no allegation left unanswered,”
In that case…….I would fully expect all those involved to agree that the full detail of the arbitration hearing be made public.
I know secrecy can be a regrettable part of the arbitration process but I seem to recall it being reported, that if all sides were willing to have the details made public, then it could be done.
Can anyone give a definitive on that, please. EJ ?
reasonablechap 28th July 2020 at 11:1
“””””””””
Arbitration(Scotland) Act 2010 Schedule 1
“Rule 26 Confidentiality D
26(1)Disclosure by the tribunal, any arbitrator or a party of confidential information relating to the arbitration is to be actionable as a breach of an obligation of confidence unless the disclosure—
(a)is authorised, expressly or impliedly, by the parties (or can reasonably be considered as having been so authorised),
(b)is required by the tribunal or is otherwise made to assist or enable the tribunal to conduct the arbitration,
(c)is required—
(i)in order to comply with any enactment or rule of law,
(ii)for the proper performance of the discloser’s public functions, or
(iii)in order to enable any public body or office-holder to perform public functions properly,
(d)can reasonably be considered as being needed to protect a party’s lawful interests,
(e)is in the public interest,
(f)is necessary in the interests of justice, or
(g)is made in circumstances in which the discloser would have absolute privilege had the disclosed information been defamatory.
(2)The tribunal and the parties must take reasonable steps to prevent unauthorised disclosure of confidential information by any third party involved in the conduct of the arbitration.
(3)The tribunal must, at the outset of the arbitration, inform the parties of the obligations which this rule imposes on them.
(4)“Confidential information”, in relation to an arbitration, means any information relating to—
(a)the dispute,
(b)the arbitral proceedings,
(c)the award, or
(d)any civil proceedings relating to the arbitration in respect of which an order has been granted under section 15 of this Act,
which is not, and has never been, in the public domain.”
In the spirit of moving on could I please recommend a very useful location app to fellow posters.
Thinking about a time in the not too distant future when mass attendance football is once again safe and you are planning to pick up a friend in Inverness before you travel on together to watch Ross County. Your friend suggests a retail park car park as a good place to meet.
When you’re travelling up the A9 you get a text from him saying “foster.bumps.song” which you enter into the what3words app. You can download the app from the Play or App store and try the words out to see how it works.
It’s more than just a friend finder as I have used it to get an ambulance to an otherwise difficult to explain location following a serious accident.
John Clark 28th July 2020 at 11:46
“””””””””
Arbitration(Scotland) Act 2010 Schedule 1
“Rule 26 Confidentiality D
26(1)Disclosure by the tribunal, any arbitrator or a party of confidential information relating to the arbitration is to be actionable as a breach of an obligation of confidence unless the disclosure—
(a)is authorised, expressly or impliedly, by the parties (or can reasonably be considered as having been so authorised),
(e)is in the public interest,
==========================
Thanks JC !
The HMFC/PT joint statement had this to say about it……. “As all Parties have been requested not to comment on the tribunal’s decision or reveal details of the hearings on the grounds of confidentiality, all we can only say is how disappointed and surprised we are at the outcome.”
The SPFL statement was very keen to sell the process as having been rigorous, thorough and leaving no stones unturned but never mentioned the restrictions in giving us the detail to back that up.
Who made the decision to tell the parties not to comment or reveal details ?
Given the level of public interest (ie. the main stakeholders:fans), why ?
reasonablechap
I am happy to accept that I have likely viewed the events of the last few months with more than a little bias but I try to acknowledge it. Indeed when I share concerns about events at Ibrox with my Rangers supporting sister I always acknowledge that I am wearing green tinted specs!
I do struggle with your comments about media spin by the SPFL though as there seemed to be very little support for them. Maybe the North of Scotland gets a different online product from the DR!
John Clark 28th July 2020 at 10:34
…
Frankly, Scottish Football as the antithesis of any kind of soundly and honestly administered ‘sport’ deserves to die.
IMO, Scottish football doesn’t need reconstruction,
but some form of creative destruction.
Initially, I was thinking that the pandemic could be the external / unexpected catalyst which finally forced wholesale changes on the game.
Mibbees it still will…?
But, so far in 2020 events have only reinforced the position that our clubs and the blazers just want to preserve the status quo.
Have we lost the ‘edit’ facility, and the scroll back to previous pages function? Or rather, I seem not to have these .Am I alone?
Me too JC.
Lost edit facility and the icons, and the separator indicator of ‘=’ signs.
What did you do JC… ? 🙂
reasonablechap 28th July 2020 at 11:17
I know secrecy can be a regrettable part of the arbitration process but I seem to recall it being reported, that if all sides were willing to have the details made public, then it could be done.
Can anyone give a definitive on that, please. EJ ?
Maybe if you emailed the parties involved asking, "If the others grant permission, will you?", you may get a response. If nothing else it may help you narrow down the circle of suspect secreteers.
Testing Time for Prem 12.
By kenny MacDonald.
The aim is to make sure there’s no repeat of TWO issues which caused problems during pre-season bounce games last week.
The SPFL wrote to rangers after their B-Team game against Dundee utd last week to make sure all players had been given the all clear.
Hibs and Motherwell also recieved letters from Hampden requesting clarification on testing delays.
ST Mirren then reported seven of their staff had tested positive – but after further tests it emerged onlyone had the virus with the other 6 being false positives.
……………………………………………….
One. I see THREE issues here, the ibrox one The Hibs and Motherwell and the ST Mirren one. But being reported that there is only TWO.
Do they deem one of these are not an issue?
……………………
easyJambo 27th July 2020 at 00:16
I spoke to my match official friend in the pub tonight. He told me that the match officials have no responsibilities for club testing protocols.
…
The SPFL wrote to rangers after their B-Team game against Dundee utd last week to make sure all players had been given the all clear
…
Your friend may be correct. Why would the match officials have any responsibilities for club testing protocols, when the SPFL will write to you to make sure all players had been given the all clear.
Whilst a recurring theme on SFM is the disconnect between Hampden / clubs and the supporters, this is an example – IMO – where supporters themselves can be disconnected from reality.
It’s being reported that the proposed takeover of Newcastle United is still being stalled by the FA. A BBC quote caught my eye;
“…More than 97% of Newcastle United Supporters’ Trust members are in favour of the takeover, and many fans have dismissed the manner in which the media has raised issues which could derail the Saudi bid…”
I appreciate that the Toon Army is desperate to see the back of Mike Ashley – but is the Saudi state really a ‘less bad option’?
Do they expect that NUFC will quickly become like Man City or PSG – awash with cash and a team full of superstars?
Saudi has its own economic woes, and it’s surprising, to me anyway, that it wants to splurge on a football club at all.
Mibbees NUFC supporters are just desperate, but I thought there would be more opposition to a Saudi takeover.
[Disclaimer: I’m assuming that the BBC has not simply copied/pasted a press release from the Saudi side!]
Moot point I suppose, as the FA will undoubtedly rubber stamp the transaction, eventually.
I have it on good authority (JC & EJ) that Big Pink is not restoring the Edit and Emoji options until the Summer Fundraiser target is met!
John Clark 28th July 2020 at 10:34
For such an inter-dependent aggregation of businesses to have accepted the ‘Big Lie’ to try to save one club from the ordinary consequences of its decade-long deliberate and calculated cheating and yet perversely refuse to find some way of recognising the truly extraordinary circumstances brought about by Covid19 ,is a measure of the rank rotten ‘values’ cherished by the ‘SPFL’ ( and, of course, shared by the SFA).
Frankly, Scottish Football as the antithesis of any kind of soundly and honestly administered ‘sport’ deserves to die.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I haven’t been on here lately but agree that because of the circumstances more should have been done to prevent the Hearts, Partick and Stranraer relegations.
However, my understanding is that the SPFL leadership had it in mind to implement some sort of reconstruction but this was cut across by other agendas opposing any reconstruction and the “Null and Void” Brigade.
Clearly they made an arse of handling the situation but the bottom line is, it was the clubs themselves who vetoed any reconstruction.
I will finish with a question which never seems to get answered. What should replace the incompetent SPFL Board/leadership? Many call for them and the SFA to be disbanded but what next?
bordersdon 27th July 2020 at 22:35
….
Looking back at the comments yesterday i feel my tone towards your posts was harsh, Sorry for that.
Having completed an online course and exam , and having the results delayed by the current pandemic , it crossed my mind that I still haven’t heard of Alastair Johnston passing a fit and proper examination . Any news on this ? A new season is upon us and you would normally clear the decks before venturing forth .
Bogs Dollox 28th July 2020 at 14:14
I will finish with a question which never seems to get answered. What should replace the incompetent SPFL Board/leadership? Many call for them and the SFA to be disbanded but what next?
++++++++++++++
It’s a very valid point. Who decides what format the replacement organisation(s) would take, and how do we know the decision would be made free of influence and bias? It would be very difficult in Scotland.
adam812
i use that for hiking
upthehoops 28th July 2020 at 21:12
Bogs Dollox 28th July 2020 at 14:14
I will finish with a question which never seems to get answered. What should replace the incompetent SPFL Board/leadership? Many call for them and the SFA to be disbanded but what next?
++++++++++++++
It’s a very valid point. Who decides what format the replacement organisation(s) would take, and how do we know the decision would be made free of influence and bias? It would be very difficult in Scotland.
I’ve given my thoughts about this a couple of time recently, but I’ll summarise them as follows.
You create an Executive Board of maybe 3 or 4 professionals not connected to any club. A CEO figurehead, leader, thinker, strategist, a Commercial director to do all the contract negotiations with broadcasters, sponsors etc. A Marketing director whose job is to promote the “brand”, seek out new investment and growth opportunities, delivery channels etc. You may also want a football administrator type to look after the Leagues themselves, the rules, fixtures, discipline etc., although it is not necessary for the football person to be on the Exec Board.
Those individuals should be contracted for fixed terms or for the duration of specific projects, e.g you may want to co-opt someone to deliver a new league structure. Contracts should only be renewed based on performance and delivery of the expected change.
The Execs would have been given the power to make changes without further referral to the clubs, although they may wish to consult with a Clubs Board when bouncing ideas around, but the Exec has to be autonomous and allowed to implement any changes they see fit, e.g. reconstruction.
The Clubs Board responsibility would simple be a sounding board and as a conduit for communication between the Exec and the clubs. They may also participate along with the Execs on nomination and remuneration committees.
In order to set it up, it would need all the clubs to sign up to the new structure and see their individual rights diluted, but to set the objectives for the first Exec appointees, e.g. raise income by x% a year, review the league set up and implement a new structure in two seasons time. There would be no final votes by clubs on the key changes on contracts, league structure etc.
Such changes could well be radical and mean significant change for some clubs, e.g. part time clubs in regional leagues, full integration with the pyramid.
Probably all just wishful thinking I’m afraid, but that’s the way I see it working. Something needs to change, or the game will ultimately die a death with few full time clubs left.
Arbitration(Scotland) Act 2010 Schedule 1
“Rule 26 Confidentiality D
26(1)Disclosure by the tribunal, any arbitrator or a party of confidential information relating to the arbitration is to be actionable as a breach of an obligation of confidence unless the disclosure—
(a)is authorised, expressly or impliedly, by the parties (or can reasonably be considered as having been so authorised),
(e)is in the public interest,
==========================
Thanks JC !
The HMFC/PT joint statement had this to say about it……. “As all Parties have been requested not to comment on the tribunal’s decision or reveal details of the hearings on the grounds of confidentiality, all we can only say is how disappointed and surprised we are at the outcome.”
The SPFL statement was very keen to sell the process as having been rigorous, thorough and leaving no stones unturned but never mentioned the restrictions in giving us the detail to back that up.
Who made the decision to tell the parties not to comment or reveal details ?
Given the level of public interest (ie. the main stakeholders:fans), why ?
==============================
I note that the recent arbitral award by CAS on Manchester City/UEFA has been made public, all 93 pages of it.
https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_6785___internet__.pdf
easyJambo 28th July 2020 at 22:00
++++++++++++++++++++
Finding anyone in Scotland ‘not connected to any club’ would not be easy. Any perceived connections would be leaked to the media by clubs for whatever reason, just like Rangers did with Murdoch Maclennan and his perceived connection to Celtic. Journalists with a gripe may then support the views . Just like several journalists did with the MacLennan issue. Even Graham Spiers said Gordon Smith and Campbell Ogilvie were fair and honest, but Dave King was right to raise the issue about MacLennan. Look how the BBC attacked the SPFL constantly during recent events. You may disagree as a Hearts fan, but the BBC failed to present a balanced case. The media let Rangers off completely with their accusations about corruption then failing to provide the promised evidence. I’m sure you can see the difficulties we would face in Scotland. where in my view there are still too many who see there being a natural order.
As for the game dying a death with more part time clubs. As a teenager in the 1970’s I used to read that often in newspapers. Decades on we have less part time clubs now than we did then. Even some top flight clubs like Kilmarnock and Partick were part time in those days.
upthehoops 29th July 2020 at 06:50
easyJambo 28th July 2020 at 22:00
++++++++++++++++++++
Finding anyone in Scotland ‘not connected to any club’ would not be easy.
==================================
For structural change, I don’t deem it necessary for a new set-up to be staffed by “fitba’ men” of any allegiance UTH, and as you point out, probably better if they didn’t. For example I don’t know if Barry Hearn is any good at snooker or has ever thrown a treble 20.
It’s not even necessary to be Scottish. ……. I made a comparison the other day with ACME quick-fit fitters running 42 garages, but I doubt if such a company existed it would be run by mechanics. Best in class at running a similar organisation is all that is required. From which industry is of far lesser importance.
Just an opinion though. More important than my opinion, is how the paying public would prefer to see the sport run, and would it be accepting of the changes required. There would need to be many.
As set out in previous posts, the Arbitration Act 2010 provides the legal route to making the arbitral judgement public #PublicInterest
This is what Lord Clark said about public interest in his recent judgement from the Court of Session case HMFC/PT v SPFL
18)”…I accept entirely, as Mr Thomson submitted, that the media and the general public have a great interest in this dispute and would prefer to have the issues aired in open court. However, as a matter of law, the parties have agreed to the terms of SFA articles of association and to be bound by them…”
22)”The 2010 Act sets out its founding principles, including: a)….(b) that parties should be free to agree how to resolve disputes subject only to such safeguards as are necessary in the public interest…”
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2020csoh68.pdf?sfvrsn=0
The question I’d ask is, are the fans considered to be interested stakeholders who deserve and have a right to be informed or just revenue streams who can be kept at arms length ?
easonablechap 29th July 2020 at 06:09
‘..I note that the recent arbitral award by CAS on Manchester City/UEFA has been made public, all 93 pages of it.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Yes, indeed: but again, only with the permission of all parties, or so it would seem from this:
“Tribunal Arbitral du Sport Court of Arbitration for Sport
Code of Sports-related Arbitration
In force as from 1 July 2020
“Statutes of the Bodies Working for the Settlement of Sports-Related Disputes
“S1 In order to resolve sports-related disputes through arbitration and mediation, two bodies
are hereby created:
• the International Council of Arbitration for Sport (ICAS)
• the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS)
…….
R43. CONFIDENTIALITY
Proceedings under these Procedural Rules are confidential. The parties, the arbitrators
and CAS undertake not to disclose to any third party any facts or other information
relating to the dispute or the proceedings without the permission of CAS. Awards shall
not be made public unless all parties agree or the Division President so decides…”
Since there appears to be no explicit mention that the Division President used his power to decide on the matter of disclosure in this case, the assumption is that all the parties had agreed to disclosure.
(This brings me back to Lord Clarke’s reservations about the extraordinary penalty powers that the SFA has to punish clubs who take a football matter to Court without the SFA’s permission.
If the Board of a private business organisation (such as the SPFL) were to act in an arbitrary way and in breach of, say, the Companies Act, against one of its members, can it be right that the SFA [ another private business organisation] should have the power to threaten the member with, ultimately, expulsion if it seeks redress in the Courts without the SFA’s permission?
I think that that Article really needs to be looked at again. It cannot be right that citizens/businesses can be allowed as a condition of membership of a business organisation to sign away their absolute right to the protection of Law!)
reasonablechap 29th July 2020 at 07:49
18)”…I accept entirely, as Mr Thomson submitted, that the media and the general public have a great interest in this dispute and would prefer to have the issues aired in open court. However, as a matter of law, the parties have agreed to the terms of SFA articles of association and to be bound by them…”
………………………….
Funny how these same parties had agreed to the terms of SFA articles of association that they are bound to state i believe that clubs should not take the governing bodies to court, but they did anyway
Cluster One 29th July 2020 at 11:26
‘..Funny how these same parties had agreed to the terms of SFA articles of association that they are bound to state i believe that clubs should not take the governing bodies to court, but they did anyway’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
That’s maybe a tad harsh, Cluster One.
It is entirely possible (and indeed it was done) to argue that a dispute over whether the board of a company was in breach of its statutory duties is not at all a football dispute even if the businesses in dispute are involved in the business of football.
It was therefore entirely reasonable for Hearts and PT to have initiated ‘pukka’, full legal action in the Courts without the permission of the SFA!( I wonder did they ask for permission and was it denied?)
The fact that, in the event, Lord Clarke was persuaded by the Responders to accept that the question before him was indeed a’ football dispute’ that the Court had no business hearing doesn’t imply that Hearts/PT were acting rashly or foolishly: just that they lost that particular legal argument.
They subsequently lost at the Arbitration Panel, presumably on the ‘merits’.
We have to assume ( despite the unseemly gleeful and self-congratulatory tone of the SPFL’s statement [ which put me in mind of the raised fists and yells of ‘YEEEESSS’ when dirty wee tykes are, to their own surprise, acquitted of drug dealing offences]) that all was properly and fairly done by a truly independent Arbitration panel with no stake of any kind in the outcome.
But it would do the SPFL a power of good if they and other parties agreed to allow publication of the whole judgment! ( they obviously don’t think so!)
If the clubs don’t like the way their business is being operated, or the structure of the board, they would have brought it up at the AGM.
I have not seen anything reported that they did. Did Hearts / Partick Thistle ? Stranraer for example propose any change. Either in the structure or the permanent members of the board.
‘..I note that the recent arbitral award by CAS on Manchester City/UEFA has been made public, all 93 pages of it.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
JC
Yes, indeed: but again, only with the permission of all parties, or so it would seem from this:
JC
But it would do the SPFL a power of good if they and other parties agreed to allow publication of the whole judgment! ( they obviously don’t think so!)
===========================================
Yes, it would need all parties to ok it but in the circumstances, why would any say no ?
The SPFL executive claim that the arbitral judgement provided ‘vindication’ and that there is absolutely nothing untoward to be seen. Why would they protest against the main root stakeholders (fans) being able to read the full judgement? If it is how they describe it, then it is clearly in their own interests to give a thumbs up to public release.
Just to add……
MacLennan:”I would fully expect all those involved to agree that no stone was left unturned, no allegation left unanswered,”
============
In that case…….I would fully expect all those involved to agree that the full detail of the arbitration hearing be made public.
Unlike LNS, the arbitration process is a legal mechanism undertaken under legal conditions, in a legal setting, in the name of the law. There is no appeal, therefore all arguments have been concluded and settled in law. No wrong-doing was found to have taken place, so that is the end of it.
At one stage compensation was mentioned, and I assume confidentially sensitive materials disclosed by some, or all of the parties, if it was required. I have no idea if it was.
However or for whatever reasons the law grants confidentiality, as a legal right to the parties involved. For whatever reason, whether the afore mentioned or not, the parties involved have agreed to it. In fact they were telt !…. By a real judge. There is little point bitching about it now, unless one wishes to lobby for a change in the law.
Headline from The DR;
“5 reasons Alfredo Morelos leaving Rangers could be backed by Steven Gerrard
…
Why would you want to sell your top scorer on the eve of the most important season in a generation?
It’s a question some Rangers fans have been asking as news of Lille’s interest in Alfredo Morelos begins to percolate…”
A prime example of a straightforward copy/paste PR job by an obedient, SMSM ‘journalist’.
This new TRFC PR ‘expert’ is just as subtle as the previous ‘expert’!
🙁
StevieBC 29th July 2020 at 15:53
Headline from The DR;
“5 reasons Alfredo Morelos leaving Rangers could be backed by Steven Gerrard
………………………..
You could file that alongside. SG never won anything but he brought back the smiles.
Always trying to put a positive on any bad news coming down from ibrox way.
So there we have it. The Arbitration process has been completed and the SPFL have been found to have done nothing unlawful or that contravened company law.
Proving prejudice was always going to a high bar to get over, and for Hearts, Thistle and Stranraer it was not to be.
What cannot be in doubt is that the resolution and the resulting effect on three clubs in particular was unfair. Even SPFL Board member Les Gray said so publicly. Various representatives from other clubs and within the game have voiced similar opinions and passed on their sympathies.
It is clear that players, managers and ex-players and managers (and indeed anyone who has played competitive sport) would have wanted the season to be played out. It is what happens on the pitch that should decide matches and a season or a cup, because sport can throw up all sorts of situations. There are plenty of examples of teams at the bottom of tables down south avoiding relegation after battling back to safety once football restarted.
It is of course the situation that perhaps starting back football in Scotland was a bit more difficult given that lockdown started a bit later than in England. Clearly there were issues with the changing of TV contracts from one deal to the new one with Sky. That perhaps meant flexibility that one would have thought should be available in unprecedented times was not available. But once again the concern is that we find our game being dictated by the TV companies.
However, it is of interest to note that Celtic just managed to play 5 games in 12 days and T’Rangers played 4 in 10. They even went abroad to do so. If there is a will to play – there is a way.
As we all know Hearts, Thistle and Stranraer did nothing wrong, they didn’t cheat, they didn’t cook the books, they didn’t give a bung to referees or play ineligible players. They merely found themselves at the bottom of the table at the time when football was suspended of the way by the pandemic.
As some on here have said, reconstruction would have been a possible and fair solution. I cannot see why a temporary reconstruction to deal with a (hopefully) temporary situation is so distasteful to some. If it was such a problem then what better time to look at a long discussed permanent change. What will it take for Scottish Football to finally review the situation? There is something wrong with the ‘Professional’ game in this country when major decisions can be partially based on whether or not Albion Rovers can afford the bus fare to Brora!!
Anyway, that boat has sailed and we are where we are. That place being one where a member’s organisation has voted to place the burden of the pandemic squarely on the shoulder of three clubs. Yes, others have maybe missed an opportunity of a play-off place and a couple of clubs have lost a bit of prize money but enforced relegation is really a sickner. If relegation was such a breeze, then why do we see so many clubs trying to avoid it with all their might over the course of a full season.
And for ‘taking one for the team’ what has been offered in mitigation? Absolutely Hee-Haw. No review of final prize monies to see if even a smidgeon of compensation could be offered to those being relegated in such unique circumstances. Or, as was the case in the Netherlands, not even a bung of a few quid to those who missed out on promotion play-offs in recognition of teams missing out. As I understand it only two swaps of position resulted from the points per game formula. Why did Hibs and St Johnstone not think to split the difference?
No, the vast majority took their money and ran while turning a blind eye to those fellow members losing out.
As Ross County’s Roy MacGregor has said Hearts should just “take their medicine”.
For some unknown reason that seems to be the attitude of many.
There has been an inordinate focus on Hearts and Ann Budge and very little comment regards Thistle who, were arguably, even harder done by given the points situation and game in hand.
I really have to wonder what Hearts and Budge have done to deserve this.
The club has no doubt made mistakes in terms of managerial appointments but, given the topic of Auldhied’s Blog, even Fergus McCann didn’t get it right appointing a relative rookie in Tommy Burns. It took a good few years for Celtic to get the right formula.
McCann came in to save a club who were at deaths door. Budge did the same.
McCann was criticised for focussing on developing Celtic Park instead of watching what was happening on the pitch. Budge has done the same at Tynecastle.
McCann’s idea was to increase fan ownership through shares issues. Budge is going the same way with Hearts and the Foundation of Hearts group.
McCann, who came across as a far more a prickly no nonsense character, had no time for the Footballing Authorities and called them out. Budge has done the same.
McCann put Celtic on a firm base on which it could succeed in the future. Even with enforced relegation Budge has ensured Hearts will rise again given the solid foundations she has laid.
The fans will be even more committed to the club. Hearts will still be the third best supported team in the country. The aims and objectives of fan ownership via the Foundation of Hearts will continue and come to fruition.
There will be no David Murray, Craig Whyte, Charles Green. Dave King shenanigans down Gorgie way. It will all be above board with the fans being kept abreast of matters in an open and transparent manner.
For the rest of Scottish Football will however continue with an inherent lack of trust in both its leadership and also how clubs now treat each other. The recent Whatsapp groups have shown a good amount of people speaking with forked tongues.
Be in no doubt that despite what is said in public, those running the game have no intention in letting the paying customer see how they manage their grubby deals.
In relation drawing a line under the Rangers EBT scandal Neil Doncaster said the following:-
“Football matters – and it probably matters more in Scotland than anywhere else in the world.
“In that environment, you have intense focus on every move you make and syllable you utter. You shouldn’t be surprised if you get criticism or scrutiny.
“That goes with the job, goes with the territory. That hasn’t surprised me and it doesn’t deter me.
“I think that’s why transparency and openness are the themes of this morning. I think the only way you can possibly try and draw a line under the events of the past is to understand precisely what happened.
“There is so much misunderstanding about everything that has happened involving Rangers over the past six years or so. That openness and transparency is, I think, important to trying to move on.
“We absolutely welcome dialogue with clubs and supporter groups. We welcome their questions and scrutiny of the legal opinion. We will be as open as we can.”
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/15436214.neil-doncaster-hopes-scottish-football-can-move-on-after-spfl-have-final-say-on-rangers-ebt-issue/
Nice words, however yet again, like the 5 Way Agreement, like the SPFL and SFA kicking the Res 12/Euro licence issue into the long grass we have yet another major decision, this time via Arbitration, made behind closed doors with not even a whiff of the much talked about openness and transparency.
MacLennan and Doncaster may be ‘delighted’ with the result of Arbitration but they are no further forward in explaining or justifying how and why we have got to where we are now.
Let’s not forget the SPFL even argued against allowing two of their own members to see papers and other information relevant to the case and had to do so kicking and screaming only after Lord Clark got involved.
If that’s how they treat their ‘football family’ what hope do we, the fans, have.
This time it was Hearts, Thistle and Stranraer. However, there will be a next time and it will probably end up being someone else in the firing line. Don’t be surprised if we end up going through another fiasco in the near future.
For those putting trust in the Arbitration process need to remember people can commit all sorts of crimes and other acts but still get away with it if the law and technicalities can’t pin it on you. The Arbitration decision simply implies that due process was followed. We have no detail if the Good Friday resolution was indeed the only way forward? What happened to the Dundee vote and what was said to Nelms? Was reconstruction (as part of the resolution), mitigation and compensation ever discussed? Were decent attempts made to try and get Sky to accommodate finishing the 19/20 season?
On my mobile app for the site it says:-
About Us
SFM is a community of football fans who want to see the game is Scotland run fairly and in a manner that befits true sporting endeavour.
Can’t say I’ve seen much of that on here over the last few months.
Its been fun while it lasted, and I thank everyone for their efforts , especially Big Pink and the Mods. Thanks to everyone for all the posts, banter, debates and even the disagreements. Everyday has indeed been a school day.
However, I think I’ve run my course in terms of posting on anything of a regular basis. I’ll keep looking in on you guys to see what is happening as it’s a hard habit to break. However, just now, I can’t see myself emerging from the shadows any time soon.
Best wishes to you all and I hope you all stay safe and healthy in these strange times.
Hopefully grounds will be full again sometime soon and we can see each other behind the goals!!
In relation drawing a line under the Rangers EBT scandal Neil Doncaster said the following:-
“..“There is so much misunderstanding about everything that has happened involving Rangers over the past six years or so. That openness and transparency is, I think, important to trying to move on…”
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Even more important to ‘moving on’ , of course, is a readiness to apologise for and UNDO any and every wrong that was done, and to investigate allegations of wrongdoing.
The “recognition” of TRFC as being RFC of 1872 and to allow it to proclaim itself deceitfully as being RFC of 1872 is such an offence to Truth, Sporting Integrity and plain common sense as to make a nonsense of any claim by either the SFA or the SPFL that truth and honesty is important.
Thanks Wottpi.
Insightful accurate and depressing.
SFM and Scottish Football needs Wottpis, Red Lichties, Easyjambos, Auldheids, Allyjambos, John Clarks, Danish Pastries, Bogsdolloxes, Brenda’s Clocks, Jean Brodies and countless others who care deep down and have shown the desire and ability to elevate the debate above the partizan nonsense that can predominate.
wottpi 29th July 2020 at 16:44
Excellent post. I can certainly align myself with your sentiments.
StevieBC 29th July 2020 at 15:53
Headline from The DR;
“5 reasons Alfredo Morelos leaving Rangers could be backed by Steven Gerrard
…
Why would you want to sell your top scorer on the eve of the most important season in a generation?
Because you already had serious money problems even before covid cut your income streams dramatically.
Because the people previously providing loans aren’t willing or able to do it any more.
Because you have deferred wages to come up with.
Because your income for the foreseeable future is down.
Because you have to.
wottpi 29th July 2020 at 16:44
‘..However, I think I’ve run my course in terms of posting on anything of a regular basis.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””
Well, I’m sure I’m not the only one who will miss your posts, wottpi!
I ,like you , have been a bit disappointed at the apparent lack of agreement on the blog that the SPFL made as much of an absolute bolloks of their approach to the pandemic as they did in their dealing with SDM’s/Whyte’s liquidated ‘Rangers’.
I suspect that there may have been fears that if the SPFL did not relegate, then neither could they declare league titles( groundless fears, in the event)
Stay safe and stay concerned about getting Scottish football governance back to integrity.
John Clark 29th July 2020 at 18:16
wottpi 29th July 2020 at 16:44
‘..However, I think I’ve run my course in terms of posting on anything of a regular basis.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””
Well, I’m sure I’m not the only one who will miss your posts, wottpi!
I ,like you , have been a bit disappointed at the apparent lack of agreement on the blog that the SPFL made as much of an absolute bolloks of their approach to the pandemic as they did in their dealing with SDM’s/Whyte’s liquidated ‘Rangers’.
I’m not really sure why a lack of agreement would “disappoint” you.
I for one think what you posted is inaccurate. To suggest that they made as much of a “bolloks” of recent events as they did with regards the Rangers situation to me is entirely wrong.
They put forward resolutions and took votes in relation to current events. Given the position with the Scottish Government rules and with the costs involved I think there was little choice but to finish the league. They tried for reconstruction in order to assist the clubs, and the other clubs rejected it. They did what they could as far as I can see.
They had much more choice with regards Rangers’ liquidation, however they entered into secret agreements to get Rangers what they wanted, if anything they supported (if only by ignoring it) the reality of the situation. They tried to force new Rangers into the top league, they tried to force them into the top division of the lower league.
Recent decisions, whether people like what they were or not, were much more with the consent of the majority of the members. It has now been unanimously decided, by an arbitration panel, that they did nothing wrong.
John Clark 29th July 2020 at 18:16
I suspect that there may have been fears that if the SPFL did not relegate, then neither could they declare league titles.
………………..
League titles were declared before any conclusion on relegation or promotion was decided. I don’t believe the two were linked JC
I’m sorry that you are choosing to not contribute wottpi. I agree that diverse voices are what makes this forum.
However that’s where my credits end. We must view the works as we find it not how we would like it to be. The decisions on restarting football are not in the gift of the football authorities and teams. Neither was the decision to stop.
As of now competitive football is allowed to resume in the Premiership from 1st Aug. That’s after a rigorous testing regime (no laughing!) clears players and coaches to train. That is unaffordable in lower leagues.
So when would Partick play out those remaining matches? There is no guarantee that there will be any football under the Prem in the rest of 2020. Personally I doubt it.
The curious thing about “stakeholders” is typically they actually don’t have a stake. The league clubs all have a share in the SPFL. Fans don’t, players don’t, neither do non league clubs. They are a trade body masked as a company. They set their own rules (within the context of company law). Change has to be made by getting the correct majorities. Why did Hearts and PT not get those?
We can weep for what could ah/should ah/would ah. It still doesn’t resolve how football resolved it’s problems in advance of the 3 Aug deadline for euro places. Or got 8 or so matches played to a conclusion in a country whose Govt didn’t allow competitive sport.
Homunculus 29th July 2020 at 19:23
‘…..I’m not really sure why a lack of agreement would “disappoint” you.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Because it showed an acceptability of the inflexibility of mind of a governance body to find a way to avoid penalising innocent clubs in a truly unforeseen situation when in the past that body was ready to be super-flexible in its support of the lie that TRFC is RFC of 1872.
Cluster One 29th July 2020 at 20:54
‘..League titles were declared before any conclusion on relegation or promotion was decided. I don’t believe the two were linked JC’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””
Not linked in reality, perhaps, but there was a move by one club which certainly was seen by some people myself included as being at least in part trying to re-open debate on whether the season should have been declared ‘null and void’
The way the ‘written resolution’ was being handled reinforced my belief that this SPFL Board would be capable of anything, including back-tracking on decisions already made.
John Clark 29th July 2020 at 21:48
And you are disappointed that everyone doesn’t agree with you on that? Surely you don’t think everyone will agree with everything. That would make the discussion pointless.
They tried to secure reconstruction, which would have achieved that end, it was the clubs who rejected it, not the governing body.
I find it rather disappointing that you think current events are as bad as what they did with regards Rangers. But again that’s just my opinion you clearly disagree.
Homunculus 29th July 2020 at 22:03
‘.I find it rather disappointing that you think current events are as bad as what they did with regards Rangers’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Ok, I’ll happily agree that ‘incompetent, inflexibility of mind’ in a time of pandemic panic is not on quite the same scale of UTTER BADNESS as is the accepting by the members of the SPFL and SFA of the deliberate deceit involved in the creation and propagation of the legal and sporting untruth that TRFC is Rangers of 1872 by RIFC plc.
Essentially, there is a lie at the heart of Scottish Football.
And our football governance people simply cannot be trusted, whatever the other issues, until that lie is acknowledged, apologised for, and Truth is told.
Oh wad Pow’r a giftie gie us.
Look !… Hearts were relegated because of their league position. So were Thistle and Stranraer. The divisions were called prematurely because people were dying, with the potential to accelerate that via contact sports and mass gatherings.
As a body the actions taken by the SPFL saved lives……Think about that !.
What followed the natural process of the curtailed season, was the natural process. Clubs won, clubs lost. Without doubt the SPFL decision not only saved clubs, by delivering funding, it prevented an acceleration of casualties from a despicable, and I hope, naturally occurring virus.
No malice was intended,by the curtailment, in fact quite the opposite, but malice was created. It was created not by the SPFL decision, but by lies from certain quarters, dodgy dossiers, poor statesmanship, and rabble rousing, after the fact. After the vote.
Plans for reconstruction were swayed, not in the interests of Scottish fitba’, but by a load o’ shite. Personalities clashed, battle lines were drawn, but it doesn’t alter the fact that what followed, was a load o’ shite. Proven shite !.
The SPFL decision to call the divisions prematurely, saved lives. That is an inarguable fact. Who, hand on heart, can say that contact sport and mass congregation could be allowed to continue?
The aftermath was not driven by the SPFL. It was driven by bullet-makers hiding in the newly dug trenches………But that wasn’t what the SPFL decision was about….. Not 9 in a row, not doon yeez go !
It was about saving lives !. Individuals who tried to make it about anything else should be ashamed of themselves for pouring poison in the water supply……There’s yir culprits right there. The tainters and the thirsty.
Personally I don’t care if a million rules were broken if it was to save one life. The facts are, that the rules were followed, and it saved a great many more.
wottpi 29th July 2020 at 16:44
even Fergus McCann didn’t get it right appointing a relative rookie in Tommy Burns.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Tommy Burns went through an entire league season losing only one game, and came close to winning the league. I may add that was against a Rangers who were backed by a Scottish owned bank way beyond a level they should have been. The very bank who tried all they could to put the final nail in Celtic’s coffin, and rid Scottish football of them forever. A comparison using Burns against the very poor appointments made by Anne Budge is ridiculous in my view.
Not everyone has to agree with the interpretation of events as described in recent posts but thankfully our footballing authorities took the decisions they did backed up and then led by the Government.
“We’ve got to have crowds” and “we must finish the season” have been common cries but think for a minute the likely result of doing that? Bluntly could I suggest that there would have been memorials outside football grounds around the country to all the fans, players and officials who lost their lives in the Great Pandemic of 2020!
To get it off my chest and being blunt again I believe Roy Macgregor has been given bad press for his honesty. Whilst nobody can be sure what would have actually happened if Ross County had been bottom of the league there is historical evidence to show he would have taken firm action with regards his manager(s) with no dithering about!
Looking to the future we have to hope a vaccine will be developed shortly but until one is available the risk is there that the upcoming season will be adversely affected by Covid-19 too. If reconstruction had been agreed for last season would we doing the same again in 2021?
All that said I agree that the relegation outcome for the clubs affected is rubbish!
Upthehoops @ 6.49am
100% correct in my opinion.
Aston Villa are surely pleased they don’t play in Scotland or they’d be in the championship and not as unfolded.
Our own blog from April 8th advised a fairer solution before any votes and any mayhem.
This is what is there in our archive, seems so long ago but we would have been in a better place.
Time for Cool Heads and Clear Thinking
The Scottish Football Supporters Association don’t profess to have all the answers and have no vested interests but here we have created a 3 point strategy that we feel will help guide Scottish Football to best ride this crisis and allow the real planning and budgeting at all clubs ahead of whatever is coming our way.
Parameter 1
This is Not a Time for Own Goals.
Covid 19 and the aftermath will cause enough financial hardship and stress to clubs and fans.
This is not a time to pitch clubs vs clubs or fans vs fans. And not a particularly good time to offer a possibility, of a possibility, of a possibility of reorganisation in time for Hearts and others not to get unfairly relegated.
Parameter 2
We Need an Interim Plan Where There Are no Losers
This could be a 1 year’s solution, possibly 2 at most, where every club (and fan) gets a positive post Covid 19 start allowing the best possible financial move into the new season 2020 – 2121 for all.
See our plan starter for ten below (insights and other plans welcome)
Parameter 3
Scottish Football Desperately Needs a Re-launch (But not in a manic rush)
How best should we set up our league structures to help our domestic and international game move into the future?
How do we look at an updated list of McLeish insights and incorporate them?
How do we involve the Scottish Government and the real stakeholders, the fans?
How do we capitalise on our football community for the greater good?
The recent surge of clubs coming into the fairly new pyramid system both in the Highland area but especially in the central and southwest regions is screaming out for a new and fairer framework.
Any long-term solution is likely to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary and grounded but it must be fit for purpose and fair for all from day 1 for all the members.
It has to work and be seen to work top down and bottom up.
Like Wottpi, whose post yesterday made refreshing reading on SFM, I have refrained from commenting until the Hearts/Partick Thistle process came to its conclusion.
Just as I haven’t moved on from the events of 2012, I won’t be moving on from this matter while many questions remain unanswered. For example:
Would the SPFL have ‘called’ the league while either Celtic or Rangers* were 4 points adrift at the foot of the table with 24 points still to play for? If that bottom of the table scenario is too difficult to envisage, would the SPFL have ‘called’ the league if Celtic or Rangers* were only four points ahead of the other at the top of the table with 24 points still to play for?
Those are of course rhetorical questions, because there would have been riots on the streets if the football authorities had the audacity to apply the same rules equally to all clubs. If you think the big two don’t have a rulebook to themselves, just ask yourself why the current club playing out of Ibrox is uniquely exempt from the disciplinary regime that applies to every other Scottish club, or why a computer managed to randomly select the perfect October date for the first Glasgow derby match of the new season at Celtic Park, or why referees openly talk of officiating at such matches ‘differently’.
If, as they acknowledged, the SPFL board thought that Hearts, Partick Thistle, Stranraer, Brora Rangers, Kelty Hearts etc were unfairly treated as a result of the cornavirus pandemic, why didn’t they simply tie mandatory reconstruction into the Good Friday vote in the same way that they guaranteed the passing of their proposal for ending the season early by linking it conditionally to the release of end of season payments?
As a Hearts fan, I was delighted to see my club take the squirming SPFL to court, but I have to hold my hands up to being extremely uncomfortable about involving Dundee Utd and the other promoted clubs in the action. I can only assume there were sound legal reasons for pursuing that particular avenue, and that the desired result would have seen the SPFL being forced into confirming those promotions while simultaneously cancelling relegations.
Celtic and Rangers* recently managed to play several pre-season friendlies within the space of just a few days, which begs the question, why couldn’t the 2019/20 season be played to a finish, even if it meant delaying the new season by a week or so? Many other leagues did so, including the EPL and Championship. If the SPFL is so tightly controlled by broadcasters that a little latitude isn’t available following an unprecedented pandemic, what does that say about Doncaster & Co as negotiators? Covid testing wouldn’t be an issue thanks to James Anderson’s philanthropic financial donation to every club in Scotland that equated to more than the cost of the testing equipment purchased by Ross County, as I understand it.
Finally, for those who keep churning out the line that Hearts/Partick Thistle/Stranraer were woeful on the pitch (no arguments from me there) and deserved to go down because they were in last place when the season was called early, here are some related facts I’ve copied from Kickback:
In England, Aston Villa were 4 points away from safety with only 4 games to go – and survived. Man Utd were 7 points behind Leicester with 8 games to go and finished 4 points ahead of them. Werder Bremen were 4 points adrift in the Bundesliga with 8 games to go – and survived. The bottom 5 teams in the English Championship with 9 games to go all survived. Last season in Scotland, St Mirren were 4 points adrift with 8 games to go – and survived (a matter that inexplicably escaped Tony Fitzpatrick when recently telling Hearts to suck it up because they could never have turned things around in the last 8 games…..when just 4 points behind!).
Extracted from a piece by Iain McMenemy ( Stenhousemuir) in today’s ‘The Scotsman’:
“….But let’s not kid ourselves; there were no winners in any of this. All that has been established is that the league rules weren’t broken when the decision to end the season was taken by clubs. Whether or not it was fair is another matter. What is beyond doubt I believe, is that the whole thing was poorly handled, badly executed and a total embarrassment for Scottish Football.
No one could have predicted a Covid-19 scenario. But it happened anyway. As a league body we should have been the first to react to protect our organisation and all of our members.
We failed to do so. We couldn’t find consensus to save ourselves from harm…
…Should we find ourselves in a similar [covid] scenario the infighting will start over…….This is where we need leadership. If one solution fails we need to find another. We need to do it now, before we get headlong into the season and before it gets personal…
..let’s not forget that 30 per cent of clubs supported recent calls for an independent investigation into the SPFL’s handling of the vote to end last season. The number disaffected is growing…. Let’s review how we go about our business and where change is needed let’s get it implemented…..”
The full article is a bit longer , of curse, but I think McMenemy has summed matters up in a way that I wish I had been able to do!
wottpi
I couldn’t agree more with what you say – except where you express your wish to go into lurking-only mode.
I share your disappointment that many (but certainly not all) of those who have expressed a desire for fairness and sporting integrity when the issue was the 5WA, EBTs or misregistration of players, have apparently had a Damscene conversion and restoration of faith in the authorities when it comes to what most of us perceive as unfairness – and an unnecessary unfairness at that.
Fans of RFC/TRFC have in the past – understandably – been keen to characterise the actions of their club as errors of judgement and not of wilful rule-breaking. Whilst there has been no rule-breaking in this instance, it is worth remembering that pretty much the same bunch of people (that is ALL of them) who turned a blind eye to the cheating that went on up to 2012, are now turning the same blind eye in the direction of the unfairness that has gone on with respect to Hearts, Partick Thistle, and Stranraer.
As a Celtic fan, my wish would have been for Celtic to take a principled stand on the injustice facing the aforementioned three clubs, but given (among other things) their attitude to LNS and their duplicity involving Res12, I can hardly pretend to be surprised.
I could say the same about almost very other club in the top tier, but criticism of those clubs for their inaction is hardly appropriate for me when my own club have acted in the way they have.
The basic outcome of this affair for me anyway is that despite it being obvious to all and sundry that football is a hugely interdependent undertaking, the one group of the demographic who haven’t accepted that are the people who run the clubs.
I hope wottpi, that you remain with the blog, because without folk like you, without folk who can see beyond partizan self-interest, then there is no space in the websphere for an SFM.
The answer to the trolls is to ignore them. No point engaging with someone whose cannot see past their own club self interest. Doesn’t make them bad people of course, but there is little point in engaging.
I think I speak for most of us when I say I hope you change your mind.
Interesting article in The Guardian;
“As implausible and preposterous as it may be, let’s imagine a post Covid-19 world where football fans are finally allowed back into Premier League grounds but elect en masse not to go.
…because after months spent locked out of stadiums match-going supporters have realised the importance of their role cannot be overstated and unilaterally opt to stay away until certain conditions are met…”
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/jul/29/imagine-fans-wielded-power-staying-away-grounds-reopen-fa-cup-final
The vote to call the league could have been rejected by 3 clubs in the Championship voting against, as nearly happened with Gardiner at ICT, Eric “solemn undertaking” Drysdale at Dundee and PT at the foot of the table , (and the really important conversation here is the one between Drysdale and Nelms regarding DFC’s original decision to vote against). That would have left the options of completing the fixtures, which at that time in the lockdown seemed remote, or null and void. Even had things unexpectedly improved with the pandemic, delaying tactics to prevent matches being played could have been effectively employed and would no doubt have been supported in the msm.
The decision to attach the financial package to the resolution was, I believe, an attempt to minimise the likelihood of a rejection, and the emergence of a null and void campaign. This has been typical of the modus operandum of the SPFL and SFA since 2012 at least. It appears to me to be the way Doncaster and McKenzie operate and on this occasion at least Peter Lawwell would have had an influence.
With the decision to call the league having been made, the reconstruction debate immediately became confounded by self interest. Probably only HMFC, PT, Stranraer and, one would have thought ICT, felt they would benefit.
The executive proposed by EJ above seems to me like a good idea. Firstly it would get rid of Doncaster at last, secondly it might improve the commercial performance and internal governance of Scottish football, and thirdly it might remove, or at least mediate, disproportionately influential vested interests, including those of CFC, the club I support. Those same interests are not going to allow it to happen though, at least not without pressure from other clubs and supporters.
9 in a row has been in the background throughout all this, 10 in a row will be next season. Perhaps the season after that positions will be less entrenched in Glasgow, but I doubt it. If clubs wish changes to be made this is the season to prepare, the time to talk and organise.
Any club that fails to comply with COVID testing requirements should be removed from all competitions immediately.
Big Pink 30th July 2020 at 13:54
I share your disappointment that many (but certainly not all) of those who have expressed a desire for fairness and sporting integrity when the issue was the 5WA, EBTs or misregistration of players, have apparently had a Damscene conversion and restoration of faith in the authorities when it comes to what most of us perceive as unfairness – and an unnecessary unfairness at that.
=======================================
Or people are using the notion of “play the ball not the man”.
It is entirely possible for a group of people to get something badly wrong, but then to get something else right. For people to support their action on one thing and not the other.
What would your solution have been, in order to be fair to everyone. Please don’t say reconstruction, they tried that and the clubs rejected it.
It was the only fair solution I could think of but clearly you have a better idea.
Oh and just when I am typing anyway, for the people saying that Celtic and Rangers have been playing friendlies so the season could have been finished on the park. I assume you mean that everyone else, all 42 clubs, could have played the remainder of their games behind closed doors, whilst following the rules as set by the Scottish Government.
macfurgly
Interesting observations there. The trouble is that there is no smoking gun in the timeline here. No hard evidence that anything illegal or untoward happened. Consequently, the accusations from the likes of English about what ‘must have happened’ are hollow. Not saying I don’t think there were immoral goings-on, but in the absence of an accurate interpolation, extrapolation is all we were left with. Consequently, the focus of the strategy to minimise damage to Hearts, Thistle and Stranraer should have been centred on the unfairness of the outcome and on a blueprint to mitigate that – not a full frontal attack on guys who knew that they were legally in a safe place.
To me, that was the mistake they made. They got caught up in the emotion of the amoral way they were shafted, and it became personal for many of them. I think Rangers opportunistically jumped on that bandwagon because it gave them cause to throw around innuendo and make what ultimately became a failed powerplay.
The same goes with accusations of Lawwell exerting undue – and nefarious – influence over the rest. Lawwell’s job is not to look after the interests of Celtic though. It is to look after the interests of Dermot Desmond. I would argue (and I acknowledge that it is subjective) that the two only occasionally coincide.
Given Lawwell’s answer to the Res12 guys at the Celtic AGM (when asked about having sight of the 5WA agreement), I would have trouble believing him if he told me there was a ‘C’ in Celtic. So when he claims he has no special influence on the SPFL (or others claim that on his behalf), I am sceptical. I reckon he does have influence incommensurate with his voting power, but again, I’m only extrapolating from what I know about him, with no recourse to evidence.
Of course I am keen to see Celtic lift the title next season, but I must confess to having the feeling that Celtic have lost a bit of their soul over the last eight years – and I would prefer that they had retained that even it meant TIAR remaining a pipe dream.
TIAR is after all a fleeting achievement, a snapshot. Standing up for sporting integrity on the other hand, actually making a stand on its behalf, that would have been a huge legacy. But they failed to grasp that opportunity.
They failed to call out the cheating, they failed to be truthful to their own fans who spend thousands of pounds of their own cash to try to achieve what it was their (the club’s) duty to achieve. They failed to rally round the three clubs who were unjustly punished.
Of course, when they do not act in their own self-interest (over the cheating and the licence scandal), it is hardly surprising that they would act when they had no self interest to satisfy.
I think EJ’s idea for a reconstituted board is one most football fans would support, but I don’t think there’s a snowball’s chance that the clubs would cede that much power to people working in the interests of the game.
We can but hope though 🙂
Big Pink 30th July 2020 at 17:38
‘..Standing up for sporting integrity on the other hand, actually making a stand on its behalf, that would have been a huge legacy. ‘
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Yes, in the face of the evidence of the EBT sports cheating indulged in by SDM , Celtic plc should have got real about what the RES 12 resolutioners had unearthed, and it is to Celtic’s abiding shame that they did not absolutely demand, DEMAND a full, independent investigation, calling in the Police if necessary.
A really independent investigation might have reassured us all that Hampden was not a modern day equivalent of the Augean stables
Celtic’s failure to insist on such investigation leaves the suspicion that our game is still at heart rotten, and that there are people still involved in Scottish Football who may have got away with a crime; and tarnishes the Celtic board with the mark of moral cowardice and/or as greedy, grasping individuals as little interested in Sporting Integrity as any board that ever sat at the top of the marble staircase.
I notice that Michael Stewart has not been yes-man enough of a yes-man for BBC Scotland sports chiefs’
This is from the online DR. (now I have to go and wash my hands, of course)
“.The BBC has revealed its Sportscene line-up for the Premiership’s big return – and there’s no place for Michael Stewart.
Steven Thompson has been installed as the new host of the Sunday show, with Jonathan Sutherland leading Saturday’s broadcast.
They’ll be joined by guests Marvin Bartley, James McFadden, Craig Gordon, Shelley Kerr, Julie Fleeting and Shaun Maloney.
The shows will feature coverage of every top-flight fixture as competitive football returns following a five-month absence.
That includes Rangers ‘ trip to Pittodrie on Saturday afternoon and Celtic hoisting the league flag at home to Hamilton the following day.
Regular contributor Stewart, however, will not be among the pundits this weekend.
He’d only returned from a ban back in February having been taken off-air following a blast at former Rangers PR Jim Traynor.”
confirmation that there is no genuine freedom of expression and opinion on football matters on Pacific Quay.
John C,
Of course at the heart of this, if indeed Stewart is being edged out, is the stark reality that having an opinion critical of Rangers is enough to threaten your livelihood.
I sincerely hope it is not the case, because if it is based on some kind of professional assessment, the notion that Thompson (and I mean no disrespect to him) is a better broadcaster than Stewart is as ludicrous as it gets.
JC
The bold Michael has, I believe, joined the Premier Sports Team as co-commentator of Celtic games thereon.
Change of subject by way of light relief!
I think I have mentioned before the difficulties I have had in corresponding with the FCA? Most recently
I had emailed on June 30, and receipt of that was ( automatically) acknowledged on the same day, with the automatic ‘we aim to reply within 5 days’ pious aspiration!
I emailed a wee short reminder very early this morning, remarking that something more than 5 days had elapsed and could I expect an early reply.
I got an early reply- it came in at 12.38 this afternoon!
“Complaints Scheme complaints@fca.org.uk
To:(me)
Cc:
Complaints Scheme
Thu, 30 Jul at 12:38
Dear …
Thank you for your email and apologies if my previous correspondence has not been clear.
In order to reconsider my decision on your complaint I would need to see the original emails, which you can send to me as attachments (as opposed to forwarding them). This would allow me to reconsider my decision on your complaint that your correspondence was ignored by the FCA. However, your concerns about Rangers International Football Club are not something we can consider under the Complaints Scheme. The Scheme is in place to deal with complaints that arise from the exercise of or failure to exercise, any of the FCA’s relevant functions. This is set out in paragraph 1.1 of the Scheme and Part 6 of the Financial Services Act 2012 (https://www.fca.org.uk/publication/corporate/complaints-scheme.pdf). As your concerns relate to the actions of a regulated firm, it would not be considered one of the FCA’s relevant functions.
Although this cannot be investigated under the Scheme, I explained in my decision letter of 11 May 2020 that I had passed your correspondence about Rangers International Football Club to the FCA’s Supervision Hub, the area that deals with general consumer and firm correspondence. They confirmed that the information you provided would be reviewed and, if necessary, passed onto the relevant team within the FCA to form part of their supervisory work. Due to confidentiality and policy restrictions, I am unable to tell you what action, if any, is taken as a result of this. Further information can be found here – https://www.fca.org.uk/freedom-information/information-we-can-share/.
If you have any questions or would like to discuss this further, please feel free to call me on 02070669870.
Alternatively, if you are unhappy with my decision, you have the option to refer your complaint to the Complaints Commissioner. His contact details can be found in my previous correspondence.
Yours sincerely
C.. K.
Associate / Complaints Team / Risk & Compliance Oversight Division
Financial Conduct Authority
12 Endeavour Square
London
E20 1JN
Tel: +44 (0)20 7066 9870
http://www.fca.org.uk
Here is my reply:
To:
Complaints Scheme
Thu, 30 Jul at 15:34
Dear Ms K…
That was a quick response, and I thank you for it.
So, the FCA need not respond to complaints from the public that it may itself have acted in breach of the law and no one can complain?
Sounds like a wonderful place to work, where one would be safe to act unlawfully without being hauled up for it.
It wouldn’t happen in the pukka Civil Service!
Anyway, thank you personally for your efforts.
I shall now leave you in peace and withdraw, crushed and dispirited, while hoping that if any officer of the FCA did in fact knowingly breach his statutory duty he will have no peace and will ,sooner or later, come to career grief.
Cheers,
(me)
[ this is not part of my reply: ‘crushed and dispirited’ ? Ha, ha, no way!
I shall try another approach by and by.
I mean, whoever heard the like, an organisation which can’t deal with complaints that its officers may have been in breach of the organisation’s statutory duties?
My reference to the ‘pukka ‘ Civil Service is because the FCA is NOT part of HM’s home Civil Service, being funded by the business world, and is only very, very loosely answerable to Parliament and to you and me.]
Highlander 30th July 2020 at 12:42
Would the SPFL have ‘called’ the league while either Celtic or Rangers* were 4 points adrift at the foot of the table with 24 points still to play for? If that bottom of the table scenario is too difficult to envisage, would the SPFL have ‘called’ the league if Celtic or Rangers* were only four points ahead of the other at the top of the table with 24 points still to play for?
…………….
First Minister Nicola Sturgeon advised that events of more than 500 people should be cancelled. The Scottish Professional Football League acted on this advise. The Scottish Football Association has suspended all domestic professional and grassroots football until further notice as a result of the coronavirus pandemic.The Scottish FA Board made its decision in the interests of the health and safety of players, match officials, staff, supporters and the general public
Like the cancelling of the Glasgow derby, it had to be done. No matter where any team may or may not have been in the league. the league would still have to have been called. would you have expected the SPFL and the SFA to turn round and say hold on a minute Nicola Sturgeon can you give us a week or two more to play some games as the gers are near the bottom and could get relegated if the leagues are called now.. They HAD NO CHOICE TO CALL THE LEAGUE no matter what club may have been in what position.
……………………………
Celtic and Rangers* recently managed to play several pre-season friendlies within the space of just a few days,
…………….
Friendlies are played to get fitness back. would you expect the clubs to come straight out of lockdown into competative games. even these friendlies have been hit by set backs and cancellations. THERE WAS NO TIME FOR COMPETATIVE GAMES TO BE PLAYED IN SCOTLAND. And not enough tests or test equipment for competative games to be played.
Big Pink 30th July 2020 at 17:38
This is all very subjective, but:
Is there a need to find a smoking gun?
I do not believe that Lawwell was blindsided on the 5WA. That is not credible, therefore Celtic are complicit and I agree that tarnishes the soul of the club. Regarding the cheating and the licence issue, I suspect, based on no evidence whatsoever, that Celtic did a deal with UEFA, received adequate compensation and Lawwell has been stonewalling ever since, which in my view is not good either.
As for 10 in a row, I am coming to a weary acceptance that the best thing is to get it done and out of the way so that once it is recorded in perpetuity in the record books, (for what they are now worth), then perhaps the air will clear, the dust will settle and in a less tense atmosphere a freshening breeze will blow through the game as the storm fades away from the west. With the red herring of total trophies won hoving into view perhaps not, but how long will PL remain? How long will DD remain? Doncaster? If there is a latent desire for change among other clubs, and principally among SPFL clubs, then season 21/22 offers the best opportunity. If such a desire does not exist, then it’s on like this forever, which to me seems like a continuing slow decline into European irrelevance.
I am not sure about amorality here. Regarding the vote to close the season, I don’t like it, it seems sneaky in the same way that Governments attach controversial clauses to otherwise innocuous legislation, to slip them through, but it’s no more than that. I’m not convinced about unfairness either. Pretty much everyone will agree that Thistle have been unfortunate because of the game in hand, but they were bottom. Regarding HMFC, with 4 wins and 6 draws in 30 matches it is possible to complain too much. Budge and Levein made a mess of it, (and I have none of the cultural antipathy towards them implied on here some time ago, I used to enjoy going to Tynecastle to watch the likes of Thomson, Anderson, Brown, Ford etc.), and with the possibility of playing the remaining games remote they go down, as do Stranraer. They were bottom. That’s fair, surely, when a decision had to be made. It may or may not be be that this was arranged by a self interested few, but it was ratified by all.
If this had been perceived to be unfair, then reconstruction would have been the way to go. I would like to see a 14 team top league, mainly because the old so called meaningless games were when young players got a chance, as there was not the current fear of relegation throughout at least half the division, but when it was proposed it was shot before it got out of the traps. Again, there is now perhaps a chance to consider it in a less fevered environment, and to develop something that will gain the necessary support. Do the majority of SPFL clubs really want to keep playing Russian roulette?
Regarding English’s frenzied tilting at the SPFL, I would listen to him if I had seen any evidence of him saying the same things in 2012, which I have not.
I try to remain optimistic, but it’s difficult at the moment.
Ps. UEFA want all leagues that can be completed by Aug 3, as the scottish top flight can only be deemed to be safe to begin by Aug 1 that would leave just a couple of days to complete thousands of tests and eight or nine games each for every club.
StevieBC 30th July 2020 at 14:08
Interesting article in The Guardian;…because after months spent locked out of stadiums match-going supporters have realised the importance of their role cannot be overstated and unilaterally opt to stay away
………………….
Stay away and have found other interests. Something we have spoken about on SFM some months ago.
Cluster One 30th July 2020 at 23:39
Ps. UEFA want all leagues that can be completed by Aug 3, as the scottish top flight can only be deemed to be safe to begin by Aug 1 that would leave just a couple of days to complete thousands of tests and eight or nine games each for every club.
===================================
Indeed
Furthermore the SPFL is not just the top division, it is all four divisions. If UEFA wanted leagues completed by that time then it would have meant all 42 clubs completing their games behind closed doors. Not just the Premiership.
The league was finished with the agreement of the majority of the clubs in it because there really wasn’t another option. Most clubs could not even have done the necessary testing, far less afforded to play the games with little or no income.
If you have a Postman as your centre back how often do you need to test him before you can allow the game to go ahead on the Saturday. When does he have to stop doing his rounds and self-isolate to allow that. Who pays him during that self-isolation, who does his “day job”.
People talking about team playing friendlies, therefore the games could be played are missing the point, the league is not the top clubs, it is all 42.
Am I not right in saying that whilst the top division intends starting this weekend, the lower divisions won’t be and that they are looking a couple of months down the line. We have one league, but four divisions, the difference between the top and bottom is enormous.
macfurgly 30th July 2020 at 23:36
‘..Regarding English’s frenzied tilting at the SPFL, I would listen to him if I had seen any evidence of him saying the same things in 2012, which I have not”
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
You and me both, macfurgly.
Apart from Mark Daly’s tv documentary about the EBT cheating, not a single journalist based in Scotland has undertaken any serious journalistic work into the whole Res 12 business, the 5-Way Agreement, the apparent dishonesty of the RIFC plc prospectus, the collapse of the trials (of various kinds) of people associated with RFC/ TRFC, the suggestions made from time to time in various court proceedings, etc etc.
They have all either been shut up under threat, or are ‘succulent lamb eaters’ and temporisers with Truth.
Bad cess to them all!
Cluster One 30th July 2020 at 23:49
StevieBC 30th July 2020 at 14:08
Stay away and have found other interests. Something we have spoken about on SFM some months ago.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Celtic have just had record season ticket sales.
Through all the calls on here as to what could have been done to ensure a fair end to the Covid hit season there is one consistent – reconstruction. It is the outcome that would have been my preference but please do not let us ignore the facts in the failure to have it implemented. There was only one person/club that publicly put restrictions on the consideration of that. Sure, many privately would have objections, but in these unprecedented times a blank page was required to encourage the opening of minds in the discussion. I find it strange that those that would suffer most are the very ones opposed to that blank page.
Highlander@12:42
“As a Hearts fan, I was delighted to see my club take the squirming SPFL to court, but I have to hold my hands up to being extremely uncomfortable about involving Dundee Utd and the other promoted clubs in the action. I can only assume there were sound legal reasons for pursuing that particular avenue, and that the desired result would have seen the SPFL being forced into confirming those promotions while simultaneously cancelling relegations.”
The gist of all the comments here is to look for a fair outcome unfortunately being “uncomfortable” does not mitigate the fact that including the promoted teams in the action was to reverse those promotions not to force the SPFL’s hand. No-one goes to court with a stated aim in their case with the hope that the court ignores that aim and instead reads the complainants mind and gives an outcome not on the petition.
The court action from the off was one that flew in face of any fairness.
Mickey Edwards
I find it somewhat ironic that it was during a radio interview with Mr “Move On” that the blank page was spoiled!
Even more ironic that following scrutiny by 3 unimpeachable legal individuals who have confirmed that the SPFL, on this occasion, followed the rules agreed by the organisation the same Mr “Move On” seems unwilling to accept it unless he is allowed to scruntise the evidence himself!
The BBC needs to tell Mr “Move On” to apologise to all those he suggested were truth twisters and carry out an indepth review of its, I would suggest, damaging and rabble rousing output during lock down.
adam812@09:28
Can I say firstly that I am completely in tune with your earlier posts and we seem to be of a like mind on the situation.
If you mean Tom English as Mr Moveon then again I totally agree. One thing is stuck firmly in my mind that is his comment to Michael Stewart on Sportsound after the Budge interview. Stewart questioned some of Budge’s comments and English responded with “Are you calling Ann Budge a liar?”. It struck me that he did so when the whole gist of his reporting was to call Doncaster a liar. For me Doncaster has been party to a lot of wrong doing and mismanagement in Scottish football but while we are stuck with him the best we can do is hold him to account. That means we also do not take part in unfounded accusations and that is what the whole promotion/relegation farce is. The arbitration process was not of the LNS type and found in favour of the SPFL’s actions.
I also believe that to remove Doncaster would be to change nothing, he would be replaced like for like. What is needed is a complete change of the whole administrative structure. For me the replacement should see the separation of powers with the SPFL replacement having only involvement in the business side. It would be answerable to the SFA replacement in all else. That would include fixture dates and times and in any negotiations with TV companies the SPFL replacement would have no power to sell away these things.
But how we see any changes is the $64,000 question. It is beyond my ken how we do that.
Mickey Edwards
Yes you’ve got the right man!
From the About SFM page on this site
The cosy relationship that has existed, and continues to exist between the media and people at the top of Scottish Football has dissuaded those who may otherwise be moved to blow the whistle on wrongdoing…..
We have sought to ask the questions in public which are often not asked by a mainstream media which has become in our view merely a broadcaster of PR issued by the financial and other vested interests within the sport. By doing so we believe that information is now in the public domain which otherwise would not.
===========================
So now we have the general targetting of a journalist (Tom English).
He hasn’t looked for cosy relationship with the heid yins in the Scottish football authorities but has very much looked to hold power to account. For some, that is a highly hypocritical stance to take and one that goes against what is written on the tin of the SFM.
We even have a poster mocking him for looking to have the arbitration judgement published (in the public interest) so as to provide transparency and thus a more solid platform to move-on from.
Self-Interest (clubs/PLCs) and Tribalism (fans) dominate throughout the Scottish game, from the authorities board rooms to messageboards (including this one). Easyjambo’s suggestion would be a start for the Scottish game, to swim against what will be an ever stonger current. However, realism has me sharing his pessimism for the future of the game.
The SPFL and it’s lack of leadership is failing the Scottish game on various levels. A third of it’s members wanted an investigation of them. There is no league sponser and TV deals have been paying relative buttons for too long, but they do pay extremely well for failure and don’t seem to do accountability.
But hey, let’s forget all that and go after the journalist who is actually on their case.
ps. twitter thread that has a critical take on SPFL marketing
https://twitter.com/alexmarr98/status/1288578645926318081
Reasonablechap
Michael Stewart was taken off air for telling the truth. Tom English having told those of us concerned about the cover-up of earlier concerns re our footballing authorities to move on listened to the conspiracy thearists and poured scorn on responses from the SPFL week after week. The fact that he is still seems unwilling to be admit the SPFL acted within the rules and that it is time to move on is the most disappointing thing.
The SPFL are far from perfect but the lynch mob going after Neil Doncaster was unedifying.
Granted he has done some great interviews with a variety of sports people but I’m not so sure as a journalist. Can we really trust the accuracy of his stories when he persists in calling Murdoch MacLennan MacLellan? Is this to deliberately antagonise?
“So now we have the general targetting of a journalist (Tom English).”
Targeting as in the banning of a BBC reporter from Ibrox, or forcing a public apology from another who reported that no offer for Morelos was placed from China, or how about demanding an apology from Michael Stewart for being honest about Jabba, and of course there was the case of two Herald journalists who were involved in honestly reporting goings on inside the Ibrox boardroom. That is targeting.
But then again, as is your wont, you over exaggerate a description of comments on Tom English. Targeting is an emotive word that fits well with your intentions much more than the accurate word criticising.
Other words that we should read on here are disruptive, divisive, deflective, argumentative, persuasive and insightful should you be succeeding with your intentions on here. Unfortunately if you perceive yourself as succeeding with these attempts then we need to include one more word – delusional. The truth of the matter is that more appropriate words are futile, dishonest, deflective and corrosive.
An independent arbitration panel has looked at all of the material, presumably taken evidence from witnesses, carried out whatever investigations which were required and unanimously agreed that the SPFL did nothing wrong. Well insofar as the accusations made against them.
People called for an independent investigation. It has now been done, you have your result.
People are now saying that is not satisfactory because they themselves have not seen all of the papers, looked at all of the evidence. However in Scotland arbitration is a confidential process, not in some nebulous way, confidential because the relevant act makes it so.
So we now have, “but it’s in the public interest”. I’m afraid “in the public interest” and “of interest to the public” are not the same thing.
There is a good argument to say that what is “in the public interest” is for these things not to be released, as to do so would reduce people’s faith in the confidentiality of the arbitration process. A process which is there for a reason.Some football reporter / supporter demanding to see confidential documentation is not as important to the public as maintaining the integrity of the process.
reasonablechap 31st July 2020 at 12:04
‘..But hey, let’s forget all that and go after the journalist who is actually on their case.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””
My strictures against English and the SMSM in general is that he and they are very, very selective in what they choose to ‘investigate’ and ‘report’ upon.
As sport journalists they have been little more than (hopefully, unpaid) PR people for the biggest lie in Scottish Football by not insisting that the Governance bodies should make it absolutely clear that TRFC are Not RFC, and that they ought publicly to forbid them to claim to be so or to market themselves as such.
English is as much an Ibrox ‘yes-man’ as the worst of them, and what he has to say on any subject is as worthless as any utterances of the Ibrox board.
After all the off field shambles in recent weeks/months, we actually get back to league football tomorrow.
Whatever our gripes with clubs and/or Hampden, it seems that nothing is going to significantly change or improve in the short to medium term.
So, now we can get back to the “quality of the product”.
Without fans in the stadium creating an atmosphere – football is indeed nothing without the fans. It’s painfully obvious, and try as I might, I have yet to watch a closed doors game from start to finish.
But, that is hopefully a temporary restriction to enjoying the game.
And that leads onto the match officiating standards.
The ‘Referees’ Summit” was held in Perth with SPL managers and the SFA to discuss poor standards. That was in January last year: over 18 months ago.
Has anything changed since then?
Is anything changing this season WRT improving match officials’ standards and decision making?
At one end of the Scottish senior game we have fundamental issues with governance: no easy fix, no political will from the clubs, and the problems will remain for the duration.
At the other end of the spectrum, we have the management of the games. Relatively speaking: a much easier fix, there is/was political will from the clubs – so why have the paying customers not been informed of what has been actioned since the “Referees’ Summit”?
And what about VAR…?
No, it’s certainly not perfect, but is Scottish football just to pretend it doesn’t exist?
Is there scope to implement the VAR-lite version – used in leagues like Cyprus, Portugal – to help our match officials improve?
I know… 🙁
reasonablechap 31st July 2020 at 12:04
So now we have the general targetting of a journalist (Tom English).
He hasn’t looked for cosy relationship with the heid yins in the Scottish football.
…………………….
But will have a pop in the press at someone if requested to do so.
…..
but has very much looked to hold power to account.
… still waiting on his big articles on the granting of rangers euro licence and Res 12 issue.
……………………………………
But hey, let’s forget all that and go after the journalist who is actually on their case.
…
Wake me up when he gets on their case for everything and not just the one subject that he backed the wrong side on and is trying to save face.
……………………..
ps. twitter thread that has a critical take on SPFL marketing
https://twitter.com/alexmarr98/status/1288578645926318081
……..
The Tread lost all credability the minute English retweeted it and they came out with this cracker.
Alex Marr
@alexmarr98
·
29 Jul
Level 6:
Foreign Broadcasting Rights #1:
Despite the SPFL having its biggest star (arguably) be a Colombian, Alfredo Morelos, the league never sold its rights to that country. With his transfer to Lille, the SPFL has now completely lost the chance to gain an audience in South America.
…….. Biggest Star how? The guy has left the field of play more times than the ball. Has scored once all year.
With his transfer to Lille? What transfer, he is still at ibrox.
…
the SPFL has now completely lost the chance to gain an audience in South America.
…
Really missed the boat there. Aye right, morelos has been touted for a move ever since he stepped in the door at ibrox, the player himself even said he wants to play in a bigger league, if his valuation had been half realistic he may have already have gone by now.
Cluster One
When you say players would be unfit to restart playing matches from the earliest date permissible by the Scottish Government, I personally would prefer league positions to be determined following matches featuring semi-fit players than being decided via mere guesswork, which, at the risk of labouring a point, would’ve seen Aston Villa, Werder Bremen, St Mirren last season, amongst others, incorrectly and unfairly relegated. Which method do you find more acceptable, playing matches or having a hunch?
Furthermore, there might be no need to complete all eight or nine remaining games to establish final league positions with 100% accuracy, since two or three games may be all that would be required to enable Celtic to be mathematically certain of being crowned Champions (I’ll leave the arithmetic to others), Motherwell and Aberdeen to guarantee their UEFA spots and Hearts or whoever to be relegated, thus removing all doubt whilst simultaneously removing the threatening power of the fabled asterisk. I’m sure UEFA would be obliging if indicative nominations were proposed for their competitions, given the unprecedented circumstances.
Before someone mentions that all clubs signed up to ending the season early, it’s worth pointing out that there is a world of difference between the need to finish the season, however long it takes, and a need to finish the season without affecting the precious new and seemingly non-negotiable broadcasting deal. It beggars belief that the SPFL is prepared to move the goalposts part-way through a season rather than complete that season and make appropriate adjustments to the season which hasn’t yet started! Surely it’s not beyond the £388,000 pa Chief Executive to negotiate a favourable deal with the same broadcaster who has allowed the EPL to delay the start of their new season to the 12th September without penalty?
Mickey Edwards
It may surprise you to know that I was not apprised by Hearts’ QC of the legal technicalities involved in the recent court case and subsequent arbitration, but was simply showing some contrition for the actions brought against the promoted clubs. Similarly, I don’t have any insider knowledge as to why Ann Budge exercised her right to change her mind on the permanence or otherwise of league reconstruction, or any other matter, just as I wouldn’t expect you to be able to explain on Ron Gordon’s behalf why he appears to have backtracked on not signing any new players until all of Hibs’ deferred wages have been repaid. Forgive me if I’ve misunderstood.
In general
It still bemuses me that an acknowledged failing by our football authorities can be brushed off as insignificant when it doesn’t drastically impact either of the big two, explained away on the basis that a majority of member clubs voted for it, yet here we are, almost eight years after Rangers went into liquidation and 100% of member clubs have provided tacit approval for the club continuity myth, but that is somehow different and it is acceptable to continue highlighting it. For the purposes of clarity, I’m not in any way suggesting we should abandon the fight to report the death of a cheating club, merely that we should stop employing double standards.
If we are to believe the SMSM, Morelos is ‘just about to sign’ for a new club, whether Lille, West Brom or whoever.
In this ‘imminent’ scenario the player concerned is – typically – excluded from playing until a transfer deal is concluded, or not.
So, Morelos shouldn’t be anywhere near the TRFC squad in Aberdeen tomorrow. You would think?
However, if he is included tomorrow then we’ll all know for sure that Morelos is not going to be leaving Ibrox any time soon.
…and it would be further validation that the SMSM is just doing what it always does: obediently copying/pasting Ibrox, PR mince… 🙁
Highlander 31st July 2020 at 17:45
What about the clubs in the lower divisions of the SPFL, particularly the part time clubs with part time players, players with other jobs.
Could they have afforded the testing and playing games without any income. Could their players have placed themselves in isolation after getting a negative test result, up until the games had been played. What would their employers have thought about that.
You are comparing Scotland to England, an extremely poor league to arguably the richest in the World. They could afford the testing, the quarantine, their players are full time and don’t have other jobs to worry about. The vast majority of their income is apparently from broadcasting not from ticket sales. They also are working to the UK rules, the Scottish clubs are working to the Scottish rules. They could go back to playing, albeit behind closed doors, sooner.
The leagues was finished because that was the only real option at the time.
Re – “It still bemuses me that an acknowledged failing by our football authorities can be brushed off as insignificant when it doesn’t drastically impact either of the big two …”
Your argument is that Hearts could have avoided relegation, fair enough. Rangers could have been crowned champions and secured a Champions League spot with the possibility of earning tens of millions of pounds. How exactly are the unaffected.
Oh and it may be acknowledged by some people however that is not universal. They did what they could under the circumstances. They even tried to implement the sensible remedy, the clubs rejected it. Hearts played their part in the rejection.
Highlander 31st July 2020 at 17:45
Cluster One
When you say players would be unfit to restart playing matches from the earliest date permissible by the Scottish Government, I personally would prefer league positions to be determined following matches featuring semi-fit players than being decided via mere guesswork,
……………………..
And what if a semi-fit player pulls a hamstring and is out for months, or gets an injury because he is not fully fit. Would you be willing (oops sound a bit like Mel Gibson there) willing to compensate the club for the semi fit player that got an injury because you wanted to see him play fit or not?
…………………………..
Furthermore, there might be no need to complete all eight or nine remaining games to establish final league positions with 100% accuracy, since two or three games may be all that would be required to enable Celtic to be mathematically certain of being crowned Champions.
……………………..
Might is like if. Celtic win after playing two or three games, second and third is not secured yet keep playing. They could not fit two or three games anywhere and HOPE that second and third don’t drag on.
………………………
I’m sure UEFA would be obliging if indicative nominations were proposed for their competitions, given the unprecedented circumstances.
…
They were obliging by saying all leagues to be complete by Aug 3.
…………………………..
a favourable deal with the same broadcaster who has allowed the EPL to delay the start of their new season to the 12th September without penalty?
…………………………
The EPL was able to start back and play games they now have a rest before they start their New season. The broadcaster may have allowed the new season to start later because it’s contracted deal for the previous season was delivered.
Highlander
“I was not apprised by Hearts’ QC of the legal technicalities involved in the recent court case and subsequent arbitration, but was simply showing some contrition for the actions brought against the promoted clubs.”
I totally accept that but your comment –
“I can only assume there were sound legal reasons for pursuing that particular avenue, and that the desired result would have seen the SPFL being forced into confirming those promotions while simultaneously cancelling relegations.”
appears to be an acceptance that there could be good reason to drag the other teams into the fray. Also, you are intelligent enough to realise that the only positive outcome for the relegated teams would be to win what their submission was written to achieve, no promotion of the teams named.
I must make one more point –
” I don’t have any insider knowledge as to why Ann Budge exercised her right to change her mind on the permanence or otherwise of league reconstruction”
but you speak with apparent authority on why the SPFL and the other clubs relegated your team.
These are extraordinary times and in all spheres of our life the proportion of losers to winners has increased radically. Most have no way of turning things around and are left trying to make the best of a bad lot. So it is with the relegated teams. My point has always been that your club’s executive has not acted fully in the best interests of the club. She had the opportunity to persuade the other clubs to enter into a reconstruction but immediately alienated one section by introducing conditions. It was probably an impossible task anyway but she guaranteed it would be so.
I think a great deal of the belief in Budge from the Hearts fans is based around her involvement with bringing the club out of administration and rightly so. Unfortunately, it is blinding them to the damage she has been doing. The persisting with the failing Levein involvement not just for one season too long but many. The over running costs of the new stand, a project the management exercise that was awarded to a family member who had no experience in a venture of that scale. Through it all a number of dates for hand over to FOH were put back not because the finance was not available to the foundation but because Budge wanted to put in place certain things first. Even now she is saying that she will not hand the club over until Covid is no longer a threat. This might be a sensible move but surely it is one for FOH to make, hopefully after communicating with the members.
I think it is now time for Hearts supporters to believe that they have show enough gratitude to Budge and to recognise that it is time to move on. Reconstruction would have kept Hearts and the others in the appropriate divisions but its failure should fall as much at your executives door as the doors of those that you feel are the ones to blame.
No EDIT anymore so. Highlander, i like your posts when you post. But you have to look at the scottish game not make comparisons with other leagues. Remember when the games were stopped in scotland. Remember when players were only allowed to return to trainning but no contact. Remember when players could start to get tested. Remember some clubs could not even get that right.Remember the cost of all this to the scottish game.
Doncaster did an interview with sky on May 20 explaining that there was just no time to get games played. He has done a few other interviews since then still explaining how games could not get played. I would have loved to see celtic go on and secure a points tally or a record goals scored, but for health and safety reasons there was just no time or money to do it.
I wonder if Steve Carson, who has been named as the successor of Donalda MacKinnon as the Director of BBC Scotland will allow free discussion on air of the ‘Big Lie’, or whether he will follow the established policy of the last 8 years and allow the BBC to carry propagating the untruth that TRFC is somehow the RFC of 1872?
No, I don’t really wonder!
He’d never have got the appointment unless Ken MacQuarrie believed him to be a safe pair hands.
It may be that we are about to see the sense of the lower leagues’ shortened seasons. Yesterday the Chief Health Officer in England stated, in a rare piece of honesty at Westminster, that we are probably seeing that the limit to return to “normality” has been reached. It kinda shows that steps taken in Scotland were more realistic but it also shows that if choices are to be made as to which crowd gatherings are to be allowed then what chance that football is one that won’t. Could the game here survive that?
Perhaps Hearts supporters will have the last laugh.
reasonablechap 1st August 2020 at 08:00
Rangers don’t like that and want some real political power but can’t get a foot in the door.
…………..
Was Stewart Robertson not on the SPFL board? not bad for an 8 year old club getting someone on the SPFL board.
……………………………….
Generally, money flows to the top, money buys power, more money, etc, etc…
…
But money does not buy you a sporting Advantage. So we have been told.
Will the SMSM now dial down the ridiculous coverage of Morelos’ ‘transfer speculation’?
Not only was Morelos in the TRFC squad, but he played from the start – and for the whole game.
Ergo, no club is about to buy the player.
IMO, they’re no closer to shifting Morelos than when they received those, erm, Chinese offers…
That Ibrox PR chap is making Traynor look competent! 🙂
Wottpi
I can imagine your despair that nothing will change what is a setup wide open to corruption.
When CEO’s lie to their shareholders/stakeholders and get away with it, giving up hope is natural.
Now although Res12 is Celtic based the consequences affects the integrity all of Scottish football and in spite of the death pronunciations it is a Resolution at Celtic AGM adjourned indefinitely.
Adjourned means ” break off (a meeting, legal case, or game) with the intention of resuming it later.”
Indefinitely: for a period of time with no fixed end.
No fixed end which means no time limit set against when it can be resumed.
Only Celtic shareholders can end Resolution 12 by a vote. Then and only then is it dead.
The underlying principle of accountability is one society at large is beginning to appreciate more , without accountability those in charge can do what they like.
Accountability : the fact of being responsible for what you do and able to give a satisfactory reason for it, or the degree to which this happens:
The Celtic Board are accountable to shareholders.
Hang in there.
John Clark 1st August 2020 at 08:06 Edit
I wonder if Steve Carson, who has been named as the successor of Donalda MacKinnon as the Director of BBC Scotland will allow free discussion on air of the ‘Big Lie’, or whether he will follow the established policy of the last 8 years and allow the BBC to carry propagating the untruth that TRFC is somehow the RFC of 1872?
No, I don’t really wonder!
He’d never have got the appointment unless Ken MacQuarrie believed him to be a safe pair hands.
The BBC have a copy of Fergus McCann v David Murray. If nothing comes of it, then you have your answer.
Reasonable Chap 31 July 21.04
“So now we have the general targeting of a journalist (Tom English).”
English is only one of the many journalists who have played the three monkey trick about the skulduggery in Scottish football that began under David Murray who still hangs on to his knighthood (that I’ve removed 🙂 )
Have a read at a previous blog that names them all
https://sfm.scot/sweet-little-lies/ and if English is now focussed on then its because his “campaign” against the SPL just highlighted the depth of his hypocrisy.
He is the guy who read the Offshore Game Report on SFA and said it had flaws but never identified them. If he really wanted SFA/SPFL change, as opposed to ousting the green placemen at Hampden, then his stock would have risen that much higher than the depths his hypocrisy, he would have needed a spacesuit to breath.
Since those listed at previous blog were contacted, there are more of the green hue who also got the full narrative but have written nothing and I’m betting on a “D” type notice from Celtic Park at play.
For the games’s governors its all about power, and after 12 years of Murray’s cheating under the Nelson eye of the SFA, who can blame Celtic for wanting to keep hold of the reins?
I’d much rather they used that power to modernise the game, but once bitten etc.
For journalists it about feeding off the crumbs that fall from the table and where the biggest crumbs fall is where they gather. In the most current case involving English it wasn’t crumbs he was thrown it was a whole “ootsider”.
When it comes to governing with integrity, in this case one is as bad as the other.
Just a thought provoked by the discussions.
Did Celtic primarily, but others too, fear there would be an attempt to negate all their efforts up to lockdown and so influenced the decision to make payment of SPFL prize money conditional on drawing the curtain.
My view back then was to complete the fixtures TO A SETTLEMENT POINT in the couple of weeks before this season started and pay out in March/April a sufficient percentage to meet the bills but hold some in reserve in case adjustment required.
However was there a fear that a pause would only add time for the null and voiders to gather momentum in the media, hence the approach taken?
In short did the null and voiders contribute to the mess?
easyJambo 28th July 2020 at 22:00 Edit
upthehoops 28th July 2020 at 21:12
Bogs Dollox 28th July 2020 at 14:14
I will finish with a question which never seems to get answered. What should replace the incompetent SPFL Board/leadership? Many call for them and the SFA to be disbanded but what next?
++++++++++++++
It’s a very valid point. Who decides what format the replacement organisation(s) would take, and how do we know the decision would be made free of influence and bias? It would be very difficult in Scotland.
I’ve given my thoughts about this a couple of time recently, but I’ll summarise them as follows.
You create an Executive Board of maybe 3 or 4 professionals not connected to any club. A CEO figurehead, leader, thinker, strategist, a Commercial director to do all the contract negotiations with broadcasters, sponsors etc. A Marketing director whose job is to promote the “brand”, seek out new investment and growth opportunities, delivery channels etc. You may also want a football administrator type to look after the Leagues themselves, the rules, fixtures, discipline etc., although it is not necessary for the football person to be on the Exec Board.
Those individuals should be contracted for fixed terms or for the duration of specific projects, e.g you may want to co-opt someone to deliver a new league structure. Contracts should only be renewed based on performance and delivery of the expected change.
The Execs would have been given the power to make changes without further referral to the clubs, although they may wish to consult with a Clubs Board when bouncing ideas around, but the Exec has to be autonomous and allowed to implement any changes they see fit, e.g. reconstruction.
The Clubs Board responsibility would simple be a sounding board and as a conduit for communication between the Exec and the clubs. They may also participate along with the Execs on nomination and remuneration committees.
In order to set it up, it would need all the clubs to sign up to the new structure and see their individual rights diluted, but to set the objectives for the first Exec appointees, e.g. raise income by x% a year, review the league set up and implement a new structure in two seasons time. There would be no final votes by clubs on the key changes on contracts, league structure etc.
Such changes could well be radical and mean significant change for some clubs, e.g. part time clubs in regional leagues, full integration with the pyramid.
Probably all just wishful thinking I’m afraid, but that’s the way I see it working. Something needs to change, or the game will ultimately die a death with few full time clubs left.
This business like approach is exactly what is needed. To it I would add what I’ve already said about introducing a service provider (The SFA) to the customer (The SPFL, but other leagues too ) approach with suggestions for #:
A Refereeing Service
A Licensing Service
An Ownership Service.
Now this is from a June 2011 blog and might need updating but without such change the game will die if Covid19 doesn’t get there first.
http://celticunderground.net/sfa-reform-one-down-three-to-go/
The Referee Service
This would be split with the SFA doing the recruitment, training and match appointments (having taken the nature of the game to be officiated into account). However the monitoring and evaluation would be the province of the customer, using referees or ex refs from anywhere to mark to a standard set by the customer. This spilt of responsibilities would prevent any one person being in a position to exert his own influence on referees as a result of being part of the appointment and evaluation process. It would safeguard the SFA from the kind of suspicion that led to the referees’ strike and lead to a higher standard of referee because the customer would be setting the standard not the supplier (as happens everywhere in business but football) If it did not, it would free the SPL/SL to hire their own referees from wherever they could get them. A bit of competition never did anybody any harm and that includes our referees who, if they reached higher standards, would be in more demand outside Scotland.
The Licensing Service
This needs to be more transparent. As it stands it is likely to approve Rangers licensing application that enables them to play in next season’s UEFA competitions. This, despite question marks over Ranger’s ownership; the intent of that ownership; (an intent that has still to be conveyed to the other small shareholders in Rangers), not to mention (Scottish media style) a potential crippling tax bill.
Not only is it likely to approve a license this year in spite of the above, its role in not preventing Rangers getting into the situation they now find themselves in has surely to be investigated and changes made to prevent Rangers, or any Scottish club, endangering themselves and their fellow clubs in the future. In short the Licensing Service that is supposed to protect the financial well being of Scottish clubs has failed and that failure has undermined the integrity of our game.
The process the SFA use is governed by UEFA and the new UEFA Financial Fair Play (FFP) rules that stipulate amongst other things what is to be treated as allowable income and allowable debt come into force for the new season. The problem with the FFP rules is that they are designed to stop rich owners putting money into clubs and thus help restrict player wages, the high cost of which is why so many clubs are carrying so much debt.
Whilst an indirect wage cap will indirectly help Celtic (and Rangers) by making us more wage competitive with our neighbour’s in the Championship and lower EPL, neither ourselves nor Rangers are particularly high wage payers nor do we get income Abramovic style from our major shareholder.
However what Celtic have had to compete with in the last decade is our main rivals Rangers first indulging in a questionable method of paying player wages (EBT’s) and then borrowing beyond their means to repay. This has all but destroyed the integrity of our game, something that can be inferred from the Scotsman article where it says,
‘which last season led the SFA’s legal and moral authority to be undermined by constant challenges.’
It is therefore clear to any observer that the processes that have allowed Rangers to damage themselves and with it the game that the SFA is supposed to protect must be tailored to reflect the reality of the SPL not the EPL.
In Scotland, unlike England where 4 clubs can qualify, the risk of failing to get CL money means the loser can be condemned to being the perpetual bridesmaid or not getting a wedding invite at all, forcing them into taking risks/gambles that can seriously damage the well being of each club, if not end it. So the licensing processes in Scotland have to be tighter to take more of an account of a clubs debt and to confirm that all players at all clubs are contracted on a basis that complies with standard tax law principles. ( a tick against “ Are your players wages subject to PAYE should suffice)
A way of balancing debt with income and expenditure would be a triangulation profile for all clubs. A triangulation profile would have income (A) in one corner, players wages (B) in another and debt (C) in the third. The triangle has to be equilateral and kept in balance and the figures from the accounts supplied to the SFA by clubs have to feed each of the balance points.
It gets more complicated in that what is counted as income has to be defined because some has to be allocated to non football costs,but as these need to be met they have to be included in the formula to set (A). What can be allowed as income will be defined by the UEFA FFP rules but is generally gate money, TV income, merchandising and UEFA money.
Players wages including PAYE and NI should be easy to arrive at and the debt level would have to bear some relationship to the income and wages.
So say for arguments sake (and the multiplier would have to be argued) the debt allowed was 3 times the difference between income and wages (like they used to do in my young days when mortgages bore some relationship to income) then everyone would know if a club was overborrowing if (C) > (A)-(B)*3
A simple spreadsheet drawing on the figures from the accounts with a pie chart to present the picture could be published for each club without divulging the figures beneath and any club not meeting the result of the formula would have their licence to play in UEFA competitions refused as well as it triggering an SFA audit of their accounts.
There is for Scottish Clubs (usually Celtic and Rangers) however an additional issue of what is allowable income for triangulation purposes because of the “skew” affect of Champions League money and the fact that it cannot be depended upon.
Because of the consequences of the proposed profiliing, a club borrowing would have to take a risk that they were always going to have that money as guaranteed income as its loss would risk a refusal of a UEFA license or an audit under the proposed profiling rules.
So what any sensible club would do is not to include money that could not be depended upon in the income, and if they get a windfall (like CL money) that is used it to avoid or to reduce debt levels, not to keep using debt to try and ensure they get the money that enables them to stay in debt, as Rangers have done.
In fact any sensible measure of governance in Scotland with only two realistic competitors for CL money should insist on the CL money being excluded from the debt affordability calculation by removing it from the allowable income. (since Euro Cup money is more dependable and a lot less this could be included as allowable but not CL money)
The principle of limiting debt to what you can afford is one which our banks abandoned to everyone’s cost and is a principle that needs to be restored everywhere never mind being introduced to football. The triangulation profile is a simple representation of that principle and a more detailed one looking at what is and is not admissable as income and what the debt multiplyer might be in the context of Scottish football is required. Any club who wishes to operate as if CL money is guaranteed and is allowable for financial profiling purposes could only do so if they have good reasons to believe that this is the case. Those reasons should be supplied and made public.
Whatever approach is adopted Scottish football needs a more relevant process and the SFA should be saying something about the lack of transparency in the Licensing process and what they intend to do to address it.
Ownership. If the Rangers takeover has highlighted anything it is the need for scrutiny of any new owner or majority shareholder to be a fit and proper person to hold such a position. Their wealth and its sources have to be checked and ownership has to be part of the licensing process. The English F.A have such a test and the background can be found here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/6271777/What-exactly-is-the-Premier-Leagues-fit-and-proper-person-test.html
It is not clear if the SFA have an equivalent process in place but if not they should have and they should have at least been a party in the Rangers takeover process and gave Craig Whites “ownership” its approval.
That’s all Folks. 🙂 😉
Along with other Hibs supporters I think the threat of Covid has suddenly become greater. So let’s call the league now and announce Hibs the champions. Unfortunately Celtic will have to be relegated but that’s the fairest way.
Black humour I know but please give me credit for the skill used in smiling with my tongue in my cheek and winking at the same time. It hurts.
Auldheid 1st August 2020 at 17:09
It is not clear if the SFA have an equivalent process in place but if not they should have and they should have at least been a party in the Rangers takeover process and gave Craig Whites “ownership” its approval.
…………………………….
I believe the SFA fined the ibrox club because Craig Whyte was not fit and proper something that took them months to come to that conclusion.They were also fined £50,000 by the plus stock exchange for failing to disclose whytes previous disqualification as a director when the takeover of the club was completed in May 2011.
The SFA compliance officer issued charges against the ibrox cluband it’s owner following an independent inquiry led by our friend lord Nimmo smith. Whyte was issued with two notices of complaint over breaches of two disciplinary rules whilr the ibrox club had been accused of 5 breaches including failing to abide by SFA regulations over the fit and proper persons test.
The case was to be heard by a SFA judicial panel on March 29, 2012.
I CAN’T FIND THE OUTCOME OF THE SFA JUDICIAL PANEL as nothing was reported about it on March 30, 2012.
Happy for any help on this;-)
Any way by this time line it took the SFA almost a year to find out that craig whyte was not a fit and proper person to run the ibrox club, but they waved charles Green through the door. Was no lessons learned by the SFA?
Cluster One 1st August 2020 at 18:51
I CAN’T FIND THE OUTCOME OF THE SFA JUDICIAL PANEL as nothing was reported about it on March 30, 2012.
Happy for any help on this;-)
CO Paul McConville reported on it.
The Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal Hearing took place over six days: 29 March, 6 April (Procedural Hearings) and a Principal Hearing on 17, 18, 20 and 23 April 2012 at Hampden Park, Glasgow. The Tribunal heard the conjoined hearings of the complaints against The Rangers Football Club plc (“Rangers FC”) and Mr Craig Whyte.
First Complaint
1 Breach of Disciplinary Rule 1: Not Proven
2 Breach of Disciplinary Rule 2: Proven A fine of £10,000 payable to the Scottish FA within twelve months.
3 Breach of Disciplinary Rule 14: Proven A fine of £50,000 payable to the Scottish FA within twelve months.
4 Breach of Disciplinary Rule 66: Proven (subject to deletion of the sixth element) A fine of £100,000payable to the Scottish FA within twelve months.
In addition, the Tribunal imposed a prohibition in terms of Articles 94.1 and 95 of the Articles of Association, prohibiting Rangers FC for a period of 12 months from the date of Determination from seeking registration with the Scottish FA of any player not currently with the club, excluding any player under the age of 18 years.
5 Breach of Disciplinary Rule 71: Proven The Tribunal imposed a censure.
Second Complaint
1 Breach of Disciplinary Rule 325: Proven The Tribunal imposed a censure.
Full Text
https://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/the-sfa-judicial-panel-verdict-on-rangers-full-text/
“Cluster One 1st August 2020 at 18:51
I CAN’T FIND THE OUTCOME OF THE SFA JUDICIAL PANEL as nothing was reported about it on March 30, 2012.
Happy for any help on this;-)'”
fitbawfan 1st August 2020 at 19:38
‘.CO Paul McConville reported on it.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
fitbawfan, not being any kind of techy, I’ve repeatedly failed to find that source material.
If I ever did copy it I long ago lost it somewhere in the ether.
I’m so glad you have provided the link.
I shall read it through as bedtime reading, as reflecting part [but only part] of the dirtiest episode in Scottish football history, brought about by the Sports cheating of a man once deemed worthy of being touched on the shoulder by a sword wielded by Her Sovereign Majesty, Elizabeth II, instead of having it shoved up his fundament, as it subsequently ought to have been in 2012!
fitbawfan 1st August 2020 at 19:38
……..Thanks for that. I was looking at March and not a later date. That was a lot of fines on top of the, They were also fined £50,000 by the plus stock exchange for failing to disclose whytes previous disqualification as a director. Don’t know if they were ever paid. Then you can add the LNS fine that was not paid but the offset rul was used.
………………..
JC . I look foward to what you find and maybe remind us of.
Auldheid 1st August 2020 at 17:10
‘..That’s all Folks. ? ?’
“”””””””””””””””””””””
And may Fred Quimby, Auldheid, who was born on 31st July 1886 ( when one of my granpappies was 34/35 years old and the other grandpappy was 12 or thereabouts: the former married very late!)) be enjoying his just reward for the great happiness and pleasure that his genius as a producer gave to us all with his ‘Tom and Jerry ‘ and the whole wonderful world of cartoons.
His birth date was mentioned in yesterday’s ‘Scotsman’.
He died in 1965, when I was in my early 20s.
What joy it was to see in the mid to late ’70s my own kids enjoy the same ‘Tom and Jerry’ cartoons that I had enjoyed.
Cluster One 1st August 2020 at 23:07
‘…They were also fined £50,000 by the plus stock exchange for failing to disclose whytes previous disqualification as a director. Don’t know if they were ever paid.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””
Now there’s a point that needs looking at!
Were any fines imposed actually paid? Do ‘fines ‘ count as debts owed by a club in administration/liquidation?
Someone out there will come up with the answer!
Like the little difficulty I have had with the FCA : how do we get to the truth when we are dealing with bodies like any of the market stock exchanges when they are not in any ordinarily democratic way accountable to Parliament or to us?
The ‘regulatory’ bodies are composed of people of the same breed and stamp as those whom they are supposed to ‘regulate’.
The TOP made sure that King was not convicted of contempt of court.
The FCA appear not even to have to respond to complaints that they themselves may have acted in breach of their statutory duties!
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?, as ma granny used to ask.
Oh, what a cynical auld wumman she was, fluent in Latin as she was!
John Clark 1st August 2020 at 23:48
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?, as ma granny used to ask.
Oh, what a cynical auld wumman she was, fluent in Latin as she was!
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
Your Granny would then have had a suitable phrase for the regulators too.
Tanta stultitia mortalium est.
🙂
fitbawfan 1st August 2020 at 23:57
‘.Your Granny would then have had a suitable phrase for the regulators too.
Tanta stultitia mortalium est.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Her very words! ( but she sourced Hesiod as Seneca’s source..)
She declaimed that sentiment from the windae of her flat at the bend in London Road ( where years later, in the 1960s, they couldn’t use the ‘Liverpool’ trams because they could not negotiate the bend, just where the ‘Barras’ is).
That granny , God rest her, died n 1952.
And, afore I go to my kip, can I say that I was not terribly impressed by the football offered by Arsenal and Chelsea today?
Very basic, pedestrian stuff really, not in any way much above the skill levels of the SPL.
No. It was worse than pedestrian: it was nondescript sh.te!
Cluster One 1st Aug 18.51
This may be the investigation into CW that you refer to:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uWzxhblAt9UkNvbkxocFUtbFU/view?usp=sharing
Ignore the previous link please.
John Clark 2nd August 2020 at 00:12 Edit
fitbawfan 1st August 2020 at 23:57
‘.Your Granny would then have had a suitable phrase for the regulators too.
Tanta stultitia mortalium est.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Her very words! ( but she sourced Hesiod as Seneca’s source..)
She declaimed that sentiment from the windae of her flat at the bend in London Road ( where years later, in the 1960s, they couldn’t use the ‘Liverpool’ trams because they could not negotiate the bend, just where the ‘Barras’ is).
That granny , God rest her, died n 1952.
Was that where Ross St joined the London Rd? My gran lived there.
On the CW Verdict one noticeable omission from the charges that included failure to pay HMRC VAT and PAYE tax owed, was his failure to pay the wee tax bill which by the spring of 2012 was a well known liability to HMRC.
It was also a an overdue payable to HMRC at 31st March 2012, which the SFA were aware of in Feb 2012 when Rangers applied for a UEFA licence just before they went into administration. That application was refused as there were no accounts and HMRC were known to be pursuing payment since Aug 2011 when Sherriff Officers called to collect.
Its as if the SFA didn’t want that particular item investigated away back in 2012 and yet LNS helped them draw up the Terms of Reference for the March Judicial Panel in Feb 2012.
The same LNS who later treated the DOS ebts as continuous with the big tax case ebts even they the DOS ones were not lawful.
The fix was in early doors. It was all about damage control later manifested in the 5 Way Agreement.
Here is a link to a bit of BBC comedy that hits a spot and elps illustrate one of my points from a post, yesterday. The BBC themselves put it out on twitter, so there should be no problem posting the link here.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289508924752900097
It’s a fact that people don’t have the same gullible opinion of the BBC, as our forefathers did.
https://youtu.be/cGFNkaNPAx8
It was a hugely important day yesterday: the opening of the new SPFL season.
It was a big day for the clubs, the SPFL, the SFA, Sky & the fans. What did we get?
Sky gave us AFC v. TRFC in the marquee game, live & with no competition from other televised matches.
A turgid affair; AFC looked like 11 strangers had turned up a party wearing the same outfit. They gave the ball away with abandon & in doing so made TRFC look adequate. Four (four!) shots on target in 90 minutes, all from TRFC. The officials had (to be kind) a very ‘ring-rusty’ performance.
I’ll declare that I didn’t listen to the commentary. (I enjoyed playing Terry Reid’s ‘The Driver’ & Tom Petty’s ‘Wildflowers’ albums vice Crocker & McCoist.)
I wonder what non-Scottish viewers made of it? I saw a far better (technically & with greater passion) non-league game, in terrible conditions, on BT last weekend.
We carp about the monetary value of the SPFL’s broadcast deal, but the poor product on offer is just cheap filler for Sky.
…and remember folks, the SPFL has no sponsor this season.
FYI; The comedy sketch linked above is called…”The new fragrance for bhoys”
============
Back to other business
Homunculus 31st July 2020 at 13:25
“An independent arbitration panel has looked at all of the material, presumably taken evidence from witnesses, carried out whatever investigations which were required and unanimously agreed that the SPFL did nothing wrong. Well insofar as the accusations made against them.
People called for an independent investigation. It has now been done, you have your result.
People are now saying that is not satisfactory because they themselves have not seen all of the papers, looked at all of the evidence. However in Scotland arbitration is a confidential process, not in some nebulous way, confidential because the relevant act makes it so.
So we now have, “but it’s in the public interest”. I’m afraid “in the public interest” and “of interest to the public” are not the same thing.
There is a good argument to say that what is “in the public interest” is for these things not to be released, as to do so would reduce people’s faith in the confidentiality of the arbitration process. A process which is there for a reason.Some football reporter / supporter demanding to see confidential documentation is not as important to the public as maintaining the integrity of the process.”
===================
Here we have Homunculus, a prominent poster on here, a site that has as it’s M.O., a wish to hold the footballing authorities accountable to the fans, starting a post by saying “….the SPFL did nothing wrong. Well insofar as the accusations made against them.”
Yet ending with “There is a good argument to say that what is “in the public interest” is for these things not to be released, as to do so would reduce people’s faith in the confidentiality of the arbitration process”.
That is some leap for an SFM poster…..ie. putting forward a flawed argument in favour of secrecy. I say flawed because the Arbitration Act itself provides a route to publication.
I accept that the Arbitration Act indicates confidentiality BUT IT ALSO PROVIDES A ROUTE TO PUBLICATION. If all parties agree to it, IT CAN BE PUBLISHED.
Arbitration(Scotland) Act 2010 Schedule 1
“Rule 26 Confidentiality D
26(1)Disclosure by the tribunal, any arbitrator or a party of confidential information relating to the arbitration is to be actionable as a breach of an obligation of confidence unless the disclosure—
(a)is authorised, expressly or impliedly, by the parties (or can reasonably be considered as having been so authorised),
(e)is in the public interest,
Andrew Smith put up a blog post that touched on this back in early July entitled….
“The Last Thing Scottish Football Needs Right Now is more Secrecy”
Neil Doncaster had this to say two years ago on EBTs/Rangers
“….I think that’s why transparency and openness are the themes of this morning. I think the only way you can possibly try and draw a line under the events of the past is to understand precisely what happened…”
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/15436214.neil-doncaster-hopes-scottish-football-can-move-on-after-spfl-have-final-say-on-rangers-ebt-issue/
I have just listened to a podcast of yesterdays Sportsound (link below) which started with Neil Doncaster getting an easy interview from Richard Gordon. What was interesting was ND stating that the SPFL would be okay with publication of the arbitration process. So no apparent contradiction with what he said 3 years ago….Only, the question….WHO DOESN’T WANT IT PUBLISHED ?
Note to Richard Gordon, WHY NOT ASK HIM ?
Note to BBC Scotland,.. Why not let Tom English do the interview ? Did Neil present conditions to his appearence, as per earlier in the summer ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08mhgsh
I return the Doncaster quote from 2017
“I think the only way you can possibly try and draw a line under the events of the past is to understand precisely what happened”
Lord Clark at the Court of Session saw the public interest and taled about it in court
The Scottish Arbitration Act 2010 provides a legal route to publication.
Doncaster has said the SPFL don’t have a problem with publication
The HMFC/PT joint statement mentioned “As all Parties have been requested not to comment on the tribunal’s decision or reveal details of the hearings on the grounds of confidentiality, all we can only say is how disappointed and surprised we are at the outcome.”
WHO REQUESTED CONFIDENTIALITY ?
It seems that Neil Doncaster is quite happy to make the arbitration decision public, or so he has told the BBC.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53621389
easyJambo 2nd August 2020 at 11:50
Presumably one of the other parties wouldn’t agree to it then.
Or no-one asked for the confidentiality to be lifted.
reasonablechap 2nd August 2020 at 10:26
Here is a link to a bit of BBC comedy that hits a spot and elps illustrate one of my points from a post, yesterday. The BBC themselves put it out on twitter, so there should be no problem posting the link here.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289508924752900097
………………………………………..
There is nothing to beat an Obsession when it is driven by a simple desire to find the truth.
Cluster One 2nd August 2020 at 16:21
They can’t use “paranoid” any more because it turns it it was all true.
Homunculus 2nd August 2020 at 17:20
…………………..
Not Obsessed enough, some would say. Wonder what team the person made the video supports? Obsessed enough to make a video.
Auldheid 2nd August 2020 at 01:09
‘…Was that where Ross St joined the London Rd?’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””
My grandparents moved from Motherwell in the 1920s into a tenement flat in the block (demolished a number of years ago)which was on the corner of London Rd /Greendyke St, almost directly across London Road from Ross Street.
The grandad died in 1951, and the granny a year later.
Auldheid 2nd August 2020 at 01:03
Cluster One 1st Aug 18.51
This may be the investigation into CW that you refer to:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uWzxhblAt9UkNvbkxocFUtbFU/view?usp=sharing
………………………………..
Thanks for that.
Mr Craig Whyte was found guilty of bringing the game into disrepute, and the
Tribunal was in no doubt that he, together with a number of business associates,
had engaged in scandalous business activities, which, if not illegal, of which in
certain matters there may be a doubt, had a corrosive effect on the reputation of a
proud football club. The Tribunal was left in no doubt that Mr Craig Whyte did not
engage in his activities in Rangers FC with any view to the interests of Rangers FC or
Scottish football in the wider context.
…………………
You could change the name of Graig whyte to David Murray and wonder why the later has never been charged with bringing the game into disrepute.
Or has he and i missed it?
Cluster One 2nd August 2020 at 23:07
“..You could change the name of Graig whyte to David Murray and wonder why the later has never been charged with bringing the game into disrepute.”
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Certainly, the sentence
“The Tribunal was left in no doubt that Mr Craig Whyte did not
engage in his activities in Rangers FC with any view to the interests of Rangers FC or
Scottish football in the wider context”
could equally have been applied to the dirty night of Scottish football.
One can only speculate why the Tribunal fingered the wee Del Boy, when the rest of us know that compared to some, his part in the death of RFC of 1872 (which caused the death of Integrity in Scottish Football governance )was , at most, marginal, and inevitable as being merely the consequence of a decade long cheating by SDM.
It was that decade’s worth of sports cheating and tax cheating by a knight of the realm that killed RFC of 1872.
And it is to the everlasting shame and disgrace of the SMSM that they failed to report the truth as they stuffed themselves to obesity level with succulent lamb and vintage wines like Odysseus’ companions who were turned into swine by Circe as they gorged themselves on the island of Aeaea
Honest to God!
What lousy, cheating rats they were then and are now, as they propagandise the lie that RFC of 1872 did not die the football death of Liquidation!
From the DR this morning
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/craig-whyte-up-old-tricks-22458834
““Tom” – who we believe to be Craig Whyte – pledged to help us avoid the peril posed by enemies such as lawyers and insolvency practitioners, who might try to get struggling creditors some of their cash back.
And, in the end, he would simply shift all assets to a new company, leaving the debt with the oldco, which would “quietly drift off”.”
Aaahh! that’s what happened to RFC of 1872…it “quietly drifted off”!!
And where was Mark McGivern and the DR in 2011/2012 when there was real investigative journalism to be done, and where are they now with their acceptance and propagation of the Big Lie?
John Clark 3rd August 2020 at 10:53
From the DR this morning
5 grand?……Minty got a bargain there.
Cluster One 2nd August 2020 at 16:21
There is nothing to beat an Obsession when it is driven by a simple desire to find the truth.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289508924752900097
==========================
You should start by telling the truth regarding ‘the driver’.
What the average fitbaw fan digs deep to seek ‘the truth’ for, depends on what club they support and/or hate. In this case, hate is the true driver of the ‘obsession’. Had it been any other club in Scotland, the obsession that some engage in would have faded long ago.
I read various posts about Alfredo Morelos and how the media supposedly help or are used by Rangers to inflate his market value with others focusing on his lack of goals. I haven’t engaged on those types of issues until now.
I’m sure all Scottish fitbaw fans will wish the player well this week as Rangers resume the Europa League campaign 2019/20. Alfredo was top scorer in the competition during the qualifying rounds and is joint top scorer since the groups started, 11 months ago.
In other summer ‘news’ that wasn’t picked up by SFM, the Celtic defender Kristoffer Ajer, is apparently worth 50 Million.
ANYONE INTERESTED IN WHO DOESN’T WANT THE ABITRAL JUDGEMENT PUBLISHED ?
reasonablechap
I love your comment “Had it been any other club in Scotland, the obsession that some engage in would have faded long ago.” The answer to that is we still talk about Gretna and Third Lanark, to name but two, and remember them as clubs that died. I am sure that they are missed by some/many but they paid the price for financial mismanagement! Without corruption and, what many would suggest as, criminality the discussion on here, without doubt, would be very different!
adam812 3rd August 2020 at 12:53
My answer is simpler, it wan’t any other club.
The only club in liquidation because they cheated the tax man out of millions of pounds and left many more creditors losing further millions is Rangers. It was only Rangers who were the subject of a Supreme Court ruling in relation to disguised remuneration which led to the whole farce being exposed.
I suspect that the party (or parties) who do not wish the proceedings of the Appellate Tribunal published may well be one, two or all of the three panel members.
I cannot envisage any situation where it is to the benefit of the anonymous panel members’ to have their ruminations publicly examined, particularly since there is no right of appeal to any of the parties involved.
(Before someone plays their ‘transparency’ Joker, remember that the rules of the Tribunal only allow for the release of the findings when all participants agree. Obviously, at least one party hasn’t given consent. That’s why it’s a doddle for Doncaster, vindicated by the result, to state that he has no issues with publishing the proceedings. Just like in Scooby-Doo, ‘If it wasn’t for those pesky kids’…)
There is an argument to say that someone like Auldheid isn’t obsessed. That he and others directly involved are simply following through on a legal/company process and that the many, many others who involve themselves in the everyday scan, review and automatic critique on all things blue are the more obvious target of the BBC comedy sketch.
Here’s the thing though !
What’s the root motivation for Auldheid and the others involved ?
What/who is blocking them ?
If the motivation is for what they see as ‘sporting integrity’ to be upheld, then why would you continue to support who was blocking it.
If they continue to support the PLC who block it, then it isn’t ‘sporting integrity’ that is the only big motive involved.
Trying to seperate the football club from the PLC would see them engaged in a thought process that some might say is hypocritical.
For me, the obsession sketch is more about those Sevco threadsters who just can’t get enough of the everyday Rangers fix, whether that be historical, up to date or midnight posts that send everyone off to dream about Green and Whyte.
The biggest irony of all, is that it is what this ‘group’ do, that ridicules their own mantra of new club, no Old Firm, etrc.
Jingo Jimsie
I suspect that the party (or parties) who do not wish the proceedings of the Appellate Tribunal published may well be one, two or all of the three panel members.
=================================
Could do with a lawyer here but
Is a panel member referred to as an ‘arbitrator’, opposed to ‘party’.
Wouldn’t another potential legal route to publication be e) ‘in the public interest’
Arbitration(Scotland) Act 2010 Schedule 1
“Rule 26 Confidentiality D
26(1)Disclosure by the tribunal, any arbitrator or a party of confidential information relating to the arbitration is to be actionable as a breach of an obligation of confidence unless the disclosure—
(a)is authorised, expressly or impliedly, by the parties (or can reasonably be considered as having been so authorised),
(e)is in the public interest,
Rangers FC died in 2012: that is indisputable.
No Ibrox should have been allowed anywhere near Scottish football thereafter: that is debatable.
But, to put our own shameful state of affairs in Scottish football into perspective, we have FIFA outdoing every FA on the planet in terms of corruption – and with an absolute disregard for public perception;
“Gianni Infantino: Fifa president to continue in role amid criminal investigation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53634191 ”
Hampden is full of amateurs, in every sense. 🙁
reasonablechap 3rd August 2020 at 15:05
‘Could do with a lawyer here but
Is a panel member referred to as an ‘arbitrator’, opposed to ‘party’.’
Well, in the case under discussion the SPFL, HoMFC, PTFC & SFC are referred to as ‘respondents’, not ‘parties’. The use of ‘party’ & ‘parties’ by me was loose language, but still conveyed my point. The panel members are afforded confidentiality/anonymity by the SFA’s JPP, Section 17.5.
::
::
Again, from your post, “Wouldn’t another potential legal route to publication be e) ‘in the public interest’.”
I believe that the ‘public interest’ in this case is decided by the SFA, as detailed in their JPP, Section 17.5.
Edit to my post at 1535hrs:
Happy, as always, to be put right if incorrect.
JJ
I am not a lawyer and in this case, only put forward doubts/questions.
I’ve just read JPP, S17.5 (can’t C&P)
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/3997/scottish-fa-jpp-18_19.pdf
I note the “…SAVE WHERE REQUIRED BY LAW….” in 17.5.1
According to the DR, it is Hearts and Partick who are now blocking publication of the judgement.
I don’t know if the judgement is perhaps a two page summary or a more extensive document giving reasons for the decision.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-partick-thistle-hammer-spfl-22461694
Jingso.Jimsie 3rd August 2020 at 15:35
I think the confidentiality of the arbitration comes directly from the Arbitration (Scotland) Act 2010. There are exceptions of course, for example if the parties agree to it or “is necessary in the interests of justice” or “is in the public interest”.
Forgive me for saying it again but, “is in the public interest” is not the same as is “of interest to the public”
What public interest would be achieved by releasing this information, against the will of the parties involved, which would outweigh the inherent confidentiality of the arbitration process. The confidentiality is enshrined in law in Scotland so there would have to be a good reason to breach it.
reasonablechap 3rd August 2020 at 12:10
Cluster One 2nd August 2020 at 16:21
There is nothing to beat an Obsession when it is driven by a simple desire to find the truth.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1289508924752900097
==========================
You should start by telling the truth regarding ‘the driver’.
…………………………
The Driver crashed the bus here.
Stuart Hay
@stuhay89
Comedy Writer // Bonafide Rock and Roll Star // Horror and True Crime Enthusiast // Big Hun // El Mosher // Stoater Abouter // Tap Scranner // Dug Clapper.
………………………………….
Had it been any other club in Scotland, the obsession that some engage in would have faded long ago.
……
Not if it was any other club that had a rival.
………………………
I’m sure all Scottish fitbaw fans will wish the player well this week as Rangers resume the Europa League campaign 2019/20. Alfredo was top scorer in the competition during the qualifying rounds
…..
Uefa don’t include goals scored in the qualifying rounds when they announce their top goal scorer in their competition.
reasonablechap 3rd August 2020 at 14:54
For me, the obsession sketch is more about those Sevco threadsters who just can’t get enough of the everyday Rangers fix, whether that be historical, up to date or midnight posts that send everyone off to dream about Green and Whyte.
………..
Maybe if there was not such a comedy show from the ibrox club every day,those Sevco threadsters would not have so much material to mock the comedy show.
easyJambo 3rd August 2020 at 16:17
According to the DR, it is Hearts and Partick who are now blocking publication of the judgement.
I don’t know if the judgement is perhaps a two page summary or a more extensive document giving reasons for the decision.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-partick-thistle-hammer-spfl-22461694
………………….
Now why would Hearts and Partick thistle not want publication of the judgement? Did something turn up under a stone that they don’t want made public?
Cluster One 3rd August 2020 at 17:40
Now why would Hearts and Partick thistle not want publication of the judgement? Did something turn up under a stone that they don’t want made public?
We already know what the “judgement” was. The panel deemed that the SPFL’s actions were lawful.
I’m more interested in how they got to that determination. What was the evidence that the panel accepted or rejected and why, e.g. re the Dundee vote. Were there precedents for a “reject” vote being reversed, or did the panel simply determine that the Companies Act provisions didn’t preclude such a reversal? Similarly, on what basis did they treat the omission, from the SPFL’s briefing notes to clubs, of the potential liabilities to broadcasters should the season be ended prematurely? Did they make a judgement that there was no guarantee that the result of the vote would be any different had that information been made available?
easyJambo 3rd August 2020 at 18:09
“We can confirm that the SPFL requested that the judgment, and judgement alone, from the recent arbitration be shared with other member clubs,” a spokesperson told Record Sport exclusively. “A request we opposed.
“Hearts and Partick Thistle always wanted this matter to be heard in open court in the interest of total transparency.
………………………
Note to myself. Don’t rush through anything until you have read it all in full.
easyJambo 3rd August 2020 at 18:09
It could be as simple as the resolution is supported or it isn’t. If it gets the required support then it is passed. If it fails to get that support within 28 days then it fails. As such there really isn’t such a thing as an irrevocable no vote. People can change their minds if they don’t support it in the initial stages.
The SPFL asked people to have their vote to them by 5 OClock on the Friday. However it wasn’t a “deadline”, no matter how many times people describe it as such.
I think people thinking of this as a yes or no vote, on the Friday are missing the point. The simple question is did the resolution receive sufficient support within 28 days, it did. A subsequent discussion with the premiership clubs unanimously agreed that the games could not be played, which would have supported the position.
Jingso.Jimsie 3rd August 2020 at 14:45
‘.. suspect that the party (or parties) who do not wish the proceedings of the Appellate Tribunal published may well be one, two or all of the three panel members’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
At 12.49 today, Jingo.Jimsie, I emailed the following to the Scottish Arbitration Centre:
“In Scotland can an individual member of an Arbitration Tribunal refuse to give consent to making the proceedings public even if the parties have given consent?”
I have not yet had a reply.
[I can’t imagine that the members of such a Tribunal WOULD object as long as their names etc were not disclosed .
However the fact that each member is BOUND by the ‘confidentiality’ might as a corollary suggest that they could well have the RIGHT ,personally. to withhold their consent, and thus block publication?]
ps. It’s a damned nuisance not having the ‘italics’ and ‘underlining’ and ‘bold’ facilities! Where did they go? Or is it just my non-techiness? Anybody?
Am I surprised? “Confusion” they say.
I’m sure that won’t apply to Hearts and Partick when they have to respond to an SFA notice of complaint later this week.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-motherwell-hibs-escape-sfa-22463659
Just a thought:
Is it possible that the Arbitration Panel, in its judgement, has been highly critical of the legal case Hearts and Partick Thistle put forward?
My own view is that those clubs’ had offered no sound legal arguments. Their public proclamations were not really based on the rules, regulations and the legality of the SPFL’s actions. Their complaints seemed to centre around a moral outrage that they were being unfairly ‘punished’. Principally, they seemed to be contending that despite finishing in last place in their respective divisions – following the determination of the final league positions on an average points per game basis – it should not result in their relegations.
Since the 42 clubs had rejected various attempts at reconstruction, HMFC & PTFC seemed to be asking the arbitration panel – on no obviously sound legal basis – to order that the clubs in the automatic relegation place are not relegated and (even more alarmingly) the clubs who won their respective divisions were not promoted.
You would expect that the panel will have forensically dissected the facts of the ‘case’. If the legal position is as clear cut as I believe it to be, the judgement will have laid bare the sheer folly of raising the proceedings in the first place.
If there are particularly adverse comments in the arbitration judgement, it may not be helpful when the clubs answer the SFA charges later in the week.
If HMFC and PTFC really do not wish the judgement to be published, is it because they are concerned about how it may affect the outcome of the SFA charges?
(Batten down the hatches Big Pink).
You know what? By definition, we’re here to question many things of Scottish football, most of all journalism.
I’ve made no secret of my frustration with Phil.
Phil is no stranger to flashing his NUJ card nor does he shy away from questioning many others that subscribe to the same organisation.
The NUJ code of conduct ‘strives to ensure that information disseminated is honestly conveyed, accurate and fair’.
In my opinion, Phil should remind himself of this.
Like all of us, Phil has an opinion. But unlike Phil, few of us are members of the NUJ. And unlike Phil, most of us have a balanced opinion.
I’ve just read his most recent posts on his own website. And I haven’t cringed so much since I last read One of my own last posts.
Really Phil: “Apropos any replacement for Alfie the player would need to be within £1.5M – £2M range, and that’s a stretch”?
This aside, his ‘rugger man’ is as dependable as a horse tip at Hamilton races.
Sticking with Phil’s rugger analogy, his blog is more tired than a French hooker.
Phil – I’m in WS2, where are you?
reasonablechap 3rd August 2020 at 14:54
There is an argument to say that someone like Auldheid isn’t obsessed. That he and others directly involved are simply following through on a legal/company process and that the many, many others who involve themselves in the everyday scan, review and automatic critique on all things blue are the more obvious target of the BBC comedy sketch.
A. Correct
Here’s the thing though !
What’s the root motivation for Auldheid and the others involved ?
A, Accountability via the legal/company process. ( accountability = a situation in which someone is responsible for things that happen and can give a satisfactory reason for them)
That reason has been avoided by SFA in whose tender care Celtic left it)
What/who is blocking them ?
A. Every club that are SFA and SPFL members who do not want to be accountable to their supporters/shareholders, plus the media who have failed in their accountability role as they sup from the same trough as the clubs/SFA/SPFL.
If the motivation is for what they see as ‘sporting integrity’ to be upheld, then why would you continue to support who was blocking it.
A. Indeed.
If they continue to support the PLC who block it, then it isn’t ‘sporting integrity’ that is the only big motive involved.
A. Accountability remains the constant.
Trying to separate the football club from the PLC would see them engaged in a thought process that some might say is hypocritical.
A. There is no separation in reality, just as there is no separation between a club and its support. One cannot live without the other. The separation you refer is a legal construct devised by Doncaster based on a rule change to deal with Romanov that introduced the concept of owner separate from the club that did not exist until Romanov behaviour required the addition. There was another reason to do with the way Brechin? were constituted and the subject was discussed a few years ago on SFM.
For me, the obsession sketch is more about those Sevco threadsters who just can’t get enough of the everyday Rangers fix, whether that be historical, up to date or midnight posts that send everyone off to dream about Green and Whyte.
A. Correct
The biggest irony of all, is that it is what this ‘group’ do, that ridicules their own mantra of new club, no Old Firm, etrc.
A. They might argue the new club mantra is an invention that treats them as stupid and it is that which angers them.
It seems like dodgy Dave (Murray that is) having never been brought to account for his misdeeds at Rangers is still at it, and why wouldn’t he has never been held accountable.
Today more than ever we need accountable governance at all levels civil and football. From CQN:
I had to smile this morning when I saw we were back reading about Oldco Rangers’ old chairmen. Craig Whyte has been exposed by the Daily Record for allegedly trading under his father’s name in a business designed to do pretty much what he did to Oldco Rangers back in 2012.
I wonder if we will ever see Sir David Murray’s reruns given the same treatment? No investigative journalism is needed, just read Sir David’s company, Murray Capital Group’s most recent financial statement on a challenge by HMRC “regarding the tax treatment of payments made under the Group’s Share Based Payment Scheme”.
No provision was made in earlier accounts, as “management considered it unlikely that additional tax would be payable to HMRC.” However, “following further legal consultation….. and communication from HMRC… it was now more likely than not that a future cash outflow would be required.”
Never mind, we should let David discretely get on with being David. Share Based Payment Scheme! Honestly! The company also extended it’s year end from 31 December 2019 to 30 June 2020; always a good sign.
This link might provide some context if it works.
https://twitter.com/sharko67/status/1290246644902973440/photo/1
easyJambo 3rd August 2020 at 23:40
Yes but one is life or death, the other is clearly much more important than that.
I think today is a good day to put things in perspective.
Thousands of teenagers will receive pieces of paper that will determine how their lives proceed from here. THEIR seasons were called before the football season was. They are now being judged on THEIR performances with one quarter of THEIR season still to be completed. There are no points on a league table that indicates how they performed, they will be judged partially on assessment by teachers who carry all the same prejudices that the rest of us have. There are no calls for the last school year to be declared null and void and no calls for the school year to be completed at a later date
Will teenagers resort to court action to have the C pass that they have been awarded bumped up to a B because they could have improved greatly during the period after the schools were closed?
There is no fairness about any pandemic and that is something we have to accept no matter how much it disappoints us. Football clubs will have the opportunity to reverse the unfairness over a year or two on the pitch. How many teenagers will have that same opportunity in a world that is going into the severe economic and employment decline that fighting the pandemic is bringing on?
Looks like the SFA has had to wake up Bryson to deliver some creative spin.
“Imperfectly registered” has been topped by “Misinterpreted protocol”.
[I’m just surprised that Hampden even mentioned the ‘incorrectly tested’ players at all.]
Luckily the Scottish Government was either in a forgiving mood in relation to the ‘misunderstanding’ or are they still viewed as the establishment club and not allowed to be punished by our political leaders!
Although suggesting the possibility of conspiracy I doubt that the present First Minister would have been hesitant in taking action if it was not for our football governing bodies hadn’t quickly taken pre-emptive action.
Just a thought I wonder if the previous FM would have got involved in the relegation debate. I suspect he would have!
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-motherwell-hibs-escape-sfa-22463659?3
……………………..
Just a misunderstanding putting lives at risk, so all ok then.
What exactly was the “Misunderstanding”……Something that could have resulted in the increase of fatal casualties in the wider community, and a banning order slapped on fitba’ nationwide…………Noo that IS in the public’s interest !.
The sale of Hampden Park is now complete,
https://twitter.com/queensparkfc/status/1290618486637510656
Cluster One 4th August 2020 at 13:12
The sale of Hampden Park is now complete,
https://twitter.com/queensparkfc/status/1290618486637510656
‘=====’
Good Luck to QPFC.
Looks like a good move for them, with a developed Lesser Hampden giving options for the future.
IMO, not a good deal for Scottish football which is now burdened with an obsolete stadium.
Never going to get sufficient government funding to replace it: cheaper ‘tinkering’ at best.
(And the SFA doesn’t deserve to receive taxpayers’ money for anything.)
Why couldn’t the SFA copy the Saudis and blame covid for pulling out of the deal…?
I’m sure others will already know about this form of ‘censorship’,
but I’ve just realised that I have been “Shadow Banned” on The Scottish Sun for my Comments!
I post there as StevieBC, and post similar nonsense to what I post here: nothing dodgy or bad words, etc. More banter-like than I would post here.
Whilst logged in to The Scottish Sun to post a Comment, I can then see my posted Comment under the relevant article. Fine.
But, when I have logged out, I can see all the other Comments – but my own, tame Comment is missing.
I suppose it’s a back handed compliment of sorts to be banned?
I’d like to say that I’ve been banned from better rags than The Sun, but this is my first time…that I’m aware of anyway.
It is quite pathetic that the SMSM censors its own output on all things Scottish football – but this paper drags itself down even further by censoring Readers’ Comments.
…I’m guessing all papers do this now…?
Yet another reason why the print industry won’t be missed much…
Ha!
Just realised that I might have a long wait for any other comment on the above…if I’m Shadow Banned from SFM too! 🙂
StevieBC 4th August 2020 at 18:16
‘…Just realised that I might have a long wait for any other comment on the above…if I’m Shadow Banned from SFM too! ?’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
I don’t think you have anything to worry about, StevieBC
Indeed, it’s a badge of honour to be proud of-, being banned by the ‘Sun’.
It means that you ‘re saying something that contains ‘truth’, a concept that has been beyond the ‘Sun’s” intellectual and moral capacities since the Hillsborough disaster.
StevieBC 4th August 2020 at 18:16
Whilst logged in to The Scottish Sun to post a Comment,
…I’m guessing all papers do this now…?
Yet another reason why the print industry won’t be missed much…
……………………………..
They are getting you use to the way things will be when you log on. This will be the way, when the print media has gone.
It is a quiet night, so maybe some people might want have a look at a CAS judgment that was in my inbox yesterday evening, with as much puzzlement as I at how an apparently straightforward matter of fact such as the question of the nationality of a player’s birth-mother could have involved two Appeals in the world of Football!
How difficult could it be to establish an individual’s nationality?
That leads me on to say that while I’m not at all well up in ‘Asian ‘ football in terms of the monetary significance of the Asian Cup to participants therein, but I imagine that the loss of face and dignity might be significant when the cup you’ve ‘won’ is deemed not to have been honestly won because you fielded ineligible players.
Astonishingly, the writ of Bryson appears not to have reached the middle east!
Was there no one there to to suggest to Qatar that since the question of the player’s mother’s nationality and therefore of the player’s eligibility to play for the country had not been raised before he had actually played, he was not ineligible at the time he played, and they were wasting their time and money in appealing?
Brysonism worked a treat before LNS.
If there were any rhyme and reason justifying that, it should have worked for Qatar FA !
But of course, Bryson was not only philosophically unsound, but talking absolute sh.te, as any Qatari football fan would know.
https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Media_Release_6343.pdf
Hopefully the covid spike in Aberdeen isn’t linked to a football match that was played there bcd .
I’m no Samuel Pepys, but I was up betimes this morning: couldn’t believe my eyes when at 6.50 I counted 30 geese flying over head on their way south.
6th of August!
That’s the earliest I’ve ever seen them. Is Scottish Football in for an early winter?
JC, The weather we got yesterday felt a bit like winter! Looking better today.
Aberdeen player tested positive. I hope he recovers, but what happens noo?….Squad isolation for Aberdeen and Sevco?…..Non-contact training?……Government intervention?……Anybody know or hazard a guess.
A second Aberdeen player has tested positive for COVID-19
Hope it does not get traced back to ibrox
Hearts and Partick Thistle have been fined £2,500 each by the Scottish FA for taking the SPFL to court rather than referring the case to arbitration.
Corrupt official 6th August 2020 at 14:58
Aberdeen player tested positive. I hope he recovers, but what happens noo?….Squad isolation for Aberdeen and Sevco?…..Non-contact training?……Government intervention?……Anybody know or hazard a guess.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Surely the same test, trace and isolate rules will apply to everyone the two players have come into contact with. How can that not be the case?
Two players to isolate for 10 days from yesterday. A further siz to self isolate for 14 days from yesterday
Game v St Johnstone is still on, but it doesn’t seem a particularly smart decision.
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/coronavirus-joint-response-group-update-6-august/?rid=13929
Edit: “Six”, not siz.
I’m sure that the decision to let the game go ahead has nothing to do with it being live on Sky, or is the SPFL really that stupid.
Club statement
Further to tonight’s JRG statement, Aberdeen FC confirms that two first team players, who have tested positive for COVID-19 but are asymptomatic, are self-isolating for ten days.
In line with government guidance and procedures from the football authorities, six other players, who were in close proximity with the two positive cases, are also self-isolating for 14 days.
The Club has been in open discussions with the football authorities since this came to light.
As a result, the Club will be missing eight players for the St Johnstone game, which the JRG has confirmed will now go ahead on Saturday.
AFC Chairman, Dave Cormack, said: “After Saturday’s game, with all eyes on Pittodrie, we were once again commended on the stringent processes and measures we had in place. Given the efforts of everyone at the Club and our investment in protecting our most valuable assets, this is a bitter blow.
“With two first team players testing positive for COVID-19, plus six others having to isolate for 14 days, it is also a harsh reminder of the severity and speed of spread of this virus.
“The Club will be carrying out a full investigation but, as an immediate first step, we have reinforced the Club’s COVID-19 protocols and the governing bodies’ guidance with every player and member of staff and will continue to regularly educate and remind everyone of what is, and what is not, acceptable in the current climate.
“We now have to focus on preparing for Saturday’s game under extremely difficult circumstances.”
Short of confining the players to the stadiums in complete isolation, I don’t see how the players can guarantee not becoming infected.
This will result in many more weak teams (and mebbe none) being fielded before the season’s end, (whenever that may be).
Personally I don’t think we’ll get there.
Last season the virus arrived and the divisions were called. With the virus already upon us prior to resumption, it’s not so clear cut when such a decision can be made now, other than govt intervention.
No contingencies appear to have been reached, i.e, more than 20 played, call it. Less than 20 N&V, or whatever. X amount of infected, it’s over. Y amount of game backlog, Nothing. Nada.!
It’s all very patch-up and make-do, keep all digits crossed and we’ll have a big argument aboot it, when the time comes.
I have to admire the will to continue, but Jeezo, the practicalities are immense.
Aberdeen will carry out an investigation as they are set to be without eight self-isolating players for their next three matches after two tested positive for coronavirus.
……………………
And there were calls by some to continue playing last seasons games. How stupid do these people look now
CO, agreed there is plenty of scope for an even bigger bun fight this season in the SPFL.
IMO, the rules regarding if/when games can be played, and if/when the league(s) should be called – should have been clearly publicised before now.
For clubs and fans/paying customers alike.
No room for negotiation or subjectivity: clear, hard rules and no chance of a repeat of last season end.
As the season progresses, whatever happens with the pandemic and restrictions, you just know that the SPFL is going to cock it up – again.
Aberdeen loose 8 players. what are the odds on the other team winning the next match against them?
Those who criticise the SPFL for the method they used to decide the end of last season should look at the system the system used by the SQA to change teacher predicted exam grades for tens of thousands of Scottish schoolkids. The method used by the SQA to decide exam grades is a real national scandal.
I appreciate that this is not the forum to discuss the SQA in any depth but football clubs have a chance to recover their position within a year but many of the kids affected are likely to be disadvantaged for years to come and possibly never will recover.
Our young people are being treated shockingly!
StevieBC 6th August 2020 at 22:33
CO, agreed there is plenty of scope for an even bigger bun fight this season in the SPFL
To be fair to the SPFL they did try to get extraordinary covid powers to adapt on the hoof, but the clubs said naw. They would have been wide-ranging powers.
The truth is though that to whack out legally binding rules to catch-all possible scenarios would be impossible in the time-frame we had. An "On the hoof what we say goes", was all they could do, not only to avoid a legal/arbitration challenge, but to do the best for the game, without the influence of club self interest or shit stirrers.
Cluster One 6th August 2020 at 20:06
Hearts and Partick Thistle have been fined £2,500 each by the Scottish FA for taking the SPFL to court rather than referring the case to arbitration.
So if anyone wants to ignore that rule they can, it only costs £2,500.
Homunculus 7th August 2020 at 00:36
Cluster One 6th August 2020 at 20:06
Hearts and Partick Thistle have been fined £2,500 each by the Scottish FA for taking the SPFL to court rather than referring the case to arbitration.
So if anyone wants to ignore that rule they can, it only costs £2,500
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Or in the case of Oldco Rangers, no fine at all.
Cluster One 6th August 2020 at 22:16
……………………
And there were calls by some to continue playing last seasons games. How stupid do these people look now?
…………………………..
Presumably equally as stupid as those who were clambering for a 1 August start to the Premiership and specific clubs trying to put pressure on the Scot Gov to allow fans into stadiums.
adam812 7th August 2020 at 00:23
Those who criticise the SPFL for the method they used to decide the end of last season should look at the system the system used by the SQA to change teacher predicted exam grades for tens of thousands of Scottish schoolkids. The method used by the SQA to decide exam grades is a real national scandal.
I appreciate that this is not the forum to discuss the SQA in any depth but football clubs have a chance to recover their position within a year but many of the kids affected are likely to be disadvantaged for years to come and possibly never will recover.
Our young people are being treated shockingly!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The parallel is definitely there. The methodology failed to deal with the circumstances of individual pupils performance. (a bit like PPG failing to deal with the relative merits of the opposition already played or still to be faced by an individual team, current form etc.). However there is an appeal process to right the wrongs. The SQA previously dealt with a few thousand appeals. This year it may be tens of thousands and rightly so.
However it is how the MSM is portraying the results that generates much of the heat. It was initially reported as being disadvantaged kids being disproportionately moderated when compared to the schools in more affluent areas, but the bulk of new coverage has moved on to highlight individual cases.
The statistics show that the teachers’ predicted grades, compared to last year’s results, were inflated for all social groups, but with the biggest increase for the most deprived pupils. It is therefore unsurprising that any moderation would have the greatest impact on that group. However, the final year on year increase in Higher pass rates was greater for the most disadvantaged than that for the most affluent kids, so as a group they did not lose out.
https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1291282720891580417
So the St Johnstone v Aberdeen game has been called off. I assume that their subsequent games against Hamilton and Celtic will follow.
https://twitter.com/BBCSportScot/status/1291684214912552960
The SPFL wouldn’t want to disproportionately disadvantage individual teams after all. 🙁
“…But Minister for public health and sport Joe Fitzpatrick had called a meeting with the Scottish FA and SPFL for Friday to discuss the situation after what a government statement called “a clear breach of the rules…”.
(From the BBC report).
On the face of it, and in contradiction to previous football generated statements, the Govt. has forced this decision…?
The original decision to continue with the (televised) game didn’t make sense.
IMO, I don’t think fans will see the inside of a stadium this side of Christmas.
wottpi 7th August 2020 at 09:45
……………………
Stupid people don’t know they are stupid.
easyJambo 7th August 2020 at 11:58
So the St Johnstone v Aberdeen game has been called off. I assume that their subsequent games against Hamilton and Celtic will follow.
https://twitter.com/BBCSportScot/status/1291684214912552960
The SPFL wouldn’t want to disproportionately disadvantage individual teams after all
………………………
Would have to. Now we have a back log even before the winter kicks in. A strong worded letter sent is what is needed here.
wottpi 7th August 2020 at 09:45
Presumably equally as stupid as those who were clambering for a 1 August start to the Premiership and specific clubs trying to put pressure on the Scot Gov to allow fans into stadiums.
That was / is a Scottish Government decision.
They allowed games to be played when they thought it appropriate.
They will allow fans back when they deem it appropriate.
Interested parties lobbying is hardly an unusual thing. Even if parties with different agendas are lobbying at the same time. At the end of the day the Government will make the decision.
Cluster One 7th August 2020 at 12:15
‘Stupid people don’t know they are stupid.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””
Well, I’ve just discovered that I have to own up to being stupid.
Just discovered that Bayer Leverkusen is just a works team!
In so far as I thought about them at all, I kind of assumed that Bayer was a place- like ‘Bayern’. Silly me.
“Now Bayer, maker of the weedkiller Roundup, whose primary ingredient is glyphosate, has agreed to pay more than $10 billion to settle thousands of lawsuits which claim that the chemical causes cancer’
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jordanstrickler/2020/06/25/bayer-to-pay-more-than-10-billion-in-roundup-settlement/#6d1f0dae60da
One lives and learns!
Aberdeen players clearly being blamed for the postponement of the game by the govt.
Should the players involved be punished?
Just the other week, Hampden declined to punish clubs for ‘misinterpretating protocols’ with testing…so how can individuals be held accountable?
For all Celtic fans’ reservations, in the 25 years since Desmond effectively took the reins, it has won the Scottish title 15 times compared to 10 for its rival Glasgow Rangers. Celtic has won the last eight in a row, a period during which Rangers almost went bust and had to fight back from a forced spell in the bottom tier of the Scottish league pyramid.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/why-is-dermot-desmond-investing-2m-in-shamrock-rovers-1.4053798
Where do these people get this mince from ?
StevieBC @ 1334hrs:
I suspect that the Scottish Government’s involvement will prevent AFC from receiving any ‘football’ punishment, or St.J being awarded the three points.
As quoted in the DR:
‘Following the postponement, the Joint Response Group issued a statement explaining how the decision was reached.
It read: “Following a meeting this morning between the Minister for Public Health, Sport and Wellbeing, Joe FitzPatrick, the Scottish FA chief executive, Ian Maxwell, and the chief executive of the SPFL, Neil Doncaster, to further examine the circumstances around the self-isolation of eight Aberdeen FC players, a request was received from Scottish Government – and agreement reached – to postpone Saturday’s Scottish Premiership match against St Johnstone.
“There is an evolving public health outbreak in Aberdeen and the minister conveyed the need for additional work to provide further assurance around Aberdeen FC’ s adherence to the agreed protocols.
“Given the overriding responsibility to public health, the subsequent advice and discussion with the minister this morning means that the Joint Response Group must adhere to the request to postpone the match.”‘
The important bit being, ‘…a request was received from Scottish Government…to postpone…’, which nicely covers the SFA’s & SPFL’s erchies. I expect AFC will quietly discipline the players (medical confidentiality, natch!). The loser here is St.J, who may face a stronger, more in-form AFC when the fixture is re-arranged.
I have it on good authority that the Aberdeen players only went to the bar to test their eyesight!
As a Dons fan I think we should forfeit the points as it was clearly a breach of the protocol.
If it had been an individual player who unwittingly picked it up then that’s different matter, but 8 players going to bar that’s different
Mind you 8 turning up was better none that turned up for the Rangers game itself
Menace 7th August 2020 at 16:03
As a Dons fan I think we should forfeit the points as it was clearly a breach of the protocol.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I agree.
I don’t see the reasoning on the decision to only postpone Saturday’s game, but allow the Hamilton and Celtic games to me played with a weakened team. Either all or no games should be played.
I’d hope that it is nothing to do with both Celtic and Hamilton both having representatives on the SPFL Board and are acting in their self interest.
Sorry easyJambo but to even suggest that there is some conspiracy going on at the SPFL in relation to the response the breaching of the Covid-19 protocols by the Aberdeen players makes you sound like another poster who describes himself as reasonable!
I think the reasoning for the game being postponed is straightforward, the government has overruled the SPFL on this occasion. Last night, the SPFL stated that tomorrow’s game would go ahead. I wonder how clear the specific regulations were made to the players, eight is quite a number to transgress and it wasn’t as if they went somewhere quiet, away from prying eyes?
And yes, having Aberdeen as my big team I’ll do the gag. No, there is no risk of cross infection to the Ibrox side last Saturday since to do so would have required us to get within 2m of them.
Joking apart I understand the decision to cancel the game on health grounds. I equally understand the impression, the fact even, that St Johnstone are the bigger losers here. It has opened a raft of questions though as to what players can and cannot do and what the SPFL’s response ordinarily, untouched by Scottish Government’s hand, would have been. One assumes it will now require to be the set response for similar instances going forwards. Asking a team missing probably 6 first team players to fulfil a fixture? I’ll be amazed if we can navigate a season with that hanging in the background. An excellent threat for sure, but a nightmarish reality if it actually has to be applied. Our very own nuclear deterrent.
The lack of authoritative and strong governance of Scottish football is now bordering on farcical.The SFA fine for Hearts and Partick Thistle is paltry and has been pointed out is hardly a warning to other clubs not to do the same.Ealing comedy like mismanagement of the CVID protocols starting with TRFC and now Aberdeen is laughable if ’twere not so serious.Aberdeen FC are responsible for their players and in this instance I agree a 3 point forfeit in favour St Johnstone and the same for the following games AFC cannot complete. The selfish actions of the players has put not only the football season at risk but more importantly lives.They should be named and shamed.Utter disgrace.
Gaslamp 7th August 2020 at 16:52
I think the reasoning for the game being postponed is straightforward, the government has overruled the SPFL on this occasion. Last night, the SPFL stated that tomorrow’s game would go ahead. I wonder how clear the specific regulations were made to the players, eight is quite a number to transgress and it wasn’t as if they went somewhere quiet, away from prying eyes?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Football lobbied for and was granted an exemption for elite sport/training/contact/bubbles, all subject to testing and adherence to the same controls as the rest of the population when outside their working environment.
Part of the general advice is groups of 8 from 3 households indoors. Eight people from eight different households is not within the current guidelines.
The risk is that any infection inadvertently picked up outside football will be more likely to be transmitted because of their “work” environment.
Here are some extracts from Phase 3 – Step 3 guidelines for the resumption of elite sport.
https://sportscotland.org.uk/media/5907/phase-3-resumption-of-performance-sport-step-3-final-draft.pdf
The only other explanation I can come up with was that the eight players went to the pub to check that their eyesight would be OK for the trip down to Perth at the weekend.:)
I take the point GunnerB. But I suspect it will not be difficult to photograph 4 players (not even from the same team who live apart) out together socially in the very near future. The Aberdeen players have no excuse – they appear to have been in flagrant breach and the only thing to be determined is what level of knowledge of their plans the Club actually had (Oh for Sir Alex and his network, and in the days before mobile phones too). But the proposed solution by the SPFL prior to Nicola’s input – to enforce in this case 3 matches with 6 first team players missing and hell mend em – that would have been a very interesting precedent to set and to maintain. I suspect it will be revisited and for what its worth I think the chances of it being consistently applied are almost nil. Home many League 1 and 2 teams could even field a team for instance?
Im rather concerned re the FMs and the SGs response to some young men going to the pub. There has not been a cat 1a worker told not to go to the pub.
These young men are being victimised for catching a virus- could’ve happened anywhere. They are being blamed, we are being told its their fault, they are being portrayed as part of a wider problem of antisocial behaviour within the context of the global pandemic in Scotland.
They have done nothing wrong- why the big fuss- im sure you couldn’t enforce anyone not to do what is legal despite what a contract says or “rules”?
martin c 7th August 2020 at 18:10
Im rather concerned re the FMs and the SGs response to some young men going to the pub. There has not been a cat 1a worker told not to go to the pub.
These young men are being victimised for catching a virus- could’ve happened anywhere. They are being blamed, we are being told its their fault, they are being portrayed as part of a wider problem of antisocial behaviour within the context of the global pandemic in Scotland.
They have done nothing wrong- why the big fuss- im sure you couldn’t enforce anyone not to do what is legal despite what a contract says or “rules”?
The first problem that they have is that professional footballers (rightly or wrongly) are seen, as Nicola Sturgeon said today, to be “role models”. In the current circumstances, role models arguably carry a greater responsibility (again, rightly or wrongly) for the consequences of their actions.
The second problem that they have is that their actions appear to have been outside of what is permissible in their workplace and occupation at the present time. That in itself should be the basis of disciplinary action from their employer.
If eight pilots went on the lash the night before attempting to fly transatlantic 747s (other aeroplanes are available) no one would bat an eyelid at the inevitable tribunals, sackings and possible criminal charges. Likewise HGV drivers (with something more earthbound than a Jumbo). Circumstances have changed, and none of us can behave exactly as we did before.
Professional sport has been allowed to restart partly under sufferance and partly, I think, as an experiment. It behoves all involved professionally to behave professionally and to adhere to all the relevant guidelines/rules/advice at all times.
Two quick final points:
You could argue that going drinking after their weekend performance is unprofessional in the first place.
I’d favour awarding a 3-0 to St Johnstone, and any other teams involved in games needing to be cancelled under circumstances such as this. Aside from anything else, why give the players involved a chance to get appearance money or a win bonus for a fixture that had to be rearranged because of their own indiscipline and/or stupidity?
As a Dons fan I too believe the outcome here should have been 3-0 St J or perhaps a radical 1-0 to keep some balance in the league as I can not see us getting through this season with this being the only case. Lower divisions should get more leeway given the number of part timers involved. I’m not trying to defend the guilty 8 but when you see scenes around beaches, pubs, footballl celebrations etc around the UK I’m frankly amazed that this is the first spike of it’s kind. Postponing games will only clog up the fixture list and it won’t take much to make it difficult to finish this season. The players broke the protocol, the club need to take the hit.
For those seeking name and shame, public floggings and bans I would be cautious, it could be anybody next.
One or even two individuals with differing contact points is understandable and hopefully containable. Eight!! naah name and shame. If another group of so called professionals are similarly compromised then name and shame and flog away.Fines and opprobrium might make others see sense.
Gaslamp 7th August 2020 at 15:18
I have it on good authority that the Aberdeen players only went to the bar to test their eyesight!
……………………
I laughed at that. Not often you get a post on SFM that can make me smile.
Cluster One 7th August 2020 at 21:35
‘… Not often you get a post on SFM that can make me smile.’
“””””””””””””””””””””
Oh, I don’t know, Cluster One!
I’ve enjoyed a good few laughs at the clever wit of some posters
as well as at the foolishness of the attempts by the occasional ‘Knut’ , whose posts try as INEFFECTUALLY to tell us that TRFC of 2012 creation is the very same as RFC of 1872 birth and 2012 death, as KNUT [King Canute ] tried to hold back the incoming tide!
Knut’s [Canute’s] ridiculous foolishness was at least recorded as being such by the scribes of the day.
Sadly, our ‘recorders’ , the scribes of the SMSM, do not cherish Truth, and continue to propagate the untruthful absurdity that a football club first given entitlement to a place in Scottish Professional football in 2012 is the very same football club that in 2012 lost its entitlement to play in Scottish Professional Football by being Liquidated after 140 years, for its sports cheating for a decade before 2012.
Lots of good laughs at that
I stumbled upon this relatively interesting site a few minutes ago, while having another look at ‘Castore’
https://pitchbook.com/profiles/company/180720-10#overview
See trying to find out who actually makes money out of whatever high street store ,or any feckin business? Closed book.
I could go innocently to buy a pie tomorrow from ‘Peggy’s pies’ doon the road [fictional business!] only to find that I’m putting money into the pockets of ,say, some totally undesirable person that I would sooner see hanged because ‘Peggy’s Pies’ are ultimately owned by some feckin bad article.
Not that I suggest for a minute that Castore is a bad article, or that the Beahon boys are the same kind of people who would try all kinds of dodgy tax evasion schemes favoured by some sports clubs, or that Andy Murray would ever allow himself to be associated with such.
Just that the impenetrability of ‘business’ leaves us all in a kind of no-man’s land in which we may be unintentionally supporting businesses, causes, ideologies that are repugnant to us!
The Aberdeen games should go ahead, with players from both sides tested and only those who were clear of covid allowed to play.
Everyone knows the rules, if you break them you should suffer the consequences. If a club has players not available because they test positive, then play someone else.
That’s what every other business is doing. If someone is not available because they have covid then the business has to adapt.
This should be the case for all of the clubs.
Absolutely Homunculus, particularly the last line. Which is what I suspect will make it completely unworkable.
I know it’s Tom English…but he’s written a half decent article here about the Aberdeen fiasco, IMO.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53701572
I think the lesson of the Aberdeen players’ issue is that the level of intelligence of footballers is not uniformly high. Yes, there is a degree of self-entitlement inherent in those who ignore guidelines, but I also believe that lack of understanding is also a big factor.
The problem for footballers is that they are talking about their very livelihoods, so the level of stupidity which allows them to indulge in that sort of behaviour causes me to think that there needs to be some kind of audit process introduced.
My admiration for Derek McInnes grew a bit yesterday too. Contrite on behalf of the wrondoers, empathetic to the plight of the rest of the country, willing to accept responsibility for things. Gracious, dignified and an example of how to react when you are bang to rights.
Graham Spiers on the other hand, chose to blame the Scottish Government. My admiration for that is inversely proportional to that of McInnes.
A few folk contacted us regarding the absence of the edit facility in the past week or so. It had been turned off (as many other functions were) to try to identify a problem with the site code.
The site really urgently needs an update which I hope to address soon. The plan is to start with something minimal, and build on it. Crucially it will contain new updated code, and should be less buggy and a bit quicker and more responsive. That is on the timeline for September.
Anyway, the edit facility is now reactivated, so I hope that is a result for John C and others 🙂
I’m getting confused with this one, it’s Aberdeen and the Aberdeen players who have broken the rules. However postponing the game seems to be doing them a favour. They should be forced to play the game, with players who are tested and negative, surely postponing the game is good for them.
I could understand it if there was an issue with fans travelling from Aberdeen, but that’s not the case just now.
A genuine question, can someone tell me what I am missing.
Big Pink 8th August 2020 at 10:28
'. the edit facility is now reactivated, so I hope that is a result for John C and others..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I an bery gratfil that thee etid factility has bein ristord. Thank you.
Just in time John Clark??
Homunculus @ 1034hrs:
Quite.
It’s St. Johnstone who are being penalised for matters which are, essentially, internal to AFC.
St.J had the chance to play an AFC team that was rubbish last week & weakened (by their own players!) this week. They’ve prepared all week physically & the ground has been set up at a cost of several thousand pounds. Through no fault of theirs, they’ve now got an even-more compressed playing schedule.
Who knows what sort of AFC will show up for the re-arranged fixture? A different, probably tougher opponent, from that which would have turned up today; that’s for sure.
John Clark 8th August 2020 at 10:37
……………..
I laughed at that. More than i should have.
…………..
Crucially it will contain new updated code, and should be less buggy.Two big smiles in two days.I feel i have had an update code;-)
Homunculus 8th August 2020 at 10:34
I’m getting confused with this one, it’s Aberdeen and the Aberdeen players who have broken the rules. However postponing the game seems to be doing them a favour. They should be forced to play the game, with players who are tested and negative, surely postponing the game is good for them.
I could understand it if there was an issue with fans travelling from Aberdeen, but that’s not the case just now.
A genuine question, can someone tell me what I am missing.
==================================
It is a difficult one as there are two conflicting views on the situation.
One is that the Aberdeen players broke the rules and should be punished (by the club or the SFA?). Also that the club should be forced to play with a depleted squad, as the situation was of their own making.
The alternative view is that the players were only guilty of breaching the government guidelines like many others who went out on the town last Saturday, but failed to social distance or met indoors in groups of more than three households. Two players tested positive for the virus, so that is a no brainer in terms of their exclusion. However for the other six, they have tested negative, and therefore are fit and able to play, but are being prevented from doing so because of government restrictions. In that situation there is a case for the game being postponed (a bit like have three players unavailable because they are on international duty).
My personal view is that the players involved are fortunate to be "back at work" at this time. Football, the clubs, the players, the SPFL and the SFA all signed up to a framework that would allow them to get back to playing once again in advance of other activities that remain restricted (other sports, gyms, swimming pools etc). The players have abused the trust that has been placed in them. The club has a responsibility to ensure that all their players knew what was required of them. There was nothing to stop any individual player going out for a meal and a drink with their partner, but for eight of them to go out as a group was irresponsible. In my view, the club should be made to play the game with a weakened squad, or to forfeit the points.
…and a follow up question is: what happens if/when another group of footballers is caught breaking the agreed regulations?
Is their next game automatically postponed, or not?
Are there are any repercussions for the offending players/club?
IMO, there is a strong argument for Aberdeen forfeiting the 3 points – for effectively 'not turning up' for the St.Johnstone game due to their own 'mismanagement'.
And, why can't Hampden communicate clearly what would happen with a similar set of circumstances in future – so the fans know what the rules are?
If only the clubs had agreed that the SPFL board had the delegated powers to make decisions in light of Covid-19 issues arising!
This is a blunt reminder that Covid-19 has not gone away yet and that the Scottish Govt has the final say no matter what anybody might suggest.
StevieBC 8th August 2020 at 11:57
And, why can't Hampden communicate clearly what would happen with a similar set of circumstances in future – so the fans know what the rules are?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That would be my own question. The SFA and SPFL must have considered the various scenarios of what they would do if one, or two players, or worse still a whole squad was put in isolation. If their answer was that they would wait and see the circumstances before deciding what to do, then that is complete failure of leadership.
StevieBC 8th August 2020 at 11:57
And, why can't Hampden communicate clearly what would happen with a similar set of circumstances in future – so the fans know what the rules are?
————————————————————————-
Am I not tight in saying the footballing authorities wanted the game to go ahead.
To me this looks like the Scottish Government sending out a strong message to football, we are in charge, follow our rules.
Maybe they should have done it sooner, when a game took place when the test results weren't even in.
Homunculus 8th August 2020 at 13:11
To me this looks like the Scottish Government sending out a strong message to football, we are in charge, follow our rules.
+++++++++++++++++
I have to say this 'clear message to football' theme I find a little disturbing. This is one incident involving one football club, and there is is no evidence of widespread flaunting of the rules involving players from other clubs. Politicians love to grandstand when it comes to football as we saw early lockdown when footballers were the only wealthy people targeted for criticism by politicians. If it becomes clear there is widespread abuse of the rules within the game then fine, but in my opinion this Scottish Government in particular hold football and football fans in very low regard, and will never miss a chance to have a go. Remember this Government were perfectly happy for football fans to be prosecuted for 'crimes' that other citizens were free to commit without punishment, just because they were not doing it within a football ground.
I agree UTH, sacking players, long bans or public flogging(and that’s just the Dons fans’ forum!) is just Mr angry sound bites. Three points to the opposition is the only way otherwise we are in for a convoluted Barney every time this happens. If it’s a player or players testing positive then play on but if it gets to the stage that the game is off as directed by govt medical guidance then it’s a forfeit. That way it’s the club responsibility to manage their staff. It’s only fitba.
upthehoops 8th August 2020 at 13:31
This is one incident involving one football club, and there is is no evidence of widespread flaunting of the rules involving players from other clubs.
==============================
There were previous issues involving testing by Hibs, Motherwell, St Mirren and Sevcovoid.
Those were apparently swept under a carpet of misunderstanding.
I suspect that several clubs have been stretching the rules. I think that the new SG message is one that no further “misunderstandings” of what is required will be tolerated, otherwise Football will be consigned to a “Phase 4” easing of restrictions and forget all thought of the early return of fans . What is more important, football, the hospitality industry or schools? I suspect that football will come last in that ranking.
Edit: A statement from the Aberdeen players.
https://twitter.com/AberdeenFC/status/1292092282246766594/photo/1
There is also the "role model" issue.
Whilst I do not even remotely consider the vast majority of football players suitable as role models there is little doubt they have influence on quite a lot of people. In particular the young and the easily influenced.
The Scottish Government will probably have factored that in to any action they have taken.
However, the game should have gone ahead. The wrong people are being punished here. Primarily St Johnston and their support.
Homunculus @ 15.12
However, the game should have gone ahead. The wrong people are being punished here. Primarily St Johnston and their support.
—————————————————
AFC wanted the game to go ahead. It was a government decision. Anyway players now named and statement issued.
Hayes
Devlin
Anderson
Bryson
McGeouch
McKenna
Kennedy
Cosgrove
That’s a rather poor statement issued on behalf of the players. ‘We’re daft laddies & it’s too complicated for us simple footballers.Who knew there wis a pandemic? Restrictions? We hudnae noticed, like. We didnae ken it wis wrang, honest!’ Aye right.
PFA Scotland has a snazzy mission statement, part of which reads:
‘PFA Scotland is run by players for players and the experience within our team means we are committed to providing our members with the best possible advice and representation.’
Michael Devlin is on the Management Committee of PFA Scotland. He is also the official AFC union representative.
I see that while the last 16 ties in the 2019/20 CL are being completed, qualifying rounds for the 2020/21 tournament started today, with Linfield progressing to the Preliminary Round final in a one off tie agaist a side from San Marino. Celtic should find out their first qualifying round opponent tomorrow.
I note that UEFA has already advised what will happen in the event of one or both clubs being unable to complete their fixtures because of Covid restrictions imposed by their governments, or in the event of positive tests. To put it simply, those clubs will forfeit the tie. If the whole qualifying tournament is curtailed then UEFA will determine who makes the group stages.
The lack of similar guidance from the SFA and SPFL is in stark contrast.
easyJambo 8th August 2020 at 20:06
Saying you will call games off is much easier than saying you will definitely play them. The former is fairly straight forward, the latter isn't.
From what I can see the football authorities wanted the Aberdeen game to go ahead, however the Scottish Government said, no it won't. If there are recurrences the Scottish Government may well just stop football in Scotland altogether.
That left the football authorities with two choices, postpone it or Aberdeen forfeit. The justification for them forfeiting would be that it was the Aberdeen players who caused the problem, therefore the club should suffer the consequences.
It should have been play the game or Aberdeen forfeiting, however we now have a precedent. The wrong one as far as I am concerned.
If Aberdeen had eleven -ve testing players available, I don't see any reason why the match with St J could not go ahead.
If the game was postponed due to govt intervention there were two reasonable ways forward.
Forfeit, and the game awarded to St J…. Or, as has happened, the game be rescheduled, Aberdeen should only be permitted to field players who were eligible for the original fixture date.
SG said the match with St. J could not go ahead because of the risk of players and other staff leaving Aberdeen and possibly transmitting the virus to other parts of Scotland. Leaving aside that this is inconsistent with their own guidelines as there is no restriction on anyone else travelling to and from Aberdeen from surrounding areas in the course of their employment, the principle and precedent seems to be that teams may not travel from areas with high COVID incidence to play matches away from home. That requires some consideration, to say the least.
The SPFL are going to have to come up with some hard and fast rules here, firstly to try to take the initiative from the SG and secondly in anticipation of clubs having multiple players unavailable, or games postponed by the SG. The next flare up could be anywhere, and on the SG's logic, I can't see how AFC can play any matches until there is a respite in the outbreak there.
Corrupt official 8th August 2020 at 23:20
'… If the game was postponed due to govt intervention there were two reasonable ways forward. ..
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Who remembers 'There's only one team in Tallin' ?
That remarkable occasion in 1996, when Estonia literally did not turn up for the kick-off at the revised time ( afternoon , rather than evening, because we complained that their lousy floodlighting was farcical) and instead turned up at the originally scheduled time?
There was no question of there being a postponement! No, the game went ahead! Remember?
I wonder whether that ought not to have been done in the St J /Aberdeen case?
One football club , by the actions of some of their players, rendered itself incapable ( by breaching agreed conditions with Government and the Joint Response Group) of legitimately 'turning up'.
Perhaps St J should have been allowed to take the field, kick-off on the whistle, with the ref blowing for full-time a second or two later?
Or is that just too, too ridiculously far out?
Whatever, it was fun looking back to that bizarre episode, and realising that there was firm 'governance' that dealt with an out-of-course situation.
John Clark 9th August 2020 at 00:04 Corrupt official 8th August 2020 at 23:20
'… If the game was postponed due to govt intervention there were two reasonable ways forward. .. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Who remembers 'There's only one team in Tallin' ?
≠========
That makes three reasonable ways John. ☺
macfurgly
"SG says the match with St J could not go ahead …"
What's it got to do with him?!
Big Pink mentioned something negative about the general level of intelligence amongst footballers in Scotland. Time for Leigh Griffiths to enter stage left……..
Celtic striker Leigh Griffiths has received another warning over his conduct after holding a gathering at his house.
Pictures emerged on social media of a get-together at the Parkhead star’s house that appeared to breach the Scottish Government’s current social distancing guidelines.
Full article at link below
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/leigh-griffiths-warned-celtic-again-22488912
========================
It seems very apparent that all clubs need to get their employees together and painstakingly go through all the guidelines that need to be followed. Emphasizing exactly how important it is to them as individuals and the club.
We are talking about an existential threat to clubs and actions have to start to reflect that.
The lack of leadership coming from the SPFL is very apparent. They will soon be using the time honoured line of we can only do what the clubs tell us,… makes it short odds that we’ll be seeing another omnishambles coming down the line. It seems as if requesting more power from the clubs was more a box ticking exercise to have the excuse ready to go. Reminds me of efforts towards reconstruction.
When the SPFL complained of cost regarding an Independent Inquiry, I said that it might prove more costly not to have one and follow through on any subsequent reforms suggested/considered. I reckon I’ll be proven correct.
All things considered, there is an air of inevitability regards where this will end up. Unless an effective vaccine is developed, I think 2021 will be a very bad year for Scottish football clubs.
The issue would have been (I think) how does the SPFL order a game to be forfeit if “the offending side” is standing there ready to play?
What will happen if for instance in the hypothetical match City versus Utd, 4 of City’s players and families are pictured in Dobbies having lunch in close proximity and the pictures hit the Rags websites? Or, as is perfectly possible, 2 from each side?
i assume that’s the purpose of tomorrow’s zoom call with managers and captains.
Similarly I’m not sure on what grounds the SG could act. They can order the postponement, as they did, not the forfeit.
and of course, if City happen to be top 5 premiership and Utd are part time, is it even fair to apply the play or forfeit rule?
Happy to corrected but I believe the Good Friday resolution only applied to season 2019/20.
Last month the SPFL board failed to get special ‘Covid powers’ for going forward.
Therefore effectively the majority of clubs have voted to go with a rule book that has no specific rules for dealing with Covid related issues.
My reading of the SPFL rule book is that, due to a strong request from the Scot Gov, the St J v Aberdeen game was technically called off by the SPFL board. As such the game has simply been rescheduled for a later date in line with the agreed rules.
End of story, move along, nothing to see here. Rules is rules, the majority of clubs have spoken and all that kind of stuff.
Agreed wottpi. Aberdeen in a way actually called their bluff and said ok we’ll play. The approach now seems to be that we’ll all simply avoid there being a repeat rather than address what I personally think is inevitable at some point.
and FWIW I still wouldn’t agree with giving “them upstairs“ executive powers to do what they deem fair. They negated that possibility a long time ago.
Smugas 9th August 2020 at 11:18
Similarly I’m not sure on what grounds the SG could act. They can order the postponement, as they did, not the forfeit.
==============================
I don't imagine they ordered either.
More likely they said the fixture would not go ahead at this time. It's none of their business what the SPFL and clubs do in order to comply. Postponing the game and forfeiture both achieve that end.
However I do take your point with regards the basis for forfeiture if both teams are ready to play but not allowed to. I have been thinking about that myself and I don't think there is an easy answer.
Just another example of a pretty much no win situation. Bearing in mind it is the players and the clubs who have caused this, it would have been perfectly easy to avoid, just stick to the rules.
Further to my earlier comment stating AFC should forfeit the match, I had a thought – dangerous I know
What if none of the players had caught the virus, would we have known they were out at all ? Ok there may be some pictures on social media going about, but I reckon it would have been quietly deal with behind closed doors, as many a footballers misdemeanours are done
Which begs the question, were there any other football clubs players out for a beer on Saturday night but by luck not resulting in a positive test
You have to remember Menace the “being out” and the positive test are not necessarily related. As I understand it, Players 1-4 can be out and player 5, who is within just one of 1-4’s training bubble can test positive for the fan to struggle.
At the very least , I would have thought that the AFC players would be charged with bringing the game into disrepute , because that is what they have done .
Two players have tested positive for coronavirus as a result of the outing.
…
I hope these players make a full recovery, their family’s must be in turmoil.They won’t give a feck if a game is postoned or abandoned or rescheduled. They will just be praying that their family member gets through it.
Could I respectively suggest that people try their best, and I know it's not always possible, to stick to the facts.
I know that the nature of conspiracy theories is such that for many the facts prove nothing and just add to their sense of injustice to the extent that some reasonable people will probably claim that one club chairman not only controls Scottish football but also Judges and Sheriffs on the Sfa arbitration list!
Have we not had enough of false claims over the last few months?
It would be helpful if someone could find out and share the rules our football clubs, players and officials are supposed to be following for a start.
There's nothing wrong with pointing out that a player was seen in the pub or had a party for a child's birthday but that doesn't automatically mean that they have breached any lockdown rules. We need to know if they are subject to different rules from the rest of us too.
I know I have just suggested sticking with the facts but think about this conspiracy theory.
If a Government had a problem it wished to move off the front page what better than a group of footballers breaching social distancing rules?
For those not convinced look at last week's headlines which I will paraphrase as "Scottish Government SQA Exams Fiasco!"
Why would football players be subject to different rules than everyone else. Do you have any reason to believe that. I haven't seen anything.
Lille handed FFP restrictions by UEFA
https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2020/lille-handed-ffp-restrictions-by-uefa/
The agreement lasts until the 2023/24 campaign, the date by which LOSC must have balanced their books. As a result, they will face four major restrictions during this period.
Firstly, Lille will have to pay UEFA €9m a year from the money they make in European competition. This is a sum that will come down to €3m the moment that LOSC reaches budgetary equilibrium, should they do so before the 2023/24 season.
……………………
I don’t hold out much hope of a big transfer from the ibrox club to Lille anytime soon
Cluster One, It has been reported that the two Aberdeen players who tested positive for Covid 19 are asymptomatic. Their families may be experiencing turmoil but at least they know exactly where they stand – the player has to isolate from other family members and nobody is unwell. Contrast that to most other families with members going out to work who can only get a Covid test if they exhibit symptoms.
Gaslamp 9th August 2020 at 16:30
Contrast that to most other families with members going out to work who can only get a Covid test if they exhibit symptoms.
………………
Been there done that.
From The Guardian;
"Tax affairs of 246 footballers being investigated by HMRC in 2019-20
– Tax authorities increasingly concerned by tax loophole
– Players pay 19% tax on image rights, but 45% on wages
…
HMRC believes that lots of lesser-known footballers are effectively avoiding tax by getting paid huge sums for image rights that HMRC views as overpriced…"
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/aug/10/tax-affairs-of-246-footballers-being-investigated-by-hmrc-in-2019-20
Gaslamp 9th August 2020 at 16:30
Contrast that to most other families with members going out to work who can only get a Covid test if they exhibit symptoms.
===================
Our Primary school teachers return this week and can have a class of up to 33 children who don't have to wear face coverings or keep social distancing. Their Secondary colleagues have to deal with young adults who again don't have to wear face coverings or distance.
Schools seem to be deemed some kind of magical places where unlike shops etc. no protection is necessary. I don't think enough thought has been put into the opening of schools as it is a fact that children are carriers of the virus without being affected themselves. We'll just have to wait and see what happens next.
StevieBC 10th August 2020 at 15:03
"..HMRC believes that lots of lesser-known footballers are effectively avoiding tax by getting paid huge sums for image rights that HMRC views as overpriced…"
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
'..Players pay 19% tax on image rights, but 45% on wages.'
I wonder if there is another part-time porn movie actor/tax adviser in the background?
Does the English FA have people able to ask, and more diligent and willing to ask than their counterparts in the SFA, searching questions of clubs about the wages they pay to their players, if the wages seem a disproportionately low relative to the transfer value of a player?
Is there another little dirty cheating scheme in operation?
John Clark 10th August 2020 at 18:01
StevieBC 10th August 2020 at 15:03
"..HMRC…
Does the English FA have people able to ask, and more diligent and willing to ask than their counterparts in the SFA, searching questions of clubs about the wages they pay to their players, if the wages seem a disproportionately low relative to the transfer value of a player?…
=======
There has been discussion in the past on SFM about players' image rights payments. IIRC, that was about foreign players in England receiving image payments to an offshore trust(?)
On the face if it, it looks like a simpler scheme than an EBT.
Just tweak the income / image proportions on a player's contract – to generate the required 'netto' amount to obtain the player's signature.
A club could acquire a player which it wouldn't normally be able to afford…?!
And the dumb question: do SPL players, (and not just those on big money in Glasgow), typically receive this type of 'tax efficient' arrangement?
From experience, we know of at least one SPL club which would find this tax ruse quite appealing…?
On the ‘Image Rights’ matter, it’s worth having a look at some of the relevant pages in the HMRC manual :
for example, this suggestion about what football clubs as ’employer’ should do in the matter of record keeping of any contract with an Image Rights Company [set up by a player, or by a player who has a stake in it]
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim00739,
“Employment income: general: payments for “image rights”: examples of issues to consider
Commerciality should be at the heart of an agreement between an employer and a company established by an employee for the exploitation of image rights. Without being prescriptive, HMRC expects this to be demonstrable.
The employer may consider keeping records covering:
consideration given by the Board of Directors to the active use of image rights as a benefit to the commercial activities of the employer, whether to seek new agreements, reviews of the outcome of existing agreements, and the possibilities for increased value additional to rights existing under the employment contract
a business plan for promotional activities involving the exploitation of image rights and the outcome of reviews of performance against that plan, including details of actions taken if the employer is not realising a commercial return from an image rights agreement
negotiation of the terms of each image rights agreement to demonstrate consideration on an individual basis and to reflect any differences between the exploitation of image rights within and outside the UK
details of independent advice received regarding the valuation of the image rights, or internal analysis of value based on previous experience
due diligence regarding the image rights company and any advice provided to the employee regarding the establishment of an image rights company
records of activities performed and any subsequent discussions about the performance of services under the image rights agreement and actions taken…”
From what I’ve read in the ‘manual ‘ I would guess that HMRC will be looking at the ‘contracts’ between ‘Image Rights Company’ and whether there is any evidence that the ‘player’ actually did anything in the way of meeting the terms of the contract, and evidence of commercial evaluation by the club of the effectiveness of the contract, by way of increased sales, higher club profile etc etc.
I daresay that HMRC will be looking for a suitable case (like the RFC of 1872 EBT tax dodge case) to take all the way to the UK Supreme Court, so that the bad guys can be nailed.
As , for other reasons, Lille has been nailed.
[curiously, and in the passing, I note that apparently there is no concept in English law of ‘image rights’.
“… As it was agreed that in England there is no property in a person’s image we do not find the expression “image rights agreement” as being sufficiently descriptive of the contents of the agreements in issue in this appeal..”
see https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim00734 for that observation ]
Maybe Scots law is different? Mind you, HMRC operates on the basis of UK-wide tax legislation (apart from the Scottish Government’s limited powers to set a different income tax rate)
And it’s unthinkable that any Scottish club would dream of trying to work a tax dodge that might lead to its demise in ten years time or so!
What fun, in times of limited access to other sources of fun! Will there be any Scottish cases , with First Tier and Upper Tier tax tribunals, and appeals to the Court of Session, with people like the wonderful Dr Heidi Poon, and Mr Ghosh, QC?
Happy days indeed, when the arch-cheat’s cheating was exposed.
Bolingoli….. A clear sacking offence.
Corrupt official 10th August 2020 at 22:56
Bolingoli….. A clear sacking offence.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The government should just say to the SFA and SPFL that there will be no football for the next two weeks, then tell them to use those two weeks to get the message over to the imbeciles in Scottish football that the whole shebang will be shutdown if they don't adhere to the government directives.
Corrupt official 10th August 2020 at 22:56
'..Bolingoli….. A clear sacking offence.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Well, I wasn't at the game, caller, just listened to the radio commentary.
On the basis of that, there was no way from the off that there was any desire on the part of the Celtic team as a whole to win the game.
That might have been down to any of many acceptable reasons.
But, God forgive me, I was reminded of the old 'joke': Why is a toley tapered? To prevent the cheeks of your a.se shutting with a bang!
The level of my distrust in anything to do with Scottish Football is quite high, the more I see things not as being a supporter of a sport, but as being an exploitable mug duped and milked by fecking cynical businessmen who would not recognise a moral principle if it beat their fecking head in!
Honest to God!
That it should come to this!
adam812 9th August 2020 at 12:13
Could I respectively suggest that people try their best, and I know it’s not always possible, to stick to the facts.
I know that the nature of conspiracy theories is such that for many the facts prove nothing and just add to their sense of injustice to the extent that some reasonable people will probably claim that one club chairman not only controls Scottish football but also Judges and Sheriffs on the Sfa arbitration list!
adam812 9th August 2020 at 12:35
I know I have just suggested sticking with the facts but think about this conspiracy theory.
If a Government had a problem it wished to move off the front page what better than a group of footballers breaching social distancing rules?
===============================
Thank’s for the comedy !
Seems as though Celtic PLC are in on the conspiracy theory. According to Neil Lennon, the club are conducting an investigation into events around the party held at the Griffiths residence.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/leigh-griffiths-facing-celtic-investigation-22494036
Now Bolingoli will be the subject of what appears to be an open and shut case investigation. At this stage, a consistent zero tolerance approach is required in dealing with players/others who are found to show flagrant disregard to the new guidelines/rules.
The Simon Ferry podcasts have generally been entertaining and insightful as to players attitudes. If only to help confirm what many have already thought about them. The general observation I’d make, is that conforming with the strict anti-COVID rules for an extended period will prove to be very difficult. A parrallel to footballers in Scotland following the lifestyle of a professional athlete, with NO lapses. In other words, it ain’t happening and it’ll be about not getting caught.
Reasonablechap
All the great conspiracies have to be very complex so of course a new stooge was needed to take the press attention away from the John Swinney announcement today ?
Of course the truth is that the eminent QC who once described some footballers as being, in non PC terms, "as thick as mince" is being shown to be accurate in his assessment!
The Hampden blazers have consistently shown over the years that they can quite happily be incompetent / corrupt, display zero leadership – and steadfastly refuse to learn from past mistakes.
They can get away with that behaviour within the confines of the bubble that is Scottish football – but problems can arise when the blazers have to deal with those outside their bubble.
Is any Bampot surprised at all at the latest shambles WRT observing protocols?
The clubs couldn’t comply with testing, the players can’t comply with social distancing, quarantine, etc.
And hell mend Hampden, as their lobbying of the SG to allow supporters back into stadiums ASAP will now be dropped to the very bottom of the pecking order – and rightly so, IMO.
Payback for the continued absence of effective leadership at both the SFA and SPFL.
JC "Why is a toley tapered"
Just realised John, that after 50 odd years on the planet that's the first time i've ever seen the word "toley" written down
……..I must say it looks strange.
HS
Higgy's Shoes 11th August 2020 at 10:04
'.…..I must say it looks strange..
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I've never seen it written down either, Higgy's Shoes , so it's anybody's guess as to the 'correct' spelling!
There's bound to be someone on the blog who can give us its etymology ( but the moderators might not wish to set off runs of lavatory jakes!)
I thought it was only the SMSM which wrote sh!te…
[Apologies in advance.]
Higgy's Shoes 11th August 2020 at 10:04
Mine too
Not questioning the spelling JC.
Seeing it written for the first time, it just looks a bit weird.
Big Pink
Very droll!
HS
JC, HS, & BP.
https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/sndns3884
With regards Bolingoli if the stories are true that is totally unacceptable.
It's bad enough that players are seeing fit to breach the rules in the UK. The reports are saying that he went to Spain, didn't inform the club, then played without going through the quarantine period.
Can I just say though that the BBC report has the apostrophe in the wrong place.
"Mr Yousaf said the player's … " should be "Mr Yousaf said the players' … ".
That's just sloppy grammar.
Corrupt official 11th August 2020 at 11:52
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Corrupt Official, that was quick!
John Clark 11th August 2020 at 12:17 Corrupt official 11th August 2020 at 11:52 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Corrupt Official, that was quick!laugh
====================
Quicker it seems than Celtic can announce Bolingoli will never wear the hoops again. And while we're at it, they should also accept the fact that we fielded an ineligible player.
I'm not sure of any legal ramifications, whether breaking quarantine rules is a law, or recommendation, or what?….. But the book should be thrown at him, only after it is used to skelp him about the heid.
Bolingoli/Celtic development means Scottish football receives “yellow card” from First Minister.
Next would be a “red card” and a halt to Scottish football for the time being.
She doesn’t expect to see Aberdeen or Celtic play in the coming week.
What about the CL qualifier scheduled for the 18th ? #forfeit
Bolingoli can't defend himself against the tsunami of opprobrium coming his way.
But he can't defend, full stop.
Should have been left back in Spain!
Stoopid boy.
Does Bolingoli have a language problem understanding briefings from the club ?
Does Griffiths have a comprehension problem when it comes to understanding briefings from the club ?
Do Celtic need interpreters and crayons when it comes to communications with players ?
Have Celtic PLC done all that they could to effectively communicate with players on COVID related guidelines/rules ?
Peter has to get his own house in order before he next decides to put public pressure on the Scottish Government. At a time when Scottish football faces an existential threat, his bonus may be reduced if the game is closed down because of the actions of Celtic players.
Corrupt official 11th August 2020 at 12:35
Quicker it seems than Celtic can announce Bolingoli will never wear the hoops again. And while we’re at it, they should also accept the fact that we fielded an ineligible player.
……………..
Imperfectly quarantined. Sandy Bryson.
reasonablechap 11th August 2020 at 13:18
…………….
Maybe if the SFA had not just sent out a letter after the first rule breach by a scottish club, more players and clubs would have taken more notice.
Cluster One 11th August 2020 at 13:30
Bolingoli did what he did without the knowledge of the club. I assume the same is true of the Aberdeen players, it is unlikely they contacted club officials and asked if it was ok for them all to go for a meal and a few pints together,
The SFA / SPFL should have acted immediately against the clubs who breached the rules. Those breaches and the lack of real action against them didn't send out a particularly helpful message in my opinion.
Corrupt Official et al
I prefer this one .
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Toely
Homunculus 11th August 2020 at 13:48
The SFA / SPFL should have acted immediately against the clubs who breached the rules. Those breaches and the lack of real action against them didn’t send out a particularly helpful message in my opinion.
…………..
Agreed.
….
Wednesday 12 August
Aberdeen v Hamilton Academical
St Mirren v Celtic
Saturday 15 August
Aberdeen v Celtic
All postponed
Now that same SPFL and SFA have a fixture pile up because of their inaction in the first instance.
Coronavirus Joint Response Group Update – 11 August
“The JRG members were astounded to learn of the recklessness demonstrated by Boli Bolingoli-Mbombo in his breach of government public health guidance and football protocols. We echo the sentiments of Celtic FC in their condemnatory statement and commend the club’s swiftness in opening a disciplinary investigation.
Rod Petrie
Full statement @
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/coronavirus-joint-response-group-update-11-august/?rid=13929
What are the SFA/SPFL doing about it in terms of investigations ?
I guess Peter will just tell his friends how the internal investigation goes.
Just as he will have been ok with the paragraph pasted above.
===============&&&
When exactly did anyone at Celtic know Bolingoli had taken a mini break in Spain ?
Did the club not inquire about players plans for a couple of days off / give them instructions on what NOT to do ?
Cluster One 11th August 2020 at 14:25
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When is a punishment not a punishment? ……… When the football authorities fail to take appropriate measures.
Aberdeen would have been without a minimum of 8 first team players for three games had they gone ahead as scheduled. They will now be able to play those games at a later date, but at full strength.
For all clubs affected, some of these games may have to be played later in the season, perhaps after fans are permitted back in the statdiums, thus increasing the home clubs' revenue.
IMO both clubs should have suffered points penalties, e.g. 2 points. That more than anything would have served to discourage players from breaking the protocols. Clubs cannot absolve themselves from the actions of their employees, as they have a duty of care to all their employees to ensure that everyone is aware of the restrictions that are imposed on them following the return to competitive ganes. There have been enough warnings.
As for the lack of leadership by the SFA and SPFL on the subject of disciplinary action for breaches of the protocols, their silence is palpable, but unsurprising.
Neil Lennon quote from a Daily Record article on the club investigation into Griffiths.
Lennon reckons it’s not a huge deal and, when asked if Griffiths’ career Celtic was under threat because of it, he said: “No.
“The club are conducting an investigation. I’m not convinced it’s a big issue, so, hopefully, it will be resolved in a couple of days.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/leigh-griffiths-facing-celtic-investigation-22494036
IMO it shows the First team manager disregarding the seriousness of the issue and/or knowing the result of an internal investigation before it’s finished.
I’l repeat my question from an earlier post…
Have Celtic PLC done all that they could to effectively communicate with players on COVID related guidelines/rules ?
===============&&&
Players are getting thrown under a bus (Bolingoli and Aberdeen Eight) and to whatever degree, ok…BUT are the clubs going to take more responsibility / be held accountable ?
We’ve heard all the jokes about the lack of player gumption (off the pitch). Have clubs made absolutely clear in underlined and repeated crayon what they have to do and NOT DO ?
Celtic's statement earlier today was a strong one but, other than throwing Bolingoli under a bus, it is undermined by previous comments by Peter Lawwell about Scottish football having an "exemplary" approach to the return to action.
Here is an article and extracted quotes by Peter Lawwell from mid July.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11787/12030858/celtic-ceo-peter-lawwell-wants-scotland-to-be-involved-in-fans-pilot-scheme
At the height of lockdown we saw some nurses not return home for 10 weeks to avoid passing covid to their families.
Likewise, a fair few care home workers remained on-site to reduce risks to their elderly patients.
Grossly underpaid workers who made their own decisions to safeguard their families, patients and others.
WRT to the SPL specifically, it would seem that the ‘best’ chance of avoiding a SG imposed shutdown is for each club to keep their players in one place, where they can see them.
Like an extended, overseas preseason training camp: keep the players in a hotel or university campus or whatever. It won’t be foolproof but it would clearly indicate to the SG that the SPL is doing its best to manage risks.
All it might take is for another few daft players to risk possibly the full completion of the league?
Something radical is needed to ensure fixtures can be completed this season.
The SPFL management – and the SFA – have to come up with a solution to protect the domestic competitions.
reasonablechap 11th August 2020 at 14:35
What are the SFA/SPFL doing about it in terms of investigations ?
…………..
easyJambo 11th August 2020 at 14:45
As for the lack of leadership by the SFA and SPFL on the subject of disciplinary action for breaches of the protocols, their silence is palpable, but unsurprising.
………………..
A strong worded letter from the SPFL and the SFA should do the trick.
Just heard on Radio Scotland that there has been an SFA independent investigation via an internal arbitration process.
Held in secret of course and proper legal too by one of the self declared SFA Laws that aren’t really legal but fair play to our administrators for taking the initiative and saving the season.
Fear not Scottish clubs One and all.
The conclusion on this occasion was that Sandy Bryson as first expert witness declared the Celtic player in question was simply imperfectly quarantined and therefore innocent as per precedent.
Move along Scottish Government.
Nothing to see here.
We have our own laws and Sandy on standby.
Are all the Celtic followers, who were calling for Aberdeen to forfeit the points for the game against St Johnstone last weekend, now seeking a similar sanction against Celtic, or are they now content with the precedent that was set last week?
It's a tad ironic that the only sanction for breaching the Covid protocols is a wee cough, sorry a week off.
I think we should be concerned that a player who makes a genuine error of judgement may be scared to own up to it in case he becomes the person who causes Scottish football to be halted. Prior to Covid-19 the person who admitted guilt would normally get a lesser sentence but it's not like that now.
Like the NBA are doing at Disneyworld, albeit they have all the teams in one 'bubble'. It would be expensive but if the teams can't trust the players, or the players are too thick to do the right thing, then maybe it is something some of the larger teams could look at.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_NBA_Bubble
I have to agree with you EJ, and Celtic should be forfeiting to St M, (but not Aberdeen). I suggested the same for St J v Dons.
Postponement is not a punishment, but a consequence. Although its clear Bolingoli went rogue, he still represented Celtic.
Lennie said as recently as last week, (after the Aberdeen example) that for the players, it had to be training ground or match, home, sleep, repeat. I dont think instruction comes much clearer.
Cluster…(13:27). C'mon bud, we're better than resorting to a Brysonism.
The SPFL is behind the curve, as per…
IF the clubs – and supporters – were clear about tough rules BEFORE the season kicked off,
such as 3 points forfeited by any club which breaches the agreed protocols with the SG – and which impacted the fixture schedule,
then it is arguable that neither Aberdeen nor Celtic would be dealing with these incidents in the first place, IMO.
IMO, both clubs should have forfeited the 3 points for unplayed matches.
But, this stems from the inaction at Hampden a couple if weeks ago – following clubs "misunderstanding protocols".
Doesn't seem like all the SPL clubs were taking this seriously: now the players are taking the p!ss.
In a really perverse manner, if the SG is forced to 'cancel' the league… it just must force change and improvement at Hampden!
Every cloud, etc…
Just to recap.
In relation to Covid there is Scot Gov GUIDANCE. For some specific issues this will be backed up by laws.
There are the agreed PROTOCOLS to allow professional football to return.
There are SPFL RULES, that I believe simply state that games postponed by order of the Board are rescheduled.
Now clubs may punish players with fines and even sacking. The football authorities may even stretch themselves to bring charges of bringing the game into disrepute. However, currently, they have no power to deduct points, award games etc for these Covid related matters.
Cant see why folks are getting their knickers in a twist or are surprised.
It's the same nutters who were in charge at the end of last season- Scottish Football has the governance it deserves.
StevieBC 11th August 2020 at 19:00
The SPFL is behind the curve, as per…
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
The Joint Response Group failed at the first hurdle by taking no action against the first club that played any kind of match without knowing the results of Covid-19 tests.
Who is on the JRG? Petrie, Doncaster , Maxwell and a doctor.
Two of the most deeply complicit chaps in the construction of the Big lie, and a useless weakling of an SFA CEO: as for the doctor, what chance has he against those three in their support for the TRFC board?
The failure to discipline TRFC by making light of a rogue decision made not by idiots of football players but by managers who knew the score marks the JRG as being not fit for purpose.
(Did Nicola and the Professor have anything to say at the time?)
I see no difference in the failure of CelticFC to control their player(s) and that of AberdeenFC. Both clubs are ultimately responsible for their employees and both should have forfeited points for any and all matches they were not permitted to fulfill. The completely inadequate response of the JRG to the initial compliance failure by TRFC has led to this fiasco and now any serious sanctions by the footballing authorities will be called out as unprecedented and £2.5K is all it will cost to overturn in court.
wottpi @ 19.43
There are the agreed PROTOCOLS to allow professional football to return.
=======================================
Indeed. I am not sure what these are and whether they relate just to clubs (anent testing etc) or whether they include restrictions on player (or other staff ) activities? Club staff are clearly covered by the same rules/laws/recommendations as the general public are but if these are transgressed are clubs responsible? Have they been robust enough it applying the government policy? I may be wrong but I wonder how many players of any club were, for example, not out in groups of 3+ at the weekend? Does not make it ok I know. My view is likely influenced by my take on the whole Covid thing which is not an appropriate topic for this forum!!
easyJambo 11th August 2020 at 18:38
Are all the Celtic followers, who were calling for Aberdeen to forfeit the points for the game against St Johnstone last weekend, now seeking a similar sanction against Celtic, or are they now content with the precedent that was set last week?
======================================================
This is what I said earlier and I still think the same.
“It should have been play the game or Aberdeen forfeiting, however we now have a precedent. The wrong one as far as I am concerned. ”
The game should go ahead, failing that Celtic should forfeit the points, they can’t do that now.
Clearly the government should declare the season over with Hibs as champions!
easyJambo 11th August 2020 at 18:38
Are all the Celtic followers, who were calling for Aberdeen to forfeit the points for the game against St Johnstone last weekend, now seeking a similar sanction against Celtic, or are they now content with the precedent that was set last week?
…………….
If Aberdeen were punished with forfeiting points by the SPFL i would have no complaint if celtic had to forfeit points also, that would be a similar sanction. But Aberdeen did not forfeit points so why should celtic. Celtic don’t have a 5 way agreement that gives them rules different from any other club.
Cluster One 11th August 2020 at 23:27
If Aberdeen were punished with forfeiting points by the SPFL i would have no complaint if celtic had to forfeit points also, that would be a similar sanction. But Aberdeen did not forfeit points so why should celtic. Celtic don’t have a 5 way agreement that gives them rules different from any other club.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That's all well and good, but the problem I see going forward is what happens to the next miscreant, if the the SPFL creates a code of conduct (with a set of sanctions) and the club involved is not Aberdeen or Celtic. Would it be fair if Motherwell or Kilmarnock had to face a points penalty for similar breaches of protocol, while other clubs had previously escaped similar sanctions?
It wasn't rocket science for the SPFL to anticipate that there would be issues with positive tests or breaches of the agreed protocols, but it is apparent that they have failed to plan for the inevitable, by sticking to their mantra of making the rules up as they go along.
We are left with a situation of no-one knowing how any future incident will be handled. I think that the SG has allowed the football authorities a bit too much slack. I fear that the failure of the SFA and SPFL to put robust procedures in place to deal with such incidents will result in more draconian measures being imposed on football generally. That in turn will impact of the prospects of the resumption of football in the lower divisions and at grass roots levels.
From the editorial in today's 'The Scotsman' :
" The stupidity of a handful of young men, however, is no reason to bring the shutters crashing down on our national sport just as it stutters back to life"
__
I agree.
But perhaps the failure of the JRG right from the off to deal with the first football offenders against Covid-19 protocols (TRFC) may well be reason enough to do so. That failure sent a very clear signal that the covid-testing regime was not taken anywhere near as seriously by th Board and manager of TRFC as it ought to have been. And nothing was done about it.
As others have remarked, the JRG/the SFA Board/the SPFL Board have lost any moral authority to discipline any other club that breaches the protocols.
But then, Scottish Football governance lost all such moral authority it had when it allowed the Big Lie and continues to foster and protect it.
Who can seriously support a sport based on untruth?
Uncertainty: how long will restrictions last for, will they be eased, will they be tightened, will the SG shutdown domestic football during this season…?
Certainty: the longer the season progresses – with restrictions in place – other players will be caught flouting the rules, IMO.
Worst case: the SG is forced to step in yet again.
To send out the right signals now – and try to add some certainty and/or flexibility – mibbees the SPFL & SFA should reduce the fixture list further this season?
This could provide some gaps during, or at the end of the season to stage any postponed games resulting from further breaches AND/OR adverse weather.
As it stands right now: if another group of SPL players was reported as having flouted the restrictions – would any 'non-football' person be bothered if the SG simply shut down the whole game from next week? Some/many football supporters might also agree with such an SG decision.
The SPFL & SFA blazers can't just keep snoozing in the Hampden bunker: they have to be seen to be doing something tangible, to reassure the SG and to – attempt to – minimise possible further sanctions for future player breaches, IMO.
easyJambo 12th August 2020 at 00:23
Would it be fair if Motherwell or Kilmarnock had to face a points penalty for similar breaches of protocol, while other clubs had previously escaped similar sanctions?
……………
No it would not be fair. And for maybe a fine of £2500 any club punished more than any other club can take the SPFL to court, if they believe they are being hard done by.
……………….
It wasn’t rocket science for the SPFL to anticipate that there would be issues with positive tests or breaches of the agreed protocols, but it is apparent that they have failed to plan for the inevitable, by sticking to their mantra of making the rules up as they go along.
…
All about the money. It is always about the money first. If it is making the rules up as they go along.They will. Money first is what we must have learned about the scottish football governing bodies by now.
Does anybody know;
what would happen if the SG had shown Scottish football a straight red card instead the other day?
Where would that leave those supporters who had paid high prices for a TV/season ticket?
Would they get a refund or is there small print which e.g. negates a refund in certain scenarios?
Thought the site was broken. Everybody finally scunnered??
2 Ns and 1 R in scunnered, BP.
As a Buddie, I've had years of experience in the art.
Fishnish
Sorted ?
Big Pink 13th August 2020 at 07:26
fishnish 13th August 2020 at 09:21
""""""""""""""""""""""""
What is this new word 'scunnered'?
Where I'm from , the depth and intensity of the disgust, revulsion, odium, and anger I feel when , say, expressions or words like 'the 5-Way Agreement' or 'SDM' or JRG , or, more broadly 'SFA' and 'SPFL' are mentioned ,can only be conveyed by the word '"scunnert" said with absolute contempt, and followed by (metaphorically, of course) a hawked up spit from the depth of the lungs!
IN 2012 the integrity of the Scottish Football industry was sabotaged first by the relentless cheating of RFC of 1872, and then by the unbelievably ridiculous deceit of the 'governance' bodies.
TRFC continues that deceit, and 'governance' continues to support the deceit.
'Scunnert' needs to be replaced by a much stronger word.
John C
We could start a competition to find one ?
Something suitably graphic or onomatopoeic would be a good starting point.
I think that Scottish football governance is failing because covid is not susceptable to funny handshakes or gerrymandered " solutions ". It is beyond their ken to deal with something that can't be bullied or coerced .
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/coronavirus-joint-response-group-update-13-august/?rid=13929
So the fallout from the Aberdeen and Celtic players protocol violations is that “Players” can now be sanctioned (not clubs?).
Also that non Premiership clubs are banned from training until 24 August at the earliest.
Given that Hearts have been training for the last 10 days or so, while fully adopting the testing protocols, it seems that they are being punished for the actions of other clubs’ players. Will Hearts be refunded the costs of the testing that they have undergone over the last couple of weeks.
What a shambles of an organisation.
Further to my previous post:
Additional guidance notes now on SFA statement…
Additional guidance notes
1. Glasgow City Women’s FC can continue to train in preparation for their UEFA Women’s Champions League tie against Wolfsburg on 21 August and will be visited to audit and verify compliance.
2. Heart of Midlothian FC has been informed of the need to pause their current training programme until at least 24 August.
3. Adult (over-18) recreational football will not be permitted to participate in any form of organised training.
4. Youth (under-18) football can continue in line with current Scottish Government guidance."
As I said before …… "SHAMBLES"
easyJambo 13th August 2020 at 17:19
……………
Given that Hearts have been training for the last 10 days or so, while fully adopting the testing protocols, it seems that they are being punished for the actions of other clubs’ players. Will Hearts be refunded the costs of the testing that they have undergone over the last couple of weeks.
What a shambles of an organisation.
………………
Rangers, Motherwell and Hibernian have all been asked to detail their coronavirus testing protocols after pre-season games were cancelled and delayed this week.( and even a game played when 9 players test results were not known)
The Scottish Football Association and Scottish Professional Football League’s Joint Response Group (JRG) have written to the three Scottish Premiership clubs seeking clarification on the procedures used to keep track on the spread of the virus.
It comes after St Mirren were forced into lockdown after seven members of the Paisley club’s backroom staff were confirmed to have contracted coronavirus.
As a result, Scottish Premiership clubs have been ordered to reintroduce twice-weekly testing for the first time since July 8.
………………
it seems that they are being punished for the actions of other clubs’ players. Will Hearts be refunded the costs of the testing .
…
Every club was punished from the very start with the cost of twice weekly testing instead of the cost of tests only once a week.
Cluster One 13th August 2020 at 18:11
Every club was punished from the very start with the cost of twice weekly testing instead of the cost of tests only once a week.
==============================
IMO that’s a pretty weak defence for today’s decision.
Scottish Premiership clubs sought permission to resume playing in advance of other sports and businesses, for their own reasons, e.g. participation in UEFA competitions and distribution of TV money. They went into that arrangement with open eyes to the conditions of doing so. That being adherence to the testing and other protocols, including costs.
Hearts sought and were given permission to resume training from 1st August, as long as they adhered to the same protocols as Premiership clubs. They incurred costs for wages (off furlough) for players and staff.
Players from Premiership clubs have caused the latest issues, so the response of the JRG is to stop adult football everywhere, except the Premiership, WTF.
Hearts have been unfairly treated in this situation. It is clear the the JRG considered Hearts position as they are specifically mentioned, as are Glasgow City women’s side, but they are allowed to play.
A predictable statement from Hearts
https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/club-statement-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9
Dearie me bring back the thumbs up/down
At least some posters who are posting utter bollocks would realise the feelings in sfm land
easyJambo 13th August 2020 at 18:27
IMO that’s a pretty weak defence for today’s decision.
…………….
It was not ment to be a defence.
….
That being adherence to the testing and other protocols, including costs.
…
And because of the actions of some clubs at the start of this not following protocol other clubs and players seen no real punishment for not following protocol, and the floodgates opened.
Hearts have been unfairly treated in this situation.as to other clubs because of the inaction of the football goverment bodies to take action when clubs did not follow protocol at the start
Cluster One 13th August 2020 at 22:35
And because of the actions of some clubs at the start of this not following protocol other clubs and players seen no real punishment for not following protocol, and the floodgates opened.
Hearts have been unfairly treated in this situation.as to other clubs because of the inaction of the football goverment bodies to take action when clubs did not follow protocol at the start
++++++++++++++++++
I can't disagree with that.
The bottom line is that the JRG has chosen a path that has a disproportionate impact on a single club, when they have been adhering rigourously to the protocols (as far we know).
easyJambo 13th August 2020 at 20:54
'We have done nothing wrong and yet, once again, we are being disproportionately disadvantaged by a decision which has been described as “the fairest”'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I am coming late to the blog this evening ( I've spent several hours on 'Scotlandspeople' trying to do a 'family tree' for Mrs C's brother) and have just tuned in afore I go to my kip.
But no reasonable person could deny the essential truth of the HoM statement.
And your own use of the word 'shambles' in relation to football governance at this time of real crisis is easily justified.
I have yet to see any valid reason why Kilmarnock’s game was allowed to go ahead on Wednesday night. Bolingoli was in the building and will have been in close proximity to Kilmarnock staff. Of course, it is perfectly feasible that Sturgeon has no public health concerns and just decided she wanted to punish Aberdeen and Celtic (and their opponents by extension). Yet there appeared to be no question of Aberdeen’s game not going ahead had the Bolingoli incident not been exposed.
It might not be a popular view on here but I don’t do the ‘Saint Nicola’ thing, and I do not believe her or her Government have handled this matter properly. In fact, I am of the view her Government have a real dislike of Scottish football. The only thing I can ever recall them saying in support of it was a demand for Rangers in 2012 to be let off with illegal non tax payment. I think any football fan who has Sturgeon on a pedestal over current matters would do well to remember that. It would also have been helpful if they had commented on the earlier clear breaches where some clubs (not players) did not stick to testing rules and played games anyway. It all looks rather arbitrary at the moment, but then again it wouldn’t be Scotland if that wasn’t the case! Throw in the obvious bias of the media in what they choose to highlight and question and it becomes quite dirty all round.
Sturgeon is it? I was just getting used to it being Doncaster. For a wee while I did think it could be Lawell but as the campaign against Hearts (and PT presumably) now includes Aberdeen and Celtic it seems unlikely. Unless it's a bluff of course?
I'll have a go at a theory. Sturgeon is worried that the indy vote might not hold up and, having an unnatural disinterest on who might win the SPL, creates a sh*tstorm that she will be seen to fix. She enrolls Lawell with sweet talk on how StevieG is poised to win the league with his audacious signings and the need to set in motion a scheme to close the league as soon as Celtic have a lead. Lawell gets Hayes up to Pittodrie and he talks 7 of the gullible diddies into a team booze up to get the ball rolling. Doncaster, having briefed Sturgeon on what the SPL is etc, spills the beans to Dave King who gifts Boli a return ticket to Spain and then releases the story. Sturgeon is now in a bit of a quandary and has no option but to bring Celtic onto the naughty step. More to come. Worth a few seasons on Netflix I reckon.
If you think that is unbelievable there is the extraordinary alternative theory that we are in a global pandemic. Whole countries have shut down, re opened and shutdown again. Whole industries, competitions and even the Olympics have been cancelled. Last week, with a few hours notice, my home town was partially locked down, my staycation (motorhome) cancelled. My two hip ops cancelled a week prior to appointment date in March. I'm going from global to personal, the pandemic has affected everything in between. Do we really think anyone outside our wee bubble is targeting fitba, the SPFL or specific teams?
During lockdown and since unlocking I have been impressed on a daily basis by the clarity of delivery of information from the Scottish Government and its advisors. Difficult messages have been presented in an understandable manner and the willingness to admit to making mistakes is to be admired.
I don't believe that it is possible, however, to say that mistakes are always admitted or that all decisions are made without considering the political consequences.
The exams fiasco seems to me to be a great example where admitting a huge mistake and correcting it brings a largely positive reaction from the public and the media.
The fact that they allowed the SQA to use an algorithm to downgrade results is being corrected but they will not change the results of the kids, with rich parents, attending high achieving schools who had their grades upped.
They did this because on the basis of historical results the computer says the teachers underestimated their results. No apology for that unbelievable decision although I expect you wouldn't want to upset rich parents who might consider court action!
I would suggest that it is likely that political thinking comes into a lot of the decisions relating to football not just by the Government but also by the governing bodies. Whatever decisions they take what is guaranteed is that not everyone will be happy. A player heading to Spain makes it easy for the politicians though!
One final thought. If the SPFL used the SQA algorithm to decide this year's league placings taking historical standings from the last 10 years into account just imagine the outcry. Maybe it would be karma though!
ernie 14th August 2020 at 10:07
Well said Ernie and served up in the best SFM fashion with a bit of humour.
Saved me from penning a long piece trying to justify why UTH’s post is one of the biggest pieces of illogical nonsense (or as some would say ‘conjecture’) I’ve seen on the site for a long time.
All governments of all persuasions across the UK currently have more to worry about than football. It is the football authorities, clubs and players who have a moral duty to do their best to manage themselves in a responsible manner given the concessions given to them to restart. Simples!! Daft conspiracy theories help no-one.
While I am on, I note the decision to stop Hearts from continuing with their planned and agreed training regime. Like a cowardly ‘Souness/McCluskey kick from behind’ this time the ‘footballing authorities’ have their hands out by his sides and are trying to put the blame of the straight taking Prof Jason Leitch.
What lily-livered cowards we have running our game.
Ernie 20th August 2020 @ 10:07
+++++++++++
So I will ask again why Kilmarnock were allowed to play the other night? It would have been unfair without a doubt, but if public health was the only concern then so be it. It's to punish Aberdeen and Celtic.
I think it's naive to think Sturgeon is not flexing her muscles, and with Aberdeen and Celtic being the two clubs it's unlikely there would be too much outcry. Maybe both should stop paying their tax to elicit some sympathy.
Purely for balance I hope another poster will be along soon to offer us the other cheek of the conspiratorial derrière….
incredibleadamspark
I look forward someone doing just that.
On twitter there are so many people who abuse you for comments made just because they seem to think the politicians they support don't ever make decisions that are political but on SFM it has generally been different.
I have been thinking for a while whether or not I wish to continue being part of the noble cause of the SFM.
Over the summer many people had different opinions but were normally treated with respect but not by everyone. Some people showed intransigence and some were just blinkered.
Thumbs up and down were removed for an understandable reason but they allowed people to express opinions, albeit not always easily, about others posts
A few on here seem to feel that they now can be blunt to the point of rudeness – not incredibleadamspark I should stress – but it spoils it for me.
I worked with many wonderful people to support them in times of need and distress but I also with abusive people, some who threatened to kill me, some who committed heinous crimes but I always tried to deal with them all professionally. This may leave me over sensitive but it is who I am and I struggle to cope with rudeness no matter who to.
Thank you all for some great reading.
Why are the Dons and Celtic not playing this week? Because they evidently (i.e.the evidence is actual) do not have the processes in place to comply with the specific requirements of the arrangement that enable their "elite" sport to continue. As we go forward I suspect they will be seen as having got off with it lightly.
I said, prior to a big team getting involved. that Aberdeen should have had the points forfeited to St J and that by not doing so the SPFL were creating a problem for the future. That has happened and it only took days. It will happen again. But a conspiracy?
Police lawyers have spent more than a week interviewing a detective who allegedly “manipulated” the legal system during an investigation at Rangers, a court has been told.
Andrew Smith, QC, told Lord Tyre during a procedural hearing at the Court of Session yesterday that lawyers acting for Police Scotland had spent 200 hours speaking to Detective Chief Inspector Jim Robertson.
Mr Smith is acting for David Grier, 58, a business restructuring expert who is suing Police Scotland for £2 million.
Mr Grier says that he was wrongly arrested during an investigation, led by Mr Robertson, into allegations of criminal behaviour during the sale of rangers in 2011.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lawyers-spend-200-hours-grilling-rangers-officer-b0h622vsn
Aug 12, 2020
…………….
Don’t know if the court guys would have been to this if every thing was normal as such.
…………………………..
Small comment if i may?
I always laugh when anything to do with this case it will be mentioned as something like, during the sale of rangers in 2011.
Everything pre 2012 and Craig whyte is mentioned as the sale of rangers.No company myth or anything else.
Anything after Feb 2012 and you will have ibrox fans and the media try and tell you it was the company that went bust.
How any ibrox fan or anyone in the media with half a brain don’t look at themselves and say What the feck am i doing, and who am i trying to kid, with the company went bust.
The only people they are trying to kid are themselves, and they must know how stupid they look.
WOTTPI @ 19:42
Mock me all you like. By allowing Kilmarnock to play on Wednesday was akin to the track and trace system identifying people who were in a pub and close to someone who failed to quarantine and then saying only some had to isolate. I don’t really care what anyone thinks about conspiracy theories or whatever. Kilmarnock were allowed to play so the whole thing is farcical in my view. It was political.
Kilmarnock players were either in the vicinity of someone who may have been exposed to the virus, and the officials, more so the 4th official who was right beside him for a length of time, or they were not. No ifs, no buts, no maybes. Their players and staff and the match officials should be isolating. The same as everybody in that pub who were there when the dons players were in having their player of the game awards ceremony, they’ve had to quarantine along with those other punters too. Why do Kilmarnock Fc, the match officials, especially the 4th official, and their staff get a bye? Why?
Cluster One 14th August 2020 at 12:35
Don’t know if the court guys would have been to this if every thing was normal as such.
=================================
Yes. It was one of the cases we were following. I hope that the courts are fully reopened by the time the case reaches the proof (trial) stage, as I would like to see DCI Roberson in the witness box explaining why he did what he did.
upthehoops 14th August 2020 at 13:06
POR CIERTO 14th August 2020 at 13:30
===============================
You both seem to miss the main difference in the circumstances of the Aberdeen and Celtic players.
Two of the Aberdeen players tested positive, so it was correct that those in their vicinity had to self isolate.
No Celtic player tested positive so there was no need for self isolation. It is simply an offence not to quarantine on return from Spain, for which I believe the player has been given a fixed penalty by the police, plus whatever the club/SFA/SPFL choose to do.
Contact tracing in Scotland only kicks in when someone has tested positive.
Aberdeen FC@AberdeenFC
Our internal investigation is now complete & has confirmed a breach of AFC COVID-19 protocols and government guidance. As a result, players have been severely reprimanded and fined heavily. The Club has chosen to donate these fines to NHS Grampian.
http://bit.ly/3kM2dxt
‘easyJambo 14th August 2020 at 13:40
…No Celtic player tested positive so there was no need for self isolation. It is simply an offence not to quarantine on return from Spain, for which I believe the player has been given a fixed penalty by the police, plus whatever the club/SFA/SPFL choose to do…’
################################
Why, then, did the the Nation’s Micro-Managing Mammy get involved? Isn’t failure to observe quarantine a matter for Police Scotland? Did she comment on a live police case? It’s possible to think that Bolingoli received his FPN because of the FM’s involvement, rather than the judgement of Police Scotland.
All the St.Mirren players were Covid19 clear. All the CFC players were too. Bolingoli wasn’t available for selection as he was self-isolating: yet the match was called off.
Ms. Sturgeon has little or no interest in sport. ‘Recommending’ postponements to the SFA/SPFL isn’t about football & its failings, it’s about optics & political grandstanding against an all-too-easy opponent.
adam1820
I really hope the sarcasm of my post didn’t make you think it was in any way critical of any of your comments. I agree with them 100%. I was responding to the same post that you were. Clearly not as eloquently as you so I really hope there isn’t a misunderstanding here.
There has been quite a bit of conspiracy theories recently regarding Peter Lawwell and I find them as tedious as ones coming from the others side.
Please do continue to post and I’ll dial down the sarcasm and try to be as informative as you have been.
incredibleadamspark
Sorry I tried to make it clear it wasn’t you and I’d like to stress the majority of contributers treat others with respect but just I struggle when it doesn’t happen whether it’s to me or someone else.
adam182
Agreed. We should all be respectful of others and that’s generally what happens on here. That does not stop us disagreeing agreeably when it comes to the fitba. I think we’re all looking for the same thing.
Jingso.Jimsie 14th August 2020 at 14:26
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The real irony for me is Sturgeon's comments about footballers thinking they are subject to different rules. It seems they are, but not in the way she means. I doubt she would stand there mouthing off about every MacDonalds closing down because one employee failed to observe the rules on quarantine. I doubt also she would threaten to close Holyrood if one of her MSP's did likewise.
While never losing sight of how irresponsible Bolingoli's actions were, the media's thirst for blood gave Sturgeon the opportunity to politically grandstand. It was also quite an eye opener just how many in the Scottish media seemed very keen for Celtic to be thrown out of Europe, with many bombarding UEFA in the apparent hope it would happen. Meanwhile Athletico Madrid were participating in the Champions League despite two of their squad having tested positive. Like most things in Scotland it seems to depend on what club is involved. As has been said earlier other clubs failed to adhere to testing rules but the media and Sturgeon were absolutely fine with that. Why?
Fairly predictable statement from AFC.
AFC Chairman, Dave Cormack, said: “These players made a huge mistake. They not only went against government guidance but also breached our own COVID-19 procedures, set out by the Club to all players and staff. Due to the privilege that has been afforded to professional footballers, and having witnessed the outrage and anger their actions provoked, they are in no doubt that they have let themselves and the Club down. They are truly sorry and have apologised unreservedly to the First Minster, health and footballing authorities, the fans, the Manager, the rest of the squad, our staff and board and the wider community.”
“As a result of our investigation, these players have been severely reprimanded and fined heavily. Contractually, the specifics must remain confidential between the Club and each player but, rest assured, the financial fines are in line with the severity of the consequences of their actions.
“The Club has chosen to donate these fines to NHS Grampian.
“We fully appreciate the outpouring of dismay and anger by those who have been impacted by this virus, by those who have worked selflessly to protect us and by our fans, who have, despite health and financial worries, supported the Club with their hard-earned cash during this period.
“Their actions were indefensible but the investigation has been completed, they have apologised, they have been punished by the Club, and are suffering the humiliation that goes with making a mistake in the public eye.
“The Club, like every employer, has a duty of care to its staff and we must also consider the wellbeing of these players, who continue to face an ongoing barrage of criticism and personal abuse from many quarters. They’ve been taught the harshest of lessons and have the chance to redeem themselves and help demonstrate that the Club is better and bigger than this regrettable episode.
“I can only hope that Dons fans and the Aberdeen community will remember the tremendously positive work the Club and Trust, including staff, volunteers and the players, have delivered during this pandemic, and help us all heal from this."
Jingso.Jimsie
Why, then, did the the Nation’s Micro-Managing Mammy get involved?
++++++++++++++
I don't think this is the right forum to express political views, but perhaps she felt that there were concerns about the level of compliance and education among those who are only permitted to work as a result of special arrangements.
That might be the reason that the JRG has acknowledged such a need and implemented sanctions and an education programme appropriate to the maintainance of the special status that football enjoys at this time.
easyJambo 14th August 2020 at 13:33
Yes. It was one of the cases we were following. I hope that the courts are fully reopened by the time the case reaches the proof (trial) stage, as I would like to see DCI Roberson in the witness box explaining why he did what he did.
………………
lOOKING FOWARD TO SEEING YOU GUYS IN COURT. IN A GOOD WAY;-)
Cluster One 14th August 2020 at 12:35
'Don’t know if the court guys would have been to this if every thing was normal as such.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I think I can safely say that there is not one aspect of
the sports and tax cheating by RFC of 1872 under SDM,
the sale of the cheating club to CW,
the subsequent asset-stripping Administration which resulted not in the saving of the club by payment of its debts but in its Liquidation and death as a participating cub in Scottish Football,
the admission of a brand new football club and the lie that was created that the new club was continuity RFC of 1872, its sporting record seamlessly surviving Liquidation while its huge debts remained unsettled,
the subsequent setting-up of a plc which went to the Market on the basis of a very questionable Prospectus that appears not to have been questioned at the time by the FCA
and the various criminal and civil court actions associated with all of the above,
that is not of absorbing interest to me
I miss the visits to Court. They can be illuminating and quite fun.
And I hope that in one way or another I shall soon be able to hear/see any further 'live' actions involving former Administrators, or Liquidators, or Police officers, Crown Agents, Lords Advocate, Advocate-Deputes and uncle Tom Cobley and all in any case bearing on the disgraceful 'saga'.
reasonablechap 14th August 2020 at 23:00
Bang on cue, reasonable chap!
I love it when any post of mine that reminds folk of the deep rottenness of the cheating RFC of 1872
and of the fact that it is in Liquidation
and the fact that TRFC are essentially a living sporting lie by claiming to be what they are in law and in sport and in common sense most certainly not!
immediately brings you and your alter egos into deflective mode!
You must know that all the deflection in the world cannot hide the Truth, try as you and the RIFC plc board and the TRFC board might.
TRFC is a living untruth, trying to make money on the back of a now dead club that was formed in my grandfather’ time.
Truth always prevails.
And I quote again that wonderful sotto voce remark of Galileo Galilei in relation to his difficulties with the authorities on the question of whether the earth is central and the sun moves round it :’ eppure si muove‘
i.e. you can say , and force me to say, that the earth does not move round the sun, but whatever you say, it does in fact move round the sun!
The SFA and the SPFL can lie with all their might, but TRFC is not RFC of 1872, because RFC of 1872 is there in front of their very eyes, alongside Third Lanark and Gretna in the grave of football Liquidation.
John Clark 14th August 2020 at 23:58
Bang on cue, reasonable chap!
I love it when any post of mine that reminds folk of the deep rottenness of the cheating RFC of 1872
===============&&
Hate to break it to you but seeing as you lke the truth, I gave up reading your predictable and repetitive posts a good while back.
A glance suffices, to note a couple of the customary words/numbers and I pass.
Pictures all over social media of the Rangers management team and coaching staff in a pub, failing to socially distance as they cosy up with fans for photos. The media are not interested. The problem in a nutshell. It all depends what club is involved.
Scotland – the most bigoted wee country in the world.
upthehoops 15th August 2020 at 08:25
Pictures all over social media of the Rangers management team and coaching staff in a pub, failing to socially distance as they cosy up with fans for photos. The media are not interested. The problem in a nutshell. It all depends what club is involved.
Scotland – the most bigoted wee country in the world.
==============================================
Also unconfirmed rumour from phil of an other spfl player also in spain recently on family business who may not have followed the correct protocol if true let us hope that in the interests of sporting integrity that the media will release this information as well but don't hold your breath.
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/08/13/the-pandemic-season/
Shug 15th August 2020 @ 08:41
++++++++++
You could provide the media with screenshots of flight bookings and they still wouldn't run with it. Also, imagine Neil Lennon was breaking social distancing rules and cosying up for photos with fans in pubs outwith his 'bubble'. Imagine also that after doing so Lennon then sat in front of the media and piously claimed everyone at his club stuck to the rules 100%. Imagine also that the First Minister had internet access and was able to see these breaches for herself, yet said nothing. What an absolutely f*cked up nation we live in.
No doubt the usual suspects will be out to tell me I am just paranoid, and that our saintly Government treat everyone equally. So I hope everyone keeps safe and well over the coming months. I'm out. I don't see anything here for me anymore. I wish you all well.
JC, you're very naughty!
Bear-baiting is illegal, (and too easy).
As long as Scottish football supports the continuation lie, the game will never learn – and will never "move on".
One deviant club, (pretending to be a much worse, dead club), is perennially holding back Scottish football.
Karma and/or hubris will get the club in the end though…
I’m hearing 8 game ban for the 8 Dons and Celtic also punished, they have to play Boli every game.
I like the odd puzzle and enjoy the occasional riddle so my morning was brightened when I read this :
” The correct thing that should have been done is that in these matches Aberdeen and Celtic should both have forfeited the game…And indeed the game between the two of them, Celtic v Aberdeen, should also be shown as having been played in the played column, with both handed a 0-3 defeat”
Has Leslie Deans’ very understandable emotional state upset the balance of his legal mind? or is it actually in the rules that a game that is deemed to have been played can be deemed to have been lost by both the teams?
(page 47, ‘ The Scotsman’ today., no author byline)
John Clark 15th August 2020 at 10:45
And indeed the game between the two of them, Celtic v Aberdeen, should also be shown as having been played in the played column, with both handed a 0-3 defeat”
………………..
That is a cracker
' That's all down to the compliance officer' says Maxwell.
I've just listened to the podcast of today's 'Sportsound'.
Honest to God! was there ever an organisation so ready to claim to have regard for 'judicial impartiality' as the lying SFA?
That the CEO of a 'governance' body which sanctions the most monstrous sporting lie in sporting history can even pretend that Scottish Football governance believes in 'judicial impartiality' is an insult to anyone of the most meagre intelligence!
The sheer feckin hypocrisy of it all is apparent.
Scottish Football?
As dirty an enterprise as anything that an Al Capone might have been interested in!
John Clark 16th August 2020 at 00:23
‘ That’s all down to the compliance officer’ says Maxwell.
…………………
the compliance officer will be busy just now with collecting the charges against the ibrox board and players for bringing the game into disrepute during the summer. Or is she still in shock reading the ibrox dozzier that will bring down scottish football?
As discussed it doesn't really matter regards Aberdeen v Celtic as the Board has postponed and rescheduled as per the existing rules.
However the Leslie Deans argument of both teams having to forfeit the game 3-0 is technically interesting.
It is almost always the case that if something has gone wrong it is one team that is the subject of wrong doing. I can't think of an example of two teams doing wrong at the same time.
So, let's say a game went ahead and both teams were found later to have played ineligible players. You would expect the same punishment to be dealt out to both.
Say the above scenario was a league game that ended in a draw. It would not be fair on the rest of the league that both teams gained a point and the result was left to stand just because the outcome was 'even' with both teams being guilty of the same offense.
A fine alone wouldn't resolve the unfairness to the rest of the league as the offending teams would still have gained a point that could be crucial come the end of the season.
One solution would be to replay the game. But is that not just giving the offenders a second chance? Another option would Deans' suggestion that both forfeit the match thus not gaining any points and being 'punished in terms of goal difference (0-3) in recognition of their offence.
Clearly his lawyerly view but perhaps not as daft as it first seems.
wottpi
I personally don’t think it is daft at all except for the notion that a club might be sanctioned for playing ineligible players?
It is an interesting debate though. The players involved have been involved in off-field activity which transgresses the law. So should their clubs be punished?
On the other hand, the SPFL have deemed that transgression worthy of postponement, so it does impact on other clubs.
I must confess that the cut and dried nature of my response to the Aberdeen situation gave way to a more nuanced approach when my own team became embroiled in it.
I suppose it comes down to whether or not we agree that the clubs should be culpable or not. On balance, I feel they should be, but as I say, I’m not as convinced as I was when Celtic weren’t in the middle of it?
The idea of punishing Aberdeen and Celtic for player transgressions regarding Covid is not just daft – it's preposterous claptrap!
If, say, a teacher breaks the guidelines, does the education authority get punished?
No – people have to see thorough this 'agenda driven' nonsensical suggestion – aimed primarily (though admittedly not exclusively) at harming Celtic's 10IAR efforts by those with allegiance to the liquidated outfit..
While I'm on, could anyone who feels Aberdeen and Celtic should be deducted points (whit?!) remind me where Sevco's recent flaunting of the law come in all of this ?
bect67 17th August 2020 at 09:52
“people have to see thorough this 'agenda driven' nonsensical suggestion”
_____________________________________________
Might I suggest there may be two ways of looking at this, the second of which involves an entirely different agenda, that 10IAR must be achieved at all costs, therefore Celtic must not suffer a points deduction?
When seen through tinted specs that are not of a green or red hue, Bolingoli and the eight Dons players broke rules which were specific to their employment as footballers whose clubs had obtained special dispensation to play during a pandemic – providing those rules were strictly adhered to. It matters not a jot whether they were on or off duty, the nine offenders broke rules which not only affected their own clubs, but others too, and could have had life or death consequences in a worst case scenario.
The argument that the club should not be held accountable for the actions of one rogue player/employee gives credence to the notion that Rangers FC shouldn’t be punished for the actions of individual rogues such as David Murray or Craig Whyte, for example.
While I totally agree we should be asking what happened to Sevco’s flouting of the law, unfortunately your comment smacks of whataboutery. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Finally, while I’m briefly here, I was sorry to read that UpTheHoops has decided to retire from posting on here, because I genuinely enjoyed his input. I mean no disrespect therefore when referring to his final post by saying that if everyone has it in for Celtic to the extent that UTH reported, then they’ve done a pretty pathetic sabotage job considering Celtic have won nine in a row, are odds-on favourites for 10IAR and have won a treble-treble and eleven consecutive trophies.
As I’ve said on here before, try being a ‘diddy-team’ supporter for a month or two and you’ll maybe appreciate only being the second most cosseted club in Scotland.
Big Pink 17th August 2020 at 08:54
It is indeed a difficult one as there are plenty of examples of players breaking the law or doing something stupid across the years.
However these 'infringements' by Aberdeen and Celtic players have had a direct impact on the league and other clubs, therefore have to be considered in a different light from a player being arrested for a fight in a kebab shop. A second wave and fixture congestion later in the year may become very interesting.
The issue is that the football authorities and the SPFL in particular have only came up with a short term idea of 'give us executive powers' with apparently no explanation to anyone what that may have entailed.
If they had spent an appropriate amount of time explaining what powers, rules and punishments they may have been considering, then clubs may have been more inclined to pass a resolution.
As it is we have Scottish football in limbo, once again, with daft and inconsistent decision being made.
(Hearts (& PT , Stranraer) did no harm to anyone but got relegated. Hearts did no harm to anyone but now can't train.)
Highlander
Nothing personal – but sometimes I feel I just have to respond!
My comment is indeed about whataboutery – a perfectly legitimate ‘weapon’ in challenging what, in this situation and in my humble opinion, an idiotic argument (I meant to include the subtle digs from SMSM).
To compare Murray/Whyte criminal actions to this health issue – which we are all powerless over – is, frankly, in itself nonsensical. Please note that neither Celtic nor Aberdeen were complicit in, indeed were ignorant of, the actions of their players. The same could not be said of Oldco, the Banks and the SMSM.
Finally, give me a break about my ‘green tinted specs’. – which I have proudly worn my entire life in the face of, let’s just call it anti Celtic factions, in Scotland.
bect67 17th August 2020 at 12:44
Similarly, nothing personal, but 'Whoooooshhhh!', in my opinion – a differing opinion which we're each entitled to hold.
I wasn't intent on likening the seriousness of the Murray/Whyte offences to those of Bolingoli etc, only attempting to highlight the feeble defence that the players 'went rogue' so the club is blameless; that's the club that is supposedly commited to educating its staff about the serious consequences of failing to follow protocols as per the terms of restarting the Scottish Premiership.
I'll leave it at that.
Highlander 17th August 2020 at 11:34
The argument that the club should not be held accountable for the actions of one rogue player/employee gives credence to the notion that Rangers FC shouldn’t be punished for the actions of individual rogues such as David Murray or Craig Whyte, for example.
………………
Every thing they signed off on would have been signed off on rangers football club headed paper.David Murray ran up a huge debt in rangers name. 276 creditors would not be looking to craig whyte for their money.
…………………….
While I totally agree we should be asking what happened to Sevco’s flouting of the law, unfortunately your comment smacks of whataboutery. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
…
What is wrong with asking for a level playing field? Are you suggesting it is ok to punish some clubs for rule breaking and not others?
If the SFA or the SPFL want to rake over old coals to dish out punishment, what is stopping them going back to the start?
Or rather why would they not go back to the start?
Cluster One 17th August 2020 at 13:48
"Aye but it wuznae wur club that overspent pyoor mullions, it wiz that wee shyte Whyte that went rogue and put the holding company into adminiliquidation."
No, I'm not suggesting it's ok to punish some clubs for rule breaking and not others – that's why I specifically said "I totally agree we should be asking what happened to Sevco’s flouting of the law."
All of the infractions in protocols carried identical risks if not followed. That risk being the further transmission of the virus. In that respect they are all equal and there are no mitigating factors. We have all been living, and attempting to deal with it for long enough to know the score and transmission causes.
Retrospective action, if it is to be taken, should include all retrospective infractions. It is not rocket science. The game was shut down in March, and that is where the calendar of retrospective action should begin.
Personally I don't agree with retrospective action for a multiple of reasons, but, for the game to continue, action MUST be taken to move forward. (again I don't agree with all of "must")
Any action should be from now going forth, and clearly defined, or from a calendar start of March. There cannot be a selective calendar of exclusion.
According to Tom English , TRFC spent the followng on players
£7m Kent, £4m Ianis Hagi, £3.5m Kemar Roofe, £2.5m Cedric Itten
Not according to Steven Gerrard ,
He told the PA news agency: “The numbers for Kemar and Cedric that have been suggested in the media aren’t right. The figures suggested are inflated.
Who to believe .
Corrupt official 17th August 2020 at 15:34
As people have pointed out, if preventing transmission of the virus was the point in postponing games then why did the other games go ahead.
Kilmarnock played in their next game, presumably the match officials were available for selection. If prevention of transmission was the point then everyone in contact with Boligoli should have been involved.
Am I not also right as saying he was confirmed as being negative prior to the next scheduled game going ahead.
I'm afraid it's all getting more confusing for me, postponing the games served no purpose that I can see. Other than to worsen the potential backlog of fixtures, and the innocent clubs will be involved in that as well.
Forgive me if I am missing something obvious here.
Narrative beginning to unravel ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53806944
Interesting appointment as CEO at Hearts as Ann Budge takes a step back, although she remains as chairman.
https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/andrew-mckinlay-appointed-chief-executive
I'm sure Auldheid will recognise the name of Andrew McKinlay as a former Director of Governance and Football Regulation at the SFA, as the Res 12 lawyers were in correspondence with him back in 2015.
paddy malarkey 17th August 2020 at 17:16
Narrative beginning to unravel ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53806944
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It would not surprise me if Charles Green was to achieve a similar result to Imran Ahmad for wrongful prosecution.
It could also be a precursor to the D&P guys being successful in their actions against the LA and Police Scotland, although I'd like to know what it was that has triggered this volte-face by the Crown.
Can anyone remember who Imran Ahmad was supposed to have defrauded and how he was supposed to have done it.
Homunculus 17th August 2020 at 17:54
Can anyone remember who Imran Ahmad was supposed to have defrauded and how he was supposed to have done it.
=================================
It was the fraudulent acquisition of the club’s business and assets from the administrators via Sevco 5088/Scotland
you CRAIG THOMAS WHYTE, DAVID JOHN WHITEHOUSE, PAUL JOHN CLARK, CHARLES ALEXANDER GREEN and SHEIK IMRAN AHMAD, known as IMRAN AHMAD, did conspire together to defraud the creditors of the Club of funds and assets lawfully available to them and to allow you CRAIG THOMAS WHYTE, CHARLES ALEXANDER GREEN and SHEIK IMRAN AHMAD, known as IMRAN AHMAD, to fraudulently acquire from the Joint Administrators, control, de facto control and ownership of the business and assets of the Club through Sevco 5088 Limited, a company incorporated under the Companies Acts with company number 8011390 and having its registered office at 35 Vine Street, London and Sevco Scotland Limited, a company incorporated under the Companies Acts with company number SC425159 and having its registered office at Capella, 60 York
Street, Glasgow for a consideration significantly below the true market value of the said business and assets and in furtherance thereof:-
Homunculus 17th August 2020 at 16:31
Corrupt official 17th August 2020 at 15:34
As people have pointed out, if preventing transmission of the virus was the point in postponing games then why did the other games go ahead.
=========================================
I don't think you're missing anything H, from political interference to PR fire-fighting, or even from internal fitba' politics.
My point was simply about going forward. Each and every "offender", is guilty of the same offence, namely, creating, or being involved in a situation of potential virus transmission. There are no "levels" of guilt. One either did, or didnae. Firing a gun into a crowd is no less serious just because one missed everybody.
Neither should there be a starting date for retrospective reprisal, other than the closing down of fitba'.
It's either nobody or everybody retrospectively acted upon, or its everybody equally faces punishments going forward under clear mandates.
I happen to think retrospective punishment on Celtic, (my club) harsh, because I genuinely do think they have done everything possible (and more), to progress the game safely.
The fact is other clubs have had harshnesses exacted upon them due to the pandemic through no particular fault of their own also.
I will leave the politics to others, but the govt can shut the game down, and I recognise that. The governing bodies need to "appear", to be no-nonsense governors, the general public are aggrieved after much personal sensible sacrifices following govt recommendations. Appeasements must be made.
I doubt there are any ballers now unaware of the seriousness of further breeches. All it takes is somebody to write down what's what, and circulate it. The player is personally responsible for his own behaviour outside work….Job done !… I said we should have sought to agree clear covid rules weeks ago.
Retrospective punishments can only be applied fairly, (despite the fact it is unfair), if it is unfairly invoked since the onslaught of these unique circumstances in March. It must be all-inclusive.
I support your Killie argument, but will extend it to Sevco v Aberdeen. Who can honestly say that the Aberdeen players who tested +ve never took the virus quite innocently to the pub/restaurant with them, and were potentially the source of the spike?
There is no doubt Celtic and Aberdeen had their games cancelled for reasons other than potential transmission transgressions……But I do get it…..It was a yellow card of public awareness, and a warning to the other offenders who escaped under the radar.
Mobile cameras are everywhere, as are rival fans with a grudge. If a ballers personal license/ authority to play is at stake, then more fool he for thinking a Groucho Marx nose would be a good disguise.
Govt involvement is wrong, but it was also right…..and measured. It is the governing bodies response to that govt "threat" that is unbalanced.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53806944
………………….
He initially wanted £2m in damages but it is understood he is now claiming tens of millions of pounds.
………………
Just how much money will police scotland have cost the tax payer at the end of all this?
Highlander 17th August 2020 at 14:08
Cluster One 17th August 2020 at 13:48
“Aye but it wuznae wur club that overspent pyoor mullions, it wiz that wee shyte Whyte
………………
Big smile
easyJambo 17th August 2020 at 17:43 although I’d like to know what it was that has triggered this volte-face by the Crown.
……….
Mr Grier says that he was wrongly arrested during an investigation, led by Mr Robertson, into allegations of criminal behaviour during the sale of rangers in 2011.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lawyers-spend-200-hours-grilling-rangers-officer-b0h622vsn
Aug 12, 2020
…….
200 hours must have turned something up, or was it 200 hours spent trying to get a narattive right.
……………
easyJambo 17th August 2020 at 18:06
Thanks for that, so they had them all as co-conspiritors. I suppose Whyte being acquitted wouldn't help the case against the rest.
Homunculus 17th August 2020 at 17:54
………………….
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1295438706938204161/photo/1
…
Would not return to the UK as he said he would not get a fair trial.
He never spent any time in the cells, so whatever he gets in compensation i would expect Green and company to get a lot more after being dragged in front of the media and put in cells.
easyJambo 17th August 2020 at 18:06
'.you CRAIG THOMAS WHYTE, DAVID JOHN WHITEHOUSE, PAUL JOHN CLARK, CHARLES ALEXANDER GREEN and SHEIK IMRAN AHMAD, known as IMRAN AHMAD, .
"""""""""""""""""""""""
"Mr easyJambo, which iteration of the charges is this?Do I have a copy?"
Oh, the memories!
easyJambo 17th August 2020 at 17:37
Interesting appointment as CEO at Hearts as Ann Budge takes a step back, although she remains as chairman.
https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/andrew-mckinlay-appointed-chief-executive
Andrew McKinlay former Director of Governance and Football Regulation at the SFA
………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Very interesting indeed.
He will know stuff.
Maybe a poacher turned gamekeeper gambit?
To talk of fairness in the punishment of clubs for the actions of players is neither here nor there.
Football clubs were who appealed for dispensation from the SG to restart the sport and they did so by giving assurances that they would be able to put in place procedures that guaranteed that there was no risk. That was an assurance that was impossible to make as can be seen by the recent action of players but they made it anyway.
Having given those assurances then they have no defense of "Naw, it wis the players!". The clubs have made themselves responsible for the subsequent events, events that could cause lives.
As to "Whit aboot Killie", there seems to be a total lack of understanding of track and trace procedures here. Aberdeen players tested positive and therefore all the people that they came in contact with would have to isolate for 14 days hence no football. To my mind there should be no football for them even if they tested negative – as a punishment with a 0 – 3 loss for that game. The same for Celtic because of Bolingoli but there is a difference on this occasion. Bolingoli tested negative and so track and trace was unnecessary and so Killie were in the clear.
This season will be next to impossible to complete should everything run smoothly but we now have games to reschedule after only two weeks of the season starting. And these are the best climatic conditions to tackle COVID.
Instead of hammering your keyboards with complaints about how your team is being victimised why not reading up on track and trace, the after effects of COVID or, to give some insight into what could happen to football in mid winter, check out what is happening in the southern hemisphere where it is winter now. Whole States in Australia being blocked off or New Zealand who are now seeing a return of COVID after having succeeding in making their country COVID free.
If you want to complain about anything in football then complain that no action was taken against The Rangers when they put Dundee United players at risk. The other two games that people seem to be so exercised over were actually handled correctly. Rangers-Motherwell didn't start until the results came through and the Hibs game was cancelled because the lab didn't supply the results in time.
COVID is part of our lives now and actions will always appear unfair to people but perhaps it is time to accept it and be more selective in what we see as an injustice.
Mickey Edwards 18th August 2020 at 10:03
As to "Whit aboot Killie", there seems to be a total lack of understanding of track and trace procedures here. Aberdeen players tested positive and therefore all the people that they came in contact with would have to isolate for 14 days hence no football. To my mind there should be no football for them even if they tested negative – as a punishment with a 0 – 3 loss for that game. The same for Celtic because of Bolingoli but there is a difference on this occasion. Bolingoli tested negative and so track and trace was unnecessary and so Killie were in the clear.
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It's not a "lack of understanding" it's exactly the point. If there was no reason to postpone the Kilmarnock game based on containing the virus what was the reason for postponing the Celtic game.
If it was a punishment it punished St Mirren every bit as much and they had done nothing wrong.
It just doesn't make any sense that I can see, I am happy to be educated though.
Mickey Edwards 18th August 2020 at 10:03
To talk of fairness in the punishment of clubs for the actions of players is neither here nor there…
‘=======’
Absolutely!
Scottish football agreed a deal / special dispensation with the SG.
Scottish football failed to honour the agreement.
And, like a broken record…
this sits at the door of Hampden, and is just further proof that Scottish football has woefully incompetent and inept leadership.
“Misunderstanding protocols” my @rse.
Mistakes made and nothing learned, as per.
Homunculus@11:12
You are right that there is no sense but should we be expecting sense?
Still too little is known about COVID and that is one side of it but more importantly is the accuracy of the testing, in particular the ones with speedy results. St Mirren employees tested positive on the "quick" test but the majority of those were reversed on the more thorough tests.
In my own family my grandson and the rest of his platoon in the US were tested after one member showed symptoms, found negative and returned to duties. 3-4 days later my grandson started showing symptoms, was retested and proved positive as did others. Fortunately he appears to have none of the long term after effects and is recovering well.
The government, in particular Westminster, are spouting forth about the benefits of testing and tracing neither of which are performing to an effective level. Politicians will always tell you how well they are performing and underplay the problems. Little by little the full effects of COVID are coming out but never through the briefings or press reports.
Those are the conditions under which football are guaranteeing a return is safe. To me this is an impossible guarantee to fulfill.
The Killie game against Celtic was not postponed because Bolingoli's trip was still not known about and his testing happened after the game was played. It proved negative and so no track and trace was necessary leaving them to play their next game.
As far as I'm concerned Celtic's game was rightly stopped but for the reason that every team must find a way to be able to stick to what they guaranteed so basically it was a punishment.
If football is to be completed this season then I do not believe postponements under these circumstances are the way forward. There will be many as we go into the winter season and that's not counting weather postponements. The only way to give any chance of completion is to award the points to the non-"offending" team or no points if both have been responsible.
Screams of "that's no fair" will no doubt follow but as we saw last season an unfinished season isn't fair either.
What we need to concern ourselves with is tackling where the authorities do not treat every offending team the same.
Mickey Edwards 18th August 2020 at 12:17
What we need to concern ourselves with is tackling where the authorities do not treat every offending team the same.
……………….
That is all anyone is asking. They are also asking and wondering why every offending team is not being treated the same.Something that the SMSM should be at the forefront of, but you will wait a life time for that.
Mickey Edwards 18th August 2020 at 12:17
As far as I'm concerned Celtic's game was rightly stopped but for the reason that every team must find a way to be able to stick to what they guaranteed so basically it was a punishment.
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Equally St Mirren's game was stopped.
Which goes right back to the point, why are St Mirren being punished.
The system makes no sense.
With regards "Screams of "that's no fair" …" is there a facility within the system to award the points in the way you suggest. Clearly points can be removed, for example in an insolvency event. However is there any facility within the system for St Mirren being awarded the points in that game.
We talk about the authorities "making up the rules as they go along", would this just be another example of them doing that.
Homunculus 18th August 2020 at 20:11
‘..We talk about the authorities “making up the rules as they go along”, would this just be another example of them doing that. ‘
“””””””””””””””””””””””””
I am coming late to proceedings tonight.
I am so computer/tech illiterate that when I forgot my SFM password, and hunted for it in bits of paper here and there, and then did the ‘forget password’ carry on, it took me on a feckin journey that lasted more than an hour.
Word Press emails to my John Clark(e) address, text messages with code numbers or last two numbers of my mobile.
And I always got it feckin wrong. A message comes up: enter password below.
So I enter what I decide will be my new password, on the basis that what’s already in the box is an example!
FFS! It’s not an ‘example’: it’s what they are asking I should enter!
I finally twigged that.
And I am so enraged at the guys in computer world who haven’t the feckin language communications skills to realise that there are at least two generations who speak a different language.
But that’s just me, maybe: In the words of T S Eliot ” I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear my trousers rolled”
But to the point.
Was there ever a more astonishing decision made by the members an association of business enterprises, at a time of huge crisis, that they should not authorise some executive authority of their choice to consider the dire consequences of a pandemic and come up with some agreed plans as to how any of all the possible effects should be dealt with? All the ‘what if ‘ scenarios?
There should not be any kind of ‘making rules up as they go along’.
Every single possibility should have been considered, ranging from complete abandonment of the season all the way down to determining how games that were affected by covid , or by the wilful actions of individuals , were to be assessed and so on.
Scottish Football made a pig’s ear of itself in its failure to deal with the cheating and the effects of that cheating by RFC of 1872.
It has made a bigger ars. of things by its inadequacies in squaring up to the virus and its ramifications.
Feckin eejits, them in ‘governance’, as well as being ,essentially, liars ‘governing’ an already corrupted sport.
And, really, who could be arsed with any of them?
John Clark
In the case of the folk who run out clubs, the difference between 2012 and now is that in 2012 they had the authority and expertise to deal with the systemic cheating by Rangers-of-old but choose not to. In the current situation they simply have no skills at all to respond.
Of course one could argue that they lack the skills to manage a sport in either case.
In the case of the MSM, they are no more qualified than you or I to proselytise on either situation, and in most cases no more qualified than you or I to talk about even about the game on the field – a qualification that one assumes should be a prerequisite for employment in that area of endeavour.
Compounding the Covid19/Scottish football conundrums, it appears Craig Napier, who made his Premiership debut at Dingwall last Saturday, was also the lead official at Murray Park when a "Rangers XI” took on Dundee United in a pre-season match in late July.
It’s now common knowledge that at least 9 Ibrox players hadn’t received Covid clearance, but also unusual in that match’s circumstances was Napier officiated without assistants, as they were refused entry to Murray Park, having been tested at Motherwell’s Fir Park earlier in the week. The results weren’t back from the laboratory.
The failure of TRFC to follow procedures was put down to a ‘misunderstanding’ in the media, but that excuse appears hollow given the conditions which prevented the assistant referees participating. Did the SFA release an official statement absolving the club of blame, as I can’t appear to locate one?
borussiabeefburg 19th August 2020 at 09:23
It indeed seems to be a mystery. However T’Rangers may not be the only guilty party. If T’Rangers were unable to prove their players were Covid free then are Dundee Utd not just as guilty for going ahead and playing the friendly game?
Either Dundee Utd were lied to that everything was A-OK or the visiting club went ahead and played, fully in the knowledge that no testing results were being produced by the home side.
For what its worth, the way I see it was the friendlies were a bedding in system. In football terms, like the first 5-10 minutes the game has been allowed to flow and the officials have not been too heavy handed. The cancelling of the Aberdeen and Celtic games was ‘political’ but was indeed a yellow card from the officials as it was feared things were quickly getting out of hand. The next infraction will be a straight red.
Within the rules the SPFL board have it within their powers to cancel and reschedule games as they see fit. I have no doubt political pressure was put on them to postpone matches.
The issue is that, apart from postponement, they have no other agreed rules and associated ‘punishments’ on how to deal with infractions of the Covid Guidance and the agreed protocols.
Personally I think punishing players and clubs for someone testing positive is harsh being the virus could be caught through potentially irresponsible behaviour (such as going out on the town in large groups) or simply by a unsuspecting family member bringing the virus into a player’s home.
To me the best parallel is the current rules on gambling. Society can gamble but football officials, coaches and players can’t as it potentially brings the game into disrepute. Essentially they are expected to be held to a higher standard than the rest of society.
Failure to confirm to the general Covid guidelines and the football protocols should be seen in a similar fashion.
If a person or persons involved in professional football is alleged to have breached the guidelines/protocol then (as long as they are Covid free) they play on until such time they are brought before the beak, the case is heard and, if found guilty, punishment handed out if necessary. This would normally be a ban for ‘x’ number of games.
If the club then also wishes to fine/discipline/re-educate a person internally then that is up to them.
All that being said I can see why the Scot Gov may have wanted to place down an early marker to put across a serious public health message.
I am sure as this ‘new normal’ continues then other major events in the public eye, such as concerts and the like, will receive similar treatment as this issue goes well beyond football.
While it would be good to have answers to everything, people and organisations are still finding their feet as this pandemic progresses. Therefore, more of a cock-up and/or lack of knowledge and planning as opposed to conspiracy.
However, the problem with the football authorities, once again, is a lack of openness and transparency as to how they are dealing with matters that are clearly within the public domain.
borussiabeefburg
Good points, but there really is no mystery – Sevco and Sevconians require no absolution from their ‘sins’.
It is generally acknowledged on this site that both incarnations of the outfit fae Govan were/are treated differently (i.e more favourably) from others (Divine Right of WATP?) – to put it mildly, but I would dearly love SPFL/SFA to ‘try it on’ with points deductions (oh – unless it included SEVCO for their flaunting of the rules!). ‘Fairs fair’ after all – isn’t it!?
We would then, I believe, see a backlash from RC’s pal Peter. Injustice, inconsistency preferential treatment are screaming at us, and it wouldn’t take a Philadelphia Lawyer to ‘sort them out’.
Doncaster et al know this, and I believe the football authorities are trying (in vain) to show how tough they can be, in a futile attempts to impress wee Nicola and/or save face regarding their shambolic handling of the whole ‘breaking the rules’ Covid scenario.
Just a final question for/dig at Sevco 34 game legend ‘what’s the score’ Alex Rae …
When was the last time Celtic scored at Rugby Park? and Who do you think might have scored it?
Mickey Edwards 18th August 2020 at 10:03
wottpi 19th August 2020 at 11:03
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The agreement with the SG that football could only resume under conditions of special dispensation was a hostage to fortune from the off. I trust the suggestion that NS could or would cancel the season or otherwise stop matches being played until further notice is wide of the mark, although I have my doubts.
The SPFL need to have clear, agreed rules, and pronto.
I initially thought that postponing the Aberdeen games against St. J. and Hamilton was unfair, because the other teams were being disadvantaged, but I have now changed my view. As wottpi points out above, testing positive is in itself not an offence. As Mickey Edwards says, the Aberdeen players had to self isolate because they had been in contact with a positive person. That is not the fault of the club or the players, no offence has been committed. Postponing the games was correct I think.
The Aberdeen 8 themselves however breached COVID regulations with their night out. I again agree with wottpi above that he punishment for this should be an x game suspension. I would also expect them to be fined by the club for breaching the special dispensation, however flawed that may be, as it shows the club accepting a share of the responsibility, and I suspect the players themselves could be found to be in breach of contract by effectively breaking conditions of employment.
More serious I think are the cases of the TRFC 9 and Bolingoli. In both instances players took the field when it was not known if they were positive. They risked the health of everyone associated with the match. They were ineligible to play. TRFC should not have let them play, they knew the results had not been confirmed. CFC should have known about Bolingoli; they have a duty to ensure that no-one takes the field who has not tested negative. If he concealed his trip, then the club have to accept responsibility nonetheless, and he is out the door. All the players should face suspensions and fines.CFC should have had 0 points for the match, and 3 deducted, and TRFC should have started the season on -3 points, in both cases for fielding ineligible players. I think it would be harsh, albeit amusing, to deduct 27 points from TRFC.
Hopefully no player will take the field and subsequently be found to be positive. There needs to be a rule for it though.
John Clark 18th August 2020 at 23:49
But that’s just me, maybe: In the words of T S Eliot ” I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear my trousers rolled”
Feckin eejits, them in ‘governance’, as well as being ,essentially, liars ‘governing’ an already corrupted sport.
And, really, who could be arsed with any of them?
———-
The Hollow Men by T.S. Eliot
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar
Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;
…
and empty vessels (make the most noise).
Its the (hot) air inside ye ken
Macfurgly
It's my understanding that Boli Bolingoli, along with all the other Celtic players, had been tested twice prior to the Killie game and all tests were negative. If so why should Celtic and St. Mirren be punished with a match postponement?
Could it be that one positive test by a St. Mirren player was the reason that this match was postponed?
weejoe 20th August 2020 at 15:07
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If Bolingoli was known to be negative then no points deduction but a suspension for him for his trip to Spain.
Re the St, Mirren player, they would then be in the position Aberdeen were in, isolate for 2 weeks and matches are postponed for that time.
Just about everybody has a just point in their arguments to whether a club and/or players should / should not recieve a certain punishment. For me it always comes back to the fact once again that the SFA are not fit for purpose . How many more chances are these bufoons gonna get until clubs take action and give them a vote of no confidence and chase them out our game forever . They are a cancer in our game . Until we stop paying thier huge salaries for being brilliant at imcompitence our game will never move forward . SURELY the owners/ chairmen of all clubs must recognise this . Or do they think eventually they might get things right in the end , if so they will have a loooooooooooooong wait. They need chased ASAP
“Could it be that one positive test by a St. Mirren player was the reason that this match was postponed? “
it was one of Saints’ coaching staff. Not a player.
roddybhoy 20th August 2020 at 17:01
Just about everybody has a just point in their arguments to whether a club and/or players should / should not recieve a certain punishment. For me it always comes back to the fact once again that the SFA are not fit for purpose . How many more chances are these bufoons gonna get until clubs take action and give them a vote of no confidence and chase them out our game forever.
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I couldn't agree more with you roddybhoy regarding the incompetence of the SFA, but how can the clubs chase them, when it is the clubs players that are breaking the covid restrictions. ……That will be some argument !
"Yooz broke the covid rules and are getting punished !"
"Whit rules?!… yooz dinnae huv any rules"
"We didnae think we'd need thum"……"Anyway, the league tried tae get rules and yooz widnae let them"
"Aye, but wur no talkin' tae them because o' the stramash ower the league calling. We dinnae like it when they applied the rules, an' some o' us telt thum !"
So yir beef wi us is that we don't huv any rules fur ye no tae like.
"Correct-e-mundo !
"So yeez waant us tae huv rules and apply thum?"
"No chance !……. Ye mental?!
——————————–
Our game is stark raving bonkers roddy. From my Celtic point of view, it's time we baled. Any clubs (well, almost any) who feel they have the professionalism and capabilities to fit in somewhere else, are more than welcome to try with us, for there is no fixing the mess that it has become in Scotland. Every man for himself has become the prevalent murmurings. The wummin and children are fecked.
I doubt this season will be completed, and next season will see the survivors in other countries hastily attempt to cobble something cross-border together….I'd rather the SFA are nowhere near it.
macfurgly 20th August 2020 at 14:34
'.The Hollow Men by T.S. Eliot'
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Took the words right out of my mouth, macfurgly!
The super duper castore replica kits are not all the hype they were made up to be, and a bit of a backlash from the ibrox fan base won't do the castore brand much good in branching out into the football world. And yet not one complaint from any bought from a sports direct store. Either no fan of ibrox has bought a replica kit from sports direct, or they have and have found nothing wrong. Or sports direct are selling a better quality of replica kit or they have a better quality control. No doubt the ibrox club will issue a statement on Friday and clear everything up for the not very happy ibrox fan base.
John Clark 20th August 2020 at 20:46
…………..
I always think of this when i see the Hollow man mentioned.
https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yset_ff_hp_cnewtab&p=youtube+Marillion+Hollow+man#id=11&vid=4a8afc5caf1b17570192039e38a7bcff&action=view
…………
I think i have become one of the hollow men as i shine on the outside more these days. I can feel the outside feeding on my inside leaves a growing darkness in it’s place.
…..
Bit OT but it’s quite.
Cluster One 20th August 2020 at 21:25
I think i have become one of the hollow men as i shine on the outside more these days. I can feel the outside feeding on my inside leaves a growing darkness in it’s place.
————–
While one would like to think that Doncaster et al may develop such a sense of self awareness, don't hold your breath.
Cue Stevie BC.
I’m no stranger to Phil. Nor am I a stranger to the occasional regrettable post. But I find it interesting that the comments on Phil’s blog are mostly restricted to trumpet blowing. So I posted this; albeit the censorship on his blog prevails:
Phil, you advocate fair and balanced journalism, yet you continue to blow the same whistle. Is it not beyond time that you stopped K’ing ‘clan base’ and turned your focus on something other than T’rangers? Your Klan references are offensive to every decent minded person, not least to those supporters of T’rangers that support their club and remain opposed to the quasi-religious beliefs of the beleaguered. You’ve exhausted your one trick pony status. I can’t help but picture some geezer in a pub slabbering about how he ‘once jigsawed a book together’ and then sought out a similar, single minded ‘stenographer’ to edit it. It’s time you moved on, at least until your rugger chap transcends the agility and improvisation of a Gareth Edwards try.
‘He who establishes his argument by noise and command, shows that his reason is weak’.
TSFM never loses sight of the bluff. I can’t help thinking that Phil should trade in his ‘circus mirror’ and take a long hard look at his tired reflection. Scottish Football has more ‘trying’ times ahead than a debate over a club that means more to him than it does to the true proletariat of the game. They died. Get over it Philip.
On a miserable day, I’m trying to cheer myself up – so, just a thought for the blog, as an alternative to the SPFL/SFL being referred to as ‘blazers’, ‘governors’, ‘feckin eejits’ (c. JC) etc., how about ….
The Hollow Men of Hampden (with special credits to our very own macfurgly and to TS Eliot, who would surely never have dreamed of his work appearing on SFM – the ultimate accolade!!)?
stifflersmom 21st August 2020 at 00:08
'. Scottish Football has more ‘trying’ times ahead than a debate over a club that means more to him than it does to the true proletariat of the game. They died.'
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[I pass no comment on your post on another blog, stifflersmom: that blogger can answer for himself ]
But , of course, I cannot let your observation (reproduced above) pass without comment.
RFC, as you rightly remark, died.
But RFC (and SDM) were only part of the corruption of our sport, and not even the most significant part:
as said before, one rotten football club is just one rotten football club damaging as it may be.
However a rotten 'governance' which not only does not deal properly with the rotten club, but aids and assists a new club to claim to be what it most definitely is not, and, further, allows a new plc to claim to be what it is not, is an affront to any kind of notion of Sporting Integrity,.
And an aggregation of 'sport clubs' which is prepared to accept that kind of corrupt governance rather than insist on having the corruption rooted out and corrective measures put in place deserves no sympathy in whatever kind of other troubles it finds itself.
There can be no meaningful 'moving on' until the wrongs are righted and honesty is restored.
Let TRFC be acknowledged as the 'new' club that they are, and accept the consequences of that in terms of dropping the false nonsense that they are somehow the very same club that is, as I write, in Liquidation, and let RIFC plc quietly and anxiously worry about their doubtful IPO prospectus claim!
And, then, perhaps, the return of decency and truth to Scottish Football will be possible, and we can all wholeheartedly work to help it survive the pandemic and wish it well.
bect67 21st August 2020 at 10:28
'..and to TS Eliot, who would surely never have dreamed of his work appearing on SFM – the ultimate accolade!!)?'
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Who knows, bect67?
I've just had a wee read at this light-hearted piece.
https://www.twtd.co.uk/blogs/21726/ts-eliot-and-the-football-waste-land
Thanks for that link JC …
Brilliant, ‘left field’ humour so to speak – ahm ferr cheered up noo!
For anyone with some interest in how the Courts are dealing with their business during the pandemic, what the Lord President, Lord Carloway, had to say in a speech yesterday is worth seeing and hearing.
The video lasts about 20 minutes, and can be downloaded on this link:
https://spaces.hightail.com/receive/mtPefS2sgJ/fi-3d5817e8-34b4-45f9-a62b-bed8920ecf37/fv-bd7062d0-031c-4508-8763-cab84329edfe/LP%20Change%20Aug%202020%20rA.mp4
I found it extremely interesting and informative.
(At 19 mins 50 seconds in, Lord Carloway has a wee dig in passing at Scottish Football)
Separately, on Tuesday 26th, there are procedural hearings in the Whitehouse and Clark cases.
I hope to get the access code which will let me follow the 'virtual' procedure live on the phone.
Just like the Castore kit shambles seems to have opened the eyes of most bears to the shambolic leadership in the Blue Room…
the covid related embarrassments in Scottish football might have opened the eyes of those outside football – including those within the SG – to the shambolic leadership at Hampden.
And the Hampden search for new league and cup sponsors is not being made any easier either…
StevieBC 22nd August 2020 at 12:18
'..Just like the Castore kit shambles seems to have opened the eyes of most bears ..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I suppose it wasn't really likely that the quality of material of plebeian football tops produced via Castore would equal the quality of the tennis wear that shareholder Andy Murray buys and wears!
We all know that our football jerseys are basically rubbish ( and highly overpriced relative to manufacturing costs).
Is there any verifiable justification for TRFC fans to have more to complain about the quality of the gear than than fans of other clubs?
I got the impression that Castore quite valued their brand name, and aimed at the higher-spending punter.
Having it linked with the Andy Murrays of the sports world is one thing. Having it linked to products the quality of which can be severely criticised by football punters in the stands is surely not advisable?
stifflersmom 21st August 2020 at 00:08
I’m no stranger to Phil. Nor am I a stranger to the occasional regrettable post. But I find it interesting that the comments on Phil’s blog are mostly restricted to trumpet blowing. So I posted this; albeit the censorship on his blog prevails:
……………….
Abusive stuff getting binned isn’t something to really complain about.Phil regularly approves of comments taking issue with his content. But abusive stuff that may be libel he bins.
Anything that adds nothing of value to his blog will also be binned. I think he does his own monitoring so some comments may or may not get under the radar.
I am sure abusive comments to a blog writer on SFM would also get binned here.
My thoughts is it is his blog and he can do what what he has to do in the best interests of his readership.
As i have read lots of times on blogs of different sorts if you don’t like it you don’t have to read it, or if you don’t like it comment on why you don’t like it but in a civil manner, and you may even get your point across.
stifflersmom 21st August 2020 at 00:08
I think his issues have always been more with the attitude and culture of the club and the people who follow rather it than the football. He isn't a sports journalist.
The football club died, a lot of the baggage didn't.
From almost exactly a year ago, playing in Europe against a Polish team.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/08/23/uefa-judge-rangerss-chants-racist-close-stand-punishment-3000/
23 AUGUST 2019
Uefa judge Rangers's chants as racist and close stand in punishment, with 3,000 fans set to miss out.
John Clark 22nd August 2020 at 12:51
I'm not sure you have kept up with this ongoing story. It's not that they expect better than anyone else, they just want a decent product for their money.
Apparently Castore made all sorts of promises but when it came to fulfilling them they couldn't. So they have outsourced production to Turkey, China and India. Apparently some of the stuff from Turkey is really poor quality and when seen side by side with the Chinese produced kit it is night and day with regards materials and production quality. In fact the styles are even different, which is a bit mad as they are ostensibly replicas of the same thing.
I think the real killer though was with regards some of the "lifestyle" stuff. It seems they forget to take an existing label out of a kids sweatshirt and it turned out it was actually a generic on sold for kids wearing to school. The problem was it normally sells for about £10, they had ironed on a Castore crest and a Rangers crest and were charging £60 or something like that.
It seems this there is also poor response to emails, refusal to accept returns if the labels are off or the stuff has been worn etc.
It would appear they really have been ripped off on this one. A lot of the support are not happy with the club for their inaction in all of this.
Morelos not even in the squad today.
Apparently not injured.
Has TRFC found a buyer?
Or, is the ‘rookie PR guru’ at Ibrox doing overtime to produce a novel, copy/paste story for the Sunday papers…?
StevieBC 22nd August 2020 at 16:20
His head has been turned and he is not performing well in training apparently.
StevieBC 22nd August 2020 at 16:20 Morelos not even in the squad today
———————–
Bad Fluffalo!… Paving the way for the acceptance of a realistic transfer fee Stevie.
Corrupt official 22nd August 2020 at 17:19
………………
How long before we see a picture of him blowing his nose into a pair of shorts, or has that been done before already?
Cluster One 22nd August 2020 at 17:26
Corrupt official 22nd August 2020 at 17:19
……………… How long before we see a picture of him blowing his nose into a pair of shorts, or has that been done before already?
≠===============
I saw a photo earlier C1, with the badge hanging off the shorts of Defoe. Maybe he already has….. Or maybe That's Castore.
Homunculus 22nd August 2020 at 16:02
'.I'm not sure you have kept up with this ongoing story..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I hadn't ,actually, Homunculus, and I'm grateful for the details you provide.
As I understand things, 'Castore' is just a Trade mark owned by the J Carter Sporting Club Ltd, which has , as far as I can figure, no manufacturing capacity whatsoever. Accordingly, it touts the 'Trade" mark around to clothing manufacturers who agree to manufacture to specification.
If manufacturers in China are producing better quality than those in Turkey ,that would suggest that the 'specification' might not include anything other than that the 'Castore' design/trademark be used , without any specification as to quality of the material or workmanship.
I think that was what I wondered about: if the 'Castore' brand is going on to lousy, cheap trashy material, the brand name would surely suffer, and the Beahon brothers/J Carter Sporting Club and its shareholders would not be too happy!
I wonder how that came about, if that is what actually happened?
And any consumer is entitled to value for money!
John Clark 22nd August 2020 at 22:20 Homunculus 22nd August 2020 at 16:02 '
.I'm not sure you have kept up with this ongoing story..' """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I hadn't ,actually, Homunculus, and I'm grateful for the details you provide.
===============
It goes deeper than that John. Castore marketed the kit as made of bionic materials, so they could hardly be described as a shelf item, or everybody would be using them.
On top their manufacturing process was billed as revolutionary and out of the ordinary. Hardly bog standard for a factory setting bank of sewing machines.
In short the gear they are supplying has little or no chance of doing what it says on the tin.
It's a rip-off in other words. With Castore ownership masked in obscurities, the only debate to be had is by who?.
Cluster
My thoughts is it is his blog and he can do what what he has to do in the best interests of his readership.
As i have read lots of times on blogs of different sorts if you don’t like it you don’t have to read it, or if you don’t like it comment on why you don’t like it but in a civil manner, and you may even get your point across.
Are you serious?
Based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever,
I've thought that King had some link to Castore.
Could be totally off the mark, but the entire Castore engagement by RIFC/TRFC has just been weird on several levels…
In regards to the Castore strips I saw a link yesterday to the Asian equivalent of Amazon called Alibaba who are selling the strips ranging from less than US $5 for a single shirt to less than US $2 if a buyer wants 20,000 which is likely to throw a spanner in the works.
I also discovered these archive threads a few weeks ago for anyone who came late to SFM party.
https://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/craig-whyte-castle-grant-and-avoiding-mortgage-repossession/#comments
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-14880473
https://thecelticblog.com/2020/07/blogs/the-complete-a-z-of-scottish-football-scandal-and-corruption/
Corrupt official 22nd August 2020 at 22:43
'..With Castore ownership masked in obscurities,.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
On 13 August Companies House recorded a 'confirmation statement' by J.Carter Sporting Club Ltd , confirming that there are 33 shareholders.
31 of these are named individuals ( eg, the Beahon brothers each holding 19291 shares, and no other individual having more than 4000 shares.
The other 2 shareholders are:
Barruag Prorietary Ltd ATA Handley Family Trust (1477 shares) [there is a W.A Handley charity in Newcastle. Can't find anything on Barruag Pty Ltd ATA , or even what it means-except that the use of 'pty' suggests it's an Australian or South African company?) Any ideas, anyone?
Monte Group (Jersey) Ltd. (15 564 shares). Presumably this is registered in Jersey, so I suppose we can't find out too much more about who controls those shares.
The number of shares issued is 103 760, so the Monte group's holding is not insignificant.
Andy Murray is listed as shareholder 33. He holds 3668 shares.
On the face of, I think, there wouldn't be too much to worry about in terms of anything any more dodgy with J Carter Cporting Club Ltd than with any company trying to maximise profits within commercial law , (whatever about truth, conscience, truth, morality and right and wrong as these notions are viewed by 'business')
StevieBC 23rd August 2020 at 01:50
=================================
I think we have to bear in mind that the Castore deal came at a time when SDI still had “matching rights” and would get to see details of any other bid. With that in mind it was unlikely that any proper manufacturer would come along. I doubt the issues with Hummel / Elite would have improved that situation.
In fact it got to the stage where they even sent out what was little more than an appeal to someone to come along and do it for them.
https://www.rangers.co.uk/article/rangers-enter-market-for-kit-retail-partner/2KddetDvX2ZUKHgAzT6gum
Castore are doing this because no-one else wanted to, and Mike Ashley has exclusive rights as the only seller other than the club and the manufacturer. If they are supplying Ashley with sub-standard kit I have no doubt he will sue them. Or maybe he is guaranteed the decent stuff for his outlets and any shoddy stuff, made to fill orders quickly and cheaply, is sold directly by Rangers / Castore.
Basic due diligence would surely have confirmed that Castore were not up to this. However it is entirely possible they were the only option.
Once again the support have gone from the elation of believing they are top of the heap to realising they have been conned … again.
stifflersmom 22nd August 2020 at 23:23
Are you serious?
…………………….
My thoughts…..
Yes.
John Clark 22nd August 2020 at 22:20
Homunculus 22nd August 2020 at 16:02
‘.I’m not sure you have kept up with this ongoing story..’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
I hadn’t ,actually, Homunculus, and I’m grateful for the details you provide.
…………………….
High performance fabrics sourced directly from family-owned Italian mills manufactured in a technologically advanced eco friendly factory in Portugal.
…
Yet labels are saying made in China and others made in Turkey
Cluster One 23rd August 2020 at 12:17
Maybe the labels are made of Italian material and made in Portugal Cluster.
.
It reminds me of a scam in America years ago. 50 cigarette lighters for a dollar…. Buyers were sent a box of matches. ?
Further to my post of 11.50 this morning, I've tried to register with CIPROZA ( which seems to be a sort of equivalent in South Africa of our Companies House.
South African (and Australian)companies used the word 'Proprietary' rather than 'Company', and I am curious about 'Barruag PTY Ltd ATA'
It's the 'ATA' bit that intrigues me. Apparently :
"ATA /’ â.t.â/ (verb): A Sepedi word meaning ‘to grow’" and it's used by companies like 'ATA Capital' in SA in the way that investment companies here use the word ' growth' when marketing some investment product.
Sepedi is a Bantu language, and one of the eleven official languages of SA- spoken in Gauteng where, I believe, is sited the court which had dealings with DK over many years
I know it's extremely unlikely that DK could be involved in J Carter Sporting Club Ltd via some Handley Family Trust (why would he be??) but it's good fun trying to find out!
And many of us are these days ready to believe (in disbelief!) that anything is possible in the mucky, secret world of 'money'.
Oh well, according to the DR, Morelos is now off to Lille, finally, with this headline;
"Alfredo Morelos Rangers exit set to be concluded swiftly as Lille boss makes 'sooner the better' plea"
Except…
the Lille boss didn't actually mention Morelos – at all;
"Every club is exposed, no one is immune to losing their good players. That's why everything is planned out ahead of time for every position. If there are departures we'll be ready. The sooner anything happens the better, that way we have time to work."
Even for the SMSM, that is quite a creative jump from the quote to the headline / clickbait.
And how would any negotiations go with Lille – or any other interested club?
"Yes, Morelos is not currently at his ideal weight because of, erm, covid. And he's not in the team just now because, erm, we only want to protect him from any injuries – before his big money move…"
Whatever his transfer value, Gerrard has just decreased it, IMO, by dropping him.
Simultaneously, the SMSM is simply failing to report that Gerrard appears to have lost control of his top goalscorer.
(Did Gerrard effectively lose control of his player at the Dubai winter break – and has since been unable / unwilling to manage the situation ?)
StevieBC 24th August 2020 at 10:04
'..Whatever his transfer value, Gerrard has just decreased it, IMO, by dropping him.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"I only want players who are hungry for the shirt," the Englishman (Gerrard) said.
Maybe Morelos took the huff because he only got the Turkish-made shirt that the punters are complaining about?
StevieBC 24th August 2020 at 10:04 Oh well, according to the DR, Morelos is now off to Lille, finally, with this headline;
—————-
I doubt Slippy can get all the blame for mismanagement Stevie. When you have the club making up libellous translations, planting stories about brake cable snipping, and fake transfer headlines, it's bound to take its toll.
CO, agreed that the Club has placed Gerrard in a lose-lose position with the never-ending PR generated, transfer nonsense.
But, if he sees himself as a future LFC manager, (I know!), then he wouldn't stand for that.
He's caught in the middle, is not getting the best out of his squad post-Christmas – and if/when Morelos goes for an 'undisclosed fee' which is nowhere near £16M…Gerrard is probably going to get the blame from the Blue Room.
He is a rookie manager, and if he can't handle one overrated player in his squad, then he's got a tough job to progress after TRFC, IMO.
And the paradox is: Gerrard must have been a no-nonsense captain in the LFC dressing room – and must have personally 'sorted out' squad players who stepped out of line… or am I missing something about his man management skills?
StevieBC 24th August 2020 at 15:01.
Aye, there is no doubt Sevco made his task more difficult, but he was probably met with denials of, "It didnae come frae us", if he mentioned how unsettling it would be for a player. Couple that with the fact, that as a rookie, he probably doesn't have too much clout. It's not as if he was in high demand prior to his appointment, and was hardly in a position to dictate terms.
Any entrepreneurs among ye ?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Adult-2020-2021-Rangers-FC-Home_1600080262726.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.7e4968d7tVpIVs
paddy malarkey 24th August 2020 at 15:59
Any entrepreneurs among ye ?
=========================================
I wonder if Uncle Mick has ordered any paddy, fully invoiced and paper-trailed, delivered in Castore packaging, for the court-case. ?…….Imagine !
paddy malarkey 24th August 2020 at 15:59
Any entrepreneurs among ye ?
…………….
Tried it. Get your hats, scarf and taps, get yer hats, scarf and taps. Stood for 2 hours trying to flog that gear before it dawned. No fans allowed near stadium.
…………..
Well it JC can crack a joke? I am having a go also.
Whereas Messrs Whitehouse and Clark, the Administrators of RFC of 1872 failed to get that club out of Administration, resulting in its Liquidation, their colleagues in BDO -the Administrators appointed to handle the Administration of Dave Whelan Sports Ltd successfully brought that company out of Administration as a going concern.
Full marks to them.
" BDO’s Graham Newton said: “We are pleased to have achieved a sale of a significant part of the DW Sports business as a going concern, as this will not only secure employment for the majority of employees, but should also result in a return to the company’s creditors in due course.”
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/24/mike-ashleys-frasers-group-buys-fitness-chain-dw-sports
John Clark 24th August 2020 at 20:07
Whereas Messrs Whitehouse and Clark, the Administrators of RFC of 1872 failed to get that club out of Administration
……………….
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1297999810616754177/photo/1
We were a success say administrators.
………..
Must be why the are being sued.
Cluster One 24th August 2020 at 21:54
'..Must be why the are being sued.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I must be a wee bit ahent, Cluster One: can you remind me, please: is there still an action against them? I haven't seen anything in recent times that I remember- but the old memory is not what it used to be, and since covid I'm out of the habit of routinely looking at the rolls of court!
BDO certainly intimated that they were going after something like 29 million quid, but that was a good wee while ago and I cannot remember having seen any further development.
If easyJambo is looking in he will probably be more up to date than I.
I could not believe my eyes when I read this morning that 'Lord' ffs George FFoulkes has been appointed 'rapporteur' by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) to lead a 'wide-ranging' inquiry into the running of football across Europe.
It's a safe bet that the 'inquiry' will not be so wide as to include an investigation into how a new football club can be allowed by its National Association to promote itself as being a hundred and forty years older than it is and claim in the market place a sporting history of sporting success to which they have no right; or why a national association can with impunity totally refuse even to investigate allegations of being party to a potentially criminal conspiracy to slide European competition monies to an unentitled club.
Since it's so quiet , any sign of Alastair Johnston's fit and proper clearance ? He was appointed as a director on June 5th , 2017
John Clark 24th August 2020 at 22:17
…………..
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1298326224637513733/photo/1
………………
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-38896812
…………….
They may be waiting on the police scotland court cases collapsing against the administrators before they continue.
Breaking News;
Messi has handed in a transfer request, seeking to trigger a contract clause which supposedly enables him to leave for free, immediately.
The DR sports headline tomorrow;
EXCLUSIVE! Gerrard "looking at Messi"
Let the whatabootery begin .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53913896
paddy malarkey 25th August 2020 at 21:58
Let the whatabootery begin .
==================================
Dunno about whatabootery paddy, but I do know, I know nothing about what will constitute a "Test".
Do we try it first, and wait 2 weeks to see if a spike occurs, then contact trace to see if anyone infected was at the game, or in contact with someone at the game?. Is there a base level to compare with, i.e. An average everyday non-attendance risk of contracting the illness figure?. Will transport links come into play?. Should only walking distance fans be admitted? What about car-sharers from the same household?. Should fans turn up with a valid test certificate?.
There seems to me to be so very many considerations to constitute anything like a test scenario, other than start with a wee number, and keep ones fingers crossed… A wee number soon becomes a big number when rolled out across multiple sports in multiple stadiums. It all seems a bit guinea-pig. Maybe they could whack some lipstick into fans bulbs while they're at it.
Any idea how it works Bud?
John Clark 25th August 2020 at 12:08
“….Lord’ ffs George FFoulkes has been appointed ‘rapporteur’ by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) to lead a ‘wide-ranging’ inquiry into the running of football across Europe.”
Bit of a left field choice. What’s the source?
I can’t find anything on their web pages.
macfurgly 25th August 2020 at 23:15
'..What’s the source?
I can’t find anything on their web pages.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Nor could I!
It was in 'The Scotsman' this morning under the byline of a guy who used to write for Rangers News (Barry Anderson).
I emailed to one of the secretaries ( Ms Ivi-Triin Odrats) of the PACE (parliamentary assembly council of europe )committee of which FFoulkes is a member as follows :
"To:ivi-triin.odrats@coe.int
Tue, 25 Aug at 13:56
Dear Ivi-Triin Odrats,
Good afternoon from Edinburgh!
I wonder whether you can provide some detail, please, on the proposed Inquiry into Football in Europe that is to be led by Lord FFoulkes?
Yours in the European ideal,
(me)"
So far, no reply.
And there is such a person!
Ivi-Triin Odrats – Committee Secretary – Parliamentary …
https://fr.linkedin.com/in/ivi-triin-odrats-317b6a27
paddy malarkey 25th August 2020 at 21:58
Let the whatabootery begin .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53913896
==========================================
It is madness to allow supporters back into football stadiums just now.
What message is that sending out.
It's not just about controlling the people going to the games, or what they do in the stadium, or how they get away from it. It's about people thinking that things are getting back to normal way too early.
Celtic are wrong doing this. Hopefully the Scottish Government will not allow it.
John Clark 22nd August 2020 at 09:05
Separately, on Tuesday 26th, there are procedural hearings in the Whitehouse and Clark cases.
I hope to get the access code which will let me follow the ‘virtual’ procedure live on the phone.
…………….
Tuesday was the 25. Wed is the 26. Did you miss it JC? or is it today?
Cluster One 26th August 2020 at 09:28
"Tuesday was the 25. Wed is the 26. Did you miss it JC? or is it today?"
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I think I made a hames of things,Cluster One. I thought it was yesterday, and that I missed it. When I saw your post ten mins ago I checked the Rolls, and lo and behold this is what is there
"Wednesday 26th August
Procedural Hearings
Between 9.00am and 10.00am
CA9/20 David Whitehouse v The Chief Constable of Scotland &c "
I tried to explore how to get the access code, but couldn't find how to do that, (On the previous occasion the access code had been given to me by someone else.
The case might not, of course, have been deemed worthy of of access by the public, seeing as it was only 'Procedural' business.
I'll try to phone the Scottish Courts and tribunal service to find out.
I'm sure it's just coincidence that the DR is today leading with a story about Craig Whyte being investigated by the Police – following a "DR investigation"…
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/former-rangers-administrators-continue-court-22578274
…………
Today then JC.
My post of 10.05 this morning refers.
I should have read the pages more diligently.
See this link, from which I conclude that the Whitehouse business would not have on 'virtual'.
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/coming-to-court/public-access-to-a-virtual-hearing
John
Did you access?
Big Pink 26th August 2020 at 11:18
'..Did you access?'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
No: I was too late this morning trying to find how to access the access code!
So I emailed the SCTS to ask 'how to': I got a pleasantly informal addressed reply an hour ago the salient bit being:
"Most Court of Session cases are being heard virtually. If you are interested in requesting access to a specific case please email onlinehearingaccess@scotcourts.gov.uk with case details including, if possible, the Court; date; case name and the clerk. Case information is available on the court rolls on the courts website."
I've made a note of that email address!
The Celtic request to have a limited number of fans at the game this weekend has apparently been rejected.
It's a good decision in my opinion, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. There is too much of a risk of spreading the infection and it reinforces the wrong message to an element of the public.
Football and football supporters cannot be trusted to deal with this properly.
That's to say nothing of the inherent unfairness if Motherwell were not also allowed to have supporters (apologies if that was the plan).
H, agreed.
On the face of it, this CFC request seemed ill-judged / timed.
Scottish football should be keeping its head down for the duration.
IMO, it didn’t deserve special dispensation from the SG in the first place to play games – before other sports/leisure pursuits.
After the AFC and CFC player embarrassments, all the clubs should just focus on keeping their players in check – and meeting their TV deals’ obligations, IMO.
On the Castore situation with the Rangers support.
It seems that all of the male replica home kit were made in Turkey. The away and female kit was made in China. The latter is of a far higher standard, both in materials and production.
Everyone including the support, the club and Castore is now aware of this. Though Castore appear to be just blanking it and coming up with cock and bull stories.
The astonishing thing is that the club are still selling them in the shop at Ibrox, and people are buying them.
One can't help but think, you are being treated the way you deserve if you are being this daft. They will keep selling you sub standard goods if you just accept it.
" TWO Rangers administrators have been awarded £600,000 damages after the Crown Office admitted their arrests were "malicious".
Duff and Phelps partners David Whitehouse and Paul Clark were arrested after the Ibrox club plunged into liquidation in 2012.
Mr Whitehouse was charged in connection with Craig Whyte's takeover of Rangers a year earlier.
The Crown Office has now admitted the case against them was unlawful and "motivated by malice".
The two men are seeking a total of £14m from Police Scotland and the Crown.
Judge Lord Tyre ordered them to hand over £350,000 to Whitehouse and £250,000 to his colleague Clark.
It comes after the Lord Advocate’s lawyer Gerry Moynihan QC admitted that every stage of the prosecution of the pair following their first court appearance was unlawful.
Lawyers said that the human rights of both administrators had been breached during the probe.
The court heard that the businessmen’s legal teams have been supplied with documents which show senior Crown Office lawyers speaking about the “need to nail the Duff & Phelps people”.
Whitehouse's lawyer Roddy Dunlop QC told the court his client had spent an “eye watering” £1.8 million on the case.
He said: "It is nothing short of a disgrace that the government has chosen to act in this fashion towards two private citizens.
“It is only through the determination of Mr Clark and Mr Whitehouse to clear their names that we have got to this point.
“The bottom line here is that less wealthy people could never have got to this point. In my submission some award has to be made in this case.”
And Paul Clark’s lawyer said the matter was “nothing short” of a disgrace.
Lord Tyre ordered the interim payment to be made after the Duff and Phelps partners won their case.
Billy Boyce 26th August 2020 at 15:34
Thanks for your post about the Administrators' win.
If only ra polis could have been persuaded to investigate one or two other football matters as diligently as they wasted their time chasing those two!
Homunculus 26th August 2020 at 13:44
Football and football supporters cannot be trusted to deal with this properly.
That's to say nothing of the inherent unfairness if Motherwell were not also allowed to have supporters (apologies if that was the plan).
————————————————————————-
I think the new normal is that football clubs and supporters will have to accept an inherent unfairness in not having visiting fans at games for some time.
It has to be baby steps, and allowing large groups of people from other areas to travel to other towns and cities should be well down the line in any plan to reintroduce fans to stadiums.
If we are anywhere near getting fans into stadiums by the end of October I am hoping the SFA are looking at a plan B to use Murrayfield for the Hibs v Hearts Scottish Cup semi. What reason would there be for having folk from Edinburgh needlessly travelling through to Glasgow in the current circumstances?
Billy Boyce 26th August 2020 at 15:34
The court heard that the businessmen’s legal teams have been supplied with documents which show senior Crown Office lawyers speaking about the “need to nail the Duff & Phelps people”.
…………….
Oh Dear. senior Crown Office lawyers.
Let that sink in for a minute….
senior Crown Office lawyers. Should have removed the blue tinted spectacles.
Is it any wonder Imran Ahmad knew not to return to scotland to answer questions.
Billy Boyce 26th August 2020 at 15:34
===========================================
The thing is, they were clearly both up to their necks in it.
The Police have made an absolute mess of this and Crown Office haven't been much better.
Everyone who has been investigated has walked away from it.
Homunculus @ 18.83.
These are genuine questions. Not in any way trying to be provocative but as an innocent bystander just asking?
The thing is, they were clearly both up to their necks in it.
In what?
The Police have made an absolute mess of this and Crown Office haven't been much better.
What were the Police trying to do? A deliberate mess? COPFS ??
Everyone who has been investigated has walked away from it.
Surely everyone who has been charged/investigated has been admonished/found not guilty?
I'm confused. com!!
Sometimes we talk on here about a certain club having supporters
who are gullible. Well Mr Lennon the have a go at my players story
will not wash. He is inept as a manager. But to try to fool your own
fans with this nonsense is a disgrace. The heat is not on the players
Mr Lennon. The heat is on you.
For anyone who maybe interested. I still have not had a reply back regarding
my complaint about the BBC to Offcom. I send emails to them they do not reply.
Head banging on a brick wall. Something just not right. Citizens rights yes right.
Looking at the reporting about the malicious prosecution against ex-rangers administrators Paul Clark and David Whitehouse.
Feb 2012.
Rangers plunged into Administration over the non payment of £9mill in PAYE and VAT . Duff &Phelps are appointed as Administratiors.
June 2012.
Charles Green buys the clubs assets.
July 2012.
Gers admitted to the Third Division.
October 2012.
Rangers are Liquidated on Halloween.
……
Not bad. Not one mythical holding company mentioned.
watcher 27th August 2020 at 14:42
For anyone who maybe interested. I still have not had a reply back regarding
my complaint about the BBC to Offcom.
……….
Who do, or do you know if you can raise a complaint against offcom.for their refusal to reply to your emails?
Cluster One thanks for that, no I am not sure what to do now I will try
a letter and send it special delivery to see what happens.
watcher 27th August 2020 at 17:03
………………
JC May be able to point you in the right direction with that.
Cluster One 27th August 2020 at 16:19
…………
Oh well. Nothing ever lasts forever.
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1299048805359288330/photo/1
macfurgly 25th August 2020 at 23:15
'..What’s the source?
I can’t find anything on their web pages.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
You might be interested in this, macfurgly:
I received this reply from the Council of Europe Committee to my query about Lord Ffoulkes' upcoming inquiry into 'Football in Europe':( sadly , not from Ms Ivi-Triin Odrats!)
"FASINO Roberto <roberto.fasino@coe.int> Thu, 27 Aug at 15:10
Dear Mr ….
Thank you for your mail.
Lord Foulkes has been appointed rapporteur on “Football governance: business and values” and his currently preparing his report on this subject. Preparatory work and working documents are restricted and we cannot really provide information on our ongoing work.
However, basic information has already been made public by the rapporteur himself. In this respect, please find attached a link with a recent article posted by “The Scotsman”:
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/former-hearts-chairman-george-foulkes-lead-inquiry-running-european-football-2951325
I hope this will be helpful to you
Best regards,
Roberto Fasino
Head of Secretariat, Committee on Culture, Science, Education and Media
Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe
And my reply (this evening)
Dear Mr Fasino,
I'm extremely grateful for your reply.
I had actually seen the article in "The Scotsman" , but it was not attributed to any 'source'- and when it comes to newspaper journalism in Scotland, I have found that it can be useful to check the provenance of any story!
When I checked the P.A.C.E website I could find no reference to Lord Ffoulke's projected 'Football Inquiry', so I thought I had better check by emailing.
Grazie tanto, .."
me
Slight aside…
Is the 'rookie, Ibrox PR guru' doing a bit of moonlighting?
That lad Maguire of ManU / England just continues to keep digging a hole for himself, and his 'story' changes on an hourly basis, it seems!
watcher 27th August 2020 at 14:42
‘…I still have not had a reply back regarding
my complaint about the BBC to Offcom. I send emails to them they do not reply.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
It’s a bit much if Ofcom don’t reply!
The email address of the OfCom director in Scotland is : glenn.preston@ofcom.org.uk
If you are sure that your emails were sent, and that there has been no reply that found its way into your spam box or whatever, why don’t you send him a simple, polite wee email telling him that your emails are not being acknowledged let alone answered, and asking whether he can do anything about it?
He (probably) won’t see your email himself, but one of his people will at least acknowledge it ,unless you’ve been a very bad boy and have been blacklisted! [ no, as a public body they cannot really or easily do that !]
If you don’t get a reasonable response within a reasonable time [ covid and all that] get your Westminster MP involved, by asking him/her to write on your behalf. That generally works.
( An experienced MP will get one of his office staff to fire off something like this:
‘ My constituent , ‘watcher’ of such and such an address, has told me that his emails to Ofcom are not even being acknowledged let alone substantively responded to.
I wonder would you be good enough to have the matter looked into , and let me know the result’
Such a letter ( or, these days, email) goes to the top of the heap! [ I know that, from personal experience as a chap who had often to deal with such letters from several MPs, and I don’t suppose that things have changed much in the years since]
John Clark 27th August 2020 at 21:38
macfurgly 25th August 2020 at 23:15
—————
Well done for getting a reply. It would appear that the PACE have started taking an interest in football and GF has been handed a seriously broad brief on the basis probably of his experience ay HMFC. Good luck with that one if UEFA, Man. City, PSG etc. are at odds with any recommendations. Worth a go I suppose, if they are serious.
StevieBC 27th August 2020 at 22:22
"Manchester United captain Harry Maguire told the BBC on Thursday that he feared for his life and thought he was being kidnapped as he was arrested by plainclothes police officers following a fracas on the Greek island of Mykonos."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Well, I ask, plainclothes polis attending a pub fight? Not hardly, (as John Wayne said a few times in some movie-was it 'True Grit'?)
I think I wouldn't be too ready to believe that!
But perhaps I'm too inclined to believe that the concept of 'policing by public consent ' is not terribly well understood on the 'Continent'.
That is, there is no notion of 'the friendly bobby' or 'if you want to know the time ask a policeman'.
And if guys in suits/tracky bottoms/jeans/ football tops or whatever turned up to deal with a pub fight and tried to 'arrest' me I think I might offer some resistance, even if they were shouting 'police!' in a foreign language ,or even in English!
We don't, and won't get to, know the truth of Harry Maguire's situation;
any more than we will get to know the full truth about the 'Rangers' saga and the cheating, lying sods in Scottish Football governance until, perhaps, the guilty sods are mouldering in their dishonourable graves, while panegyrics are uttered about how true and respectable and worthy persons they were and how faithfully and honestly they discharged their offices as guardians of the integrity of Scottish Football!
Makes me boke ( how do you spell that word?) to think of the crap that will appear in the 'obituaries' of those men! Fearful, timid, cowed weaklings without any sense of principle who failed to discharge their bounden duties and allowed the most monstrous sporting lie to be created, fostered and propagated.
Even now.
Aug 27, 2020
https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/crown-admits-malicious-prosecution-of-rangers-administrators
……………………
Aug 28, 2020
https://www.lawscot.org.uk/news-and-events/legal-news/rangers-administrators-lord-advocate-admits-malice/
…………..
We move on to Jan 2021
bordersdon 26th August 2020 at 23:58
Homunculus @ 18.83.
These are genuine questions. Not in any way trying to be provocative but as an innocent bystander just asking?
The thing is, they were clearly both up to their necks in it.
In what?
The Police have made an absolute mess of this and Crown Office haven't been much better.
What were the Police trying to do? A deliberate mess? COPFS ??
Everyone who has been investigated has walked away from it.
Surely everyone who has been charged/investigated has been admonished/found not guilty?
I'm confused. com!!
===========================================
1, Just one part. They sold the assets of a business in administration, or at least made an irrevocable deal to do so, prior to the CVA failing. They did not maximise the available amount for those assets, when the assets were sold they were actually sold to an entirely different business. They even brought the man in who was going to buy thee prior to the CVA failure making decisions about what was going to happen.
That's to say nothing of the various documents and even recordings which were made public.
I believe they were involved in a flawed administration right from the start, with a view to wiping out the Rangers' debts. The original intention was through administration, however in the end they failed and the club is being liquidated. All they could do was get the bulk of the assets out prior to that liquidation process.
2, I have made no comment on whether it was a deliberate mess or not, I have no idea. They did make a mess of it though. If I remember correctly they carried out an illegal search, which was at the very least incompetent.
3, I believe a person is only admonished if they plead or are found guilty, it is basically a warning not to do it again.
With regards someone being found not guilty, people are often found not guilty of something they have clearly done. It is absolutely up to the Crown to prove that someone is guilty. If they make mistakes and the evidence they are relying on cannot be adduced then they are likely to fail. They also cannot lead evidence that is prejudicial, so if someone has a lot of previous convictions for a similar offence they cannot lead that to the jury.
If a prosecution does not go ahead it is because Crown Office have decided that they do not have enough admissible evidence to secure a conviction. Or a cynic may suggest that they really don't want a few things coming out in open Court which would cause either them or the Police serious embarrassment.
John Clark 27th August 2020 at 23:54
StevieBC 27th August 2020 at 22:22
…
But perhaps I’m too inclined to believe that the concept of ‘policing by public consent ‘ is not terribly well understood on the ‘Continent’…
==================
Ooft JC!
… on the day that the Crown Office admitted ‘maliciously’ prosecuting 2 citizens: I don’t know what to think about our very own criminal, legal system. 🙁
I did watch the Maguire interview – with the sound off.
He couldn’t look the interviewer in the eye, and constantly looked down and to the side.
He shrugged a lot.
Doesn’t mean he’s guilty as hell of course – and can’t help thinking that if SAF was still manager:
&
Re: the just announced development of Edmiston House.
Specific details of funding are not mentioned – but I'd hazard a guess that it's a partnership with a third party:
i.e. it's not an RIFC/TRFC generated development.
Mibbees another company set up with those providing the funding…?
[IIRC, does the Ibrox lawyer Blair have personal links to the ownership of Edmiston House?]
Homunculus @ 11.25
—————————————————————–
Thanks for your further thoughts on this. I am still mystified why the police made such a hash of things (eg illegal search) and why the COPFS, in spite of the obvious weaknesses, decided to proceed leading to the humiliating apologies by the Lord Advocate!
On the relationship between the Crown Office and the Police, I give you an extract from a speech[ "The Apex Scotland Annual Lecture by the Lord Advocate, James Wolffe QC on 5 September 2017.] in which the speaker , in describing that relationship, quotes Lord Gill (former Lord President):
"Lord Gill summarised this in the following terms: “In the Scottish system of criminal investigation, the procurator fiscal directs the investigation and not the police. In the early stages of an investigation, the police almost always act on their own initiative; but it is their duty to report on their investigation to the procurator fiscal and to act upon his further instructions.”
It now transpires that "the Lord Advocate has now admitted that the Crown, under his predecessor Frank Mulholland QC, acted unlawfully during a substantial part of the proceedings"
I find it puzzling, therefore, that "Police Scotland has made no similar admission"
That would suggest that the Police believe and can substantiate that belief that all the actions they took in investigating and collecting evidence as to the facts relating to an alleged crime or crimes were wholly legitimate, and taken under the direction of the Crown Office: no malice here, mate!
Intriguing.
John Clark 28th August 2020 at 16:19
================================
Or they have decided to make no comment at this stage as the Chief Constable is also being sued.
StevieBC 28th August 2020 at 14:33
‘..[IIRC, does the Ibrox lawyer Blair have personal links to the ownership of Edmiston House?]
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
A wee look at Companies House info:
Edmiston House Community Interest Company was incorporated on 20 November 2015, number SC520806
Its community interest statement has this:
” The Company’s activities will provide benefit to supporters and followers of The Rangers Football Club, Glasgow, by financing, or part financing the refurbishment and redevelopment of the subjects known as Edmiston House and other subjects within the vicinity of Ibrox Stadium…..This will benefit the community by saving an unused building that is falling into a state of disrepair from becoming derelict. This benefits the community as the renovated building becomes a local amenity, and improves the appearance of the local area for residents.
While the restoration is ongoing, jobs will be created as firms are engaged to carry out the upgrading and redecoration of the building…”
The statement is signed by one Robert Marshall, and the point of contact is one James Blair of Anderson Strathearn.”
The company submitted ‘accounts for dormant company’ on 02 September 2019, and on 06 January 2020 there was a ‘confirmation’ statement, with no updates.
One Greg Robertson Marshall is a person with significant control. He appears to be the only Director.
A point of contact for Companies House is James Blair, of Anderson Strathearn LLP (Edinburgh).
Of course, a community interest company is a ‘not-for-profit ‘enterprise. If the Company makes any surplus funds these, it says, will be donated to the Rangers Former Players Benevolent Club.
It is all fairly ordinary , but I wonder: does ‘refurbishment and redevelopment’ include ‘demolition’?
Thanks for that JC: I vaguely remember that there was discussion on SFM a while ago about this 'CIC' entity.
I thought they were going to use the publicly owned space across the road from the stadium, (for which they are paying peppercorn rent), as a fans' zone.
John Clark 28th August 2020 at 17:28
I suspect those are Robert Marshall, who owns The Louden Pub and his son Greg who is employed by Rangers as their Supporters Liaison Officer.
The club have apparently submitted their plans for demolition of the building.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-unveil-new-ibrox-fan-22593194
“The club are moving forward with plans to demolish Edmiston House, which sits behind the Copland Road stand.”
Homunculus 28th August 2020 at 18:17
‘..I suspect those are Robert Marshall, who owns The Louden Pub and his son Greg who is employed by Rangers as their Supporters Liaison Officer’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Thanks for that piece of info, Homunculus .
Looking at the Edmiston C.I.C’s Articles of Association we see this :
Objects, Powers and Limitation of Liability
Powers
As said before, I have never been in business and am not particularly clever: but applying my brain ( I am nota ‘bear’ like Winnie the Pooh, but I may be of ‘very little brain!’) as best I can I conclude this: The Edmiston CIC, under its Director(s) (who will of course be remunerated) can borrow money from anyone or any institution prepared to lend to it.
Would it be safe to speculate that the owner of the Louden bar might be a lender, on terms that include the rights to run such commercial operations as are carried out in the new premises and/or share (with other lenders) in the revenue brought in by the new facilities outlined in the statement– fanzone, concert venue and what-not?
I don’t imagine that that revenue would need to go to the Rangers Former Players benevolent company??
( I’m not having a go at ‘Rangers’ here: just genuinely curious as to how all that kind of thing works: who actually funds the demolition/refurbishment and who gets the ki pay-back?)
There must be a David Low type out there who could explain how these things work?
Homunculus 28th August 2020 at 18:17
John Clark 28th August 2020 at 17:28
……..
I take it the Close Brothers loan has been paid of as they held security over Edmiston house.
The Borrower will not. C. make directly or indirectly make application for planning permission in relation to the property or any part of it or.
" It is certainly reassuring that the Scottish courts have enough independence to allow a case against the head of the legal service, who is also a member of the Scottish Government and the First Minister's Cabinet ,and only now after eight years has the truth begun to emerge"
(from a piece in the 'Scotsman' today by John McLellan [former editor of 'The Scotsman" and Scottish Conservative Party media chief:]about the Crown Office's 'malicious prosecution' admission)
How good and right it would be if Scottish Football after 8 years of fostering and supporting the Big Lie that TRFC is RFC of 1872 would acknowledge their Big Lie, and take the necessary steps to restore truth and trust in the governance of the Sport.
[ McLellan speculates that the Crown Office admission was made is 'so that they could mediate an out-of-court settlement which would no doubt come with non-disclosure agreements.' ]
Cluster One 29th August 2020 at 10:40
'.I take it the Close Brothers loan has been paid of as they held security over Edmiston house.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Yes, Cluster One: that charge seems to have been satisfied as far back as 15th October 2018.
"Charge codeSC42 5159 0012
"Additional transactions filed against this charge
Type
Satisfaction of a charge (MR04)15 October 2018 View PDFfor Satisfaction of a charge (MR04) (1 page)"
Unless I missed it…
after the humiliating admission by the Crown Office to 'maliciously prosecuting' two individuals,
I've not read of any firings / resignations / suspensions at either the Crown Office or at Police Scotland.
To admit such incompetence and/or corruption in a Court of law would have been preceded by extremely, lengthy discussions.
Likewise, you would think that a suitable resignation(s) would have been announced immediately after that Court hearing?
It gives the impression that those responsible are still in positions of power – and potentially able to repeat their mistakes on other citizens.
Presumably there will be an inquiry – which will publish its report in a few years time…
The whole thing stinks.
StevieBC 29th August 2020 at 12:45
It's hardly a reliable source, but there are some quotes.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4632178/rangers-fraud-billy-boys-sectarian/
I'm guessing that if he, or anyone else, had been sacked over this it would have made the news.
John Clark 29th August 2020 at 11:42
Cluster One 29th August 2020 at 10:40
This does not yet appear to have been satisfied and clause 6.4 indicates permission needs to be granted by Close Bros for any planning application/development proposal to go forward.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC425159/filing-history/MzIyODM3MDI4NWFkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0
The commentator on BBC Radio Scotland just mentioned that Rangers went into 'administration'. Is it BBC policy not to say 'liquidation'?
gunnerb 29th August 2020 at 17:10
'edmiston house 'charge'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Thank you for the correction, an important correction, gunnerb.
I had gone straight to look at the 'satisfied' charges and saw that Edmiston House had had a 'charge' on it in 2018 [charge ..12} which had indeed been satisfied.
It never occurred to me to think that TRFC borrowed from Close Bros again in 2019 putting the same assets in hock ( a bit like me taking my dad's good suit to the pawnshop more than once!!)
(
jimbo 29th August 2020 at 18:54
“The commentator on BBC Radio Scotland just mentioned that Rangers went into ‘administration’. Is it BBC policy not to say ‘liquidation’?”
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Yes, it is.
The BBC were ordered by the then BBC Trust not to use language which would suggest that Rangers FC plc had had to surrender its share in the then SPL , and thereby lost its membership of the SFA and its entitlement to participate in Scottish professional football.
It is an absolute truth that Rangers Football Club plc went into Administration and never came out of it. It went into Liquidation, where it still is.
To their eternal shame the BBC hierarchy knuckled under to orders .
They shouted the Pacific Quay equivalent of ‘Jawohl, mein Führer’, collectively clicked their heels and immediately set about fostering and propagating the manifestly absurd lie created by the 5-Way Agreement, and ordering ( under pain of disciplinary procedures ) that none of their sports commentators should ever mention the fact that RFC plc no longer existed ( as even James Traynor headlined) because it had entered Liquidation, or even discuss or allow discussion as to whether TRFC of 2012 foundation could be entitled to market itself (falsely) as being 140 years older than it actually is.
Currently, on BBC radio 4, the political analysts and commentators make much of Donald Trump as being a liar.
If they looked at the crew in Pacific Quay they would see that many of their colleagues are more dangerous liars than any Trump.
Trump is, as a politician, kind of expected to lie.
The BBC is not expected to lie, or help others to lie.
Especially not in a matter helping a new football club live a sporting lie.
What might such people NOT do when ordered to lie about really fundamental matters? The same as their counterparts in totalitarian or would-be totalitarian states?
What else, but do what they’re told, regardless of how untrue?
Maintanance and repair
After writing a long post and my comment appears to be spam and i deleated the whole thing by mistake.
gunnerb 29th August 2020 at 17:10
John Clark 29th August 2020 at 11:42
Cluster One 29th August 2020 at 10:40
Feck…
It shall be an obligation to the debtor
To maintain the security subjects in good and sufficiant repair to the resonable satisfaction to the creditor.
…………..
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1299810480278646784/photo/1
……..
Are the ibrox club trying to pass off a makeover for an 8 year club 150 celebrations as a Newbuild for the celebrations and not just part of their obligations as a secured loan to maintain the security subjects in good and sufficiant repair to the resonable satisfaction to the creditor.
Looks like another con job from ibrox to me.
Cluster One 29th August 2020 at 22:28
‘..After writing a long post and my comment appears to be spam and i deleated the whole thing by mistake.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Join the club, Cluster One!
It’s a regular occurrence with me: one false key stroke and f..k it, you’ve got to start again!
As to your post, I simply assert that what we have is an eight year old football club trying desperately to claim the cachet of being the most whatever club of 1872 origins.
TRFC is , what, 8 years old. It did not exist prior to 2012.
Its ‘holding company’, RIFC plc, knows, I believe, that it went to the market on an absolutely misleading Prospectus.
It is desperate, absolutely desperate, that its pretence to be the Rangers of my grandfather’s day should be accepted by more than the lying BBC and the SMSM generally.
And I suggest that the majority of those who were supporters of the Rangers of my grandfather’s day know that there is no such thing as ‘continuity Rangers’.
Jabba, for one, told them that on Liquidation day!
The BBC is merely an establishment mouthpiece. Any reasonable and moderately intelligent person, of whatever colour, creed or politics could easily discern that there are actual lies being propagated via the national broadcaster’s airwaves when it comes to Rangers, the Scottish government and Jeremy Corbyn.
From a football perspective, the lie is much harder to sell, since it is delivered defensively from the back foot, and only Rangers fans have an interest in buying into it.
In the case of the other, more existential examples, lies are delivered in attack mode. Much easier to sell.
In any case, we don’t need a stance which necessarily reinforces our own narrative. Just the bloody truth, and more importantly, the WHOLE truth.
The BBC will never deliver that. There was a time I believed they did. I was mistaken.
John Clark 30th August 2020 at 00:07
Join the club, Cluster One!
It’s a regular occurrence with me: one false key stroke and f..k it, you’ve got to start again!
……………….
Having a small refreshment never helps the cause either.
Big Pink 30th August 2020 at 10:50
They really only need the Rangers support to "buy into it", or at least pretend to themselves that they believe the lies. That is where the money and the support comes from.
In fact there is an argument to suggest that other people not doing so is helpful, as it builds an "everyone else is against is" mentality.
After this amount of time has passed attitudes are pretty much entrenched. People believe (or choose to believe) what they, or the group they associate with, believe. It is too far down the line for most people to change.
The next generation, for the most part, will believe what they are raised to believe. Few will do their own research and go against the grain.
You may be correct Homunculus, but if so, that is a pretty blinkered view of the world they hold.
I agree it is annoying to hear fantasy repeated as truth, but it is far more annoying to hear folk insistently and relentlessly challenge the fantasy.
There are no winners in that discourse, only the irritation of those who know the truth, and the outrage of those who need the Earth to be flat.
Big Pink 30th August 2020 at 21:14
It is interesting that you use the example of people needing the Earth to be flat.
I think this quote is an interesting and relevant one.
"Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe"
Homunculus 31st August 2020 at 12:13
"Flat-Earthers seem to have a very low standard of evidence for what they want to believe but an impossibly high standard of evidence for what they don’t want to believe"
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
And ,of course, some people know the truth but consciously lie!
Football punters who lie are one thing:
governance bodies and national broadcasters which lie are quite another, far more pernicious matter!
Big Pink @ 10.50 et al
“The BBC is merely an establishment mouthpiece…”
… and the rest of the Scottish media and establishments, which are driven by a century old (try 16th) anti -Catholic narrative (particularly vitriolic, in more recent times, via The Church of Scotland in the 1920s) – which, in spite of the odd inclusion tokenism wheeled out under the (dis)guise of tolerance and equality, will never change.
I accept that (although I do hope that the Res 12 guys will prevail regarding the football side of things, and believe that the Sevco financial ‘**** will really hit the fan’ should Celtic win 10IAR).
On their role in the WATP supremacy ideology, the BBC and others views are not, in their eyes (!) blinkered – as they have 20/20 vision.
However, on a more optimistic note regarding a fairer (Scottish) society, as my Latin teacher (Tam Lavelle) would say:-
“Dum Spiro Spero”
bect67 @ 14.55
—————————————————–
Oh dearie me! No wonder most of the non Celtic posters have deserted this site?
I would also love the RES 12 guys to prevail but Celtic PLC will not let that happen! And more importantly I would love to see all clubs, the BB feckin C, the SMSM et al recognise that the Rangers of old are no more but nae chance. Mammon prevails!
Whether CFC win 10IAR or TRFC* win 1IAR I really don't care because as I have said many many times Scottish football as a competition has been fecked for many years and I see no way out of it. Back to Mammon I guess!
Bordersdon
I share your frustration, although I’m not so sure that shoehorning a wider conspiracy into the Duff and Phelps case does any more than raise the odd eyebrow.
The competition issue to which you refer is real though. The problem is that football is now a collection of self interested money making franchises and no longer the association of enthusiastic interdependent clubs seeking sporting competition.
I think we will get back to that someday, but not until the public are so sick of the monotony of the one or two horse race that the financial gravy train is derailed.
Then maybe sporting principles can be applied once more and measures put in place to make it impossible for the cycle to begin again.
bordersdon 31st August 2020 at 22:49
bect67 @ 14.55
That is a subject that is beyond belief to the people and appeals to they are is/as bad as each other brigade.
There are none so blind than those that will not see.
I suggest we on SFM start playing the man and not the ball in certain circumstances …makes me so sad to say this.
an athiest
Bordersdon,
I think you may have a good point there. Celtic could have beaten Ferencvaros if Lennon had sent his mam on.
OK, I I'll get my coat of many colours.
I think most people probably saw this coming.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18689137.ex-rangers-ceo-charles-green-seeks-damages-significant-losses-fraud-prosecution/
FORMER Rangers chief executive Charles Green is to pursue "significant losses" after Scotland's most senior law officer admitted malicious prosecution of the former administrators of Rangers in connection with the collapsed club fraud case.
Mr Green says the public apology will come from the Lord Advocate claiming he too should never have been prosecuted.
A letter sent to Mr Green’s solicitors, Jones Whyte LLP of Glasgow, adds that damages will be paid.
The letter is addressed to Jones Whyte and is from The Scottish Government Legal Directorate, Litigation Division.
It is headed 'Charles Green v The Chief Constable. Police Scotland and the Lord Advocate.'
…
Homunculus 1st September 2020 at 12:58
I think most people probably saw this coming.
…………….
Only the ones paying attention.
The ibrox fan base were lead to believe the right one’s were caught and would pay for the death of their club. But one by one they all walk away with millions, and with each one that is granted an apology and compensation, who do the ibrox fan base look to for the cause of death of their club?
Cluster One 1st September 2020 at 19:32
====================================
Some of the theories are bonkers, though I think a few realise it was just poor work by Police Scotland and Crown Office.
Apparently if HMRC had just accepted what they were offered in the first place then none of this would have happened and everyone would be better off.
It's like an exercise in missing the point.
The late Lord Denning , I remember, once said something about it being better that innocent men should be convicted than that the judicial processes should be questioned.
Perhaps ( and here I amuse myself, idly speculating on no basis whatsoever) there could ,conceivably and philosophically speaking ,be some people who would espouse as a principle that it is better that the public purse pay the fortunes in damages occasioned by the engineering of the collapse of cases rather than that the civil polity be disturbed by possibly guilty men actually being found guilty, when there would be no chance of 'non-disclosure' agreements?
Naw, that couldn't happen; not in this country.
I for one believe that the goings on with Duff and Phelps, Sevco 5088 and Sevco Scotland all smelled a bit fishy.
However, I am also sure that Phil Mac's big hero 'General Ashley' will have pulled of similar wheezes in building his business empire which includes taking over distressed companies.
Why would one such cowboy be seen by some as a 'hero' and others playing the same kind of game as 'villians'?
The facts are however is that even if the administration and liquidation of Rangers doesn't feel right, no one from the Police, The Crown, the IPA has slam dunked any particular wrong doing.
As discussed on here not so long ago, something can come across as wholly wrong but still be, having undergone scrutiny, technically quite correct and acceptable in the eyes of the law or accepted practice.
Some lucky people will end up getting paid compensation, others will continue to collect a six figure salary.
It is still all very murky in the land Scottish Football.
The only sure thing is that Rangers were liquidated and as such the club died, but yet the footballing authorities have never had the gumption to tell the truth regards the status of the club currently playing at Ibrox.
wottpi 1st September 2020 at 22:45
“..The only sure thing is that Rangers were liquidated and as such the club died, but yet the footballing authorities have never had the gumption to tell the truth regards the status of the club currently playing at Ibrox”
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
And those are simple facts, not matters of opinion. That’s the killer truth.
I note incidentally that the new Head of the BBC , (not-yet ‘Sir’) Tim Davie “spent his first day meeting staff at BBC Scotland in Glasgow.” (“The Scotsman”, today)
In his message to all staff he said “….a BBC for all….ensure that we deliver outstanding and unique value…..To do this we will need to keep reforming the BBC with urgency so that we are trusted, relevant…We are an organisation that matters, and your work is admired for its creative brilliance, outstanding journalism….”
I shall presently send a wee message to Mr Davie informing him of the failure of Pacific Quay to tell the truth about the Big Lie that TRFC is Rangers of 1872,
its insistence on fostering that untruth
and its steadfast refusal to allow that ‘Lie’ to be discussed on air by those who might wish to have the matter exposed.
I will let him know that quite a substantial section of the BBC audience in Scotland believe that an organisation which is prepared to lie in a matter of ‘Sport’ ( for heaven’s sake!) are inclined to believe that it would lie in more serious matters.
And once caught out in a lie and the defence of a lie, an organisation is forever suspect.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bigoted-hearts-fan-hurled-sectarian-22614023
FFS
Whatever next?
HS
wottpi 1st September 2020 at 22:45
I don't know anyone who considers Mike Ashley a "hero", his business practices seem to be appalling.
John Clark at 10.18
You could also ask about using taxpayers money to pay EBT tax dodgers. The response I got is that BBC are happy to let people look after their own tax affairs.
Higgy's Shoes 2nd September 2020 at 11:04
'..Whatever next?'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"..Sheriff Peter McCormack asked if it was possible one of the horses was a mare and the abuse was intended for the animal. Yates said: “It was ambiguous.”"
Good God Almighty!
Tell me please they were joking!
From The Daily Mail;
“(English) Premier League clubs will vote on Thursday on a curtailment plan to be used to determine final league positions if subsequent seasons are abandoned, Sportsmail has learned. The top-flight clubs want clarity on the issue and a mechanism for deciding final standings to be written into the competition’s rules after controversy over curtailment threatened to derail Project Restart last season…”
==============
I believe that the SPFL management failed to get clubs to agree to it assuming additional covid-related powers recently.
However, if the season is stopped prematurely again, does the SPFL have any new / clearer rules to deal with it?
Or, will it be a repeat of the unseemly, public bunfight amongst clubs, the SPFL and SFA?
Paddy, a good point! I remember reading an article a few years ago about a lot of the high earning ‘celebrities’ working at the BBC are not employees and as such there is no income tax or N.I. deductions. They are left to deal with their own tax matters. If I remember correctly, not a few were using tax avoidance schemes. I think that is par for the course in those circles.
Hardly surprising then that BBC Radio Scotland Sports has got no problem hiring EBT recipients as pundits!
StevieBC I think you know the answer to that. Prepare for a bunfight!
Homunculus 1st September 2020 at 21:03
Apparently if HMRC had just accepted what they were offered in the first place then none of this would have happened and everyone would be better off.
…………..
If only the ibrox club had accepted HMRCs offer at the start, none of this would have happened and the ibrox club would have survived.
John Clark 2nd September 2020 at 10:18
I note incidentally that the new Head of the BBC , (not-yet ‘Sir’) Tim Davie “spent his first day meeting staff at BBC Scotland in Glasgow.” (“The Scotsman”, today)
In his message to all staff he said “….a BBC for all….ensure that we deliver outstanding and unique value…..To do this we will need to keep reforming the BBC with urgency so that we are trusted, relevant…We are an organisation that matters, and your work is admired for its creative brilliance, outstanding journalism….”
……………….
Chris McLaughlin Tweet testerday morning.
He should never have faced fraud charges relating to purchase of ibrox club.
…
Chris McLaughlin Tweet later that evening.
He should never have been prosecuted on fraud charges relating to the purchase of rangers assets back in 2012.
……..
Maybe the new Head of the BBC words had an effect.
Cluster One 2nd September 2020 at 14:48
'..Maybe the new Head of the BBC words had an effect.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Ha, ha!
If Davie's words could have such immediate effect, there would be a follow-up documentary by Mark Daly, showing how Scottish Football , after a reasonably honest start, sold its soul; and apologising to us all for the part the BBC played in aiding and abetting the fostering and propagation of a sporting untruth that was as wicked and damaging as it was ludicrous!
( I should, in scrupulous fairness, add that I understand that Chris McLaughlin was not 'yes-man' enough to avoid being the reason why the BBC is barred from Ibrox)
JC, I find it amazing that the BBC are still barred from Ibrox despite BBC Scotland's compliance with the 'continuity myth' !
paddy malarkey 2nd September 2020 at 12:40
"John Clark at 10.18
You could also ask about using taxpayers money to pay EBT tax dodgers. The response I got is that BBC are happy to let people look after their own tax affairs."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
A reminder of that dodge by well-known BBC staffers and freelancers :
'BBC to pay out millions to settle historic tax avoidance claims'
https://www.taxwatchuk.org/bbc-tax_avoidance/
Off Topic. Although mostly a lurker, I miss EJs contributions to the site. I can understand why he eventually gave up banging his head at the ending of last season. In terms of Hearts obviously.
But he is knowledgeable in so much more than that and could still contribute.
I am a Celtic supporter but that is not to say I was not sympathetic or empathetic at times with his views.
If the BBC are still barred from Ibrox then surely TRFC are in breach of the SPFL contract with the BBC, therefore should not receive any of the monies from distributed from the BBC
Also the BBC should cease from broadcasting or publicising any news, etc. from TRFC
I wonder how that would go down with the Ibrox faithful and indeed the RFC biased staff with the BBC ?
Someone from the SPFL should show some bottle and remind TRFC they have contractual obligations to them, and if they don’t fulfil them there will be penalties
Menace, yes you are correct, the BBC are half hearted on their part in the 'not talking to each other' impasse. Continually updating during games, displaying quotes from SG etc.
Contemplating a rainy Wednesday night in September. In Scotland. Just food for thought. Nothing mischievous although very much bereft of research…
Aberdeen FC and Celtic FC’s management team haven’t had their troubles to seek. Both face a fixture backlog; albeit Celtic are much more troubled with this, given the stakes, but less so given their depth of squad.
I proffer a solution lost. The ‘game in hand ‘should’ve and ‘could’ve’ been played this evening.
The rules? Aberdeen don’t field ‘the 8’ and Celtic dig deep into their squad in the absence of their international call-ups and the suspended Bolingoli (obviously).
If that didn’t ‘square the circle’, I can’t foresee a better way to neutralise an otherwise infinite claim of injustice. Not without the philosophers stone or, at least without a compass, moral or otherwise.
10 must be binary. Regardless of whether it equals 4 x 3.
I’m away back to the weather on the West coast….
Just a reminder. – The BBC is not barred from Ibrox, only the one BBC employee. It is BBC who say that if he is barred then they will send no-one until that is withdrawn.
Then followed the decision that the BBC were not allowed interviews if they did not cover the games.
Mickey Edwards 3rd September 2020 at 09:16
“..Just a reminder. – The BBC is not barred from Ibrox, only the one BBC employee. It is BBC who say that if he is barred then they will send no-one until that is withdrawn.”
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
When it comes to matters of fundamental principle there can be no selectivity as to which principles are to be defended and which ignored and trump-led upon.
If the BBC adopts as a principle that no lying football club can dictate to them which BBC reporter will be sent to cover any news story, they should be ready to adhere to a more fundamental principle: that the BBC should itself insist on reporting and telling the truth about that lying football club, instead of fostering and propagating the Big and utterly absurd Lie at the very heart of it!
‘Press freedom’ is freedom to investigate and report on the truth, not freedom to sustain a Lie.
The BBC still gets ‘Nul points’, from me!
The BBC have been banned so many times from ibrox over the last years it is a wonder they just don’t tell the ibrox club to go take a hike. They would get less hastle if they just cut all ties with the club.Would not worry about a boycot, they have been there seen that. They might get another demonstration at the BBC studios, maybe more than 20 will turn up this time.
For an institution which has coined the phrase, “time to move on”, TRFC are very reluctant to do so so.
Their problem is that they badly need as many ongoing causes célèbres as possible in order to deflect from the existential issues that have dogged them and the predecessor club for over ten years now.
Can’t see any detente breaking out any time soon on any of several fronts.
I hope this upcoming business is accessible and that I can get the access number:
“Friday 11th September
Continued Procedural Hearings
between 9.00am and 10.00am
CA9/20 David Whitehouse v The Chief Constable of Police Scotland &c A & WM Urquhart Ledingham Chalmers
CA10/20 Paul Clark v The Chief Constable of Police Scotland &c Kennedys Ledingham Chalmers LLP
Big Pink 3rd September 2020 at 20:43
".. TRFC are very reluctant to do so ….."
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I have some sympathy for them in so far as they are in the same situation as Shakespeare's Macbeth confessed himself to be: :" in blood Stepped in so far that, should I wade no more, Returning were as tedious as go o'er".
The only way forward for TRFC is to acknowledge the truth: that while the supporters of the liquidated RFC of 1872 transferred their undoubted loyalty to a new club which
uses the assets ( bought at fire-sale prices) that had belonged to the liquidated club
and which adopts the 'philosophy' and attitudes of the liquidated club,
the sporting history of the liquidated club could not and cannot meaningfully be transferred to the new club.
I imagine that the need to claim and pretend to be RFC of 1872 arose principally from the desire to float RIFC plc as being the holding company of 'the most successful club in the world" [no one could seriously have believed that the loyalty of the fans to a new 'Rangers' would have been at risk if the newness of TRFC had been admitted]
If they had had to tell investors that their investment would be in a brand new football club that hadn't kicked a ball (as, in my view, they ought legally to have done!) there was a risk that the flotation might have failed and no one would have made any money!)
So, the Prospectus for the IPO simply had to at least imply that all that had happened was little more than a change of ownership of the same club. There have been and are many examples of such in world football. And there's no problem with that.
But in fact nobody settled the debts and bought RFC out of Administration.
There was no new owner of RFC of 1872.
That was a problem, until the iniquitous 5-way Agreement, which was aimed at creating such a fudge of legal and sporting reality as to create a false sense of 'legitimacy' : the assertion was able to be made that the 'Football Authorities' recognise the new club as actually being the old club!
And so on and on and on, with the ASA and the BBC Trust and the SMSM , UEFA , the ECA and ( sadly) the FCA, taking the word of the SFA as the Football Governance body, the Guardian of the Sport in Scotland, that TRFC is 'continuity Rangers of 1872'!
( with Pacific Quay 'sieg heiling' with as smart a clicking of promotion-minding heels as ever there was at the Nuremberg rallies in the 1930s)
Eight years have passed since the iniquitous 5-Way Agreement.
Today, we have in effect a guilty club in our midst, and an even guiltier governance body.
Our game is therefore a charade.
Is there a way forward?
There is, of course.
But, like Macbeth, no one has the moral courage to take the first step on that way.
( But ,again in absolute fairness, Dave King has to be credited with acknowledging the fact that RFC of 1872 can still be bought out of Liquidation!
Where that would leave the SPL with two clubs having one share would be a wee problem, though )
John Clark 3rd September 2020 at 22:54
"Where that would leave the SPL with two clubs having one share would be a wee problem, though )
"
Oh were I to be a billionaire, like some "fine" men on the board of Celtic FC PLC, I would be only too happy to offer BDM a satisfactory sum to buy RFC PLC (now RFC 2012) out of liquidation.
I would then challenge the SFA/SPFL in court as to why "my" historic titles have been given to another club. Oh the joy, to see them squirming under oath trying to justify their actions and give credence to the 5-way confidence trick.
Why Desmond, O'Brien, Haughey et al, haven't pooled their resources to do just that is beyond me???
Unless of course, they are perfectly happy for their fans, as well as 40 other football clubs fans, to be stitched up this way……
normanbatesmumfc 4th September 2020 at 09:52
'..Unless of course, they are perfectly happy for their fans, as well as 40 other football clubs fans, to be stitched up this way……'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Well, the gentlemen you mention seem to have been happy enough not to have had the possibility that their club was cheated out of some millions of pounds even investigated!
A properly functioning a.se really does need two cheeks!
I suppose my moral compass, choosing "doing the right thing" before profit and my disposition of treating others as my equal, would disqualify me from joining any "billionaires club".
In other news, it would appear yet another fake transfer story has been rebuffed – Barisic £8m transfer to Leeds. This added to the Morelos to Lille, (and a dozen other clubs) and Kent to Leeds, where much needed inflated transfer figures are banded about, without any real bids forthcoming. Always followed by the player's apparent commitment to the Ibrox cause.
It all reads to me as a desperate attempt to get a large chunk of cash in pronto and Anyone Everyone is for sale….
normanbatesmumfc 4th September 2020 at 12:16
‘..It all reads to me as a desperate attempt to get a large chunk of cash in pronto and Anyone Everyone is for sale….’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
From the ‘Herald’
30th April
“Rangers freeze season ticket prices for 2020/21 campaign and extend application deadline”
By Matthew Lindsay @MattLindsayHT
“And the Liverpool and England great (Gerrard) confirmed the Ladbrokes Premiership outfit, who sold a record 47,000 season books last term, would not be asking for any more money from their regular followers.”
4th September “The Scotsman”,
by Andy Newport (Press Association)
” Supporters have bought up 46,500 season passes despite the current closed-door restrictions’
” Meanwhile, Rangers managing director Stewart Robertson has praised the club’s support after season tickets sold out once again’
Does anyone know the true number of season passes that it’s possible to sell? Has there been a reduction in capacity since April, or is one or the other ‘reporter’ a splendid example of the useless toss-pots who pass themselves of as journalists??
Or is it Robertson who’s a useless toss-pot of a managing director who doesn’t know the season ticket capacity?
normanbatesmumfc 4th September 2020 at 09:52
Why Desmond, O’Brien, Haughey et al, haven’t pooled their resources to do just that is beyond me???
……………
They would have to pay the Debt. The big tax the wee tax any oldco fines that were never paid. They would then have to find somewhere to play as their old place has someone else moved in they would then have to gather a playing squad and backroom staff. Then apply for membership to the league. Then any court cases that may arise to challenge the SFA/SPFL in court as to why “my” historic titles have been given to another club.
To much cost just so you could say that you own the club with the most trophies in scotland. And by the time you did all that Celtic would have overtaken you in the Trophy haul.
King had a stadium and a fan base and a compliant SFA, SPFL and media, but never had the money to bring the old club out of liquidation.
It seems that Scottish football will never “move on”.
As long as there is ‘a Rangers’ in the SPFL, that club will claim to be Rangers FC which died in 2012. The Ibrox fans will not accept anything resembling the truth.
The SFA & SPFL, (& the other, 41 clubs), have zero interest in revisiting 2012, and will continue to strain their collective brass necks to look the other way. They have ALL bought into the continuation lie.
IMO, the closest that non-TRFC supporters will get to any acknowledgment of wrongdoing is when Petrie and Doncaster have shuffled out of Hampden for the last time. Then, their successors ‘might’ try to play the PR game of blaming all the governance woes in 2012 on those 2 departed individuals. Under new management, let’s all “move on” now…
(Of course, this is additionally flawed in that the next SPFL and SFA leaders will be cut from exactly the same cloth as Petrie and Doncaster.)
IMO, the only way the game can move on from 2012 is literal.
Only if/when Scottish clubs are admitted to a cross border league – whether English or European – will the memories of 2012 begin to fade, IMO.
Scottish football has neither the ability – nor the will – to deal with the insidious fallout from the shameful governance decisions around 2012.
A question that may already have been answered some years ago : following the death of Rangers of 1872 which living club rightly claims to be the most successful football club in world football?
And are they content that an 8 year old club is allowed to claim that title?
I don’t think that the honour resides with RFC either John.
Pretty sure there is some Eastern European sides with more than 115 (I think that’s the number) trophies
StevieBC 4th September 2020 at 15:23
The Ibrox fans will not accept anything resembling the truth.
…………..
They all accepted the Truth in 2012. But they deny they accepted it.
John Clark 4th September 2020 at 18:45
……………….
Al Ahly from Egypt are the most decorated club with 118 Trophies. I don’t know if they claim to be the most successful football club in the world.Is being successful staying alive as a club? It may depend of what clubs look at as being successful. The ibrox club can claim to be whatever they want, does not make it true.
In the lower leagues of scottish football the ibrox club had banners to claim they were the most successful club in the world, but i don’t know if it was embarrasment that they were never seen again or after https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-rangers-football-club-ltd-a13-224406.html They thought we are trying to hard to convince, remembering that ASA allow IRN-BRU to claim it is made from Girders.
The whole successful thing was dropped and the banners removed.
I had occasion to have a look at this case (while listening to that rubbishy 1-1 draw).
It was an Appeal to the English Court of Appeal.
"The facts:
The link to the appeal case is
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2019/524.html
the case I was originally looking at was
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Vaswani-v-Hussain_-Judgement-30.7.20-APPROVED.pdf
in which a right chancer was sentenced to two (concurrent) jail sentences of 6 months for not honouring some undertakings he had made to the Court.
Someone we know was, I think, very favourably dealt with by the Court of Session and an easily satisfied FCA, eh, what?
Anyone know why we have added the nice red stripe to our blue and white strip .
Reminds me of socks we once wore in by gone days of yore.
Tim Davie, I note from this morning’s ‘Scotsman’, addressed the BBC staff in Cardiff. He is reported as saying that ‘renewing the BBC’s commitment to being impartial is the “number one priority”‘
He warned staff that if they wanted to be opinionated columnists or partisan campaigners on social media….they should not be working at the BBC.
He added ” Our research shows that too many perceive us to be shaped by a particular perspective”
I wonder if he made the same speech to the ‘liquidation deniers’ in Pacific Quay when he addressed them the other day?
Davie was referencing political partisanship.
However, impartiality is indivisible.
And there is absolutely no doubt that BBC Scotland has for the last 8 years steadfastly maintained the utter fiction that RFC of 1872 did not die as a football club, and has credited TRC with being the very same club as RFC of 1872.
Argue as much as they like that they are only obeying orders from above, the BBC in matters relating to Scottish Football has shown itself to be very definitely ‘shaped by a particular perspective’ on Scottish Football that has been and is as damaging as any ‘particular perspective’ on politics .
Remember, in the matter of the liquidation of RFC of 1872, there is no scope for differences of ‘opinion: it is an absolute fact that ‘Rangers Football Club plc’ is in liquidation.
It is a matter of fact that TRFC was newly admitted as a new club in 2012.
And those in ‘public’ positions who deny those facts are either as thick as two short planks or lying through their teeth. Some may be both.
And one does not get to work at any broadcasting level if one is as thick as even one short plank!
paraniodbyexperience 5th September 2020 at 00:10
Anyone know why we have added the nice red stripe to our blue and white strip…
====================
Don’t have a Scooby.
Must admit that I took no notice of the new kit launch in November.
But that is an interesting point you raise.
In my lifetime, I don’t remember red being included on the home top? (Apart from within the badge?).
The top looks like it has armbands on the sleeves.
The red over white stripes resembles the flag of Monaco, (initially thought it was Poland, but that’s white over red).
A cursory search with the SFA and generally, didn’t explain the inclusion of red on the top.
Not a very good-looking top anyway, IMO.
Stevie BC
In the late 60s, Rangers brought out a new step with the intertwined RFC on the breast. The change included red socks with white tops.
Being in the middle of the 9 in a row era, there were lots of crisis charts on TV and radio. On one such occasion, Willie Woodbury, a guest on Scotland Today or some such, opined that Rangers troubles were down to losing the black socks with red tops.
It was at that time the (probably erroneous) shaggy dog tale that the red tops at the knees were representative of spilled blood.
The shaggy dog tale was promoted heavily by both cheeks btw.
StevieBC 5th September 2020 at 18:01
'..The red over white stripes ..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I see it as a not so subtle move towards UK-ifying the Scotland national football team by dressing them in the colours of the Union flag, encouraging the world to persist in the belief that Scotland is really only just a part of England.
The SFA has, I think, already given the nod to letting players play for the GB team at the next Olympics.
Thanks for that BP.
Yes, changes to strips can become controversial – so why the SFA would mess with the top colouring is strange, IMO.
(I thought you were going to write that back in e.g. the early 1900's Scotland played in a top with red in it!)
And from confusing colouring to confusing, (exasperating), SMSM content.
I typically don't read anything Hugh Keevins writes – and his effort in today's DR quickly reminded me why.
This journalistic nugget jumped off the screen at me;
"Rangers believe there is a lack of proper governance at the SPFL…"
StevieBC 6th September 2020 at 11:20
“Rangers believe there is a lack of proper governance at the SPFL…” they want more placemen at the top. There fixed that for Hugh.
Cluster One 6th September 2020 at 14:55
'… they want more placemen at the top. There fixed that for Hugh.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Exactly so.
SDM 's hopes that the club he had , by his tax cheating, put at great risk, would somehow comfortably emerge from Administration, went agley.
Nobody bought the club out of Administration in order to carry on as before but wonderfully and gloriously free of the crushing weight of debt he had incurred!
And the club died the death of Liquidation.
It was then that the 'fix' went in.
The fiction was created that 'Rangers' did not die, and that a brand-newly created club was still the Rangers of 1872!
Such an absurdity! Such a perversion of truth!
and how disgusting that a governance body and Scottish Football generally should have been party , and continue to be party, to such nonsense.
And worse, that 'journalists' should have been party to the lie and give it support.
TRFC/RIFC plc are now plucking familiar strings on the lyre that is the SFA, emboldened by their success in thus far getting away with a monstrous lie.
Beginning of the end ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-54053618
So watched the Womens Football Show on BBC last night.
Some good stuff but two howlers from the defence of newly promoted Aston Villa against Man City.
Poor stuff that was frankly primary school level.
Not wanting to get involved in a debate regards abilities between men & women etc but it did get me thinking when I noted that the sponsor panel used at interviews had Barclay’s splashed all over it.
A quick Google and it appears the Women’s Super League have a £10m sponsorship deal over three years.
https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/fa-womens-super-league-barclays-sponsorship
I know some folk bemoan the quality of Scottish Football but it is surely of higher standard than the WSL and has one of the best support per head of population ratios in the world.
What is that guy getting paid £400k a year supposed to be doing for our game?
Even our last deal was only £2m per season when compared to the reported £3.3m per season for the WSL.
wottpi, totally agree that Doncaster has consistently undersold the TV rights.
BUT
I'd hold fire until we get the Scotland result tonight.
If Clarke can't secure a convincing win with his best team – against a ragtag collection of Czech players selected at extremely short notice,
then mibbees we should all just ditch men's football and watch the women instead? At least they qualify for the World Cup.
StevieBC 7th September 2020 at 17:35
'.If Clarke can't secure a convincing win with his best team ..'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I've just tuned in to Sportsound.
The pundits all a bit puzzled about Tierney's absence and the decision (apparently) to go with a back three. Billy Dodds in particular sounding a cautious note about underestimating the Czechs.
I'm inclined to agree that it might not be any kind of walkover tonight.
If Scotland doesn't win tonight, a headline in the DR tomorrow could be;
"Scotland stopped by dud Czechs!"
or
"Scotland Bounced by Czechs"
or
"Blanked Czechs cash in against Scotland"
or possibly
"Scotland takes advantage of blank Czechs"
etc.
"Scotland's Stolen Czech Relief"
(Didn't watch, but sounds like we got lucky.)
International week not good for chat is it??
Yesterday’s news from Westminster and jaw-dropping developments at the Assange trial underlining that the rule of law and justice is being lost in a wider domain than that of Scottish football. Voices like ours are being reduced to plaintiff cries across sport, the law, health policy, and elsewhere.
Those voices still need to be heard though, because underpinning this new post-truth normal is a compliant post-journalism media.
Big Pink 9th September 2020 at 08:07
” . Voices like ours are being reduced to plaintiff cries across sport, the law, health policy, and elsewhere.’
“””””””””””””””
I think the pits have been reached when the UK Prime Minister can blandly admit that his Government is deliberately going to break International Law in a little ‘technical ‘ way.
The British Government,of course, has a whole history of doing unpleasant things to people and peoples, but they generally made it ‘legal’ first, and claimed to be implementing the Law.
Buffoon Boris’ readiness openly to make light of ‘Law’ is quite a frightening development, betraying a cast of mind not far from that of Lukashenko and any number of despotically-minded toe-rag politicians in the world.
We all have a duty to ourselves to cry, ” here, haud oan a minute ,pal.’ in the face of untruth in governance of any kind: whether in international or domestic politics, or in local Government or in the fields of governance of the Arts and of Sport.
Some areas of life are clearly more important than others: a Boris or a Trump might actually kill you if their their political ravings and actions are given free expression.
The SFA can just about kill your sport and recreational pastime, by acting deceitfully and against the very concept of Sporting Integrity.
The failure of the Press to investigate and keep the lies of any and all ‘governance’ bodies in the spotlight may kill democracy itself.
The SMSM’s ready abetting and fostering of a ‘sporting’ lie does not provide any assurance that they would resist any manic illegal actions of the UK government.
BP, you're right: these international weeks seem to suck the life out of footy fans in Scotland!
In relation to SFM 'asking questions the media won't ask',
it speaks volumes that you have to watch a supposed 'enemy' state media – Russia Today – to get any detailed coverage of the Assange hearing.
Personally, I've just realised why we are all destined to become grumpy old men like Victor Meldrew.
As we get older, our opinions of those institutions we had perhaps held in high esteem – like government, the media, the BBC, the legal system, even democracy itself – are significantly changed, and not in a good way.
It probably happens with every generation?
With experience comes weariness and cynicism: the whole 2012 Rangers debacle was just a microcosm of the real UK we live in today.
And the SMSM was/is never going to publish the truth if it's problematic for some.
Today the burgeoning – and privatised – censorship of the internet is fast becoming a lost cause, IMO.
Maybe we'll have to go back to the original, manual printing presses to be able to share the truth in future?
With the SMSM being openly mocked over on Twitter land with their clickbait saga of the daily what club will be linked to Moralos this day.It shows that they have no shame.With the amount of laughs an article gets now, is looked on as better than any factual content and information that that article can deliver, The SMSM is near the end of it's life cycle. No one i know now buys a Newspaper, and why should they.
The hearing in the Whitehouse and Clark damages claim against the Chief Constable continues tomorrow.
If anyone is interested in listening to it live, full info is given on this link
https://scotcourts.gov.uk/coming-to-court/public-access-to-a-virtual-hearing
John Clark 10th September 2020 at 11:37
Thanks JC
On Saturday last , when I posted about the new Director-General of the BBC having visited both Glasgow and Cardiff to address staff, I suggested that I might write to him.
I have now done so for the sake of completeness. If I get a reply it will ,I expect, be along the same lines as before, about the BBC Trust having made a distinction between 'company' and 'club' and that it was the 'holding company' that died, not the transcendental spiritual essence of what constitutes a club!
If that kind of nonsense does come back, I will of course follow through with a rebuttal.
Here is the text of my letter, for the record.
"Mr Tim Davie CBE
Director-General,
British Broadcasting Corporation,
Brodcasting House, Peel Wing,
Portland Place,
London W1A1AA
Dear Mr Davie,
Let me first wish you well as you take up your appointment as Director-General of the BBC.
On 5th September, 'The Scotsman' reported that you had addressed staff in Broadcasting House, Cardiff on the previous day.
It reports that in your address you said that “…renewing the BBC's commitment to being impartial is the 'number one priority'” and that you “warned staff that if they wanted to be opinionated columnists or partisan campaigners on social media …they should not be working at the BBC” and that you added
“ Our research shows that too many perceive us to be shaped by a particular perspective”
May I say that, here in Scotland, many people do indeed believe that the BBC has a 'particular perspective' when it comes reporting on Scottish football matters.
It is the perspective, I believe, of a management too afraid to 'speak truth' which has for the past 8 years fostered and propagated a manifestly absurd sporting untruth , not just an 'opinion'!
That untruth is that a professional football club which was founded in 2012 and admitted for the first time into Scottish Football in 2012 is one and the same football club as a club that was founded in 1872 but which entered Liquidation ( having changed its name)in 2012, and is still in Liquidation even as I write.
You will know, I expect, that in 2012 when a professional football club in the then Scottish Premier League (SPL) suffered the insolvency event of 'Liquidation' it automatically lost its membership of that league, and, in consequence, lost its entitlement to membership of the Scottish FA , and thus ceased to exist as a playing entity in Scottish professional football.
I speak, of course, of the lie that The Rangers Football Club(TRFC), founded in 2012, is the Rangers Football Club that was founded in 1872.
BBC Scotland ( TV and Radio both) refuse to acknowledge the truth that Rangers of 1872 is 'In Liquidation' and that as a matter of 'sports' truth and commercial reality TRFC simply cannot be Rangers of 1872 .
They are prepared to sustain the myth that RFC of 1872 was bought out of administration by a new owner, and was thereby saved rom Liquidation.
A look at Companies House records will show the nonsense of that myth.
I call upon you to put an end to the propagation by your people in Pacific Quay of that myth as evidence of the sincerity of your words to your Cardiff staff.
Yours sincerely,
me "
I posted that letter by 'guaranteed delivery service' ( I doubt if I could face a six months hassle over 'non-received' mail such as I had with the FCA!) It should be received tomorrow, according to the post office chappie.
Well, here's to tomorrow's hearings in the Court of Session!
We have had Boris openly ready to break an International treaty for self-serving purposes.
We have a Crown Office owning up to 'malicious prosecution'. Why own up? So that a wee deal can be done to keep dirty washing out of public view?
What might be the 'dirty washing' and whose might it be?
And who is to be hung out to dry ( if anybody)?
Will we ever know?
Sadly, there are no Woodwards and Bernsteins in the SMSM who might try to find out.
The Rangers saga is not a simple football matter, not by a long chalk.
It runs very, very deep, I suspect.
John Clark, first off thank you for your help, sorry I did
not thank you earlier. Been busy. You certainly know how
to get a reply. I sent an e-mail to Mr Preston yesterday and
low and behold a reply today!! Unhappy with the outcome.
Here is his reply.
BBC News website, 10 December 2019, HMRC drops further £5m from Rangers tax claim
Thank you for your e-mail of 10 September 2020 , regarding the outcome of your complaint about the above item, which has been forwarded to the Ofcom Standards Team to respond.
In line with our published complaints procedures, Ofcom does not as a matter of course write back to individual complainants to explain the outcome and the reasoning behind its decisions, but all complaints are logged and acknowledged, and decisions are published on our website. Ofcom’s considerations about BBC online material are reported in Ofcom’s bulletin for complaints about BBC online material here.
After careful assessment, we did not consider the material raised substantive issues under the relevant BBC editorial guidelines that warranted further consideration by Ofcom. In accordance with our procedures, this decision was included on page 2 of Issue 17 of Ofcom’s Bulletin for complaints about BBC online material, published on 27 April 2020.
Yours sincerely
I have sent an e-mail back today Registering my disgust at OFCOM. I pointed out that it is a sorry state
of affairs when the BBC can lie with impunity and yet OFCOM does nothing about it. I note from the
Bulletin that my complaint was the only one. Perhaps more people need to complain to get them to do anything. Once more many thanks John.
watcher 11th September 2020 at 14:41
'..thank you for your help ..Perhaps more people need to complain to get them to do anything.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Thank you ,watcher
I think it behoves all of us as citizens (oops, sorry, Ma'am, subjects!) to be ready to challenge the deeds and words of people in public office when we think we have cause to believe they lie or mislead.
We certainly have an absolute right to have our questions at least acknowledged!
I'm glad you got a reply.
Any reply might be a tissue of lies, of course: but if that ever proves to be the case the liar can be nailed and held accountable. And equally, any one of us might be wrong in our facts and have to accept that.
But for a public official or public body simply to ignore correspondence relating to his or its public functions is absolutely not on!
I was up in good time this morning, sat down at about 8.55 and dialled the number to get into the virtual court hearing.
The line was busy: and it feckin stayed busy up to 9.50, when I abandoned hope of catching any of the Hearing.
Was anyone able to listen in?
Unlikely to last:
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ally-mccoist-revisits-2012-rangers-22669223
“The Ibrox legend was manager when the club was liquidated eight years ago.”
borussiabeefburg 11th September 2020 at 21:06
'.Unlikely to last:
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ally-mccoist-revisits-2012-rangers-22669223'
“The Ibrox legend was manager when the club was liquidated eight years ago.”
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
If that is genuinely in the paper it might cost someone his/her job!
It is, as you say, bbb, unlikely to last.
And that's Lambert off the Christmas card list along with the other Celtic former players who deny that RFC of 1872 died the death!
John Clark 11th September 2020 at 17:32
I was up in good time this morning, sat down at about 8.55 and dialled the number to get into the virtual court hearing.
The line was busy: and it feckin stayed busy up to 9.50, when I abandoned hope of catching any of the Hearing.
Was anyone able to listen in?
You didn’t miss much.
Gerry Moynihan for the LA appeared to indicate that there were further admissions to be made regarding the period leading up to the first indictment (previously they only referred to actions post that indictment). GM will submit these to the court in the next week. He anticipated that the documents would be made public in due course, or earlier on the direction of Lord Tyre.
The Dean of Faculty (Roddy Dunlop) acting for Whitehouse asked for a further six weeks to complete further interviews with witnesses. Lord Tyre was unhappy about the amount of time requested. RD responded by saying that earlier witness statements were made prior to the “admissions” and needed to be revisited. He indicated that his time scale was conservative and expected to complete it sooner with cooperation from the Crown Office. RD also indicated that he would review the quantum of the damages sought in this part of the action.
RD then sought an award of further expenses for any additional or rework required following the previous admissions, and the new ones still to come. Lord Tyre reserved a decision on expenses until a later date.
Lord Tyre set a follow up procedural hearing for Tuesday 29th September at 9am.
The proof (if one goes ahead) is provisionally set for January.
The action against Police Scotland was not discussed, but the indication was that it remains as was, for the time being.
easyJambo 11th September 2020 at 21:57
'..You didn’t miss much.
Gerry Moynihan for the LA appeared to indicate that there were further admissions to be made regarding the period leading up to the first indictment ..'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I am extremely grateful to you for that, eJ.
I am interested in big Roddy's observation:
'RD responded by saying that earlier witness statements were made prior to the “admissions” and needed to be revisited'
What does that mean? That the earlier statements were knowingly untrue? Or that they were made on the basis of what the statement signatory believed at the time to be true but now that the 'truth' has been established the statement signatory can revise his testimony to match?
Questions like this are of course well OT, in that they have no connection to football except the loose connection that the persons seeking damages were the Administrators of a football club.
It's interesting all the same, that a football club's crooked dealings in respect of tax dodging and lies to the SFA , has brought up , via a civil damages claim by its Administrators, questions about the integrity not only of police but of the COPFS.
And those kinds of questions are far far more important than mere football.
easyJambo 11th September 2020 at 21:57
Thanks for the update
I'm still flabbergasted that – as far as I'm aware – not one person has resigned, or been fired,
since the Crown Office admission of its "malicious prosecution" in a court of law!
Separately, IMO, this shocking exposure of OUR Scottish criminal system has had nowhere near enough media coverage either.
Does the CPS, Police Scotland, the Scottish Government and the SMSM have their very own, informal, '4 Way Agreement'?
It stinks even more now.
StevieBC 12th September 2020 at 12:48
The Lord Advocate is one of the Scottish Ministers. He (or she) is appointed by the Queen, on the advice of the First Minister.
He (or she) is the senior Scottish Law Officer and the head of COPFS (not CPS which is in England).
Police Scotland operate under the auspices of the Lord Advocate, and all prosecutions on indictment are in his (or her) name.
Basically the Scottish Government choose the Lord Advocate. The Lord Advocate runs COPFS. COPFS tell the Police what to do.
H, so going by that food chain,
someone from Police Scotland would/should have been ‘resigned’ immediately after the Court admission?
Unless I’m missing something, it just seems that no PR crisis management is required – because there is minimal SMSM coverage of a scandalous story, IMO.
StevieBC 12th September 2020 at 15:57
'..someone from Police Scotland would/should have been ‘resigned’ immediately after the Court admission?'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
On the face of it, the taxpayers ( you and I among them) are already out of pocket by the awards already made to Whitehouse and Clark, with the possibility that several millions more of our money will go to them by and by.
In so far as police officers were following the instructions of the the two Lords Advocate who were successively involved it's hard to see how they bear any responsibility for the actions they took [the manner in which one senior officer is alleged to have taken some actions might be questionable, and perhaps disciplinary action might follow] But, overall, I think the polis were merely carrying out orders, even if through gritted teeth.
As regards the COPFS, it's a matter of public record that at least one PF was bemused by the orders given and the decisions made , rescinded, and re-made, it seems, almost off the cuff by the ultimate decision maker.
I sat in Lord Bannatyne's court-room several times and heard the most unenthusiastic presentation of a case by the Advocate Depute that I imagine I will ever hear. Several drafts of the indictment, so many, it seemed, that Lord Bannatyne with justifiable irritation had on one occasion to ask whether he had a copy of the latest one.
It is not with hindsight that as a layman not at all 'learned in the law' I say that I felt then that this was a prosecution apt to fail: there was no heart in it.
The Administrators had reported to the Police their suspicions that something had been not quite right about the purchase of RFC by Whyte.
The Police investigated. And those who reported their suspicions that a possible crime had been committed are themselves arrested, and they and a few others are incompetently indicted and put on trial, and then the charges are all withdrawn!
Net likely result : millions of pounds from you and me to be paid in compensation …
Two Lord Advocates and numerous lawyers in his Crown Office staff were involved in the whole botch-up.
The sensitivities are ,well, extremely sensitive.
But the polis are probably not responsible for the shambles of a prosecution.
There are a couple of issues with holding the Lord Advocate personally accountable for the malicious prosecutions related to RFC/Sevco/D&P.
While David Whitehouse was successful in his appeal to the Inner House of the Court of Session that the Lord Advocate should not have immunity from prosecution, the Lord Advocate at the time, Frank Mulholland, has moved on. He was appointed as a Senator of the College of Justice in 2016, so is now Lord Mulholland and a judge in criminal cases and the High Court or civil cases at the Court of Session.
Judges do have immunity from prosecution for actions related to their office, though I suspect that his current role will not protect him from his actions as Lord Advocate.
The reality is that any liability will be met by the state, i.e. the taxpayer. Whether or not Lord Mulholland will be forced to resign from his judiciary role in the event of multiple adverse outcomes in the current legal proceedings is a moot point.
"…But the polis are probably not responsible for the shambles of a prosecution."
Just like the 2012 football governance shambles: those who were really responsible evaded any punishment.
e.g. Murray and Ogilvie should have been banned sine die from Scottish football, IMO.
It was twisted to become HMRC's 'fault' – and even yesterday the SMSM was reporting that Dundee United had 'created' bitterness in the game – for not voting a Rangers directly into the SPL!
Going back to the original query: if everybody involved has 'brass necked it' since the malicious prosecution admssion so far – then any resignations / firings seem unlikely now?
It's the taxpayer who will be punished – via massive payouts – for 'legal governance' incompetence/corruption?
And those who were really responsible just carry on…?
John Clark 12th September 2020 at 23:37
I have not attended any hearings, however just intuitively I think it is just as likely that the Police overstepped the mark themselves, rather than being instructed to do so.
Crown Office do not issue search warrants, either they or the Police make application for them, it is a Sheriff who grants the warrant. In my view any mistakes are likely to have been made during the search, where the Officers went beyond the terms of the warrant.
I would also argue that whilst the Lord Advocate and Crown Office might have overall responsibility for the investigation what they will do is instruct the senior Police officers. They will then instruct the officers carrying out the work and make day to day operational decisions.
I would not absolve Police Scotland of any blame in a flawed investigation / prosecution. Let's not use the Nuremberg defence.
Homunculus 13th September 2020 at 13:04
…………
I myself blame them all, from the top to the bottom, all wanted to bask in the limelight of being the ones who were part of a collection of people who did the right thing by the institution that was the ibrox club.
The light shinning on them now though is not the light they want.
I note St Mirren's Jim Goodwin has let rip at the SPFL for essentially trying to force them to go ahead with their game v Hibs yesterday without a keeper.
However, rules is rules and all that. If you don't have a recognised goalie available then just play with what you have got in your squad.
In the words of Ross County's Roy McGregor, should they not have just 'Taken their medicine' given these unusual times.
Luckily a club, who are supposedly driven by self interest, stepped up with an emergency loan arrangement so St Mirren could take the field with a half decent keeper instead of a converted outfield player.
Not sure if to be critical of my club for not telling St Mirren to 'go do one' and stew in their own juice or to be proud of an organisation who, despite being shafted a few months ago, was willing to step up and assist when a fellow member club of the SPFL needed some help.
I'm starting a book on the number of stitches macho maddog Morelos will have on his injured knee on Thursday .
5-10 6/1
10 million + 18/1
0 – 1/10
Lipread McAllister when he was being carted off the park . And there's a man who's missing his barber .
Cluster One 13th September 2020 at 15:35
Whilst I agree with blame being spread I think it's highly unlikely that Francis Mulholland, born in Coatbridge and attended St Bernard's Primary and Columba High wanted to " … bask in the limelight of being the ones who were part of a collection of people who did the right thing by the institution that was the ibrox club."
I think like a lot of other people he made mistakes with the investigation and prosecution.
paddy malarkey 13th September 2020 at 16:34
Caught some of the radio commentary yesterday and then some of the 'afters' so was expecting to see a horrendous tackle on Sportscene.
However, totally innocuous, no reaction from the ref, no reaction from any of the players. Morelos shows a poor touch and Edwards, probably expecting better control, takes a clearing kick at the ball as it comes loose.
I'd be raging if a defender wasn't attacking the loose ball. Unfortunately, Morelos has jumped in to regain the situation and the lads boot has caught him in the knee.
Ref totally correct and anything else, including the pundits on Sportscene calling for a red, is well of the mark IMHO.
Homunculus 13th September 2020 at 13:04
'.I would not absolve Police Scotland of any blame in a flawed investigation / prosecution'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Behind the point I was trying to make ( not too clearly) was that the decision to prosecute and to continue the prosecution even when ( as now appears) it was apparent at some determinate stage that there were no safe grounds for doing so was the fault of the COPFS which was directing the prosecution.
Police officers ( at least one) may have acted beyond their brief, but what is going to cost the taxpayer is the fact that the brief itself (i.e. the decision that there was evidence enough to charge people with crime (s) and arrest them is now acknowledged to have been rash and unsound right from the off.
A monumental kcuf-up when, who knows? a little bit more savvy might have been exercised to better effect
Aggresssive and 'overzealous' police officers can be disciplined.
Can Lord Advocate(s)?
wottpi 13th September 2020 at 17:40
IMO , Morelos bottled it , and we were told at an early age that if you bottle it in a tackle , you'll end up injured .
.
paddy malarkey 13th September 2020 at 20:52
'.. if you bottle it in a tackle , you'll end up injured . '
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
when you bottle it in a physical tackle, indeed you do suffer physical injury.
When you bottle it in a moral sense, as when you shirk your moral obligations and create myths to try to justify yourself, you suffer injuries that will not heal.
Ask anyone in office in the SFA, SPL or SFL 'what did you do in the 'Rangers saga'?
They know they destroyed belief in the integrity of Scottish Football as a sport by making a nonsense of it by creating a myth.
And that self-knowledge will haunt them for the rest of their miserable lives, bluster though they may.
Their epitaphs will have the unwritten words hovering above the stone or urn , 'this man was a cheat , liar, and betrayer and abuser of the office entrusted to him'
John Clark 3rd September 2020 at 22:54
The only way forward for TRFC is to acknowledge the truth:
======
JC while browsing a link i found myself at Companies house, and while there took a look at TRFC accounts 2019, which is a bit of a puzzler as there are two companies listed claiming to be The old RFC.
Firstly: THE RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED
Company number SC425159
Incorporated on 29 May 2012
Secondly: RANGERS INTERNATIONAL FOOTBALL CLUB PLC
Company number SC437060
Incorporated on 16 November 2012
Both still claim in their yearly accounts strategic report to be Rangers Football club formed in Scotland 1872
So anyway a little intrigued and knowing my knowledge of company filings to be sadly neglected, I had a look at both, namely their yearly accounts.
TRFC Club limited shows
Year Ended 30th June 2019 Total Revenue 51.326
Year ended 30th June 2018 Total Revenue 31.618
Operating Loss 12.259
RIFC shows
Year Ended 30th June 2019 Total Revenue 53.171
Year Ended 30th June 2018 Total Revenue 32.163
Operating Loss 11.647
I doubt TRFC will ever acknowledge the truth when not one but two companies registered in 2012 can pretend to be the same entity, and more so appear to just willy nilly pluck figures from thin air.
regards
ff
JC 13 Sep. 20.27
“Aggresssive and ‘overzealous’ police officers can be disciplined”
It is my understanding that the DC at the forefront of arrests and investigations, including some unsavoury behaviour in a police station, was in fact Promoted! Now a DCI I believe!
Lets see how his career pans out.
edit – He might have been DS not DC at the outset.
Questions I think ought to be answered over the 'malicious prosecution' are;
1. What was malicious about it?
2. Did the PF's office prosecute while failing to meet their own standards for prosecution?
2. Did any police officers lie to the PF?
3. Was evidence fabricated?
Big Pink 14th September 2020 at 11:48
Questions I think ought to be answered over the 'malicious prosecution' are;
1. What was malicious about it?
2. Did the PF's office prosecute while failing to meet their own standards for prosecution?
2. Did any police officers lie to the PF?
3. Was evidence fabricated?
===============================
1. My understanding is that the fundamental problem was that the arrests and detention of the individuals involved proceeded without an evidential basis to support the charges. That points to a prosecution "without due cause"
2. In addition to the previous answer, a decision to proceed regardless, in the hope that something would turn up would make such a prosecution as being "with malice". It is clear that the PF's office failed to adhere to their own standards for prosecutions.
3. There are allegations that the Police may have misled the PF's office or other agencies, e.g. to obtain search warrants. That may become apparent in the separate action against Police Scotland.
4. I don't know about fabricating evidence, but there is strong evidence to suggest that the police acquired a large number of documents during their searches, over which legal privilege had been claimed
EasyJambo
It seems then, that either the entire prosecutorial system has broken down, or there has been some commission between the police and crown to ‘get’ their men.
Allegedly.
There are, of course, two companies, FF. TRFC is the club, as is and has always been (at least since 2012), and RIFC is the holding company. The disparity in the accounts is because TRFCs accounts are rolled up into RIFC alongside any other income RIFC may have. Of course, they are both the original RFC subject to requirements at the time
I think it's the posts which are being sued not the people.
Both the Lord Advocate and the Chief Constable have changed since the relevant times if memory serves.
There may be individual (named) Police officers being sued as well, I haven't seen that.
Sportsound currently:
"a broken organisation" says Stewart, 'looks like an organisation that is corrupt' I don't have faith in its decisions'…. no integrity
says Stewart Gilmour former chair of St Mirren. "If one or the other of the 'Old Firm' had no goalkeeper available would they have had to play?"
Imagine saying that the SPFL lacked Sporting Integrity!! Who woulda thunk such a thing?
"a broken organisation" says Stewart, 'looks like an organisation that is corrupt' I don't have faith in its decisions'….
no integrity says Stewart Gilmour former chair of St.Mirren…
============
Aye JC, but if Gilmour had used those exact, same 'brave' words back in 2012, about the SFA or SPL/SFL,
then I'd eagerly listen to whatever he has to say today.
…but he didn't so I won't!
Can anyone confirm if the following is correct?
Yesterday there were reports that Hearts were the only team outwith the Premiership who were regularly testing players and then they have now been given permission to play teams who do not have testing regimes.
Therefore when are the remainder of the SPFL teams supposed to start testing or is it now not required in the lower three tiers?
Given the announcement that three Hamilton youth players have tested positive, what chances of Covid circulating amongst part-time teams etc and not being detected until it is too late.
What does the 'P' in the SPFL stand for?
wottpi 15th September 2020 at 15:04
"What does the 'P' in the SPFL stand for?"
""""""""""""""""""""
How about : pernicious, perfidious, perverted, pusillanimous, penurious, perjured, pisspoor….
SPFL, P………….Has to be the main man within it, Peter !
I wonder if someone can come up with what these numbers refer to……….
332: Rangers
235: St.Johnstone
231: St.Mirren
200: Hamilton
197: Hearts
46: Dundee Utd
44: Motherwell
38: Kilmarnock
35: Ross County
35: Livingston
24: Hibs
17: Aberdeen
4: Celtic
Anyone ?
reasonablechap 16th September 2020 at 07:38
'.what these numbers refer to…'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Insufficient information, I'm afraid.
Which 'Rangers' is referred to?— Cove Rangers, Berwick Rangers, The Rangers FC of 2012, or the Liquidated Rangers Football Club of 1872,sadly no longer participating in Scottish professional football?
I see the 'Queen's Eleven' supporter, that man of truth and integrity, Murdo Fraser ,opened his mouth to speak about the 'malicious prosecution', writing in today's 'The Scotsman' that the Lord Advocate's admission 'should send shivers down the spine of anyone concerned about the integrity of the Scottish legal system'
Hypocritical of a politician who had nothing much to say about the lack of integrity of his 'Queen's Eleven' which cheated Scottish football for a decade or the lack of Integrity of the Scottish football authorities in their cringing readiness to create and sustain the sporting and commercial myth that a club founded in 2012 is that very same 'Queen's Eleven' that was founded in 1872.
Utterances by the likes of Fraser who clearly shares in belief in the Big absurd Lie send shivers down my spine.
Bad cess to him.
It’ll be the same old, same old . Secret meeting with interested parties , decision on way forward taken , plan actioned regardless of collateral damage , any questions deemed to be underming attempts to catch the baddies , all supported by a compliant and equally corrupt SMSM . It’s how the establishment rolls .
And on the Castore strip fiasco , weird to see all those supporters desperate to get their money into the new club , especially as they declined in 2012 and let the original club die .
reasonablechap 16th September 2020 at 07:38
I wonder if someone can come up with what these numbers refer to……….
332: Rangers
4: Celtic
====
At a rough guess the amount of penalties voted to be awarded to each team, during a masonic meeting by those fine whistlers with rolled up trouser legs while wearing an apron and sporting a rams head 🙂
332: Rangers
4: Celtic
==========
Draft versions of the 2018/19 Annual Accounts.
For 2019/20, the number of draft versions are expected to be;
1690: Rangers
4: Celtic
I wonder if someone can come up with what these numbers refer to……….
332: Rangers
4: Celtic
………….
Adverts for season tickets at the bottom of a puff piece in the SMSM in the last 4 years
paddy malarkey 16th September 2020 at 15:34
And on the Castore strip fiasco , weird to see all those supporters desperate to get their money into the new club , especially as they declined in 2012 and let the original club die .
………….
How do the supporters get money into the club if most are asking for a refund as the replica kits are so bad;-)
Big Pink 16th September 2020 at 15:12
'.It seems then, that either the entire prosecutorial system has broken down, or there has been some commission between the police and crown to ‘get’ their men.
Allegedly.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
The starting point, I believe, is the fact (?) that it was the Administrators themselves who alerted the Police to their suspicions,no doubt providing them with some documents that might have indicated why the Administrators were suspicious.
Following up, the Police presumably thought that somewhere in the document chain there was mention of the connection between Whyte, Grier, MCR/the Administrators and D&P getting and keeping the gig, and something that suggested that there might have been some collusion in the matter of the financing of the purchase.
It's unlikely that the Crown Office would authorise continuance to prosecution if there was insufficient evidence.
They would hardly prosecute with the intention to fcuk the prosecution up deliberately! Easier and safer just not to prosecute, for lack of evidence..
Is it possible, is it likely, is it believable that the Police would have had a motive for falsifying evidence just to try to get the people who 'killed 'Rangers' done for that 'crime', out of some kind of desire for revenge?
Or is it conceivable that the Police might deliberately have intended or been led to sabotage the prosecution by insultingly provoking a solicitor while seizing material that the solicitor had which was legally privileged, in order to achieve that end?
Clearly there was a major 'bol's-up, one way or the other. All charges against all accused dropped, prosecution abandoned.
Accidental incompetence, or deliberate intent to protect other people of great influence not already charged?
Will we ever know, if settlements are made on a non-disclosure basis?
I wonder if someone can come up with what these numbers refer to……….
332: Rangers
235: St.Johnstone
231: St.Mirren
200: Hamilton
197: Hearts
46: Dundee Utd
44: Motherwell
38: Kilmarnock
35: Ross County
35: Livingston
24: Hibs
17: Aberdeen
4: Celtic
=======///============
Fitbawfan
At a rough guess the amount of penalties voted to be awarded to each team, during a masonic meeting by those fine whistlers with rolled up trouser legs while wearing an apron and sporting a rams head
=============%%%===
No, but it does have something to do with penalties.
It is the amount of days since each team were last awarded a penalty in the SPFL premiership.
Looks like old Karla (Moscow Central) couldnae lace Peter’s boots. The Celtic heid honcho must have been inserting double agents into the masonic lodges.
I think the main positive thing we should take from this is that the Lord Advocate, Crown Office, The Chief Constable and Police Scotland are not above the law, or exempt from it.
It was Lord Carloway Lord President of the Court of Session and Lord Justice General, Scotland's most senior Judge, who said that.
https://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2019/11/19/the-lord-advocate-of-scotland-is-not-immune-from-suit-for-malicious-prosecution-supreme-court-of-scotland-considers-relationship-of-scots-law-with-the-european-convention-on-human-rights-and-the-huma/
…
Will we ever know, if settlements are made on a non-disclosure basis?
=======
JC, on the face of it, it would appear that by admitting 'malicious prosecution' the Crown Office has admitted its liability: the monetary value of that liability is to be determined.
Any NDA would be a wholly separate matter – you would think?
The Crown Office is in no position to dictate what can/cannot be divulged about this collapsed criminal action(s).
All they can do is offer an NDA – for a price – to be added to the monetary liability.
Likewise, it would seem that the victim's could agree a monetary value – but politely decline any offer of an NDA.
I hope no NDA is accepted, so that;
– the taxpayer will not have to pay more
&
– information can be publicly shared, so that those responsible can be questioned further – and mibbees be forced to take some personal responsibility?
It's funny what you can do with statistics. Or more importantly the ones you chose to quote
This is from June this year
RANGERS top the table when it comes to the frequency of penalties handed out in the Scottish Premiership according to a new data analysis.
According to the CIES Football Observatory, since the 2017-18 season, Gers have on average obtained a spot kick every 411 minutes – a total of 23 from 105 matches.
Rivals Celtic sit seventh in the table having earned 14 penalties from 106 games in this period, averaging one every 681 minutes – four and a half hours behind their Ibrox counterparts.
Hamilton and Kilmarnock sit just behind Rangers in second and third, being awarded penalties every 477 minutes and 502 minutes, respectively.
The table is based on the nine Premiership clubs who have taken part in all three campaigns since the study began in 2017.
Motherwell are cut adrift at the bottom of this table having only had 13 penalties in their 106 games – giving the Steelmen an average of 734 minutes for every spot kick awarded.
———————————————
Homunculus 16th September 2020 at 18:20
'…I think the main positive thing we should take from this is that the Lord Advocate, Crown Office, The Chief Constable and Police Scotland are not above the law, or exempt from it.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
The truth of that , of course, would be proved only if ( God forbid!) any of those three office -holders broke the law and was indicted, charged , tried and found guilty!
Bear in mind that we are now living in a (UK) society where a buffoon of a Prime Minister has publicly declared that he will be happy to break the law!
(credit t o Advocate General for Scotland Richard Keen for resigning his office rather than accommodate the buffoon)
Aye, JC, initially Keen wasn't too keen on resigning.
But, fair play: he's eventually done the right thing.
John Clark 16th September 2020 at 20:24
======================================
That would be the private individual breaking the law, not the post breaking the law.
The point is that the Lord Advocate, whoever that happens to be at the time, is no longer immune. That immunity (as was) there does not extend to people working on his (or her) behalf.
Homunculus 16th September 2020 at 18:47
'..It's funny what you can do with statistics. Or more importantly the ones you chose to quote'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
reasonablechap 16th September 2020 at 18:11
332: Rangers
It is the amount of days since each team were last awarded a penalty in the SPFL premiership.
………..
Was that the 4 in one game?
Long gone are the waghorn (Pen) days, when it was said the ibrox club get a lot of penalties because they are an attacking team and most of the play is in the opposition box so more chance of penalties. Maybe this ibrox team don’t get in the other teams box enough.
Cluster One 16th September 2020 at 16:51
I would suggest "some" instead of "most" .
Read the stuff about them trying to get refunds . Every penny appears to be a prisoner .
The point I was aiming for is that TRFC fans have finally woken up to the fact that clubs can die and that their club is in great need of funds/donations to prevent happening . Unfortunately , they seem to forget that the lack of their support assisted in the demise of the club the originally supported until it was sent to liquidation .
paddy malarkey 17th September 2020 at 15:09
They were too big, too important to Scottish society to go into administration. It simply couldn't happen.
They were too big for that administration to fail, for the club to be liquidated. A CVA would be agreed, they would pay pennies in the pound and come back debt free and stronger than ever. Everyone would ensure that.
Given the above, they simply don't acknowledge that it happened. Well it happened but not to their club, to something which conveniently appeared out of nowhere.
Perhaps forgetting that the "holding company" already existed, it is called The Rangers FC Group Limited (previously Wavetower Limited). Which isn't actually being liquidated.
And there was me thinking it's over eight years since Rangers had a penalty. But to be fair it was a penalty that will never be forgotten – the death penalty!
Just a thought.
King's name has been mentioned online recently.
You would think he'd not be keen to get involved 'hands on' at Ibrox again – even if he could?
But, IIRC he still holds his – largest – share stake in RIFC, and he does have an outstanding loan payable to him.
Is it just a coincidence that King's name pops up around the time that Campbell Dallas is due to sign-off the RIFC Accounts?
Has King been asked to offer any financial guarantees to mitigate the expected / repeated Going Concern risk(s)?
Again IIRC, King gave a guarantee in the past, (but didn't actually honour it?)
Of course, I'm only guessing.
But – on the face of it – King would still be the single, largest loser if RIFC went bust.
StevieBC 17th September 2020 at 18:00
If I remember correctly his holding, via New Oasis is just over 25% of the shares (meaning he can block special resolutions). So I think you are right, he has the biggest holding and as such stands to lose the most.
That's to say nothing of any loans which may be outstanding to him.
Would using taxpayers' money to secure an NDA be legal? It implies that any due settlement would be inflated at our expense to avoid embarrassment to the authorities
StevieBC 17th September 2020 at 18:00
Homunculus 17th September 2020 at 19:50
If I remember correctly
There was to be a share issue in January and it never happened. kings parting shot at his last AGM was he would rather own shares in the club rather than in the holding company.And the RIFC was to be wound down or something,maybe it is still the plan but events out with football put an end to any plans. I believe kings loan is due to be repaid by 2021
spikeyheid 17th September 2020 at 21:49
‘…using taxpayers’ money to secure an NDA be legal?..’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
What I don’t know for sure is whether, if there was no settlement and the case went to trial ,the trial would be before a jury?
Apparently, in Scotland, it is the jury that determines how much damages are to be paid if the claimant wins, and although the judge can give guidelines , the jury can ignore these. And Scottish juries are apt, apparently, to be far more generous than the Courts in England..
If that is so, then Whitehouse and Clark might be best advised not to accept settlement of less than their respective claims, if they believe that they would a) win in Court and b) that the jury would be inclined to award them what they claim [ with the judge throwing in a few more thousands as ‘exemplary damages’ for the ‘malice’ aspect of the wasteful, abandoned prosecutions]
As against that, perhaps, the admission by the Crown is only that they prosecuted wrongly: they clearly don’t admit liability for the amounts of damages claimed, and might conceivably convince a jury that the claims are way over the top, so that something considerably less is awarded, less even than the offer that a settlement might might provide!
I expect that the duo will settle, to be sure of at least 85% or 90% of what they variously claim(plus legal costs), rather than run any risk of getting less than that.
But it is no secret that both Whitehouse and Clark are angry bunnies, especially Whitehouse, who was white and fizzing with rage and anger on at least one occasion when we saw him in Court, tugging at his solicitor’s sleeve to get him to pass a message to his Counsel about something the Crown Office QC (Mr Moynihan) was saying.
And that anger might make them determined to reserve the right to speak about their cases rather than tape their mouths with an NDA!
I hope they choose not to settle, so that we might all hear a bit more of the foul -up and who was responsible!
Not taking sides, of course, but these things are far too important to be kept hidden. If public officials make serious errors of judgment, or are cavalier about the exercise of the powers we invest them with, we need to know.
Because one day any one of us ( who could not look at the eye-wateringly huge expense of bringing an action) may be victim of error or cavalier attitudes.
Poetic justice or what?
Get to extra time by two penalties, and lose in a penalty shoot out!
I watched with enjoyment the game between Coleraine and Murrerwell.
Not a lot of silky football, but huge effort, and gutsy performances.
But I think Motherwell were not really ready for the determined fighting, attacking mood of Coleraine.
Pre-match complacency? A deadly thing!
Overall, I'm happy that the team of my dad's young days won through.
Exciting development for SFM possible with a new radio startup talking with us to provide football coverage.
Of course it may come to nothing, but anything that helps raise the platform is good.
John Clark 18th September 2020 at 00:33
Poetic justice or what?
Get to extra time by two penalties, and lose in a penalty shoot out!
I watched with enjoyment the game between Coleraine and Murrerwell.
====&====
I’m sure the SMSM and wee Nicola will be all over this anti-social distancing procedure.
https://twitter.com/craigfowler86/status/1306632492418502657/photo/1
Or perhaps they fall under a party of up to 30 who were shooting grouse. ?
Breath holding exercises commence.
The SPFL at their usual reactive best with today's statement.
There is so much irony in their desire to "protect" their beloved Premiership elite from the unwashed (and untested) masses. What happened to all the £50k donations to each SPFL club which were anticipated to provide the necessary level of testing? Why were Kelty and Brora invited to take part in the Betfred Cup when they were neither part of the testing regime, nor beneficiaries of the £50k handouts? Why the different regulations for the "colt" teams?
The Premiership clubs that are complaining about having their players exposed to untested opponents are exactly the same Premiership clubs that are advocating the return of thousands of untested fans into their stadiums and risking the health of their own employees involved in various roles working on turnstiles, catering, cleaning and security.
It should be the Premiership clubs who should be forfeiting matches if they are unwilling to play against untested opponents. After all, the SFA, the JRG and the Scottish Government (subject to protocols being adhered to) have already sanctioned adult and youth matches involving untested players. The Premiership players will still benefit from their regular testing regimes following any matches.
easyJambo 18th September 2020 at 18:30
'.The SPFL at their usual reactive best with today's statement…'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
You make a number of telling points, eJ, anent the SPFL Board's decision.
And it is the Board's decision, with no hint that it came after consultation with the membership as a whole.
It surprises me that the membership, having previously knocked on the head the ( sensible, I think) suggestion that the Board should be given explicit powers to take action in urgent matters arising from the effects of the pandemic and measures required to deal with such effects, should be content to let today's 'decisions' pass without comment.
I'm sure the non- SPL clubs must have thoughts to express?
Big Pink 18th September 2020 at 11:17
'..with a new radio startup talking with us to provide football coverage.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
That does sound interesting. Can you tell us a little more?
John Clark 18th September 2020 at 21:50
easyJambo 18th September 2020 at 18:30
‘.The SPFL at their usual reactive best with today’s statement…’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
You make a number of telling points, eJ, anent the SPFL Board’s decision.
===================================
As examples of the inconsistency a Hearts XI played East Fife (who fielded a different XI in each half) tonight and another XI will play Spartans tomorrow. Hearts operates within the testing bubble, but I’d be surprised if both East Fife and Spartans will have tested their squads in advance of the games.
fitbawfan 18th September 2020 at 14:52
'…I’m sure the SMSM and wee Nicola will be all over this anti-social distancing procedure.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Oh, I think maybe it'll feature in 'Off the Ball' tomorrow!
I'm sure Cosgrove will make some remark to Tam about hoping that the Murrerwell directors aren't in the same 'bubble' as their coach and players!
Will Aberdeen ask for guarantees before turning out for Sunday's game?
If individual players can be ( rightly) hammered for breaching covid protocols, then perhaps company directors of football clubs should be pilloried as well.
And the UEFA delegate!
Over this last wee while, I have been having a look at the business pages of 'The Scotsman".
Why?
Well, I've noticed that the 'business ' reporters seem to do nothing but act as advertising agents for companies that send in 'news' about their latest acquisitions or deals ,or staff promotions business extensions and such like without any comment whatsoever. ( I conclude that the newspaper must be taking money from the companies on whom they report, and that the reporters credited with a byline are on a bloody good thing ,cutting and pasting with no journalistic element to their work whatsoever!)
Anyway, today my eye fell on a piece by a Perry Gourley ( above his byline is the Twitter address of McGill's Buses) reporting as follows " The former Watt Brothers department store in Glasgow city centre has been bought by businessmen brothers Sandy and James Easdale who are planning a £20M revamp of the site,"
The puff-piece carries on with a quote from Sandy "…we believe the building has great potential for hotel and residential use…" and further information about other development projects that the Easdales are involved in.
The other 'business' items (three by Emma Newlands, one by August Graham, and a second by Perry Gourley) are of the same stamp- free publicity without any kind of critical comment whatsoever.
No harm, of course, to any of the companies mentioned or to the 'reporters', but surely these pieces should carry the words "advertising feature" or 'advertorial' , rather than be passed off as 'journalism'?
Easyjambo
i have to disagree with that.
The inconsistencies coming from the Scottish Govt are getting rather alarming.
Pro sport was allowed to restart based on setting up protective bubbles and having a testing regime in place. Football were allowed to move to one weekly test until the incidents with Aberdeen players and Boli.
if they are being asked to comply with that regime then it’s reasonable to protect the “bubble” otherwise why have it?
The changes to other levels of sport are nonsensical. We can’t meet more than 6 people from 2 households but organised sports can train and do contact training with up to 20 players in groups of 5. So either it’s all testing or no testing
my prediction – the mood music on further lockdown restrictions will see the end of contact training for non tested sports teams
John Clark 19th September 2020 at 13:18
Over this last wee while, I have been having a look at the business pages of 'The Scotsman". Why?…
======
Yes JC, it's become very noticeable recently that newspapers are ditching journalism in favour of copying/pasting press releases – in general – along with property schedules, opening of new pubs, new 'hot products', etc.
During the stabbing/shooting incident in Glasgow city centre a few months ago, it was pretty obvious that The GT had no reporters on the ground – down the road from their offices!
Their "Live" coverage was simply lifting Tweets from the public and Police Scotland.
I've noticed that The GT has simply not even mentioned some incidents locally, such as shootings.
Seems that the journalists have been replaced with copy/pasters – who are perhaps unable to add comment?
It just makes the SMSM online content worthless: why would anyone pay a monthly subscription to read adverts posing as "News"?
Apropos of nothing in particular, Michael Stewart is part of the Celtic TV pundit team.
It was refreshing to listen to him today, one normally expects the pundits on teams own channels to be very one sided. However when they were discussing the Livingston penalty he explained why he considered it a good decision. When they went on to discuss Celtic having a penalty claim rejected by the referee a few moments earlier he explained why that was a good decision as well.
Just him doing what he does and calling things the way he sees them I suppose, nice to see (hear) though.
John Clark 19th September 2020 at 13:18
…………..
Nothing to add, but when i have the time i will do the same
As a matter of minor irritation to me, I note that the following cases are still subject to reporting restrictions:
Charles Green v Rangers International Football Club Plc, Court of Session, Edinburgh, 12 November 2015
HMA v Craig Thomas Whyte, Gary Martyn Withey, David Henry Grier, David John Whitehouse, Paul John Clark , Charles Alexander Green and Sheik Imran Ahmad known as Imran Ahmad, High Court of Justiciary, Edinburgh, 16 October 2015
HMA for restraint order re Craig Whyte, Court of Session, Edinburgh, 11 September 2015
The Rangers FC Group Ltd re Adjudication of Claim, Court of Session, Edinburgh, 15 March 2016
Of these, I attended hearings related to two of them.
In particular, I attended the first day of the Indictment hearing in the case of the 'conspiracy' charges involving Whitehouse and Clark, in the High Court in Edinburgh ( before it was transferred to Glasgow).( I think that eJ was also present, but wouldn't swear to that.)
This evening, while looking for something else, I came across the wee notebook in which I took notes of that hearing before the restriction was imposed.
I can scarcely believe that the 5th anniversary of that indictment hearing is coming up soon!
My notes contain nothing startling or revelatory: but I think I can say that it was then that the feeling grew in me that the prosecution was not going to be handled well.
(Frankly, it was, in my humble, layman's opinion, fkuced-up right from the off, as I think I have previously opined.)
And I don't think I am in breach of restrictions if I mention that the question of whether there ought [ given the extensive use even in 2015 of social media communications] to be 'restrictions on reporting' in cases which any member of the public might at will wander into Court to hear.
Quite unconnectedly, and for anyone interested in the matter of police standards and police discipline, I found this judgment , published on 16 September, of great interest:
SECOND DIVISION, INNER HOUSE, COURT OF SESSION [2020] CSIH 61 P105/18 Lord Justice Clerk Lord Menzies Lord Malcolm OPINION OF LADY DORRIAN,
In particular, I liked Lord Malcolm's view wee analogy ( in his concurrence with Lady Dorrian's decision)
( I am a fan of Lord Malcolm's style, as I may have mentioned before. Utterly genial, tolerant, unfussy, unruffled, but can slide in the wee killer put-down as he smiles.)
Not altogether off topic on SFM, perhaps.
"Andy Halliday in surprise Rangers red card verdict as Michael Stewart silenced on Sportscene
Gabriel McKay 2 hrs ago"
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
What would you make of that as 'journalism'?
There is 'truth:' of a sort: Stewart did not get to speak, but that was because of time restrictions ( and possibly stage-managed-we know what the BBC is like)
But the deliberate, evil (in my opinion) use of the word 'silenced' with the connotations that that word has, shows to my mind a malevolent hope of stirring up controversy, by a newspaper dying on its feet. (May it die a quick death)
The angelically named 'journalist' might more fitly have been named after a quite different angel-Lucifer!
And we know what he was like!
Honest to God! What we have to put up with with the likes of the DR!
Anent my post at 22.58, I've looked on 'Scotlandspeople', and the only birth registrations of persons named 'Gabriel McKay' are three in number:
one in 1954 (charles gabriel) (who will now, I hope, be happily living as a young 66/67 year old)
one in 1989 (fergus gabriel) (now aged 30/31)
and one in 2018 (Rafe Gabriel)!( who I hope is a happy wee 2-year old boy)
[Of course the Gabriel McKay of the DR might have been born in any part of the world]
Is Fergus Gabriel the guy who used the word 'silenced'?
Shame on him, if so.
The SMSM today has returned to the 'story' that Lille are interested in Morelos – this time with an alleged £18M bid.
As per: no quotes from Lille or French sources.
The quote is from a Colombian individual on a website I've never heard about.
Any prospective sale – to any club for whatever amount – is presumably too late now to appear as a Post Balance Sheet Event Note to the Accounts, due out next month.
So, I'm guessing Morelos – and his agent – have now come to some agreement with TRFC?
He looks fitter, seems to be training better – and back in the starting line up, and scoring goals.
…another payrise?
Shirley, the bears are also laughing at the SMSM coverage of the 'Morelos transfer rumours' ?
StevieBC 21st September 2020 at 12:41
'..As per: no quotes from Lille or French sources.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
And what about this crap?
from Joel Sked in today's 'The Scotsman'
"Rangers have received a new €20million offer for Alfredo Morelos from Lille.
The Colombian was on the score sheet for the Ibrox side in their 2-2 draw with Hibs at Easter Road on Sunday, following a double against Lincoln Red Imps on Thursday in the Europa League
It appeared interest from the French side had waned after they had recruited Jonathan David from Gent for a reported €30million.
Yet, according to reports in Colombia, the Ligue 1 side have reignited their interest in Morelos"
-an absolute statement of fact ,followed by 'according to reports in Colombia'.
Journalism of that kind is Trumpian in its intention to deceive, and the people who practice it are doing a great disservice.
May they soon be unemployed.
There have been reports of a new Alfredo Morelos bid. Picture: SNS
Lille are not the only side keen in the 24-year-old with West Brom and Serie A’s Fiorentina monitoring the situation.
“Andy Halliday
Is this the new go to guy? All those videos put out over the summer are paying off then?
And to crown everything here is a quote from English: on Sportsound a few minutes ago:
"as a journalist I crave honesty"
Has he ever mentioned the fact that RFC of 1872are in Liquidation and that TRFC cannor possibly be that club.
I thought not.
Mike Ashley has been a person of interest on the SFM blog because of his connection with TRFC as being a shareholder of RIFC plc until June 2017: and, of course, as the owner of SDI.
It's a quiet night, so I was trawling through BAILLII for fun
https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2017/1553.html&query=(sdi)
and came across a case , totally unconnected with football, in which Ashley was involved.
I give you this;
"The trial of the action is due to begin in a week's time on 3 July 2017. The claim brought by Mr Blue is based on an oral agreement allegedly made between himself and Mr Ashley on 24 January 2013 in relation to the share price of Sports Direct International Plc ("
SDI"),
a company in which Mr Ashley owns and controls the majority of the shares.
The agreement allegedly made was that, if Mr Blue deployed his experience, skill and contacts in corporate finance to get
SDI's
share price above £8 per share before 24 January 2016, Mr Ashley would pay Mr Blue £15 million.
Mr Blue contends that the condition was fulfilled and the money is therefore payable.
Mr Ashley denies that any agreement was made. He also says that it was necessarily implicit in any oral agreement of the type alleged that the share price of
SDI
would need to rise to £8 by reason of Mr Blue's actions in order for the contractual sum to become payable and that Mr Blue cannot show that his actions were the effective cause of the rise in the share price'
—
So I look up 'Mr Blue' (Jeffrey Ross Blue) on Companies House.
And, God forgive me, and not in any way making any equation with Mr Blue, I was put in mind of the pin-striped-suited Del Boy type who got a couple of grand from CW to help with his rent.
Being of labouring class origins, I was, and still largely am, ignorant of the world of finance.
Worse than that, I tended to believe that these guys up there in the 'financial' market, speaking glibly about 'investment' were honest and knowledgeable .
I cannot now believe my own naivety and gullibility!
Think back. The MBMB? The bottomless pockets of SDM? The multimillion pound players happy to accept wages hardly commensurate with their value?
What an utterly deceitful world that Scottish Football is.
With the SMSM a large part of that deceit.
John Clark 21st September 2020 at 18:35
And to crown everything here is a quote from English: on Sportsound a few minutes ago:
"as a journalist I crave honesty" …
=========
English certainly has a high/delusional opinion of himself!
"as an ex-BBC licence payer I expected honesty"
Hence, I no longer pay the TV tax: I had gradually stopped watching BBC and BBC News years ago, due to its declining content quality and questionable news coverage.
And regardless of whether you agree or disagree with Assange and his Wikileaks motivations: his extradition hearing to the USA is currently in its 3rd week.
For – obvious – public interest reasons, the hearing should be widely reported across ALL the BBC News platforms – but it is not.
Being, erm, pessimistically optimistic,
it might not be all bad if the extended covid restrictions takes a heavy toll on Scottish Senior football?
Hampden has a bl00dy cheek seeking a taxpayers' bailout.
I don't want another penny of OUR money to go to Hampden – or to the 42 clubs.
Mibbees this is the external pressure which forces change – and improvement – to the game and its governance?
IMO, there will always be a demand in Scotland for professional football.
Breaking up the game and starting again might be extremely painful in the short-term but significantly beneficial in the long run?
If it also means that – for a period of time – we don't have club representation in Europe or even have a national team, then so what?
An opportunity to finally address the domestic game: the corruption, incompetence, lack of transparency, lack of accountability, lack of trust, lack of fans' involvement, etc. in OUR game.
An opportunity to redress the influence of TV companies?
'Creative destruction' might be the solution to the festering problems since 2012 and before?
John Clark 22nd September 2020 at 00:02
“The trial of the action is due to begin in a week’s time on 3 July 2017.
……………..
By a strange coincidence JC i was reading about that myself.
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1308750144872083457/photo/1
The reason being Ashley was in the News less than 2 weeks after king had renegotiated a retail deal with Ashley that cost the club £3mill that no one knew about until a later date.
Also smack bang in the middle of the ibrox club under the management of pedro getting knocked out of europe by part timer Progres Niederkorn from Luxembourg. remember Pedro in the hedge?
Looking back the other day it was all the negative headlines about Ashley that caught my eye. Good way of distracting from a retail deal with very little detail and the club being knocked out of europe.
…………….
A deal done in a pub.
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1307765033527644160/photo/1
Que passa?
Aurellio Zen 25th September 2020 at 14:54
'..Que passa?'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Seemingly, not a lot.
And no change in the SMSM, which continues to help foster and spread aa huge sporting fiction!
Returning this morning from a 3-day break up north we pulled into Blair Atholl to have a bit of lunch. I bought a copy of today's 'Herald.'
I read with interest the report (on page 9) of the death of Harold Evans, one-time editor of 'The Sunday Times'.
The report includes observations such as " He was renowned for his promotion of investigative journalism:"
I wonder what he would have made of 'journalists'
like like Graeme McGarry who, on the back page of the Sport supplement of the same newspaper, has this:
" Rangers fans will point out that when their own club was in dire financial straits, thee wasn't exactly a queue of willing saviours ready to bail them out, or even circumvent the rule-book to allow them back [my emphasis] into the top division following their liquidation…."
What kind of person writes such nonsense, which flies in the face of actual sporting and commercial truth?
McGarry clearly does not know the meaning of 'liquidation' and appears not to have heard that the club at present claiming to be Rangers of 1872 did not exist prior to 2012 and is to be ranked as a 'sporting' cheat in claiming as its own the sporting merits of a now defunct sports club.
Harold Evans will be contemptuously turning in his grave.
And it's doubtful if McGarry's obituary however far in the future it may be will include tributes to his 'investigative journalism' whatever it may say about his skills as a propagandist.
StevieBC 23rd September 2020 at 18:11
'…'Creative destruction' might be the solution to the festering problems since 2012 and before?'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Well, StevieBC, we have to acknowledge that any 'creative destruction' caused by Covid-19 is caused by no fault of man, and that no one in the business of Football can fairly be held accountable for Covid-19!
We can't blame the SFA/SPFL for the virus ( and to be fair, I have to say that they seem to have made every effort to comply with government advice)
Whereas the destruction of any notion that Scottish Football is an honest sport is very much the fault of persons who were sports cheats( like drug-taking cyclists or crooked boxing impresarios), and other persons who were and are happy to abuse their office as the governance body of the Sport in order to accommodate those cheats!
If the effects of Covid-19 result in the removal of such persons from the sporting scene, then we will all be the better for it.
In the absence of deceitful administrators, perhaps whatever professional football may survive in Scotland will regain some integrity as a true and honest Sport!
Though I doubt that the SMSM will ever be looked upon as a source of reliable information in the matter of football reporting!( I refer to my earlier post at 18.21)
And it kind of follows that I doubt the veracity of whatever the SMSM may have to say about anything else.
The image that springs unbidden to the mind is the scene in 'The man who shot Liberty Valance' where the newspaper guy gets killed for printing the truth.
No way is any football journalist in the SMSM going to risk telling the truth that TRFC cannot possibly be RFC of 1872!
And that's a problem for the rest of us.
The bully-boy equivalents of Liberty Valance rule, and editors and 'journalists' cower and quake and to hell with truth!
And those editors and 'journalists' know, they know, that they are a disgrace to their profession.
John Clark 26th September 2020 at 00:17
No way is any football journalist in the SMSM going to risk telling the truth that TRFC cannot possibly be RFC of 1872!
…………..
One or two tried and had to then seek other employment
Things have come to a pretty pass when confirmed kibitzers like myself feel the need to contribute, even to give ourselves something to read!
Given the dearth of income which must be almost the sole preoccupation of Scottish football boards, there is little evidence of public crys of pain from individual teams.
If the SPFL or SFA have any plan (I know) to deal with what must be an existential emergency for almost every club they are staying very coy about it.
Aurellio Zen
I doubt that we'll see any more spectators in football grounds , even for test events , this side of the New Year , even if a vaccine miraculously appears . The January 2 anniversary of the second Ibrox disaster would be my target , if I was in authority , and even then , it would be dependent on there being no covid catastrophe throughout the festive season . And I reckon that the clubs must have had a nod and a wink from Nicola wrt finances , as they all seem pretty relaxed about the situation . We could also have the fun situation of the play-off v Israel going to extra time and penalties , and the pubs shutting at 22.00 – according to UEFA , kick off is at 19.45 .
The financial support of sport will be a fascinating process.
On what basis will support be given? Surely there needs to be a review of the financial position of the sports org?
The sports org must do everything available to minimise costs including salary reductions.
Do buying and selling players need to be factored in?
what happens if a sports orgs accounts are ahem not ready/still at the accountants?
All this and more will be revealed n the next episode of….
Personally not in favour of any financial assistance to any professional sport/entertainment at all. I view this as an opportunity for a long overdue 'correction' in a pastime that has become bloated,fatted and corrupted by television money and gambling (see latest reports on match fixing). I hear of footballers on wages of over £200000 a week in the EPL and am incredulous at the suggestion that taxes should somehow subsidise this? Lesser scale but same principle should apply to Scotland.If for instance Celtic* approach a high value player next season and due to continued corona virus affect ask that player to accept reduced terms then the player will be able to say no and as the contract is breached be entitled to look elsewhere for employment.Given that this is a pandemic I doubt very much clubs will be falling over each other to sign players on any terms next year if the situation continues in its current form.Celtic fc* and others are businesses they no longer answer to fans outwith their shareholding.When this is all over and please god it doesn't continue into next year, then a full reappraisal of what is important to us all as a community should be undertaken..of course vested interests will not allow that to happen.Current subsidy of the arts and culture is not an argument in favour of bailing out football. We are afforded a vote and are aware of a candidates views on such matters.
Just to add I was sad to see the loss of true supporter of football Colin Weir. This man was fortunate enough to win a huge sum of money and was entitled to do with it as he saw fit. Part of it was to support Partick Thistle fc academy and I believe Largs local football too.He and his wife contributed significant sums to charity and to see this described in some quarters as 'burning through' millions was typical smsm.
* There are other well kent clubs and Celtic is used for illustrative purposes only.
Perhaps as the crisis continues, and football finances get ever more desperate – the 'penny' might drop with the 42 clubs: there is a distinct lack of value for money from Hampden.
For example, both the unqualified SFA CEO and the thoroughly discredited SPFL CEO are reportedly on £300K+ salaries.
Incredibly expensive administrations which provide inadequate returns in terms of;
– undervalued TV deals
– lack of sponsors for national team / league / etc.
– historically declining national team: current FIFA ranking is 49, compared to the average position since ranking began in '92 of 41
– loss of tournament related revenues over the last 22 years
– lack of VAR
– lack of customer service
etc…
I’ve just caught up with the Dunfermline Athletic shareholding situation, with the German investment company DAFC Fussball Company Ltd taking a 30% shareholding , with the option to increase its shareholding to75.1% before the end of May 2022 , and with three directors of that investment company already on the Board of Dunfermline FC since 1st September.
If they end up with 75.1% by May 2004 the investment company will have the option to buy Pars United (EEP) Ltd ( which owns the football ground, East End Park)
I can’t believe that I missed the news of all that earlier in the month!
I note that the share capital of Dunfermline FC was increased by the allotment of 550 000 shares way back in December 2016 . Was that when the German company first got interested?
I’m curious about the ways of business, and decidedly ignorant thereof.
What does it all mean?
( I hope , though, that the sporting integrity shown by Dunfermline FC in battling hard to get out of Administration in order to remain in honourable existence as the very same club that was founded in 1921 will be rewarded by the success of new arrangements)
If for nothing else than to point up the shabby nonsense that allows a cuckoo club like TRFC to claim to be what it is not and a governance body, cowardly and grovellingly, to lie in endorsing that false claim, in the very antithesis of ‘sporting integrity’
gunnerb 27th September 2020 at 22:24
'..Celtic fc* and others are businesses they no longer answer to fans outwith their shareholding.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Ha ha, gunnerb, some, including me, would say that Celtic plc do not answer even to their 'shareholders resolutions'.
And may even go so far as to be deceitful , conspiratorial, when 'explaining' why they do not answer.
Did RFC of 1872 lie about their tax debt liabilities?
Did anyone in the SFA knowingly pass on that lie to UEFA, so that a UEFA competitions licence could be granted to allow a financially distressed club get a few million quid to which it was not entitled?
We do not know for sure.
We do know that the SFA shut down any investigation and we may never find out!
And that Celtic plc chose not to upset the other side of the arse of the 'Old Firm' , meekly accepting as they did the possibility that they had been bilked of several millions, and were perhaps letting a crime happen rather than have it exposed.
In those kind of circumstances who would care a fig if Scottish Football as a whole died as a result of the pandemic?
Really, to be spending money to support a sport that has at its very heart a readiness not to be concerned about truth in Sport would be a nonsense.
completely agree with your post Gunnerb
we have many more pressing issues in society to deal with than bail out pro sports clubs
Not wishing to pick on any club or group of supporters , but posting stuff like this online isn't helping to get fans back into stadia .
https://twitter.com/UnionBears_07/status/1310305183856054275/photo/4
I know that not everyone is as concerned as I am about the deceit of the SMSM , the SFA/SPFL and the BBC in the matter of the 'Big Lie' underpinning the attribution to a 12 year-old football club of the sporting triumphs and honours earned by a now dead 140 year-year-old club.
However, with apologies, but for the sake of my personal integrity, can I say that having received an unsatisfactory reply to my letter of 10 September to the BBC's new Director-General, I have sent the following response:
"FAO…..D….D..
BBC Complaints Team
BBC Audience Services
PO Box 1922
Darlington,
DL3 0UR
Dear D …D…
Ref CAS -6337313-M8R7L7
Thank you for replying, on his behalf, to my letter of 10 September 2020 to the new Director-General, Mr Davie.
I would much have preferred, of course, to see his signature over what you have written, with your reference to the (now mercifully defunct) BBC Trust's ridiculous nonsense as your justification.
The point I thought I had made clearly enough in my letter is not that the BBC refers to 'Rangers Football Club' but refers to it as if it were the Rangers Football Club of 1872 foundation, when as a matter of incontrovertible fact that club ceased to exist when it lost its membership of a football league and its membership of the Scottish FA in consequence of suffering the insolvency event of Liquidation
It was not brought out of Liquidation by the settlement of all its huge debt.
The Rangers FC of 1872 was not bought by new owners -it still languishes in Liquidation awaiting dissolution when the Liquidators have concluded their task.
The present Rangers FC was created in 2012, and could not possibly be entitled to claim to be the Rangers FC of 1872.
It is, quite simply, a lie to assert that it is, out of fear of giving offence to influential people in Scottish society (including people in Football governance)who put commercial and personal considerations above the very concept of Sporting Integrity.
It is a disgrace that the BBC not only refused and continues to refuse to challenge that lie, but actively propagates it by referring to the sporting successes of the liquidated club as if they could be attributed to the new club; and disciplines staff and pundits if they so much as mention that the present Rangers Football Club is a new club, and tries to defend that stance with the ridiculous fabrication that the old club did not lose its entitlement to participate in Scottish football but had merely changed hands, carrying on as before under new ownership.
The original Rangers FC club is dead , its sporting life ended.
It behoves the national broadcasting company to recognise that fact publicly and desist from propagating a ridiculous commercial and sporting untruth.
If the BBC can support untruth in a matter of Sport, what lies might it not support in much more serious matters of, for example, politics and national government?
Yours in some disappointment if not entirely with surprise,
me "
I listened in to the latest episode of the Whitehouse & Clark v the Lord Advocate proceedings this morning.
The main points from the hearing were as follows:
The Lord Advocate has admitted liability for the malicious prosecution and all events that followed the pair's detention. However, he has placed responsibility for the two arrests in November 2014 and September 2015 squarely on Police Scotland.
Whitehouse has agreed to drop his claim against the Lord Advocate in respect of his arrests, however, Clark, for the moment, is continuing to hold the Lord Advocate of at least being partly responsible for what he sees as wrongful arrest and detention. (I suspect that Clark will fall in line with Whitehouse, as it would expedite proceedings by elimination a proof (trial) in respect of that part of the claim).
All parties agreed that the compensation payable in respect of the arrests and detentions would be but a "flea bite" in comparison to the overall claim for loss of earnings, reputation etc..
It looks likely that the quantum of the award payable in respect of the Lord Advocate will be determined either in a proof hearing or by mediation.
Lord Tyre set out a timetable for future events and will schedule a "by order" hearing in late October or early November to track progress. There are various interim dates for the provision of witness statements etc.
The Police Scotland part of the claim remains as it was, with Whitehouse and Clark again complaining that PS was not cooperating as they should in terms of disclosure of documents (including Charlotte Fakes) and witness statements. Lord Tyre echoed that sentiment by saying that it was not acceptable for a public body such as PS to behave in that way.
Separately from this morning's hearing I noted that David Grier started a a claim against the Lord Advocate last week. Previously his claim was only against Police Scotland.
easyJambo 29th September 2020 at 13:16
"..I listened in to the latest episode of the Whitehouse & Clark v the Lord Advocate proceedings this morning.."
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Thanks,eJ, for news of that interesting sounding development.
"…It looks likely that the quantum of the award payable in respect of the Lord Advocate will be determined either in a proof hearing or by mediation…"
=======
eJ, would you know;
– if a proof hearing decided the quantum it would be public information
– if mediation decides the quantum it will not be made public?
I'd guess that the Crown Office and Police Scotland wouldn't want the taxpayers to know just how many millions of pounds they had wasted through their admitted incompetence and/or corruption.
StevieBC 29th September 2020 at 18:39
"…It looks likely that the quantum of the award payable in respect of the Lord Advocate will be determined either in a proof hearing or by mediation…"
=======
eJ, would you know;
– if a proof hearing decided the quantum it would be public information
– if mediation decides the quantum it will not be made public?
===========================
It may depend on how the "proof" is conducted. If it is a "proof before answer", then it would be likely be published as a judgement on the court website.
What I understood of a proof to determine the quantum , is that both sides will argue their case as to the financial impact that resulted from the malicious prosecution. Loss of earnings should be fairly easily quantified. Damage to reputation less so.
I don't know if the mediation process would be similar to the "arbitration" process that Heart and Partick went through. If it is, then the determination will only be published if all parties agree to it.
One other thing I took from today's hearing when discussing the case against Police Scotland. There were suggestions from their QC that what was being claimed by Whitehouse and Clark was actually criminal conduct by the police. I would expect, if that was indeed the case, then the case would have to be handled differently, e.g. there would be no requirement for the "accused" police officers to make any statements and it would be up to the prosecution (the Crown) to prove criminality with Whitehouse and Clark as the witnesses.
I think that, having gone this far, it will still be resolved as a civil matter, either in the CoS or at mediation, but it could end up with the can kicked down the road a bit further.
easyJambo 29th September 2020 at 13:16
………..
Thanks ej
As the site is quite at the moment a couple of items caught my eye today, first up
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18754722.chase-celtic-fans-outraged-rangers-relegation-question/?fbclid=IwAR1QHV4_OHc2Scv_8A95ZriKDXuNNz43ZSXb9vYvZP0vOUaNbooVn22X7PA
link to the Glasgow Times
But even they state the “Rangers were liquidated then relegated 3 divisions” I think not – they were expelled and had to reapply
Also presented as a Celtic vs Rangers issue which it clearly is not !
2nd up
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54345231
So a Faroe team is only 90 mins away from Champion League group stages !!
Albeit they have a good draw, Dundalk, to qualify, they beat a couple of decent teams (one 6-1 !) to get there
Just shows how far the standard of Scottish football has dropped behind everyone else
easyJambo 29th September 2020 at 20:38
"…One other thing I took from today's hearing when discussing the case against Police Scotland. There were suggestions from their QC[my italics] that what was being claimed by Whitehouse and Clark was actually criminal conduct by the police. ,"
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Interesting to see that 'The Scotsman' reports [under Amy Watson's by-line]
"..Mr Clark's lawyer said three witness requests for pre-cognition – pre-proof interviews- of police officers have been returned [unanswered]. One refusal came from a retired chief inspector 'not from his personal address' .."he has not been found". Another letter was returned with 'No trace at Gartcosh" written on the envelope" [Gartcosh is the location of the Scottish Crime Campus]
"Alistair Duncan QC for Police Scotland said 'there there is no instructions not to cooperate but, as your Lordship is aware, serious allegations have been made against individual officers'"
Lord Tyre said:" To my mind … the fact the allegations are serious is not an excuse. They should be in a position to tell their side of the story"
Mr Duncan added: "They're prepared to do that and witness statements will be lodged…but on at least two occasions criminality has been alleged against officers"
Lord Tyre said officers have the usual rights in regards to criminal allegations "
Will we ever, ever get to a full knowledge of the entire 'Rangers' saga' ?
It's brought embarrassment to the Police and the COPFS, made liars of many journalists and sports editors, corrupted the BBC…..and destroyed any notion that our football is clean and governed honestly.
It gars me greet.
Menace 30th September 2020 at 12:00
‘.link to the Glasgow Times
‘But even they state the “Rangers were liquidated then relegated 3 divisions” I think not – they were expelled and had to reapply.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Careful, Menace, do not give any comfort to the new club by even remotely suggesting that they are the same Rangers as was Liquidated!
Rangers of 1872 were not expelled. They ceased to exist and were not around to ‘re-apply’.
SevsoScotland /TRFC as a newly created football club had to apply for the first time for membership of a league. Only on foot of being admitted into a league (the bottom division) were they then able to become a member of the SFA.
Whatever about the 'Glasgow Times', it's training young Hamish Morrison in its deceitful ways
"The answer provided by the show was Rangers FC, which was liquidated and relegated following a crisis in the club's finances. "
Liquidated but able to be relegated?
The boy's never going to be a Bernstein or Woodward if he is ready to write that kind of untrue nonsense, but he'll no doubt fit in well with his fellow-hacks.
But at least he won't be disciplined as an equivalent trainee in BBC Radio Scotland would undoubtedly be disciplined for even mentioning the subject.
You will all wish to join me in offering our condolences to Big Pink whose mother in law has passed away after a recent illness.
Thoughts are with him and his family as they endure a second elderly bereavement, his own mum having passed away earlier this year.
Menace 30th September 2020 at 12:00
On the triple relegation question posed on The Chase:
As all genuine football supporters know "relegation" in football is a specific term applied when a club, after a season finishes, ends up in a bottom position which sees them start next season in the division below. This clearly did not happen in 2012 so The Chase question is wrongly phrased.
The reason a club finishing in 2nd top spot in the top division found themselves with a new name and company number was that club in 2nd spot could no longer operate as a football club because of unpaid debts to HMRC that funded the players that helped get the club second place.
They were liquidated because they could not operate as a going concern with that level of debt owed. The judgement of HMRC was that best chance of recovering some of that debt was to sell the assets. It was also the only way other Scottish clubs could recover what they were owed. Sevco bought the assets (Ibrox etc)that enabled Sevco to operate a football club but in commercial terms Rangers were sold off to meet their debts in a process called liquidation.
Nor where Rangers demoted. There was no viable commercial entity to demote.
Finally UEFA did not recognise Sevco as a full member of the SFA with more than 3 years continuous membership of the SFA, a requirement to get a UEFA licence for CL/EL competition under Article 12 of UEFA FFP. That requirement was finally met in 2016 when 3 years had passed. I have no dog in the same club fight, but have a dog in setting out the rules that applied commercially and in football in 2012.
The genesis of the same club issue can be found in the secret 5 Way Agreement that Celtic accepted. Yet are “Rangers” fans grateful? They should be.
If proof were needed that our 'professional' game is a shambles we now have different rules for the numbers of subs allowed in different divisions, competitions and at different times of the season.
https://spfl.co.uk/news/press-release-use-of-five-subs
wottpi 30th September 2020 at 18:35
…. and the Lowland League comes up with a pragmatic solution for financially distressed clubs
Raman Bhardwaj@ramanbhardwajTV
We’re told Lowland League to start as planned on October 10. But, due to pandemic, clubs can decide to withdraw from playing before season kicks-off and in December (eg if still no fans) without any penalty. Champions Kelty to go again in LL after play-offs were scrubbed
wottpi 30th September 2020 at 18:35
‘..If proof were needed that our ‘professional’ game is a shambles ..’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””
One of the earliest football matches I was taken to was the Raith Rovers v Celtic semi-final at Hampden Park in the St Mungo Cup in1951.That was the first match I remember seeing where an outfield player had to put on the goalie’s jersey when the ‘keeper was stretchered off due to injury. No subs allowed
And in all my school and college football-playing days (and school game refereeing days -I shared a refereeing stint with Archie Macpherson in the early ’60s!) the idea of substitution of injured players seemed to be a no-no.
I followed the link you provided, wottpi, with some interest [ the ‘Americanisation’ of football into American football has always been a nightmare prospect as far as I am concerned !]
I followed up with an exploratory attempt to look at the history of football substitution. So far, I’ve found this little piece, which has (for me anyway) some surprising info, and is making me re-think my general position.
There is no ‘sport’ when a team is depleted by loss even of one player by injury, never mind two or three. So substitution for (genuine) injury seems fair.
But substitution for tactical reasons?
Have a wee read at this as a starting point:
https://www.football-stadiums.co.uk/articles/substitutions-in-football/
There must be ‘official’ IAFB, FIFA and UEFA treatises about the matter. It would be interesting to see whether the push for more ‘substitutions’ comes from the perspective of ‘Sporting Integrity’ [the game as an athletic skills challenge]or from a ‘commercial perspective’-the need to be financially successful and bugger the ‘sport’>
I’m a little bit conflicted, I have to say.
During an idle half hour(!) today, I was looking at the extent of the Australian wine industry ( having in recent years been able to visit a couple of vineyards in South Queensland) and discovered that there is such a thing as Wine Australia , and a GIC [Geographical Indications Committte] set up under the Wine Australia Act 2013.
Heaven knows how it came about, but I found myself away off on an absolutely unrelated tangent, because GIC is also the initials of a fund manager for the Government of Singapore!
And in some extraordinary way, I was into ESR ( the company that Stuart Gibson is co-executive director of ) having somehow got into ‘Mingtiandi’ (an Asian (Chinese business paper) to see this :
“GIC now committing A$480 million ($337 million) to a logistics development partnership in Australia, according to a stock exchange announcement on 24 September.
“The $453 billion sovereign fund will be upping its stake in the ESR Australia Logistics Partnership (EALP) to 80 percent with the news coming less than three months after it closed on an initial commitment to take a 45 percent slice of the core-plus platform. Hong Kong-listed ESR will retain a 20 percent stake in the vehicle, according to the company statement.”
This led me on into further non football related stuff, just out of interest in that whole world of high business, Cayman Island registered companies, Hong Kong stock exchange and Peoples Republic of China controls and the Singaporean Stock Exchange, and reflecting on the ‘Panama papers’ true journalism in relation to the World Cup and other western business .
And, oh what fun!- except that I have no idea how to interpret company accounts!( and absolutely not implying that ESR Cayman Ltd is other than an honest company)- I read the Annual Report 2019 of ESR.
And at Para 8 there is this:
8. DIRECTORS’ AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE’S REMUNERATION (continued)
which shows that Stuart Gibson was paid US $ 567,000.
https://files.services/files/431/2020/0429/20200429061501_84090226_en.pdf
As co-founder of the company that merged into ESR, of course, Gibson will have a substantial share holding in ESR as well as receiving a ‘remuneration’ as co-chief exec. The shares today were at Hong Kong dollars 24.05 (about £2.40)
Redwood Investment Co Ltd ( which Gibson was co-founder of) has a 12.8% share ( 389,934,285 shares)
I haven’t bothered to try to find out how many shares in Redmond Investment Co Gibson personally has.
(Cayman islands registered and such)
If nothing else, being on this blog has wonderfully expanded my mind.
And causes me to wonder why the hell guys like King of Castlemilk, and Whyte of Motherwell, and CG of wherever in Yorkshire, and the pin-striped suited borrower of 2 grand from Whyte, know about ‘business” in a way that a Parkhead, Glasgow tyke like me has absolutely no real understanding of.
Fascinating.
John Clark 30th September 2020 at 13:56
Rangers of 1872 were not expelled. They ceased to exist and were not around to ‘re-apply’.
========================================
I don't think they did cease to exist, the liquidation process is ongoing, so they still exist.
However they ceased to have any assets as those were sold off.
Thanks for the messages of support folks. Been a crappy time recently, but give me a few days and I'll get back in the saddle.
Very interesting stuff right now on the D&P prosecutions. Not sure they will be able to keep a lid on this. I'm sure the cover up is being prepared, but there are a lot of establishment interests at considerable divergence here.
May yet be the first thread that unravels the whole thing. We can but hope.
Homunculus 1st October 2020 at 17:41
'.I don't think they did cease to exist, the liquidation process is ongoing,'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Yes, Homunculus, you're absolutely correct and I should always remind myself to write 'they ceased to exist as a football club entitled to participate in Scottish professional Football' or some such, as I usually do!
More CoS business next week:
Rolls of Court of Session
LORD TYRE – T Sadler, Clerk
Tuesday 7th October
Starred Motion
Between 9.30am and 10.00am
CA86/19 David Grier v Philip Gormley
More CoS business next week:
Rolls of Court of Session
LORD TYRE – T Sadler, Clerk
Tuesday 7th October
Starred Motion
Between 9.30am and 10.00am
CA86/19 David Grier v Philip Gormley
My apologies for the duplicated copy and paste effort at 19.28 above!
And this very minute I've been texting my son in Oz about the 24 penalties in the AC Milan game!
That must be a world record!
As a reminder that the shameful goings on in 2012 are still very relevant today – and will probably hang over the game for decades to come…
we have The SFA President, Rod Petrie – the architect of the secretive, 5 Way Agreement,
asking the government to allow fans back into stadiums.
The very same fans he studiously ignored and treated with utter contempt back in 2012.
Petrie speaking on behalf of the Scottish game is offensive, IMO, and just confirms the game has neither learned anything nor “moved on” at all over the last 8 years.
At the Europa League draw earlier the UEFA official commentating mentioned that Rangers were finalists in 2008! Has he not heard what happened to that club? Mind you, he did have the decency to cough after he said it!
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/10/02/a-group-of-celtic-shareholders-decide-to-up-the-ante-on-resolution-12/
Phils latest
jimbo 2nd October 2020 at 15:16
……….
Reading from an Autocue, probably does not know the ibrox club or even what country they play in.
Cluster One 2nd October 2020 at 21:55
'.probably does not know the ibrox club or even what country they play in.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I take a different view, Cluster One.
Signore Giorgio Marchetti is high enough up the slippery chain of the UEFA hierarchy to know precisely who and what 'Rangers' are, as told to them by the real liars in the SFA!
That makes him complicit in the alleged corrupt award of a UEFA competitions licence to a club not entitled to such licence, and as guilty as anyone in Scottish Football governance of such alleged corruption.
'Nul points' for UEFA as an honest organisation in that particular matter might be possibly a just verdict.
I may email Signore Marchetti as an exercise in my rudimentary Italian language studies!
( Geez, what this covid business is making some of us turn to!)
This latest covid outbreak at Kilmarnock, with subsequent postponement of game(s) – and an SPFL investigation – does raise questions;
If clubs cannot keep a squad of c.30 players safe, then trying to give assurances that clubs can keep X thousands of fans safe in a stadium is simply a non-starter, IMO.
&
As far as I am aware, the SPFL has NOT secured agreement with the clubs about what happens this season if e.g. all games are postponed at some point – as per lockdown in March.
StevieBC 3rd October 2020 at 11:56
I don't see how it could be dealt with any other way than the way last season was completed. Though I would expect the season to be played out, even if it is entirely behind closed doors.
It was interesting to hear Doncaster this afternoon on Sportsound refer to the fact that the members of the SPFL did not see their way to passing the Board’s resolution that it should be given the complete powers necessary to make decisions urgently without reference to the members , if Covid-19 caused difficult problems, and that perhaps the Board might have to try again to seek such powers.
He mentioned the fact that there are many possible scenarios (scenarii?) and that it would be difficult to plan for all possible scenarios. That is true, of course.
But Football must be about the only ‘industry’ that seems not to have any plans to deal with any scenario, and a Board that has to wait for authorisation from the membership before it can do anything.
Not at all satisfactory from any perspective.
Listening to Sportsound yesterday just reinforced for me how stupid and selfish the football industry is in Scotland.
Squeals that the decisions not to allow fans is political and not based on the science highlighted the stupidity. Of course at the final stage it is political, it could be nothing else. If you use the science only then the outcome would be that we would all still be in total lock down and not the semi lock down we experienced in the spring. Science's aim would be to eliminate the virus completely and, at the present time, to eliminate it completely would be for no-one to have contact with any-one else for three to four weeks. Of course, that would be a definite no-go. So the decision of how close to that we go has to be made by politicians. They could decide to just let it run it's course, let those people susceptible just die and eventually the death rate would drop when there were many less susceptible people left. Another definite no-go in a society that depends on politicians needing to be re-elected.
So the balance has to be somewhere in between and that means prioritising what is allowed to open and what is not.
Yesterday we had our football administrators arguing that the sport is a priority business. NO live entertainment is a priorty and should be open. It was the only whitaboot with any relevance yesterday, Hampden and the Royal Albert Hall but even then the argument was nonsensical. The conclusion shouldn't be to open a football ground but to close the concert hall.
If we allow fans in to grounds before everyone has been vaccinated then we are being vastly irresponsible. The opening of pubs has shown that there are many stupid people out there who will not put safety first. The reaction by the government to place 10pm closing time magnified that greatly if you watch the closing time footage.
Business will suffer and society/government should recognise that and act with a view to deal with that and not ignore the process that COVID19 will take.
The unemployment figures being quoted are comparable to what we in the older generation lived through in the late 70s early 80s. It was difficult but it wasn't armageddon. Unemployed footballers are no more disadvantaged than unemployed shopworkers. In fact those from the top echelons of the game have had the opportunity to build a rainy day account. To hear McCann stating that footballers still have mortgages to pay is sickening. Other sectors' workers couldn't afford a mortgage when they were employed never mind million plus pound homes.
Let's cut the call for football to be given priority just because we are missing it and face the facts.
At least the Scottish, senior game is consistent: consistently stoopid!
Whilst nobody would expect all possibilities to be planned for, it would seem reasonable to use the lockdown in March for "lessons learned" and a plan if that was repeated.
IIRC, it was c.75% of SPL league games had already been completed: surely the SPFL could have agreed that in future if at least 75% of games are completed then the league can be called, if necessary?
If the SPL, [and the other 3 divisions], were to face lockdown in March next year – it would probably result in a repeat of the public mudslinging between clubs and personal attacks on club executives and the SPFL management.
That very public show of mistrust in the game was yet another lowpoint in the Scottish game this year.
As an aside: is it any surprise that the SFA and SPFL struggle to attract new sponsors….?
With so little being written on here just now hopefully I can be forgiven for going completely off topic as a follow up to my last post.
What I wrote was from the perspective of what the majority of the population want, that the virus is beaten. That is not my position. For me the desired option is for no action and for the virus to do it's worst.
Before COVID appeared on the scene the big issue was the damage being done to this earth. So many suggestions from so many people but to my mind nothing but sticking plasters. Driving a diesel car does not destroy the atmosphere, eating meat doesn't, coal fired power stations don't, dropping a piece of plastic doesn't wipe out the whales, using slug pellets in your garden will not see our song birds disappear. All things are only bad when they exist in huge numbers and these huge numbers all come about if huge numbers of human beings occupy this earth. We have learned to beat nature and we are suffering for that.
As far as nature is concerned it is the human race that is the epidemic. Every other species is controlled by nature. Barn owls hatch two eggs but if the numbers survive till next season are large the territory that belongs to each new couple has to shrink to accommodate them, less food is available to raise two chicks so only one gets fed. In the following seasons the population drops and the territory sizes increase again. All is balanced out. Now compare that to what the our race does. We gouge out the remaining wild areas to plant more food. Not just for food but for ingredients of makeup, detergents and minerals to make the high tech products that we now consider essential to our life.
When these wild areas were intact there were was much contained there that we were unaware of, good and bad. Now, pharmaceutical companies are searching the remaining areas for natural drug sources but there are also many diseases in there that we have never come into contact with. Reducing the size of the wild areas is forcing animals to come out to hunt for food when previously they would steer well clear of open areas. They are coming into contact with humans and bringing with them viruses the majority of which are harmless to humans. But occasionally that is not the case. AIDS, ebola, SARS and now COVID19 are all believed to have come from species in the wild. I recently listened to a documentary regarding CV19 where one line jumped out at me.
"It is not CV19 that should worry us it is what is going to be the next virus."
So our choice is clear. The road we are on only has one end unless we vastly reduce the world population. Unfortunately, that choice is nearly impossible to take. All that has given us this life of "freedom" and luxury has to be destroyed and not by war. That kills the wrong age group. No one will make these decisions while we enjoy democracy because it would be suicide for the politicians involved. The financial institutions will block any reduction in our luxuries as it would destroy the world economy, as would having a greatly reduced population.
I do not see how we can achieve what is needed unless we let nature do its work. COVID19 could even be seen as the ideal answer because of the age groups(my age group included) that it destroys.
I know I will be looked on as barbaric with these views but let me assure you that doing nothing to stop the destruction of our planet will be just as barbaric but result from our own individual greed and self interest.
AH! but that's someone else's problem!
Mickey Edwards 4th October 2020 at 11:54
——————————————————————————-
The herd immunity advocation , so let's all sit back and let it happen. F*ck the NHS when they have to deal with a tsunami of Cvid infect patients that inhibits them from effectively treating cancer patients and children due to lack of resources. The effort that we are called upon as a society is not to 'defeat' the virus, it is to slow it down and make it manageable. Following your logic then should anyone who contracts Cvid be left to their own immune system to either live or die? As to the virus being natural rather than synthetic..hmm. Your overarching point regarding the environment and selfishness is acknowledged.
Mickey Edwards 4th October 2020 at 11:54
When mankind first reared up on its hind legs the world , our Earth , was a totally different place than it is now . The planet has evolved , as has man . I don't think we are totally innocent of damaging the planet but don't think we're majorly to blame – other natural processes do worse than us . The Earth is reputed to be 5.45 billion years old , and anatomically modern humans only 300,000 years ago . Temperatures have been a lot warmer and a lot colder in our past , and although the planet is currently warming , we are due another ice age in the next 10,000 years ( some scientists argue that we are in the midst of a mini ice age , and point to the cold wave that hit North America in the winter of 2017/18 as possible proof of this theory ). Some interesting reading here to pass the time until the football starts on the tv !
https://geographyandyou.com/when-is-the-next-ice-age-due/
gunnerb and paddy
It's all very well making the "humane" argument but until we recognise that our species is overpopulating the planet and then we face even more inhumane consequences.
As to reading up about it can I suggest that you download a copy of The Limits of Growth by the Club of Rome. This group of scientists and industrialists(no politicians) put a model together in the days before computers were available to them and published around 1970. They have since revisited their work with the aid of modern computers and their predictions came out the same with the crunch times being in 2030s. They have in the last few years made the minor adjustment extending it to the 2040s. Such consistency in long term research with very little variation in the predictions over a period of fifty years is veryy rare in science.
This is not a religious group predicting armageddon but experts in many spheres predicting when individual resources will run out. The increase in recycling technology is what saw the ten years change in the conclusions but even 100% recycling would see a negligible prolonging of the date.
The use and destruction of irreplaceable natural resources is happening at an exponential rate and this last phase will come hard and fast.
As to overloading the NHS, that only happens if they are fighting to save the lives of COVID patients. Good palliative care, instead of curative, would put less stress on the system. Curing patients of this disease takes bed space of months for patients who will face further months of recovery at home. We are finding many people that are suffering from "Long" COVID whose life quality is greatly reduced. As is their resistance to the effects of other illnesses.
The simple fact is that our population is not prepared to accept the large increase in taxes that it would take to be able to create an health service that can cope with what it faces. And for me it is another symptom of the overpopulation problem.
gunnerb 4th October 2020 at 17:49
The herd immunity advocation , so let’s all sit back and let it happen.
=====================================================
I’m not sure that’s what “herd immunity” means. Though it seems to be the perception.
This is from the NHS
Herd immunity
Having a vaccine also benefits your whole community through “herd immunity”.
If enough people are vaccinated, it’s harder for the disease to spread to those people who cannot have vaccines. For example, people who are ill or have a weakened immune system.
This is from a different site, which the NHS link to, really just a tiny bit more detail.
What is herd immunity?
When a high percentage of the population is vaccinated, it is difficult for infectious diseases to spread, because there are not many people who can be infected. For example, if someone with measles is surrounded by people who are vaccinated against measles, the disease cannot easily be passed on to anyone, and it will quickly disappear again. This is called ‘herd immunity’, ‘community immunity’ or ‘herd protection’, and it gives protection to vulnerable people such as newborn babies, elderly people and those who are too sick to be vaccinated.
Homunculus
You are correct, that is the official definition but it can be broadened and has been by our own government at the beginning of this.
The same result as the vaccination method can be achieved by allowing as many fit people as possible to catch CV19 while the vulnerable isolate themselves. In the end whether it is by vaccination or by suffering the illness the individuals will end up with antibodies and will not be a risk to others. Unfortunately the gamble that the government were prepared to take relied on immunity being lifelong as it is with the likes of TB. These last months have shown that is not the case and that it is more like flu in that respect. It does have a bigger problem in that it appears not to be seasonal like the flu and that means once a year vaccination will probably not be enough.
Mickey Edwards 5th October 2020 at 11:34
'..Unfortunately the gamble that the government were prepared to take relied on immunity being lifelong .'
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Was there really a point in time , Mickey Edwards, that the Government here or in most countries [leaving aside individual states in the USA) was seriously thinking of shaping up to follow the 'broadened view' of 'herd immunity?' in the sense of letting it sweep through the population , taking with it the 'weak' , rather than go into lockdown with all the economic and social consequences that lockdown entailed?
There was, is, undoubtedly a body of opinion ( particularly in the USA ) that advocated ,and advocates, that 'lockdown ' would possibly cause far greater social disruption than could be justified.
But I don't think the UK government in the event really considered adopting that opinion?
The really striking thing is that very few governments in the world in the world did not take the Corona virus extremely seriously, because the scientific opinion was so universally shared.
Science is, of course, not infallible; but still….
JC
During the first few weeks of CV19 hitting these shores the politicians did indeed give the impression that it would be the way to go. Unfortunately the indications came from combining the statements from different politicians. For instance, I recall a time where Boris was stating that there was no need for extreme measures to be taken. That was shortly followed by lesser MPs of the same party talking to the press about herd immunity and its advantages.
So yes, to my mind, it was given serious consideration. Might have been just dipping their toes in the water though.
"in the sense of letting it sweep through the population , taking with it the 'weak' , rather than go into lockdown"
Also, JC, is that such an alien idea, an approach that has been regularly endorsed by governments throughout the world. Weakness in those cases are not physical but social. How many times have people of our age group put the younger generation at risk of death while ensuring that we are OK.
I'm talking about war of course, but the outcome is the same. People in power sending the young to their death behind the reason of the national economy.
Mickey Edwards 5th October 2020 at 11:34
Homunculus
You are correct, that is the official definition but it can be broadened and has been by our own government at the beginning of this.
==================================
By “official definition” I think you mean “definition”.
What the Government actually did was lie, or at the very least mislead about what it meant. You can’t just change a scientific definition then use your new version to make your propaganda more believable.
The idea that you just let the disease run it’s course and kill as many people as is required until everyone who is left is immune is horrific. It certainly isn’t what “herd immunity means”. Herd immunity is about protecting the weak, not just letting them die.
Anyway, as you said this isn’t about Scottish football.
Homunculus
"Anyway, as you said this isn't really about Scottish football. "
Neither are blank pages.
Mickey Edwards 5th October 2020 at 13:05
Homunculus
"Anyway, as you said this isn't really about Scottish football. "
Neither are blank pages.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Except of course when it is the "SFA's handbook of honest governance"
Another 42,250,000 shares issued in RIFC on 30 September @20p a share, raising £8,450,000
Don't know who has bought them yet.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC437060/filing-history
It is not clear whether the new shares have raised cash or repaid loans. We will have to wait for the accounts for that information. The new shares represent around 14% of the enlarged capital.
The "share information" page on the TRFC website hasn't been updated as yet with the effects of the share issue.
The first Covid impact on results in Scotland.
https://twitter.com/KilmarnockFC/status/1313164620950122497
Falkirk awarded a 3-0 victory , with Kilmarnock's request for a postponement denied.
A pragmatic decision which must have required the grudging consent of Kilmarnock because the Board were not empowered by the SPFL membership to make such a decision.
Possibly also may indicate that Kilmarnock pled guilty to some breach or other of the covid protocols?
John Clark 5th October 2020 at 18:35
A pragmatic decision which must have required the grudging consent of Kilmarnock because the Board were not empowered by the SPFL membership to make such a decision.
==================================
That referred to the league competition, not to the Betfred Cup. Indeed the SPFL had previously intimated that 3-0 defeats would been awarded against defaulting clubs who were unable to play their Betfred Cup ties because of Covid.
https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-statement-46963
The SPFL is basically just doing what they said they were going to do.
"If a club is unable or unwilling to field a team in a Betfred Cup Round 1 group stage tie, or fails to provide sufficient negative test results, the club concerned will forfeit the match (on the basis of a 3-0 defeat)."
easyJambo 5th October 2020 at 16:38
It is not clear whether the new shares have raised cash or repaid loans."…
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The latest trade shown via J P Jenkins is
"..18.00GBp 714 20/12/2019
Would JP Jenkins necessarily have been involved if it was just a debt for equity loan repayment(s)
Or perhaps Stuart Gibson has come through on his promise?
Just a footnote to RIFC share ownership, I note for the first time that Alastair Johnston holds 2,499,940 shares (equivalent to £500k). It hasn’t been reported previously in RIFC accounts, so I can only assume that he acquired them at the time of the previous share issues in September and November 2019. He may have paid cash or had a loan converted at that point.
One thing that can be ruled out is Dave King accepting shares for his 5m loan as that would push him well over the 30% limit and trigger a new offer , something I'm sure he would avoid like the plague . His own company https://za.investing.com/equities/micromega-holdings-ltd-chart has been showing some strange activity, a massive spike in June (on low volume) has all but evaporated and if it was a head fake to attract new investment then it seems to have failed . King remains in financial trouble and he could well have called in his loan hence the cash raised at Ibrox . I suspect the auditors were refusing to sign off the accounts unless substantial cash was raised and faced with losing everything the Board has gone all in , kicked the can down the road and will be relying on a Galactico being sold in the January transfer window. What's the definition of insanity again ? I am astonished that in this environment that they have managed to raise that amount . The alternative that it was a debt for equity swap would leave us questioning who had debt? I cannot imagine that Mike Ashley or Close Bros would be interested in worthless shares rather than the cash they are owed . The annual accounts will be more interesting than usual this year.
easyJambo 5th October 2020 at 16:38
“..It is not clear whether the new shares have raised cash or repaid loans.”
Timtim 5th October 2020 at 21:28
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Looking more closely at the form SH01(ef) filed with Companies House today , I see that ‘no shares were allotted other than for cash’.[I’ve never paid attention to that rubric before!
Presumably that means ( from what I have read elsewhere) that the issue in question actually did raise new cash, and was not in repayment/part repayment of loans?
John Clark 5th October 2020 at 21:48
=============================
I think that probably relates to trades where the shares are paid for in other ways, for example shares in another company.
Debt for equity is surely a cash sale, as you are reducing the cash you have to pay out by doing it. The same effect as bringing cash in.
Just my guess though, I'm happy to be corrected.
I'm just more confused at this new share issue.
On the face of it, I'd agree that it would seem that this activity is related to auditor concerns.
I'm more curious now to see the RIFC 19/20 Accounts due at the end of this month.
Homunculus 5th October 2020 at 22:23
'..Just my guess though, I'm happy to be corrected. '
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My 'reading' thus far has only ben this:
"Issuing shares for consideration other than cash
A company can issue shares for consideration other than cash. Common examples include issuing shares in return for property, assets the company needs or (e.g. in a takeover) shares in another company. CA 2006, sec582(1)provides that shares allotted by a company, and any premium on them, may be paid up in money or money's worth (including goodwill and know-how). If shares are issued for non-cash consideration, this must be stated on the return of allotments sent to Companies House (Form SH01) and details of the consideration must be supplied."
https://www.companylawclub.co.uk/issuing-shares-for-consideration-other-than-cash
What I draw from that is it that if shares are issued for other than cash, the fact has to be recorded on the SH01(ef)
But I'm still very much in infant class when it comes to trying to get some proper understanding of what people like CW and certain football club people have a basic instinct and intuition for!
A couple of things stand out to me on the recent SH01.
"(including bonus shares)" which may indicate a proportion of the share allocation were not bought but given free as a bonus, e.g. buy one get one free.
Also, "Non-Redeemable", why buy shares you cannot then later sell?
Unless perhaps the purchaser is after the underlying assets??? Which again begs the question; who has bought them?
As usual, time will tell
normanbatesmumfc 6th October 2020 at 10:59
'..Also, "Non-Redeemable", why buy shares you cannot then later sell?'
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I think the 'non-redeemable refers to the company not having agreed that it will or may to buy them back from the shareholder at a future date.
The shareholder can still sell them in the ordinary way, I think. And they appear to be useful if Liquidation happens.
But, hell's bells, trying to make sense of all the different kinds of shares is difficult.
No wonder there's plenty of scope for shysters and conmen in the world of business.
easyJambo 5th October 2020 at 19:45
Just a footnote to RIFC share ownership, I note for the first time that Alastair Johnston holds 2,499,940 shares (equivalent to £500k).
……………….
Now Mr king said at his last AGM that he would rather hold shares in a club than a holding company, and that they had a working group working on it.
Mr Alastair Johnston the last time i looked was a person of significant control in that company.Mr Alastair Johnston has never been passed as a fit and proper person to be involved with the ibrox club since 2012, how would that go with the SFA if his shares are transfered from the holding company to the club?
easyJambo 5th October 2020 at 16:38
The “share information” page on the TRFC website hasn’t been updated as yet with the effects of the share issue.
………………..
3 pages of not much information Oct 5, 2020.
Forfar has now fallen foul of the Covid testing regime and has had to forfeit their game tonight against Dundee, with a 3-0 win awarded to Dundee.
Never mind, Neil Doncaster is heading the Betfred scoring charts with two hat tricks to his name already.
Cluster One 6th October at 17:51
Mr Mac Giolla bháin makes reference to paying off Dave King which is supported imho by the cryptic reference to exchange controls vis-a-vis what?? by Mr Low.
The last few share allotments have all had "bonus shares , this time around there were 30.2m /42.2m .
which begs the question how much was converted/raised was it 6.04m or 8.4m . The suggestion that King lends 5m and is repaid 8.4m just 1 year later seems fanciful , even Close would offer better rates than that (approx 65% APR) however to get 6m back from a 5m loan would equate to 20% which would seem "Closer" to the mark . I hope that is as clear as mud
So now Edouard has tested positive. It will be interesting to see how Celtic and the SPFL handle that one.
Now I wonder who Celtic are due to play in their next game? Will it go ahead if Celtic don’t have GPS tracking on his contacts and Test and Protect say that the whole squad has to self isolate.
Testing itself could be an issue given the international break if players are away, even with Scotland.
easyJambo 6th October 2020 at 23:32
So now Edouard has tested positive. It will be interesting to see how Celtic and the SPFL handle that one.
==========%%%===========
Ask Peter !
I note that Peter took a step back from the frontline when it came pushing the Scottish games case for a return for fans and/or bailout at the weekend past. Two of his friends, Doncaster (SPFL) and Mulraney (SFA) appeared on live radio to deliver a significant broadside to those in government.
I think that over time, national governments are increasingly going to devolve more interpretation/implementation around Covid policy to more localised political administrations and where possible, to governing bodies in charge of X, Y or Z, eg. SFA/SPFL.
ps. I hope Edouard gets well soon.
RC
I’m sure French Eddy and, of course, your ‘bromancer’ Peter, will be delighted with your expression of good wishes.
Forgive my cynicism here, but your ‘sincerity’ sounds a bit like Joe Biden, and the mainstream media in the US, wishing Trump good health.
My apologies if you meant that you hoped he wouldn’t miss the upcoming game v SEVCO.
IMO, the virtual radio silence around the RIFC share issue speaks volumes!
Issuing c.£8.5M of new shares is a pretty big deal for any Scottish club.
But, no mention on the TRFC website and nothing in the SMSM so far, (unless I’ve missed it?).
On the face of it: you would think that a significant share issue – and during these tough times – would be trumpeted loudly by both TRFC and the SPFL?
The silence does suggest that the upcoming RIFC financials might be more desperate than usual?
And, this non-reporting does raise the other query: if our fellow Internet Bampot Easyjambo hadn’t highlighted this Companies House update – would anybody know about it today?
Well, you wouldn’t hear about it in the SMSM – including the BBC and Tom English, (who apparently “craves” journalistic honesty!)
If only they had taken the £15m for Alfred on offer from more than 100 clubs.
Maybe then they wouldn't be scrambling around issuing confetti
I can't see Dave taking shares in return for his loan. But who knows. Desperate times; Desperate measures.
It could be new money because they won't get a going concern sign off without it and then the accounts would have to be drawn up on a "break up basis".
But who has that kind of money and is willing to more or less write it off with an economic crisis on the horizon?
StevieBC 7th October 2020 at 11:33
'..IMO, the virtual radio silence around the RIFC share issue speaks volumes!'
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I ,years ago now, criticised the 'business' reporters of the BBC before now for their (his?)absolute failure to report on the whole mucky, mucky business of the collapse of RFC of 1872 and its liquidation . To the shame of individual staff of the BBC Lips were zipped to the detriment , I believe speaking for myself of their professional integrity as 'journalists'.
And of course lips those lips have have remained zipped as far as exposure and full truth telling about the absolute business disgrace of SDM and the whole bunch of subsequent chancers from CW down to the latest 'investor' looking to make money on the back of a sports lie that claims that their business enterprise set up in 2012 is something that it is not.
No surprises then that the financial doings of RFC plc are not at all critically questioned any more now than in 2011/12.
There is a deep deep desperation in the media and in Scottish Football to maintain the double myth – that TRFC is RFC of 1872 and that it is as rich as Croesus Murray claimed RFC of 1872 to have been – up to the point where his disgraceful boasting was exposed as being based on untruths.
……. and now Covid hits the Scotland squad, with Stuart Armstrong positive and Kieran Tierney and Ryan Christie self isolating for 14 days. All three will miss Thursday’s game.
Bogs Dollox 7th October 2020 at 13:04
If only they had taken the £15m for Alfred on offer from more than 100 clubs…
====================
BD, to be fair, it was only 34 clubs,
…or is it 36 today if we include 'PSG via Qatar'?
And as far as covid goes: it's already proving problematic to safeguard players domestically.
Adding international games, (& European games), to the mix must multiply the risk of players/squads being infected?
Shirley, protection of domestic leagues must be the number one priority for all clubs in Europe and globally…?
StevieBC 7th October 2020 at 15:43
Shirley, protection of domestic leagues must be the number one priority for all clubs in Europe and globally…?
===============================
It is still unclear what the latest two week suspension in the 5 most affected Health Board areas, of adult contact sports, means for football. Professional sports are exempted.
Does that just mean the elite league (Premiership), or is the whole of the SPFL deemed as professional, or does professional extend to semi-professional clubs in the SPFL, pyramid and junior clubs?
There are serious questions to be asked of the JRG if it is the Premiership and no-one else. After all the SFA’s PMGB has representations form the lower leagues of the SPFL, the Highland and Lowland Leagues.
If they have protected the Premiership because of their testing regime but have sacrificed all other football, then competitions such as the Betfred Cup should be scrapped, and the start of the Championship, L1, L2, LL, EOS, WOS etc. delayed still further.
It will be ironic in the extreme if the only league allowed to continue is the one with the most cases.
easyJambo 7th October 2020 at 14:56
……. and now Covid hits the Scotland squad, with Stuart Armstrong positive and Kieran Tierney and Ryan Christie self isolating for 14 days. All three will miss Thursday’s game.
===========%%%============
After Peter spoke to his friends at the SPFL and somehow, by a slice of incredible luck (effectively a 4/1 shot,..see below*), Celtic managed to land the date they wanted for the first Old Firm match, I’m sure there was a smile, a nod and a wink shared amongst friends on the 6th floor at Hampden.
“The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men,……. Gang aft agley”
Robert Burns
That said, much can still happen in 10 days……..
ps. Best of wishes for the health of the individuals involved re.Covid news.
As for Scotland, the Robertson/Tierney conundrum is gone for the time being. Hopefully, at least IMO, it will mean a conventional back four.
reasonablechap 7th October 2020 at 16:09
Oh ye of great wisdom and an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of your pal Peter’s brain , will Edouard have to isolate for 14 days in France prior to returning to 14 days isolation here ? Will Peter shut down Scottish football over this period in the interests of sporting integrity and basic fairness ?
And what Ian Blair actually said was that there were “around” 4 possible dates .
But league secretary Blair has now insisted it would have been impossible for the SPFL to accommodate the request.
Speaking on BBC Sportsound, he said: “It wouldn’t have been possible for us to do it.
“The first one has to be somewhere between round one and round 11 and when you look at international and European dates there are only around four dates you can put it in . ”
So , could have been three , coulds have been five . Why did your pal Peter insist that it was to be a choice of four dates , and how did he select them (criteria )?
Paddy
Try reading my post slowly.
As for the perceived sleekitness of the media in not comprehensively covering the issue of shares at Ibrox as headline news…….It’s certainly more newsworthy than other recent avenues of a dark light blue conspiracy on here, such as Andy Halliday appearing so much in the media and the colour of Rangers socks….!
….it’s almost as though there is a pandemic ripping through the sport, a transfer window slamming shut and an upcoming Euros21 play-off semi-final for Scotland competing for coverage.
When more detail becomes public, there might be something worth discussing.
Ha!
The Internet Bampots are fully aware that the Ibrox club manages the SMSM sports pages e.g. via daily copy/paste instructions. The interminable Morelos 'transfer' saga is just one pathetic example.
More significantly, the Ibrox club manages the SMSM by dictating which topics are NOT allowed to be reported. We all witnessed this in 2011/12 WRT to Rangers' impending financial implosion, and more recently WRT the shocking Castore fiasco – ripping off supporters – has been glossed over.
Now, this site is being 'directed' as to which topics are 'news worthy' and suitable for discussion – and which topics are not!
SFM 'is open to all' and ad hominem attacks don't add anything to the debate… so I'll just leave it there.
Rangers chairman Douglas Park has revealed that his side's funding gap of £10 million – highlighted by Dave King at the club’s last AGM – has already been filled. (from May 2020)
Maybe the reason the Press have been quiet on the new shares is because it was merely a debt for equity swap from last seasons shortfall and reason enough not to publish any interim accounts . No point trumpeting about money that has already been spent when there is still a queue of people waiting for their slice of the pie . That's Memorial Walls, Close leasing, Mike Ashley,deferred wages, outstanding transfer payments and issues with Hummel Elite and possibly Castore still to be addressed . Did I miss anyone? well probably . I'm still not sure if they have sorted out the problems with the roof . King did acknowledge they were an issue last year . The financial problems haven't gone away , if anything they will have got worse without any match day income especially from euro ties and the inability to raid the collecting tins from armed forces day . In normal times £8.4m raised from selling shares would have been a large talking point so it is strange why zero mention has been made. More detail needed? as we know details and facts are not a requirement for the media to spin a positive story especially when the alternative is a possible move to PSG via the Middle East according to an unnamed source .
I am occasionally reminded by Mrs C that I'm a throwback to the male chauvinistic generation of my old man. "You're just like your father" is a sentence that has occasionally passed her lips in tones that do not signify that it's a favourable comparison!
I have never been a Tam Cowan of some years ago ( when Tam was 'disciplined' by the BBC for being politically incorrect for objecting to Fir Park allowing women's fitba'), but I've never been more than indifferent to it in the same general kind of way that I'm indifferent to Cricket or Rugby League : no harm to it , but doesn't do anything for me ( although I was pleased at the national team's achievements a few years ago).
But when listening to Leeanne Crichton on Sportsound tonight I believed I was listening to the next regular host of BBC Sportsound when Richard Gordon retires to pursue an acting career- (he's 60 now, and has, I believe, a hankering for amdram!)
Leeanne was superb in discussing the options for Clarke following the covid problem coming on top of the already late injury problems he faces vis-a-vis the game against Israel tomorrow.
She was, it seemed to me ,far better at analysis, diagnosis, and prescription than any of the chaps. Very well prepared , highly articulate, good-humoured, and brave enough to defend and hold to her opinions, and made the guys reel back a little.
I believe that if something happened to Steve Clarke before tomorrow's game, Leeanne could take immediate charge of the team selection, and fire the team up to give the performance of their lives.
And she was equally good alongside Richard at tonight's game between St Mirren v Partick Thistle.(What a result, btw)
I have not been paid for this endorsement, and, of course, I admit that I have ,on a personal level, all the time in the world for Richard Gordon going back long before the liquidation of Rangers of 1872 ..
Statement O’Clock at Parkhead…..
Full statement at …..http://www.celticfc.net/news/18629
It begins…….
FOLLOWING today’s news regarding Ryan Christie, he has reiterated his adherence to all relevant protocols while on International duty.
In light of this, Celtic confirmed today that it aims to open dialogue with the Scottish Government and other authorities to fully understand the self-isolation procedures for those players who continue to deliver negative test results, as Ryan has.
Sounds like Celtic want to self isolate from the rules.
JC totally agree, and no I bet you're not related to Leeanne Crichton.
I was singing her praises here last season: I had watched the BBC TV Sportscene Results programme on a Saturday afternoon. Hadn't seen the programme in years so didn't recognise the host, or the two pundits – one of whom I later found out was Leeanne Crichton.
Very impressive and – obviously – knew her stuff.
StevieBC 7th October 2020 at 22:20
‘..JC totally agree, and no I bet you’re not related to Leeanne Crichton’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Absolutely not, but maybe I woudn’t mind being related to such a talented person.
In an idle moment today I looked into the UEFA website to see where Lord FFSFoulkes was with his review of football in Europe, which I mentioned at the tail end of August or thenabouts.
I couldn’t navigate my way to the relevant page , and found myself exploring the membership of the various UEFA committees.
What I found about Scotland’s representation on committees was this:
Ethics and Disciplinary Committee: Neil Doncaster
National Associations Committee: co-opted member, Alan Macrae
Referees’ Committee: Hugh Dallas (deputy chairman)
National Teams’ Committee: Rod Petrie
Youth and Amateur Football Committee :Ian Maxwell
(There are other Committees on which Malky McKay , Andrew Niven , Dr John McLean, and Chris Rawlings serve; but I know nothing of any of them except Dr McLean who appears to have done a wonderful job on the medical side of trying to get football alive again)
But, objectively speaking, looking at Scotland’s reps in UEFA, doesn’t ones heart sink?
Maxwell, Macrae, Doncaster, Petrie and Dallas?
What price sporting int
‘LORD TYRE – T Sadler, Clerk
Tuesday 7th October’
That was what the Rolls of Court said.
And, in the words of a wonderful character in Patrick O’Brian’s Aubrey/Maturin series, I say “Balls and bang me ar.e’ !
There was I, up at the crack of dawn (relatively speaking) to make sure I could get the ‘virtual hearing ‘on the phone.
Damn the bit of it!
Tuesday was not the 7th.
Some level of inefficiency, my lords, in the SCTS, which I humbly pray may be corrected!
FFS!
And in relation to the recent RIFC plc share allotment, I have to say that RIFC plc does not appear to have a website on which one can find info about its directors and major shareholders
I have asked Companies House about this. They should be able to say.
John Clark
And in relation to the recent RIFC plc share allotment, I have to say that RIFC plc does not appear to have a website on which one can find info about its directors and major shareholders
I have asked Companies House about this
=========%%%==========
A penny for what the Companies House folk say when they receive another e-mail from you !
Free Tip: Before you send your next missive,…try harder looking for what you claim not to exist.
It’s on the club website. One click away, at the bottom of the page
https://www.rangers.co.uk/investor-information/3xiJwTahGEhZWGZAUcKMy1
The most influential and powerful political operator in Scottish football appears to be confused.
Here is an extract from the Celtic statement of 11/08/2020…
“…We have led the way in working with the football authorities and Scottish Government to establish the most rigorous, effective protocols and working practices, which ultimately led to the resumption of football. We could have done no more in this area….”
http://www.celticfc.net/news/18417
Yesterday Celtic released another statement (link in recent post) part of which contradicted their previous.
“…Celtic confirmed today that it aims to open dialogue with the Scottish Government and other authorities to fully understand the self-isolation procedures for those players who continue to deliver negative test results, as Ryan has….”
The truth would appear to me moreso that there is no confusion, Peter doesn’t do confused. It’s more a case of self-interest and putting the availability of players in front of public health.
Last Saturday on radio, Peter’s friends at the governing bodies made a very public case, putting pressure on government to ease restrictions for fans being allowed into stadiums and/or a government bailout of sorts for the game. Fair enough.
But this latest push regards a players availability, that Peter is very much a part of, appears to me to be well out of order given the context.
Public health very much trumps a footballers availability for a game.
Oh, Peter….when you are next leading the way regards working with the authorities in establishing ‘the roolz’,….pay attention, so you as you fully understand them.
"…Public health very much trumps a footballers availability for a game…"
============
SFA PROBE Rangers ‘facing SFA probe’ over claims NINE players didn’t have testing all-clear ahead of Dundee United game.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5847276/rangers-sfa-probe-nine-players-testing/
reasonablechap 8th October 2020 at 01:48
"…It’s on the club website. One click away, at the bottom of the page"
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
No, that's a link to the website of The Rangers Football Club Ltd, company number 425159, not to the plc that is its parent company.
RIFC plc is not the parent company of the liquidated RFC of 1872.
John
This is your post that I replied to…
“And in relation to the recent RIFC plc share allotment, I have to say that RIFC plc does not appear to have a website on which one can find info about its directors and major shareholders
I have asked Companies House about this…”
The following is the first paragraph from the link I provided…
“This is the area of the Rangers website for information about Rangers International Football Club PLC, the holding company of The Rangers Football Club Limited.”
I’ll leave it there, but please let us know what Companies House come back to you with
If King has taken a debt for equity deal then it would push his holding to over 35% and trigger a new offer so I think we can rule that out . If Park has converted a loan it would take his holding to 26% giving him that crucial 25% that gives him extra powers. Whoever has the new shares and I expect them to be split among a handful of Board members then if it excludes King then King' shareholding drops to 22% and he loses that control on issues that require a 75% vote. I believe the current share deal would need King's permission and he's not the type to give something away without getting something back. Of course if it was a choice between giving up his control and an administration then he wouldn't have much of a choice. So to sum up , Directors agreed to fund the shortfall in the short term and would be repaid from incoming transfer fees from the sale of Morelos/Kent/Tavernier /Kamara or whatever superstar the Press could drum up interest in . When it became obvious that no such sales were happening then converting the loans to equity was the only option to satisfy the auditors. The January window is now crucial hence the Press not letting up on their advertising campaign.
Timtim 8th October 2020 at 10:59
The Qatar window is open until the 25th apparently.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/alfredo-morelos-given-rangers-transfer-22803117
This is a funny wee quote.
Morelos is understood to have turned down a potential £13m move to the Gulf state during the summer, at a time when Lille and a host of other European big spenders were monitoring his situation at Rangers.
Not Rangers, Morelos turned it down. Are we supposed to take it that Rangers were willing to accept it.
This is a good bit as well
But the Qatari interest has remained strong throughout and Al Duhail believe they may be able to tempt him to move to Doha with the extra lure of a potential fast-track move to Paris Saint-Germain through an established link-up between the ownerships of both clubs.
I wonder who he is going to partner, or indeed replace, Neymar or Mbappé.
I meant to say, where is the figure of £8m for 40m RIFC PLC shares coming from.
The PLC is de-listed, the shares aren't traded on a market, so why are people saying they have a specific value.
Unless it is fulfilling an existing agreement, where the price of 20p per share was part of the deal.
It's entirely possible that people are just making it up of course.
Continually issuing shares, to pay off loans, which were required to keep the business afloat cannot really be described as a sustainable business model.
Those Directors converting their loans to shares have accepted the figure of 20p , this gives the illusion that the market cap of that company is valued at 60m which all helps to balance the books where the reality is the shares are worth far far less thus the company is worth far far less and is actually trading while insolvent. On a properly regulated market this wouldn't happen which is one of the reasons King removed them from such scrutiny and no NOMAD would be associated with them . King remains a person of significant control and is cold shouldered by the City which continues to limit their ability to raise funds .
It's Russian Roulette in the boardroom , in order to have any future and attract outside investment then they need to get rid of King completely and the only way to do so is to buy him out . At the current rate of 20p it will take just over 13m to be rid of him . The value of the club* is very much like the club* itself , an illusion of something else entirely. King is in no position to write off his holding , he is no billionaire , his wealth is not off the radar in fact at the moment he needs every penny he can get to keep his own business afloat . Let's face it , every business is suffering at the moment and investors are more interested in the return of capital than the return on capital . Football has always been a casino where investment is more likely lost than gained . Douglas Park has his own business issues and there must come a time when he can no longer afford to fund this basket case of a company at the expense of his own. If the recent issue was just to cover the funding of the shortfall then King's loan of 5m plus interest is still outstanding .
Timtim 8th October 2020 at 12:23
King remains a person of significant control and is cold shouldered by the City which continues to limit their ability to raise funds .
================================
That observation is an interesting one in relation to the recent share issue.
PSCs are normally notified to Companies House when a person exceeds 25% of the share capital in a company and again should they drop below that figure.
Prior to the share issue King (via New Oasis) held 25.58% of the shares in RIFC. He also had an interest in Laird which was intimated as providing a funding facility.
If New Oasis was not involved in any way in the recent share issue, then it's holding would be diluted to 22.01%, thus King would no longer be a PSC. The absence of such a notification could suggest that New Oasis has maintained a shareholding in excess of 25%. However, it could equally be explained just by a delay in submitting the form.
Had all the shares gone to New Oasis, then they would hold 35.96% of RIFC, thus prompting another general share offer, which would fall foul of the Takeover Panel's cold shoulder sanction. That seems an unlikely possibility.
I'd suggest that we all need to be patient and see what unfolds.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC437060/persons-with-significant-control
@EJ
There are 7 people listed as having significant control all of whom (bar King) hold less than 25% , they are though all board members .The only board member who is not PSC is James Blair who is a secretary rather than a Director. Anyway worth keeping an eye on for any notification of change.
( Heavy weather made of the game tonight, but happily the penalty shoot-out ended well)
On the subject of PSCs, I note that Alastair Johnston was clocked as a PSC in 2017,presumably because he had 25% of the shares.
There has not since then been any CH notice of ‘cessation of Alastair Johnston as a PSC’ , as far as I can find.
However, on the wee bit of TRFC Ltd’s website (if one scrolls down far enough to find a reference to RIFC plc!) there is found this ,in the bit relating to the directors of RIFC plc:
“Directors shareholding interests are as follows:
…Alastair Johnston holds 2 499 940 ordinary shares .”
I am no arithmetician and can be quite clumsy using my keyboard calculator, but that number as a percentage of 302 881 982 (total number of shares in issue) seems to be only 0.825384%.
On that basis, how could Johnston be a PSC?
Clearly there ‘musht be some mishtake’!
By Companies House? who only react to what they have been told?
or by Jimmy Don Blair as company secretary for both RIFC plc and TRFC Ltd?
What is Johnston’s shareholding, one wonders?
And why do RIFC plc/TRFC Ltd seem to have such difficulties with the everyday paperwork that other, much more complex , enterprises handle with ease?
Well, given that one is dealing with a plc that claims to be the holding company of a football club that is legally in Liquidation perhaps one ought not to be surprised that their handling of ‘official’ paperwork gives its directors and secretary problems that other holding companies do not encounter!
Yes, that must be it.
It’s an old axiom: the initial falsehood is easy enough, but the consequential chain of falsehoods necessary to sustain that original falsehood pretty soon gets to be difficult to sustain!
Every word of every public statement made has to be carefully guarded, and as little as possible committed to print, and a fire-fighting exercise has to be set up to try to snuff the flames of truth!
Of course such fire-fighting is as ineffective as the fire-fighting of the Blackett and Webb rubber company volunteers in the quite wonderful ‘Singapore Grip’ tv serial!
Truth actually prevails, one way or another, whether this year, next year, or in five, ten, fifteen years or whatever.
In the meantime, those inclined to lie, for commercial, money-making reasons, are rather to be pitied.
https://www.rangers.co.uk/investor-information/3xiJwTahGEhZWGZAUcKMy1
Also from the Evening Times
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18782930.stuart-gibson-makes-5million-investment-rangers-part-8million-ibrox-share-issue/?ref=twtrec
SCOTTISH businessman Stuart Gibson has made a £5million investment in Rangers to become the fourth largest shareholder at Ibrox.
Documents lodged at Companies House earlier this week showed that £8million worth of shares in RIFC plc had been allocated and Gibson is the main money man behind the transaction.
Gibson – who was born in Paisley and now operates in the Far East- previously provided a £1million loan to Rangers and has now stumped up a further £4million in cash to secure an 8.27 per cent stake in the Light Blues during the latest Ibrox share issue.
The property tycoon is the founder of the Redwood Group and is currently the co-CEO of ESR, a leading real estate firm that operates in China, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia and India.
His significant Ibrox investment comes as George Taylor, Douglas Park and George Letham also put more money into their boyhood heroes to further strengthen Rangers’ financial position.
More to follow.
From the above information about the new share issue:
Stuart Gibson 25,000,000 – £5m – (£1m dfe swap)
George Taylor 7,500,000 – £1.5m
Douglas Park 3,500,000 – £700k
George Letham 2,500,000 – £500k
Unspecified others 3,750,000 – £750k
Total – 42,250,000 – £8.45m
We don’t know if the Concert Party members (GL, GT, DP) have done a DFE swap. If so, King may have had his loan(s) repaid in cash as he was limited in his ability to increase his equity stake.
The cash raised from Gibson may be used to repay loans or fill any shortfall in working capital.
Given the continued “closed door” games with no immediate prospect of large numbers of fans in stadiums, it would not surprise me if Celtic also sought to raise cash from a share issue before the end of the year.
Again, forgive my ignorance, but has what he paid for the shares been made public.
Knowing how many shares he bought, directly from the club is one thing. Knowing how much he paid is another.
Homunculus 9th October 2020 at 14:11
Again, forgive my ignorance, but has what he paid for the shares been made public.
Knowing how many shares he bought, directly from the club is one thing. Knowing how much he paid is another.
===================================
The form submitted to Companies House regarding the new share issue states that the price paid was 20p a share.
Thanks for that ej,
I take it they just used the figure which was agreed in the debt for equity swaps.
easyJambo 9th October 2020 at 14:26
"..The form submitted to Companies House regarding the new share issue states that the price paid was 20p a share"
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Ha,ha, eJ: calculating 8.27% of 302881982 (total number of shares) would give Gibson's share holding as 25045339 , and using £5m as the price he paid, I calculate the share price he paid as 19.9614… But I suppose they rounded up?
Gibson must have got a hefty cut of the proceeds of ESR Cayman Ltd's sale of its interest in ESR Australia Logistics Partnership to Empire2.. or some such.
It's a wonder to me what a highly successful businessman thinks he might gain by investing in any football club, let alone a dangerously impoverished one (even before covid-19).
£5M is a helluva price to pay for a vanity kick!
John
..However, on the wee bit of TRFC Ltd’s website (if one scrolls down far enough to find a reference to RIFC plc!) there is found this ,in the bit relating to the directors of RIFC plc:.."
=========%%%=========
Moral of the story being that intrepid investigators should look a little harder before firing off missives of complaint to Companies House.
Bit like the general clamour on here against the MSM for not mounting the latest Blue Prism speculation bus on the recent share issue. As I said, when relevant factual detail becomes public on this matter is when the media might be more likely to cover it, at a time when many issues are competing for space.
I'm no defender of the MSM and there are many, many faults and issues, just not in this particular case. For examples of issues…. what hasn't been covered by the MSM as much as it merits of late is the Julian Assange trial. This touches on many angles that are actually important for our future. Meanwhile the Blue Prism has looked at conspiracies involving Andy Halliday getting too much time in the media and the colour of Rangers socks.
That makes me chuckle because I recall something that made me laugh the other day. It was a Celtic fan (Frank IIRC) on Clyde Superscoreboad having a go at the said Mr.Halliday. Within his discourse on live radio he mentions "the Old Firm" but suddenly remembers that this isn't allowed anymore within the Sevcosis community and attempts to retract
Apart from the humour to it, it also serves paints a realistic picture as to how many actually think when the guard is dropped.
So ,(just to annoy folk !) , I went out to watch the football last night and , as I'd suggested , we were all papped out at halftime in extra time , and then had to rattle home to catch up on BBC highlights . I'm as thick as mince but even I could see that coming .
reasonablechap
I'm reading through your post as slowly as I can and have reached the bit where you claim to know that Celtic asked for, and got , a specific date for the first meeting of the cheeks this season , but with no links to where this information is available . I get the impression that PL is living in your noggin rent free . Obsessed ,preoccupied , bedevilled and tormented ?
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/6141452/rangers-shares-gibson-investment-king-park/
…………..
Who bought the shares? now we know
reasonablechap 9th October 2020 at 15:33
".Moral of the story being that intrepid investigators should look a little harder before firing off missives of complaint to Companies House"
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Perhaps my email to CH was intended to raise a question as to why RIFC plc as the parent company does not have its own website?
Given that there appears to be a requirement on plcs to have certain basic finance data maintained on a website (so that investors/potential investors can easily find up to the minute information) one would have thought that the Board of the holding company would have ensured that they complied with that requirement by having their own website, instead of piggy-backing on the webpages of their subsidiary!
I mean, who would think of looking for info about 'RIFC plc' on the website of 'The Rangers Football Club Ltd'?
I might just be checking that the Regulatory authorities are happy that the RIFC plc Board are not at the madam.
Paddy @ 18.01
Re RC
This guy has already been 'sussed out' by quite a few on here.
The Lawell Syndrome (obsession, paranoia etc) is a strain of the argumentative personality disorder he clearly suffers from.
I no longer comment on the content of his contributions – ever since he 'called me out' on being party to twisting the truth – apparently I targeted him re his bitter, delusional views on asterisk SPFL title for 2019/20.
Watch out Paddy, Stevie BC et al (and especially the man currently 'in the spotlight', JC ) as you , variously, have had the audacity to challenge him vigorously. You may become the latest manifestations of his condition.
On the other hand – Pedro could do with a break!
He gies me a laff and serves as an antidote to covid restrictions!.
And for the sake of completeness, I have just had a reply from the BBC Complaints Team to my recent letter expressing dissatisfaction with the reply to my first letter.
The gist of it :
" .. We appreciate that you feel strongly about this matter and are sorry to learn that you were not satisfied with our earlier response.
We raised your further concerns with the senior management who have nothing to add to the response you've already received……
…if however you are still dissatisfied you can contact the BBC's Executive Complaints Unit (ECU) The ECU is stage 2 of the BBC's complaints process.
If you wish to contact the ECU please write to it directly within 20 working days of receiving this reply. Please explain to it why you believe there may have been a potential breach of standards or other significant issue for it to investigate. You can write to……"
With a nod to bect67's post of 20.39 above, heaven forfend that I should be like an 'RC', but that letter is like a red rag to a really mad bull!
I look forward to composing a courteous, calmly reasoned but very brief letter to the ECU.
bect67 9th October 2020 at 20:39
'..a strain of the argumentative personality disorder he clearly suffers from.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
If I can come back to your post, bect67, I would say that probably none of us would wish harm upon or want to add to the difficulties of anyone who may not be wholly in charge of himself by reason of clinical disorder!
But, of course, 'RC' is wholly in charge of himself, and is not some poor disordered person suffering as a human being in the mental anguish and pain of an 'obsession'
I may be wrong of course, but your man ( in the various blog personalities he has adopted) is in as difficult a situation in 2020 as he has been at any time since 2012, trying to defend an indefensible position!
He has learned to try sweet words and a touch of humour and a 'recognition' that the SMSM is not entirely to be trusted , but the mask slips from time to time!
Who's the PR guy at Ibrox now?
I'll do him/her the honour of saying that he/she is Star War years better than 'Jabba'! ( who, we must fondly remember, one time told the truth about the consequences of Liquidation!)
But being better at being dishonourable is no great recommendation.
Re comments about what constitutes the “pro game” in Scotland
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/scottish-fa-statement-on-new-government-guidelines/
Please note, Scottish Government have advised of an exemption for professional sport. This covers teams who take part in the following competitions – Scottish Professional Football League, Highland League, Lowland League, SWF PL 1 & 2, West of Scotland Leagues, East of Scotland Leagues, South of Scotland League, North Caledonian League and SJFA Leagues. These competitions can continue in line with relevant guidance and protocols. This exemption also covers Scotland National Team fixtures at Men’s A, SWNT and Under-21 level.
That’s a very broad interpretation. And only the top league is obligated to test.
in other news Scottish Rugby have announced that the club season is pushed back to at least January 2021. Clubs in the 5 health board areas have been rolled back to non contact training
dom16 10th October 2020 at 08:16
That’s a very broad interpretation. And only the top league is obligated to test.
==============================
It is a pragmatic interpretation as almost all the clubs in those leagues pay their players and no doubt have their earnings taxed. Some “part time” players in the EOSFL (e.g. Linlithgow) and WOSFL (e.g. Auchinleck) will earn as much as their equivalents in the lower reaches of the SPFL. They shouldn’t be treated any differently. As far as I’m aware the Covid virus does not recognise what league you are playing in, just as it doesn’t just come out after 10pm to infect late night drinkers.
Incidentally, the new WOSFL (ex West Juniors) polled all its members over the last week about a start date for the league and also offered the option of clubs sitting out the season.
The results of the vote were announced this morning with a vote of 36-31 in favour of starting the leagues in 2 weeks time. However, 14 of those clubs indicated their preference to sit out the season. If all 14 do indeed go into abeyance for the season, then I can see some of those clubs folding all together.
It’s pleasing to note that the LL, EOSFL and SOSFL all start their league this weekend without fans. It is encouraging that some clubs are actually live streaming their games, some for free (as a pilot) and some charging a small fee.
John Clark 9th October 2020 at 18:46
Perhaps my email to CH was intended to raise a question as to why RIFC plc as the parent company does not have its own website?
Given that there appears to be a requirement on plcs to have certain basic finance data maintained on a website (so that investors/potential investors can easily find up to the minute information) one would have thought that the Board of the holding company would have ensured that they complied with that requirement by having their own website, instead of piggy-backing on the webpages of their subsidiary!
I mean, who would think of looking for info about 'RIFC plc' on the website of 'The Rangers Football Club Ltd'?
I might just be checking that the Regulatory authorities are happy that the RIFC plc Board are not at the madam.
===========%%%============
Perhaps it was, but reading the posts you have made on this would suggest it wasn't. For maximum traffic/visibility, the investor information is provided on the web, exactly where I would expect it to be.
Sometimes it's better to put the shovel to one side. Even say thank-you for the link I provided
I could go into the detail but it's boring and will only repeat a similar line as before. Please let us all know the reply you get from the "Regulatory authorities".
—-
Whilst I'm on, regards our friend Peter.
I'm surprised that so many are so dismissive of me repeatedly drawing attention as to his role and either what he has been doing or what it reasonably looks like he has been doing.
He is the most influential and powerful political operator in the Scottish game, has been in post for 17 years at what is now the establishment club and has cultivated many friends at the top of the governing bodies. Not to mention, UEFA.
If there was ever any doubt, then this year has shown that self-interest is central to Scottish football. Peter is probably the best paid individual at a Scottish club (non football staff) and Celtic certainly turnover a great del more than any other club up here, ie. he operates very much in order to preserve/improve this. In other words, a useful way of keeping track of his activities is to attempt following the money.
Peter's activities or non-activities are mostly very much within the stated purview of this website. Had he worn brown brogues, there would generally be a very different attitude to posts covering Peter.
Not forgeting the irony of his part in kicking Res.12 into touch.
—–
Finally, this idea that I might be the new "PR guy at Ibrox",…thank's for making me laugh!
Could certainly do with the salary, so if one day I apply, I'll be looking to you for a reference.
easyJambo 10th October 2020 at 12:27
It is a pragmatic interpretation as almost all the clubs in those leagues pay their players and no doubt have their earnings taxed. Some “part time” players in the EOSFL (e.g. Linlithgow) and WOSFL (e.g. Auchinleck) will earn as much as their equivalents in the lower reaches of the SPFL. They shouldn’t be treated any differently. As far as I’m aware the Covid virus does not recognise what league you are playing in, just as it doesn’t just come out after 10pm to infect late night drinkers.
Incidentally, the new WOSFL (ex West Juniors) polled all its members over the last week about a start date for the league and also offered the option of clubs sitting out the season.
The results of the vote were announced this morning with a vote of 36-31 in favour of starting the leagues in 2 weeks time. However, 14 of those clubs indicated their preference to sit out the season. If all 14 do indeed go into abeyance for the season, then I can see some of those clubs folding all together.
It’s pleasing to note that the LL, EOSFL and SOSFL all start their league this weekend without fans. It is encouraging that some clubs are actually live streaming their games, some for free (as a pilot) and some charging a small fee.
=========%%%===========
Best of luck to them all ! Although most of those at the top end of the Scottish game will be playing politics / lobbying in the old self-interested dog eat dog style.
The way things are going, I can't see anything but eventual, relative carnage and a probable restructuring to leagues at all levels.
paddy malarkey 10th October 2020 at 14:30
====================================
The problem Rangers and it's supporters always had was the desperate need to beat Celtic. I can only assume that comes from the collective supremacist attitude. I think that relates to life in general for some of them and not just their football club. Perhaps that is being uncharitable.
That need ultimately and probably inevitably led to the club defrauding tax, both income tax and VAT if memory serves and the rest as they say is history. They allowed their own club to self destruct, all the while looking outwards towards their "enemies"
A bit more self examination from the support, and the businessmen currently operating the new club may have stopped all of that happening.
Deflection towards Peter Lawwell, doing his job, is really just more of the same. Perhaps they should seriously look at what is currently happening with the club they now support. I recently read a discussion on what they were going to do with this latest "cash injection" and could do little more than shake my head.
They continue to be a loss making business, have been so since their inception and can't even point to having won a major trophy to justify it. However if you proclaim "no surrender" and "we are the people" then everything is ok.
I don't know why there is so much reference to Lawwell.
He's been Celtic CEO for 17 years – so he must be doing something right, and by now he knows exactly who's who and what's what across the Scottish game. He seems to manage the Celtic business in a quiet,professional manner: he is a boring accountant after all!
For really interesting characters to analyse and critique, we should be looking elsewhere.
I do miss discussing [Sir] Minty Murray: arguably the biggest, crooked chancer the Scottish game has ever seen. Not content with ripping off Rangers FC, it's obedient supporters, HBOS, HMRC, taxpayers, and readers of the SMSM output…
this Del Boy has managed to hold onto his 'K' and is still -shamelessly – operating in Edinburgh. He should be in jail: like father like son.
And then we have Smiler King!
Much more interesting than Lawwell, and a person who even surpassed Murray in the 'dodgy stakes'. King didn't get his gong, [Sir King would sound pretty good!], but 'for services to business' King earned something much rarer from the City and the establishment: a Cold Shoulder.
And King also surpassed Murray by 'almost going to jail' for his 42 criminal convictions in South Africa for tax dodging: but he paid a financial punishment instead.
Lawwell is really quite tame and uninteresting in comparison.
Instead, we should really have more chat on the real characters of the Scottish game, past and [still] present.
reasonablechap 10th October 2020 at 13:04
Peter's activities or non-activities are mostly very much within the stated purview of this website. Had he worn brown brogues, there would generally be a very different attitude to posts covering Peter.
How is Peter getting on with the awarding of penalties? Perhaps we might see some numbers on days since a team was last awarded two penalties in a game in Scotland? Or last time a team was awarded four penalties in game across the globe?
reasonablechap 10th October 2020 at 13:04
He is the most influential and powerful political operator in the Scottish game, has been in post for 17 years at what is now the establishment club and has cultivated many friends at the top of the governing bodies. Not to mention, UEFA.
If there was ever any doubt, then this year has shown that self-interest is central to Scottish football. Peter is probably the best paid individual at a Scottish club
……………….
After working 17 years at the biggest club in scotland, if he is not the best paid individual at a scottish club, he should be asking for a pay rise. I’m not his biggest fan but i don’t see anything wrong with that
StevieBC 10th October 2020 at 18:51
Lawwell is really quite tame and uninteresting in comparison.
……………
You never hear of him jetting in or juggling inbetween court cases or handing out cups of tea or a christmas message, bet jim whyte can’t wait for PL to have a hospital appointment and get an interview. Very boring guy is PL, Should get a makeover and get jazzed up a bit.
StevieBC 10th October 2020 at 18:51
'..And then we have Smiler King!'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
And there was I, StevieBC, quietly relaxed at my kitchen table, a little refreshment at hand, Mrs C through the wall in the living /tv room [former bedroom of number 2 son ( in terms of dob only!) ], on her regular free phone call to her pal in Glasgow, and you go and mention King!
With nothing much else on the blog since then ( except Cluster One's quite correct observations about PL) I was moved to have another read at the Takeover Panel's statement at
https://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Panel-Statement-2019.16.pdf
The little feeling of righteous indignation/contempt that was re-growing in me as I read , while recalling sitting in Court watching King being questioned, grew again into an inner rage when I reached paragraph
"68. Once proceedings for contempt of court had been commenced, Mr King’s conduct in continuing to resist or delay complying with the interlocutor of the Inner House was a matter for the Court of Session rather than the Panel. In the event, the Court of Session was content to allow the matter to proceed no further upon Mr King’s due performance of the undertakings given by him to the court on 30 November 2018."[my italics]
I was extremely annoyed at what I thought then, and still think, was the Takeover Panel's representatives' readiness not to seek jail for King!
All they wanted was that, in their world of finance, he should play by their rules, and if he eventually did, then bugger any interest in observance of the 'law'!
King is one of the rich, of course, avoiding a prison sentence in South Africa in respect of umpteen separate criminal charges relating to tax offences.
He is also very lucky.
I wager that not many people who so blatantly give two-fingers to a judgment of the Court of Session by failing to comply with a judgment for so long manage to avoid a prison sentence!
I suspect that there may be other Castlemulk lads who were not so lucky in far more trivial matters.
(Lord Bannatyne's judgment is at
"40. The opinion of the Outer House of the Court of Session was issued on 22 December 2017 ordering Mr King to announce a Rule 9 offer in accordance with the Code within 30 days.")
After everything the fans at Ibrox had been through , after witnessing Murray’s moonbeams and tax evading exploits , after Craig Whyte , after Charles Green they went out and begged for Dave King of all people to come back and rescue them from a Board that were 6 months away from living within their means. He promised he had a NOMAD lined up and ready to go as soon as he took control , he lied , he had no such arrangement and went on to remove the company from the scrutiny of the City watchdogs . After almost 4 years under his control he had delivered no trophies and sunk the company deeper and deeper into debt after disastrous spats with Ashley (and others) . His claim that he was a real Rangers* man because last time out he had lost 20m was an ironic truth . He walked away with a cold shoulder from the City but as a legned amongst the support which really says much about the support . He has a tarnished reputation in the UK and Sth Africa and remains the largest shareholder in RIFC. The fact that this inhibits them from progressing seems lost on the fans but the damage he has done has yet to fully come home to roost. The true financial implications from Ashley,Hummel,Elite,Memorial Walls ,Castore and his transfers will dwarf the input from new boy Gibson. The saddest part of all this is not the gullibility of the support but the silence from the authorities who were happy to allow a glib and shameless liar with a criminal record for tax evasion and who was complicit by his involvement on the board of the soon to be liquidated company and incorporated club* that once inhabited Ibrox stadium. I know who is to blame when you fool me once and twice but thrice?
Timtim 10th October 2020 at 23:15
'..The saddest part of all this is not the gullibility of the support but the silence from the authorities .'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
And not merely the silence, Timtim, but the complicity in allowing a football club that they themselves had newly admitted in 2012 into Scottish professional football, to claim to be, and market themselves as, a club that is 140 years old, to pretend to potential investors that it was a 'business' worth buying into!
Honest to God, as a simple man in the street, I ask what the hell was actually going on?
Marketing a new football club created in 2012 as being the most successful club in world football over 140 years?
Who and what was profiting from such a ridiculous lie?
It is so absolutely absurd as to defy all sense of reality and truth.
And the SMSM refused ( apart from day one of the news of Liquidation!) and continue to refuse to face that reality.
What can we make of our football 'authorities' or the SMSM or the now defunct BBC Trust other than that they are enemies of simple truth and, possibly(I say no more) indirect sharers in a financial fraud?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/oct/11/what-exeter-really-think-of-saracens-they-won-those-titles-by-cheating
………………..
No one ever says sorry for cheating anymore
Cluster One 11th October 2020 at 09:50
"..No one ever says sorry for cheating anymore"
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"Saracens should have their titles taken away. Their names should be taken off the Premiership trophy for the seasons they won it while being in breach of the cap.”
And they broke only the the rules governing their sport!
RFC of 1872 , quite possibly with the collusion of our sporting authorities, broke both Football governance rules and the tax laws of the land!
That's the damnable thing: we can't even get an independent investigation into the Res 12 matter or into the careless work of the SFA in failing to question the financial returns submitted by arch-cheat SDM!
John Clark 10th October 2020 at 23:09
I was extremely annoyed at what I thought then, and still think, was the Takeover Panel’s representatives’ readiness not to seek jail for King!
……………
That clicked the old memory banks;-)
……………
Mike Ashley almost or tried to get king put in jail for opening his mouth about an agreement that was not to be made public.
Fast forward a couple of years and this year we had Stewart Robertson of the ibrox clubs breaches of confidentiality by publishing commercially sensitive information.
The SPFL board stated at the time. It is not appropriate in advance of the EGM to comment further but we will return to this IMPORTANT issue in due course.
That was back in May
Mike Ashley would have SR in front of a court by now. Have the SPFL just forgotton about this IMPORTANT issue?
Timtim @ 23.15
I believe that SEVCO are, financially, well and truly trapped by their desperation to stop 10IAR, and are are acting like a gambling addict in frantic pursuit of this (someone will always provide funds to enable the obsession to be played out till 'the well runs dry') .
Although no one really knows how they are 'pockling' the finances, the walls will eventually come tumbling down with the Govan oufit will well and truly 'gubbed'- particularly should they fail to achieve what I sincerely hope will prove to be a 'pipedream'.
Then again – I suppose the face painter, local newsagent, printer etc thought they would eventually get reimbursed.
Thankfully, Big Mike though is a different 'kettle of fish ie.
"See that 8mill – that's mine"!
Cluster One 11th October 2020 at 10:12
"..Mike Ashley almost or tried to get king put in jail for opening his mouth about an agreement that was not to be made public."
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I've had a wee read at the Honourable Mr Justice Smith's judgment (January 2016) in that case (which Ashley's lawyers seem not to have handled too cleverly) As if
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2016/85.html
and had a hearty laugh at this
"50. The reason given for not serving him then was that it was not appropriate given the fact that the meeting was to discuss commercial matters in good faith. Mr King is not only sceptical about that but shows that he believes he was "lured" into coming to the UK for a later meeting with Mr Ashley which he cancelled and then used that to serve him with a committal application (King affidavit paragraph 14). He exhibited an article from the Scottish News which he contends was created as a result of information provided by SDI which reveals "we can also reveal now King was snared in a meticulous operation by Ashley's people after being welcomed to Sports Direct's HQ for what appeared to be peace talks". At the same time the article suggests SDI were arranging for the lawyers to pounce upon Mr King in the hours following his visit to Mr Ashley's office. This involved paying to have teams of Sheriff's Officers across Glasgow waiting for Mr King to return on a train from Chesterfield"
'lured , 'snared' , 'pounced upon' ? Poor wee innocent lamb, what a shame!
John Clark 11th October 2020 at 12:40
I wonder who really provided the information to the Scottish News for the article . Who gains ?
John Clark 11th October 2020 at 12:40
‘lured , ‘snared’ , ‘pounced upon’ ? Poor wee innocent lamb, what a shame!
…………………..
I see none of that with Stewart Robertson.
silence, forgotten, swept under carpet,
"Project Big Picture" has been aired in England, which would have a major impact on the EPL.
Unsurprisingly, the 'big 6' seem like the biggest winners, if approved.
The timing does raise the obvious question: is this blatant opportunism during a pandemic?
Most suspicious though is that those 2 great rival clubs, Liverpool and ManU, have joined forces to launch this major initiative on the English game.
…and of course, these 2 clubs are American owned.
It's not going to end well, (for the game), and so far anyway I've not read the word "franchise" anywhere, i.e. no relegation / promotion from the EPL in future, unless it's for financial reasons.
At least the Scottish game doesn't face this issue.
From WOSFL earlier .
https://wosfl.co.uk/update-11th-october-2020/
I note from Companies House documents that the SFA has taken on a £5m loan from Santander as part of the government's Coronavirus Business Interruption Scheme.
I'm sure it will help pay for their extra Covid testing costs.
paddy malarkey 12th October 2020 at 00:25
From WOSFL earlier .
https://wosfl.co.uk/update-11th-october-2020/
====================================
It’s a reflection of the power struggle between those who wish to delay the start of the season until they can get fans in and those who want to be playing football now. (proposed start date of 24 October)
Among those sitting out the season are WOS Premier League Auchinleck, Pollok, Cumnock, Genafton and Kilbirnie.
The decision for those clubs has to be financial as they will be paying the most in wages.
As a contrast all Lowland League, EOSFL and SOSFL leagues started at the weekend with all clubs participating. A number of clubs are streaming their games as a way of raising money or providing a service to their ST holders who have already paid up.
StevieBC 11th October 2020 at 22:51
You make some good points about the EPL and how the richest clubs want even more wealth and power.
For once I think we need to credit our Scottish football authorities for being ahead of the curve when it comes to football franchising. After all, they created the ‘Rangers’ franchise back in 2012 following the self-inflicted death of Rangers Football Club after a decade and more of industrial-scale cheating.
The current club playing out of Ibrox is allowed to use the trading name ‘Rangers’ for the purposes of financial expediency and, aside from ‘Rangers’ themselves, the single biggest beneficiary of that financial expediency is Celtic. Of course, there are major differences between the EPL’s situation and our own, including the quantum involved and the fact that Scotland only has a duopoly, whereas six to nine top English clubs are seeking to create a closed shop.
Peter Lawwell and the power he wields has been discussed at length on SFM in recent days yet not one person has mentioned that he could, and should, have strangled the ‘same club’ lie at birth.
One humorous remark may well have portrayed Lawwell’s true feelings on the death of Rangers but his and his club’s subsequent actions and inactions prove that ultimately all that matters to Celtic is money. And that’s without even mentioning Celtic’s appalling treatment of Res 12 etc.
Celtic fans will point to the fact that it’s not up to Celtic to do the dirty work for the other clubs, nor put themselves in the firing line for it, but that ignores the patently obvious fact that there have only ever been two voices listened to in probably more than a century of Scottish football, and certainly in the last 35 years – those from Ibrox and Parkhead. Do you seriously think the blazers were going to listen to piddling little Hamilton Accies or St Johnstone? Or how about Raith Rovers?
Scottish football came to a crossroads in 2012. It could branch off in the direction of integrity and eventually recover financially as best it could, possibly even with a new club playing out of Ibrox. It chose instead to head down a route signposted ‘Money Above Everything’. For doing so, the rest of the clubs ought to hang their heads in shame for accepting crumbs off the table along with perpetual insignificance.
As I alluded to previously, even after thirty-five years of nobody except Celtic or Rangers winning our top league title, our blazers saw fit to re-instate that duopoly despite the death of one of its participants.
The EPL may well be heading towards a closed shop, but for once Scotland got there first.
easyJambo 12th October 2020 at 10:04
I note from Companies House documents that the SFA has taken on a £5m loan from Santander as part of the government’s Coronavirus Business Interruption Scheme.
I’m sure it will help pay for their extra Covid testing costs.
…………….
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1315590314183266304/photo/2
easyJambo 12th October 2020 at 10:14
Two of my nephews play for Camelon , and I watched the transmission of their game at Newtongrange on Saturday (they managed to snatch a draw from the jaws of victory !). Very impressed by the definition of the stream , and the cameraperson will get more professional as they go on . I don't know if all wee clubs could afford to finance the technology required , or even if it would be a guaranteed revenue stream , but I'm glad they made the effort .And it was a freebie , which always makes it better .
Paddy
Although we're talking about a different level here, I purchased the Ross County and St Mirren away matches for Celtic, and was similarly impressed (by the quality of coverage and commentary).
£15 a go – I know!
In this 'covid climate', which will be with us for the foreseeable future I think this approach will be adopted more and more (the standard of coverage will, as you say, no doubt improve), as I don't see fans being allowed to return any time soon (all season?).
I realise that my own club CFC are reluctant to embrace the idea (out of loyalty to season book investors?), but I hope they do so.
In other news, as the SMSM 'let's-do-what-we-can -to undermine-10IAR' narrative and rhetoric are ramped up ahead of this Saturday's Celtic v SEVCO 'showdown', we have 'quisling' Kris Commons jump on the bandwagon with his installation as the latter as favourites.
Why this bitter wee man is now so anti- Celtic beats me!
paddy malarkey 12th October 2020 at 13:14
================================
Clubs at all levels need to be looking at streaming options. We know that many clubs looking for financial help have already taken in Season Ticket money. The set up costs for the bigger teams should be offset by the savings in matchday costs for security, cleaning etc.
If they can deliver a decent streaming option then it would be justification for holding onto the bulk of those ST funds, while attracting PPV "walk ups" from both home and away clubs. We know that income for all clubs will be down, but it is not non existent. e.g. Rangers has sold 46,500 STs and taken thousands of "My Gers" subscriptions. Even in the Championship, Hearts has sold 11,500 STs
Once the pandemic is over then there may be scope to keep the streaming service going, thereby attracting new investment.
In the lower leagues I know that Kelty, Berwick Rangers, Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, Civil Service Strollers, Spartans, Musselburgh, Newtongrange and Penicuik have all offered streaming for their games last weekend and this upcoming week. There will be several more beyond my personal awareness.
In many respects the decision for clubs is a simple one. The fans are still out there, but the delivery mechanism has to change, with no, or restricted numbers of, fans allowed in stadiums. Similar changes have occurred in retail with online shopping and with Zoom replacing face to face meetings.
Necessity often drives change. It's at times like this that you see how many football clubs remain stuck in a time warp.
Some interesting comment here on the criminality involved in tax avoidance cases.
Para 8 is an interesting take on a well known tax case.
https://www.taxwatchuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/TaxWatch-GT-Submission_Disguised-Remuneration_20200929.pdf
Bogs Dollox 12th October 2020 at 16:45
Some interesting comment here on the criminality involved in tax avoidance cases.
Para 8 is an interesting take on a well known tax case.
https://www.taxwatchuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/TaxWatch-GT-Submission_Disguised-Remuneration_20200929.pdf
===================================
I don't consider the author's take as being any different from that of RTC and many others who have commented on RFC's responses to HMRC enquiries.
We have also come across the document's author George Turner, several times previously. He wrote for the Tax Justice Network (TJN) and the Offshore Game. His views have been consistent throughout.
Any word of Stevie G's discip hearing ?
easyJambo 12th October 2020 at 17:19
I don't consider the author's take as being any different from that of RTC and many others who have commented on RFC's responses to HMRC enquiries.
We have also come across the document's author George Turner, several times previously. He wrote for the Tax Justice Network (TJN) and the Offshore Game. His views have been consistent throughout.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Indeed but my point was more about others on here also making a submission to the enquiry along the same lines but asking why HMRC did not pursue the fraud allegations.
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/10/12/fantasy-investment-for-sevco-and-a-hard-sell-for-the-klan/
Claims that the 5m share purchase from Mr Gibson was actually a secured loan . Companies House has already shown that shares have been issued so I cannot see how it is a loan with security . This security claim has been made before on King's loan but as yet no details appear at Companies House . They are well practised in the art of deception and skull duggery and playing by the rules isn't always high on their agenda so there is no reason to disbelieve PMacG but until the evidence is shown I'm not ready to accept the word of his contact. Can one buy shares with a guaranteed buyback at a higher price with security to underwrite the purchase ?
easyJambo 12th October 2020 at 15:49
Necessity often drives change. It’s at times like this that you see how many football clubs remain stuck in a time warp.
………………….
Years from now you could be telling the grankids, i remember when you had to buy a season ticket to watch games or watch it on a thing called sky, there was none of this streaming malarky you watch on your headset;-)
Meanwhile , on an island not far away ….
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54507603
paddy malarkey 12th October 2020 at 17:28
Any word of Stevie G’s discip hearing ?
………..
The one he should be up for, for slamming the SPFL for being desperate to end the season or the one about morelos?
Just seen the outcome – not proven .
Timtim 12th October 2020 at 18:11
…… there is no reason to disbelieve PMacG but until the evidence is shown I’m not ready to accept the word of his contact.
============================
I think that you are correct in your observation.
The initial story about Gibson’s investment in the MSM stated that £1m was conversion of a loan (I assume that was a prior loan from him – probably from earlier this year). The other £4m was in the form of cash.
It is reasonable to assume that the parallel investments by Park, Taylor and Letham were also DFE swaps.
As I indicated in my previous posts on the subject, it was probably impossible for King to up his stake, as a result of his cold shoulder status, so he probably had at least part of his lending paid back in cash. PMGB puts that figure as £1.8m. That seems perfectly reasonable in the circumstances.
That would leave £2.2m of free cash to be used for working capital. Again, such a shortfall at this point is not a surprise, with commitments to pay transfer installments, deferred wages, or whatever.
One point where I would disagree with PMGB’s contact is the observation that investors normally expect some sort of a return. Since the Concert Party took control, there have been circa £33m in loans converted to (relatively worthless) shares. That to my mind is investment without anything in return, barring the questionable kudos of owning shares in the holding company of a loss making football club.
Timtim 12th October 2020 at 18:11
"..Can one buy shares with a guaranteed buyback at a higher price with security to underwrite the purchase?'
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I see where your thinking is, Timtim, but only redeemable shares can be bought back by the company.
The shares issued to Gibson et al. are non-redeemable, so, if anyone( God forbid!) were trying to work working a flanker, it probably wouldn't be that particular flanker!
Bogs Dollox 12th October 2020 at 17:32
'……but my point was more about others on here also making a submission to the enquiry along the same lines but asking why HMRC did not pursue the fraud allegations.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
It's almost certain that a letter to HMRC making refence to a particular tax case would get nothing but a civil reply to the effect that HMRC (quite rightly, really)cannot discuss individual cases .
They would even be careful not to use words which might suggest that they ever knew that RFC of 1872 had been investigated!
A better suggestion , perhaps, might be for those of us with an interest in the matter to send a copy of Tax Watch's submission to our own individual MP with a covering note asking him/her to express a view about the failure of HMRC to institute proceedings against those who lied to the First Tier Tax Tribunal to try to avoid the consequences of using the porn-actor/struck-off lawyer's tax 'avoidance' scheme!
Cluster One 12th October 2020 at 18:17
‘..Years from now you could be telling the grankids, i remember when you had to buy a season ticket to watch games or watch it on a thing called sky, ‘
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Shades of the days when one was sent out to the street-urchin vendor of ( (I speak of Glaswegian experience) the “Times!“, “News!“, and “Citize .. eeeen!” at about 6.30./ 7.00 pm to get ‘the paper’, so that one’s faither could read what passed as match reports of games (only up to about half-time!)
No telly, and a very, very limited radio coverage of football ( commentary of about only 40 minutes of the second half of one match, no pundits sharing commentary, no pre-match universal coverage… the reading of the results at 5.00 pm followed by ……. Jimmy Shand and Scottish dance music!
Them were the days.
And ,of course, Peter Thomson, whose shade, I am told, managed the flit across running water from Queen Margaret Drive to Pacific Quay!
easyJambo 12th October 2020 at 15:49
'.Necessity often drives change.'
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Well, eJ, I suppose 'it's adapt or die'!
Will the day come when football grounds will once again be literally just 'grounds', pieces of land big enough to permit the playing of a football match (and changing rooms and media rooms) on which young or youngish men/women play football purely for remote viewers, with no need of stadia of any size to accommodate actual physically present spectators?
I wonder what someone like Barry Hearn sees the future of football as being, now that covid-19 has made clubs aware that they might still make money via tv screening while selling off their stadia, keeping just enough ground for a tidy wee football pitch and necessary offices?
Or is that too fanciful a notion?
easyJambo 12th October 2020 at 19:28
'.One point where I would disagree with PMGB’s contact is the observation that investors normally expect some sort of a return.'
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There may be different kinds of 'return' I suppose, eJ.
For example, the shifting of dirty money internationally by way of investment in legitimate businesses is what money laundering is all about and might provide an acceptable 'return' for anyone involved in such financial shenanigans
Not that for one minute am I saying that investors in RIFC plc are laundresses!
Of course not! That would be a monstrous charge that could not be made without concrete evidence.
Theoretically of course, it may be entirely possible.
And sensible folk , like for example those in football governance ,should sort of maybe be broadly aware that that is so.
test *
Checking if ‘ban’ is still in place.
John Clark 12th October 2020 at 21:55
=====================================
If HMRC had chosen the criminal route they would not have achieved the real end they wanted.
A ruling that disguised remuneration schemes don't work and that tax is due.
From the Supreme Court.
That is more valuable to them, and to the economy, than a couple of people getting 3 or 4 years in an open prison, with an automatic 50% discount and early release.
By the way, a reply from CH to my request for the web-site of RIFC plc popped into my inbox at 13.49 today.
The gist of it is:
"…I am afraid Companies House does not store email or website addresses, telephone or fax numbers for companies or their officers as it is not a requirement of the Companies Act…..'
I think I ought to have asked the FCA instead of CH!
A little bit of further research on my part had found this:
from the Companies Act 2006:
"426B.Section 172(1) statement to be made available on website
(1)This section applies if—
(a)a company is required by section 414CZA to include a section 172(1) statement in its strategic report for a financial year, and
(b)the company is an unquoted company in relation to that financial year.
(2)The company must ensure that the section 172(1) statement—
(a)is made available on a website, and
(b)remains so available until—
(i)the section 172(1) statement for the company’s next financial year is made available in accordance with this section,.."
I think the expectation that 'is made available on a website' would be that the website would be recognisable immediately as being that very company's website, not the website of any subsidiary with a significantly different name and business status!
I may therefore send a wee email to the FCA, this being a quiet day an' all, to tease the matter out for the sake of clarity.
Homunculus 13th October 2020 at 12:48
'..That is more valuable to them, and to the economy, than a couple of people getting 3 or 4 years in an open prison, with an automatic 50% discount and early release.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Yes, I appreciate that getting a ruling for use in many more cases, or to reduce the attempts of other companies run by chaps like SDM to cheat the taxman was very important.
I just wonder why they then simply did not follow through with criminal charges, which might have emphasised that tax cheating is a serious crime [especially as in the Rangers case HMRC did not (as far as I know) get any of the unpaid tax back]
Playing the long game is all well and good: but I'm all for a bit of immediate action now and then!
John Clark 13th October 2020 at 14:28
I just wonder why they then simply did not follow through with criminal charges,
//////////////////
On a light note;-)
Those petitions against HMRC by the ibrox fans and the Bed sheets tied to the gates, or maybe the Dossier Murray said he had on HMRC about the leaks or maybe the SMSM campaign to portray HMRC as the bad ones for rejecting the CVA. After all that they may have thought “Obsessed” these people are and be glad to get rid of.
Often makes me laugh when an ibrox fan puts forward a throw away line from HMRC that football will continue at ibrox or something like that (can’t be bothered to look it up) That this means it’s the same club, and that after their months of going after HMRC with their banners and petitions and dossiers/
Highlander 12th October 2020 at 11:
The EPL may well be heading towards a closed shop, but for once Scotland got there first.
Not looked in here for a few days. Aye a long time before! Agree with all you say. The common denominator though is dosh.
Did my ears deceive me for a second, a minute or two ago, when I thought I heard Liam McLeod say ( in relation to goalscorers tonight ) 'minted with the Murrays'?
Was that a clever play on words, referencing a successful mint sweetie/successful goalscorers?
or grounds for disciplinary action by the BBC as being a veiled reference to the vainglorious (and false)claims of SDM inty, who killed RFC of 1872?
Just a thought, and which may – or may not – have anything to do with Gibson's involvement with RIFC;
Per Companies House, King resigned as Chairman/['Director'] dated 27th March this year: almost 7 months ago.
Since that date, the RIFC Board has included;
Interim Chairman – Douglas Park
Interim Deputy Chairman – John Bennett
The 2019/20 Accounts are expected to be signed off at the end of this month.
The RIFC AGM is expected at the end of November.
You would expect these Interim roles to be replaced with permanent roles by the AGM, at least, (i.e. 8 months after King's resignation date)?
JC @22.18
Panic not John they were talking about the two goal scorers for Dunfermline who won against Kilmarnock. Not sure if they are brothers, I was only half listening! But I didn’t get the impression they were talking about ‘you know who’.
(You are quite rightly always on your guard)
Although I do seem to remember something about a very friendly relationship of David Murray with the Owner? CEO? of Dunfermline who was also a high heid yin with one of the Scottish banks at the time Murray was getting huge loans on demand.
Rumours of a certain match fixing abounded at the time but I couldn’t possibly comment on that!
jimbo 13th October 2020 at 23:16
'.Panic not John they were talking about the two goal scorers for Dunfermline'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Yes, jimbo.
But the BBC is supersensitive (as is any liar when challenged with their lying) to any remark or observation by anyone on its airwaves that might remind folk of Sir Minty's murder of RFC of 1872 by his tax cheating and sports cheating!
Because that will remind folk that SDM's RFC is in liquidation, and that they (BBC Scotland) support and propagate the untruth that TRFC is RFC of 1872.
And anent my post at 23.59, the famous words 'eppure si muove' ( 'aye, say what you like, it still moves!') supposedly muttered sotto voce by Galileo Galilei (when outwardly accepting the view that the earth does not move around the sun )sprang again into my mind.
Let the SFA, the SPFL, the SMSM, or those in the legal profession who[ perhaps like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle]chuntered on about the ectoplasm , the essence ,of the deceased RFC of 1872 being alive and working in the essence of the new body that Charles Green had newly created] carry on asserting a falsehood.
We can shrug our shoulders and say 'e comunque morto' It's still dead no matter how many folk claim it to be alive!
For avoidance of doubt – and unnecessary decline in to martyrdom and victim hood. No poster has been banned on the forum. I know this may disappoint some who would choose to die on a hill the proportions of a sultana under an Axminster, but everyone is good – though some are naturally gooder than others??
Big Pink 14th October 2020 at 00:53
'.No poster has been banned on the forum.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
And of course that categorical denial immediately raises questions about any poster who asserts that he/she has been banned!
The onus is on him/her to post now the post(s) that he/she asserts were 'banned'
If they are posted, he/she is shown to be a useless dishonest waste of time and space, and just a bloody nuisance!
In my opinion.
RC
If you are worried about being banned, just contact Punctilious Peter, who will sort it out forthwith!
jimbo 13th October 2020 at 23:31
Gavin Masterton.
Whatever happened to him, oh that's right he borrowed money, bought into a football club and was subsequently declared bankrupt.
John Clark; and anent my post etc…
You Sir are on fire just now Bravo.
Reminder to self never get on the wrong side of JC.
FOR what it is worth (i know ) Please keep doing
what you do. I enjoy reading your comments immensely.
“RANGERS INTERNATIONAL FOOTBALL CLUB PLC SC437060 Created: 14 October 2020 20:24:02
Companies House does not verify the accuracy of the information filed Overview Registered office address:
Ibrox Stadium, 150 Edmiston Drive, Glasgow, G51 2XD Company type: Public limited company Incorporated on: 16 November 2012
Status: Active
Key filing dates
Accounting reference date: 30 June
Last accounts made up to: 30 June 2019
Next accounts due: 31 March 2021 …”
===================================
Delayed RIFC Accounts.
Above is an extract from Companies House website, and its ‘Company Snapshot’ function.
On the face of it, it seems that RIFC has applied for the available 3 months filing extension, due to Covid?
[“Next accounts” – for a plc – would normally be due 6 months after year end, so for RIFC by 31/12/20].
Ergo, no RIFC accounts publicised this month – and that battered, old can has been kicked down the road until December.
Easyjambo, I believe you get alerts from CH: would you know if this timing is indeed correct?
I can’t find anything to confirm an RIFC request for a filing extension – but again, there may be CH information gaps due to volume / Covid impact?
StevieBC 14th October 2020 at 20:55
"..I can’t find anything to confirm an RIFC request for a filing extension – but again, there may be CH information gaps due to volume / Covid impact?"
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Regulations were passed, StevieBC, under which CH are allowed to apply (without the need of application) automatic extensions in various sets of circumstances and under prescribed conditions. It looks as though CH just does it on the companies' CH page without the particular companies having to ask for extension or provide further info. (Not that CH actually checks what any lying board might tell them)
key in
Temporary Changes to Companies House filing
and open the link and you'll get all the bumph
Thanks for that JC.
Personally, I think the extension granted to companies to file their accounts is a bit of overkill. I can understand it for companies that have not been allowed to come out of lockdown as yet, but for football clubs, most have their year ends at the end of June, with a few at the end of May.
I can't believe that any club will not have confirmed their year end financial position before now. I do get the current uncertainty around their "going concern" status, but that is unlikely to change much in the short term. There will be warnings in the accounts of every club.
Listed companies may be subject to different rules about publishing their trading positions (not the full annual report with notes to the accounts). Celtic would be the only club in that category. They published their annual trading results on 27 September last year. The full report was published on 25 October.
RIFC published their accounts on 1 November, Hearts on 15 November, and Aberdeen on 24 November.
Some of us believe that BBC Radio Scotland imposed a ban on their football commentators and pundits prohibiting them from introducing ,or allowing others to introduce, the topic of the disgraceful Big Lie lie that disfigures Scottish Football, and that they do not shrink from punishing anyone who attempts to defy the ban.
At about 9.45 this morning, I heard something which made me think that perhaps this desire to muzzle discussion might extend to muzzling criticism of BBC Radio Scotland in the matter of phone-ins about Covid-19.
The saccharin-sweet Stephen Jardine's mask slipped a little as he gave very short-shrift to a lady caller, beautifully articulate, who voiced the opinion that the BBC goes out of its way to undermine the attempts of Government to control the virus by refusing to back the and encourage the government measures.
The caller said that instead of actively encouraging people to support the advice and instructions of the medical experts and government, BBC radio Scotland went about asking folk in the street ,or on phone-ins, whether they think this or that measure is 'fair'. She put on a wee whiny wheedle-y tone of voice ( a bit like the saccarin-sweet tone that Jardine uses ) when she said 'is it fair', making the point that the general run of folk, just like her herself, have no personal expert knowledge ,and that it wasn't a matter of childish views of 'fairness' when it comes to lives, but a matter of the broadcasting authority's duty to support the health measures deemed necessary by the Government and health experts rather than encourage the airing of uninformed opinions.
And Jardine had no time for her . No way.
He rapped out in less than honeyed tones some response about 'balance' of 'opinions', and ended the call.
Even Mrs C, busy with her word-puzzle and listening with half an ear, looked up at me in surprise at the change in tone, and said something about Jardine having a hissy-fit.
Much in the way of his football journalist colleagues, he rapped out some rubbish about balance and democracy ….and promptly ended the call with no right of reply.
It sounded to me that he was following an editorial line as well as taking the huff at what he thought might have been implied by the use of the wee whiny tone.
I have just recorded my take on that little episode. I pass no comment on the Government's measures against the spread of the virus.
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1316697040735395840/photo/1
…………..
Found something we spoke about the other day.
HMRC IS READY TO INVESTIGATE INDIVIDUALS JUNE 13, 2012
I know he is a dour as a wet day on the Ayrshire coast but that has been a decent string of results from Steve Clarke and achieved with a decent number of players who are or were recently plying their trade in the SPFL and also not just those playing for Celtic.
Of course you want Robertson and the likes to be involved but glad to see domestic players getting involved in the squad as opposed to, what I always thought was sometimes, the over reliance on those who came from the lower English divisions.
Wottpi @ 16.41
It might not be super sexy football at times but I agree it's good to see Scotland getting a decent string of results.
I see that Doncaster has made public comments about the possibility of Scottish footy fans travelling to Blackpool or other northern England cities to watch the CFC v. TRFC game in pubs.
Who the @#%$ does he think he is?!
The SPFL CEO who simply blanked supporters of SPL teams in 2012, and has generally treated fans with contempt since.
Supporters' feedback is neither sought nor wanted by Doncaster.
He should have kept his opinions to himself, IMO.
I’ve been watching the demise of Macclesfield Town FC and its resurrection as Macclesfield FC, with a modicum of interest, given the similarity of events to RFC in 2012.
The previous owner wasn’t able to find a buyer when the club hit financial problems, so the oldco was wound up on the order of a judge, about a month ago, because it was unable to pay its debts to HMRC and others.
The Receiver has since sold the business and assets of the oldco to a third party, Robert Smethurst, who is seeking to resume football in the town. Robbie Savage has already been appointed to the Board as Head of Football Operations.
The interesting part for me is the difference in the language used by different parties to describe the purchase and the new set up.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/macclesfield-town-fc-official-receivers-update
The above statement has echoes of what Duff and Phelps claimed to have sold as a “Going Concern” (after the CVA failed!) and what an HMRC official said about the continuation of football at Ibrox.
Now contrast that with what was stated by the buyer in a press statement put out on his behalf. (full document tweeted by Robbie Savage)
https://twitter.com/RobbieSavage8/status/1315990615876931584
Some extracts
New club? Old club?
It seems that football people quickly attach themselves to the continuity of a club of the same or similar name, while businessmen like Smethurst and Green know precisely what they have bought.
easyJambo 15th October 2020 at 22:15
I’ve been watching the demise of Macclesfield Town FC and its resurrection as Macclesfield FC, with a modicum of interest, given the similarity of events to RFC in 2012.
……………….
Also watching with interest
There are a few people on here who like their poetry
and literature'
So let me share this with you. (and everyone else)
Apologies if this is a "well kent" poem. I had never heard of the poem nor the poet.
Heard Sir Larry recite it on World at War and had to look it up. One of the saddest and most beautiful things I have ever read.
By the Russian Jewish poet Pavel Antokolsky, a year after the death of his 18 year old son Lieutenant Vladimir Antokolovsky, killed in action on June 6th,1942…
"Son"
Do not call me, father, do not seek me,
Do not call me, do not wish me back.
We’re on a route uncharted, fire and blood erase our tracks.
On we fly, on wings of thunder, never more to sheath our swords.
All of us in battle fallen, not to be brought back by words.
Will there be a rendezvous? I know not.
I only know we still must fight.
We are sand grains in infinity, never to meet, never more see light.
Farewell then my son. Farewell then my conscience.
My youth and my solace my one and my only.
And let this farewell be the end of a story,
Of solitude vast and which none is more lonely.
In which you remain, barred forever and ever,
From light and from air, with your death pangs untold.
Untold and unsoothed, not to be resurrected.
Forever and ever, an 18 year old.
Farewell then, no trains ever come from those regions
Unscheduled or scheduled, no aeroplanes fly there.
Farewell then my son, for no miracles happen,
As in this world dreams do not come true.
Farewell…
I will dream of you still as a baby,
Treading the earth with little strong toes,
The earth where already so many lie buried.
This song to my son, is come to its close.
HS
StevieBC 15th October 2020 at 21:56
I see that Doncaster has made public comments about the possibility of Scottish footy fans travelling to Blackpool or other northern England cities to watch the CFC v. TRFC game in pubs.
———————————————————————————————-
And anent the suggestion that the Celtic v Rangers* game be free to view he says "SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster said it would be "unreasonable" for the broadcaster to "give up Scottish football's "crown jewels"".
Says it all really!! Just let them play each other 38 times a season then Neil?
bordersdon 16th October 2020 at 11:51
“SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster said it would be “unreasonable” for the broadcaster to “give up Scottish football’s “crown jewels””.
……………..
And some ibrox fans would have you try and believe that he never did all he could have to try and shoehorn an ibrox club into the top flight back in 2012.
In 2012 he tried to boot scottish football fans in the crown jewels.
One of the benefits I have received from the posts and observations of contributors much more savvy than I is the acquisition of the beginnings of some interest in trying to learn something about the workings of that hazy, ill-regulated world of finance in which all kinds of dishonest chancers try to find ways to rip us off.
I still yield to no one in the depth of my ignorance of 'money' matters.
However, I've begun to learn (and just partially understand )some of the stuff that Companies House relates to: the setting up of companies, Articles of Association, directors' duties. shareholders' rights, difference between PLCs and Limited Companies, Community Interest Companies, Registered Charities, LLPs, different kinds of shares, 'holding companies', 'subsidiaries', and so on.
Yesterday, I discovered that there is such a thing as a PCC. I had not come across that acronym. It stands for Protected Cell Company , and 'A protected cell company (PCC) can be thought of as being a standard limited company that has been separated into legally distinct portions i.e. cells. The income, assets and liabilities of each cell are kept separate from all other cells."
How did I come across it?
Well, I was intrigued by the sale recently by the National Trust of Scotland of the isle named 'Insh', which had been left to the NTS in the will of its last owner (for the benefit of the people of Scotland as represented by the NTS)
It was reported that the island was sold to West Coast Heritage Limited.
According CH, this is a one-man company incorporated on 13 December 2019, company number SC 49594.Share capital £1.00, one shareholder-David Stuart Mackman, with its registered office in Gorebridge.
Having recently been interested in the money borrowing practices of certain companies of interest to this blog, where (in the equivalent of my da's 'good suit' at the pawn shop) assets such as, say, football grounds are pawned for a few bob until redeemed by clearance of the debt, I looked to see whether West Coast Heritage Ltd had borrowed money and, if so, what they had 'pledged'.
There are 9 outstanding 'charges'.
All of these are in favour of '
Soho Wealth PCC LIMITED/Cell C
Who they, I wonder?
So I key in the name as given- Soho Wealth PCC Ltd /Cell C
I do not find that name on the CH pages.
The nearest I find is
SOHO WEALTH LIMITED
So I look that up.
I find that it was incorporated on 24 June 2016, registered address in Perth (Scotland)with company number
SC538776 -and Dissolved on 2 October 2018 after Voluntary strike-off.
It was a one-shareholder company, the sole shareholder being Steven McColl.
Fair enough.
I then looked up what appears to be the current website of Soho Wealth
https://www.sohowealth.co.uk/
There's a picture of a Steven McColl.
Down at the very bottom in the very small print are the words ".Soho Wealth is not regulated by The Financial Services Authority.'
I assume that it is not the dissolved company (dissolved before the 'charges' were created) that made the loans to West Coast Heritage.
How can I find out who did? In the ordinary way of things I thought that info would be available.
I'm sure there is a perfectly straightforward explanation to do with the nature of PCCs and their subunits/cells or whatever.
Can anyone fill me in, please?
Higgy’s Shoes @ 23.24
I am one of the ‘Terracing Tams’ who laments the passing of the days when football and Saturdays were synonymous so, in keeping with your point about poetry, I came across this from Glasgow poet Tom Leonard:-
“hey jimmy
lookslik wirgonny miss the gemme
gonny miss the GEMM jimmy
nearly three a cloke the noo”
Ah – the days of wine and roses!
Higgy's Shoes 15th October 2020 at 23:24
"There are a few people on here who like their poetry
and literature'"
A moving piece, for any one of us, fathers or mothers, which reminds us that football comes a poor second to a whole lot of other more important things!
"""""""""
bect67 16th October 2020 at 18:39
"Ah – the days of wine and roses!"
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Jack Lemmon and Lee Remick in 'Days of Wine and Roses' : a wonderfully acted film, if a bit depressing.
It also had Jack Klugman who later partnered Lennon in 'The TV series of 'The Odd Couple'.
Is the BBC paying for the use of the theme music for that show on 'Off the Ball', and if so, how much?
easyJambo 15th October 2020 at 22:15'
'..I’ve been watching the demise of Macclesfield Town FC and its resurrection as Macclesfield FC, with a modicum of interest, given the similarity of events to RFC in 2012.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""
[I've only just seen and read that interesting post, eJ (and, btw, I wish you joy of the result tonight, no harm to Dundee. I think I understood for the first time the whole idea of a goalkeeper as an actual football player- the aimless kickouts by Dundee's goalie almost always led to a Hearts forward attack because they won possession. Mrs C will testify as to how many times I yelled ( as an objective, unemotionally involved spectator) 'don't simply kick the ball out, pass the feckin thing so that something might be built up'.)]
On the Macclesfield business, I smiled when I saw the pitifully small levels of debt involved, that, small as they were, resulted in 'dissolution' on 16 September and an end to 146 years of football history, and read the linguistic scramblings by various people to try to pretend that the new club [ and, of course, on incorporation as a company in 1929 , the directors all swore that they consented to be directors not of a 'company' called Macclesfield Town Football Club, but of a FOOTBALL club !]
For a 'vox populi' of fans see this link ( echoes of Jabbas headlines!)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/54214101
(will anyone at BBC North West be disciplined for that?)
As has often been said, football fans are free to believe what they like, to transfer their affections to a new club which claims to be representative of , reminders of, the football club of their childhood and family memories and affections and immediate social culture.
My sole difficulty arises when a Sport's governance body spits in the face of sporting truth and 'officially' caters to untruthful sporting claims .
Everyone in Macclesfield may very well support the new 'Macclesfield FC' with all their hearts and fervour as if they were supporting the quite different football club that had been the now sadly dead Macclesfield Town.
But if the FA's record books do not show that the club that was Macclesfield Town FC ceased to exist, and that Macclesfield FC is a newly created football club in the world of English professional football, then that FA will be defying truth, and lying, just as our SFA did and is doing.
(And, actually, I don't know yet whether the new Macclesfield FC has actually applied for and been admitted to the FA ,in some kind of equivalent to the 5-Way Agreement that would allow it to claim that its date of foundation was 1874 ,or whatever!)
But I've seen the same journalistic 'linguistic' contortions' trying avoid the point: evidence, perhaps, that the EMSM are just as frightened (though for other reasons, perhaps) as the SMSM is in the matter of reporting truth about the actual death of football clubs.
“It also had Jack Klugman who later partnered Lennon in ‘The TV series of ‘The Odd Couple’.”
An exceedingly odd couple…
Would that be John or Neil, JC?
The perils of appealing !
In my inbox today
"Lausanne, 16 October 2020 –
The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) hearing in the appeal arbitration procedures filed by the Italian MotoGP rider Andrea Iannone and the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) took place on 15 October 2020.
The panel of arbitrators will now deliberate and finalise the Arbitral Award containing their decision.
It is expected to be notified by mid-November 2020.
The final award will be announced on the CAS website.
The proceedings concern the decision taken by the Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme (FIM) International Disciplinary Court decision dated 31 March 2020 (the Challenged Decision) in which Andrea Iannone was found to have committed an anti-doping rule violation and an 18-month period of ineligibility was imposed on him.
Andrea Iannone seeks to have the Challenged Decision annulled, whereas WADA requests that the Challenged Decision be replaced by a new decision imposing a four-year period of ineligibility on the rider."
If you were Andrea Iannone's honest Counsel would you advise him to
withdraw his appeal and accept the 18-month 'ineligibility'
or tell him he has a good chance of winning?
"
fishnish 16th October 2020 at 23:49
'..Would that be John or Neil, JC?'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Sadly, I'm old enough not quite to have really got into Beatlemania: I was no longer a teenager at the critical time!
And poor John Lennon, God rest him.
No, Jack Lemmon.
Superb actor: watch if you can the film " The Apartment"
Big Pink 14th October 2020 at 00:53
For avoidance of doubt – and unnecessary decline in to martyrdom and victim hood. No poster has been banned on the forum. I know this may disappoint some who would choose to die on a hill the proportions of a sultana under an Axminster, but everyone is good – though some are naturally gooder than others
========%%%=========
Briefly and to further clarify – a post of mine was uploaded one minute and gone the next. I used inverted commas with the word ´ban` in my Test post because I simply couldn't be sure of what had happened with the post that went missing. No wish for martyrdom or victimhood.
Talking about clarification, Neil Lennon has been very publicly looking for it of late concerning the availability of Ryan Christie for a football match.
“We want answers to some questions and I am sure our supporters will be the same. We have had no clarification. If anything, we have just been met with complete resistance."
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ryan-christie-out-rangers-clash-22859282
Is the Parkhead bubble so effective that he has forgotton about the seriousness of the pandemic ?
Perhaps someone can refer Neil to what the PLC were saying in their statement after the Bolingoli incident.
"We have led the way in working with the football authorities and Scottish Government to establish the most rigorous, effective protocols and working practices, which ultimately led to the resumption of football. We could have done no more in this area."
http://www.celticfc.net/news/18417
Looking to selectively self insolate from the protocols is surely a step too far, even for Peter
bordersdon 16th October 2020 at 11:51
======================================
Which part do you disagree with, do you not think it is the most watched game in Scottish domestic football, of most interest to people outside of Scotland and therefore the biggest draw for a televised match.
I have no problem in slating the man, but I don't see what is wrong with that comment.
Homunculus @ 10.00
—————————————————————————–
It is the attitude he has that nothing else matters in Scottish football that bothers me. The fact that it is the biggest draw in Scottish football is not disputed, especially but not only because it is marketed as the "Old Firm". Not sure Scottish football, or Scotland, should be too proud of the reasons behind why it is such a draw. Personally I have little or no interest in the bigot fest!
bordersdon 17th October 2020 at 13:19
Why would you, you don't support either team.
I have little interest when Dundee play Dundee Utd.
Homunculus 17th October 2020 at 14:37
————————————————————————-
Oh I can have an interest in matches that do not involve my team. Just not the "Crown Jewels".
Am I the only one waiting with bated breath for the arrival of the blog obsessive to explain that today's result is all part of Peter's masterplan ? It was a comprehensive defeat in a pretty poor game for his club , and I find it difficult to fathom out his intentions . It's almost like he's not in control .
Homunculus 17th October 2020 at 14:37
Why would you, you don't support either team.
I have little interest when Dundee play Dundee Utd
_______________________________
I enjoy the Tayside derby when it happens usually a great game
Speaking of poetry ( as some were the other day!) I simply have to refer to the prize-winning poem that was published in yesterday's 'Scotsman'. I daresay it was widely mentioned as a news item and that most of you will have seen it and read it.
If you haven't, it's worth a read as an (incidental) reminder that there are other concerns than football news, good or bad!
“TOTAL”
All slow summer long £ 9.99
I have been living £ 6.90
in a glass jar of anxiety £16.60
and dreading £ 7.68
a day in August £ 6.57
when a devious envelope £12.90
with a barbed paper tongue £ 3.76
will slither through the door £ 2.46
to determine my fate £ 6.83
with only a few letters: £ 5.80
grades that might £ 5.45
be as sharp as blades £ 9.90
or as soft as rising dough £ 5.67
At the end of the day , is this £ 3.54
all that I amount to? £12.80
five letters on a flimsy £ 6.53
ghost of paper? £ 6.45
The narrowest indication £ 3.87
of my past £ 7.90
and my future . £14.90
God, these £ 1.65
endless days of waiting £ 8.76
and balancing on these
tenterhook £17.76
cobweb tightropes just
won't do £ 4.50
they just won't do £ 14.90
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I don't want to be calculated £ 8.76
counted , £ 6.84
or summed up £ 7.36
in cold numbers and letters £ 3.56
that are typed by robotic
fingers £ 4.90
that have no grace nor growth,£ 23.90
because I am breathtakingly £ 16.00
three dimensional, and £ 5.35
to total me £ 2.95
would be like £ 0.90
trying to add up the breeze.£??.?????
*// Please retain receipt for your
records//
Poem by Anna Gilmore Heezen (aged 17) published in 'The Scotsman”on 15 October 2020
Anna, a pupil of Kilgraston School, was the Scottish winner of the global 'Foyle Young Poets of the Year' competition.
The poem was written a week before 'results' day, and relates to 'examination stress' and the summing up of the worth a whole personality as if personality were nomore than supermarket purchases summed up on a till receipt.
Anna is not personally known by ,or related to, me. And I have received no money for drawing attention to her work, but a great deal of pleasure at her poetic inventiveness.
Aye, okay, the sweet balm of poesy is OT!
Just glad I've not been banned!
Good to see some creativity from the young Anna, an excellent effort. She refers to numbers and as a pupil at Kilgraston, she won't have many worries collecting receipts with a long of list of them. It made we wonder if in 2020 you can to a degree, buy creativity, or at least the space in which to find it….or is adversity still a place that can produce the very best creation ?
This made me think about the relationship between creativity and money. Not as good as Anna but here goes……..
Elyanousi £16.5m
Barkas £4.5m
Duffy £2m
Laxalt £13m
Ntcham £5m
Ajeti £5m
Klimala £3.5m
Brown £4m
Ajer £600k
Turnbull £3m
Taylor £3m
Frimpong £400k
TOTAL……………….0
———
I think of Liverpool and Man Utd and their commercial proposal last week alongside where the world finds itself and wonder if greed will end up cracking the golden egg or are the new generations ever more moulded and compliant, as per the need of those with the power to do so.
reasonablechap 18th October 2020 at 08:55
This made me think about the relationship between creativity and money.
______________________________________
I'd have hoped that a fan of the current club playing out of Ibrox such as yourself might automatically have thought of the circa £154,000,000 owed to 276 creditors that was creatively described as having nothing to do with Rangers Football Club and everything to do with a fictitional holding company.
Highlander 18th October 2020 at 09:20
'..creatively described as having nothing to do with Rangers Football Club and everything to do with a fictional holding company.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Highlander, go to the top of the class!
That is a brilliantly clever and truthful observation anent the ugly, rotten, evil untruthfulness of the minds and hearts of those in Governance of Scottish Football and of those selfish , greedy s.ds who ripped off so many shareholders, small businesses and taxpayers generally.
Re A poem
2012
AK Ray, Ross Hall Hospital, Glasgow, £150
ADI UK, Preston, £7620
AS St Etienne, France, £252,212.39
ASL, East Sussex £2514
Acies Group, Edinburgh, £2340
Adrian Coll, Balloch, £1600
Alan Duncan, Glasgow, £1400
Alexander West Property, Glasgow, £2807
Alison Walker TV, Bearsden, £600
Alliance Video, Surrey, £204
Aon Limited, London, £14,151
Arena Imaging, Derby, £336
Argyll and Bute Council £406.80
Arsenal Football Club £136,560
Astra Hygiene Supplies, Dumbarton, £61.27
Audi Stirling £396.05
Azure Support Services, Macclesfield, £523,949.71
Azzurri Scotland, Burnley, £34.63
BTWShiells, Belfast, £2917.39
Barr Environmental Limited, Cumnock, £264
Base Soccer Agency, London, £52,560
Bauer Radio Ltd (Radio Clyde) £702
Beyard Services, Beith, £5559.60
Bhutta’s Newsagents, Glasgow, £567.45
Big Think Agency, Glasgow, £14,265.60
Blooms UK Limited, Glasgow, £70
Brabners, Manchester, £12,999
Brentwood Estates, Manchester, £42,963.06
Brian Proudfoot, Glasgow, £2802
British Gas £1562.42
Ibrox Stadium (Image: Mark Runnacles/Getty Images)
BT £1292.13
Business Cost Consultants, Glasgow, £6240.60
Business Stream, Edinburgh, £9727.22
CNP Professional, Cheshire, £719.96
CRE8, Gloucester, £68,406.70
Cairn Financial, London, £4127.60
Cairns & Scott Caterhire, Glasgow, £762
Cameron Presentations, Glasgow, £8795.99
Campbell Medical Supplies, Paisley, £3386.73
Camtec, Hertfordshire, £552
Canniesburn Taxis, Bearsden, £269.69
Capital Solutions, Edinburgh, £11,423.40
Capito Ltd, Livingston, £1049.69
Carberry’s Coaches, Portadown, Co Armagh, £1200
Carnival Chaos Production, Edinburgh, £672
Carol Govan, Glasgow, £600
Cask Productions, Glasgow, £1980
Cask Sports, Glasgow, £2919.60
Catercare Scotland, Stewarton, £420
Charlton Chauffeur Drive, Glasgow, £792
Chelsea FC £238,345.43
Childcare Vouchers, London, £1143.74
Chilli It, Chester, £416.52
Chris Clarke, Kilmarnock, £150
Christine Siebelt, Milngavie, £1100
Citrus Office Solutions, Lancashire, £4304.24
City Electrical Factors, Glasgow, £215.40
Clyde Productions, Glasgow, £180
Coca Cola £10,133.91
Colin Suggett, Sunderland, £741.80
Collstream Limited, Derby, £5779.37
Collyer Bristow, London, £40,691.22
Colours Agency, Glasgow, £1980
Computer Links, Livingston, £2146.32
Computershare Investor Service, Bristol, £23,855.03
Craig Services & Access, East Sussex, £900
Culture & Sport Glasgow £10,338.96
Daily Record & Sunday Mail £312
DealBureau Commercial Finance, Southend, £10,000
Decco Limited, Glasgow, £174.72
Dell Computer Corporation, Berkshire, £272.85
Direct Medical Imaging, Lancashire, £230
Disclosure Scotland £372
Dominique S Byrne, Nuffield Hospital, Glasgow, £160
Dr David A S Marshall, Bridge of Weir, £160
Dundas & Wilson, Edinburgh, £24,027.84
E.ON £8827.14
Eagle Consulting, Inverness, £40
Eagle Couriers, Bathgate, £96.60
Eden Springs, Blantyre, £644.64
Edinburgh Audi £5197.08
Electrical Waste Recycling, County
Durham, £18
Enterprise Rent-a-Car, Stirling, £9000
Events Audio Visual, Clydebank, £300
Exchequer Corporate Finance , Surrey, £4000
Executive Hire, Harlow, £1060
FES FM, Stirling, £80,874.93
FL Memo, London, £116.86
FX Signs, Glasgow, £15,546.56
G Media Mangement, Cheltenham, £995
G4S, Surrey, £295,036.24
GTG Training, Glasgow, £396
Gareth Neil Design, Glasgow, £3200
Gerry McGeoch, Glasgow, £150
Glasgow Audi £1041.62
Glasgow City Council £5000
Glasgow City Council (Council Tax) £2008.21
Glasgow Leading Attractions (The Willow Tea Rooms) £1525
Glasgow Taxis £TBC
Glencairn Crystal Studio, East Kilbide £354
Gordon McKay, Blackridge, £150
HOBS Reprographics, Glasgow, £270.15
HSS Hire Service £67.10
Hamilton Brothers, Bishopton, £115.56
Hay McKerron Associates, Milngavie, £3600
Hepscott Water Systems, Morpeth, £1190.28
Hrvoje Bojanic Beethoveova, Zagreb, Croatia, £2898.42
Hutchesons Eductational Trust, Glasgow £550
ILC Media, Preston, £2040
IMG Media, Chiswick £180
Impact Signs, Cumbernauld, £9482.79
Integrated Cleaning Management, Hampshire, £3329.19
Iris Chorus Application Software, Devon, £5973.60
Iris Ticketing, Devon, £37,210.42
Iron Mountain, Livingston, £1271.16
JCM Business Consulting, Paisley, £2745
JJB Sports £19,390.59
James Gordon (Engineers), Galston, £1437.68
Jewson, Glasgow, £930.60
Joe Lennon Picture Framing, Bearsden, £840
John Deere, Gloucester, £41,191.59
K7X, Ayr, £240
Kalamazoo Secure Solutions, Birmingham, £4017
Keith Hawley, Glasgow, £2600
Kevin Cameron Radio Service, Paisley, £600
Kube Networks, Glasgow, £7672.08
L & S Litho, Glasgow, £17,035.04
Lothian Power Clean, Larkhall, £194.34
LSK Supplies, Glasgow, £178.58
Lawrie Furnishings, Paisley, £607.20
Limelight Networks, Arizona, £2333.49
Link Seating Limited, Worcestershire, £606.98
Loomis UK, Nottingham, £2248.08
Louis Grace Electrical, Glasgow, £1087.84
Lyco Direct Limited , Milton Keynes, £2381.27
MSM Solicitors, Paisley, £420
MacGregor Industrial Supplies, Inverness, £106.76
Mackinnon Partners, Gourock, £200
Manchester City FC £328,248.71
Manea Florin Bucharest £37,500
Mar Hall, Bishopton, £5511.90
Marsh Ltd UK, Norwich, £779.10
Martin Dawes, Warrington, £654.74
Media House, Glasgow, £19,200
MediaCom, Edinburgh, £11,544.42
Menzies Hotels, Derbyshire, £257.40
Michael Douglas, Glasgow, £100
Milngavie Mini Market £413.29
Modular Property Holdings, Glasgow, £20,930.22
Motif Promotional Clothing, Glasgow, £27.29
Murray Group Holdings, Edinburgh, £278,964.30
Nairn Brown (Glasgow) £1492.50
National Car Rental, Leicester, £162.52
Navyblue Design Group, Edinburgh, £6960
Newline Products, Glasgow, £7001
Newsquest (Herald & Times) £1500
Nexo S.A., France, £1799.37
Nicola Young, Glasgow, £3500
Noble Grossart, Edinburgh, £18,612
Nordic Scouting, Oslo, £20,000
North Glasgow College, £11,041.80
OHSS, Edinburgh, £234
OfficeFurnitureOnline.co.uk, Dumfries, £338.40
Ooyala, California, £733.92
Opal Telecom £169.72
Orebro SK £150,000
Oxford Hotels & Inns (Carnoustie) £3709.96
PR Newswire Europe £300
PTS – Plumbing Trade Supplies, Leicester, £30.42
Paramed, Howwood, £1050
Parklands Country Club, Glasgow, £500
Parks of Hamilton £7256
Paton Plant, York, £1450.16
Perform Group, Middlesex, £346,097.43
Pineapple Aroundshot, Co Durham, £2316.96
Pineapple Photographic, Co Durham, £5875
Ping Network Solutions, Glasgow, £4020.25
Plum Films, Edinburgh, £3000
Posh Deli, Glasgow, £260
Postage by Phone, Essex, £510.80
Premier Cash Registers, Glasgow, £12,600
Prime Commercial Properties
Management, London, £10,805.53
Professional Pre-Season Tours (Libero), Glasgow, £60,000
Quick Shift Tyre Service, Glasgow, £48
R.F.Brown, Hamilton, £1681.44
RBS WorldPay, Cambridge, £180.66
RS Components Limited, Northants, £204.95
Rangers Lotteries Ltd, Glasgow, £105.80
Reed Business Information, Surrey, £2764.80
Renfrewshire Council HQ £108
Restore Scotland, Paisley, £579.74
Rigby Taylor Limited, Bolton, £10,762.16
Rodgers Sercurity Systems, Glasgow, £342.50
Ross Hall Hospital, Glasgow, £770.50
Ross Promotional, Glasgow, £1022.88
Royal Mail £3262.54
SDL Group, Glasgow, £1350
SG World, Cheshire, £577.56
SIR Teknologi, West Sussex, £TBC
SK Rapid, Austria, £1,011,763.44
STRI, West Yorkshire, £17.28
Saffery Champness, Glasgow, £31,028.01
Scot-West Business Forms, Glasgow, £749.60
Scotprint, Haddington, £7514
Scotrae Productions, Greenock, £17,058.94
Scottish Ambulance Service £8438.40
Scottish Hydro Electric £62,527.30
Scottish Power £302.44
Search Promotional Merchandise, Buckinghamshire, £6240
Shanks Waste Management, Southampton, £122.58
Sharon Agnew, Glasgow, £460
Shawfield Timber, Glasgow, £786.24
Shell UK £7637.94
Shields Land Rover, Glasgow, £246.75
Shred-it Glasgow £444
Sign Plus, Dunfermline, £2473.22
Signature Industries, London, £1507.90
Simplewaste Solutions, Clydebank, £17,626.26
Sinclair Pharmacy, Glasgow, £1909.79
Slater Menswear , Glasgow, £688.31
Solutions.tv, Glasgow, £2652
Sound Acoustic Productions, Glasgow, £12,000
Souters Irrigation Services, Cumbernauld, £456
Spike Multiedia, Giffnock, £5312.50
Sporting iD, Tyne and Wear, £144.70
Sportopps.com, Belfast, £150
Sports Alliance, Bury, £2006.65
Sports Revolution, London, £5034.52
Stellar Football, London, £72,000
Stirling Fire Protection £1149.30
Stockline Plastics, Glasgow, £258
Strathclyde Police £51,882
Striking Imagery, Cumbernauld, £113.51
Stuart MacMorran, Clydebank, £422.50
Summit Asset Management, Surrey, £70,555.88
Susan Thomson Your Sonsie Face,
Glasgow, £40
TNT £1255.39
Tabs FM, London, £1980
Tellcomm Limited, West Midlands, £6435.89
The Arco Group, Hull, £443.43
The Brite Bulb, Bishopbriggs, £3209.64
The Burnbrae, Bearsden £1403.88
The Business & Property Bureau,
Bearsden, £7376
The Business Incentives Group, Glasgow, £1893.60
The City of Edinburgh Council £90
The Fees Company, Edinburgh, £118.16
The Financial Times £3480
The Scottish Football League £3859.92
The Premier Property Group, Edinburgh, £103,210.96
Thistle International Freight, Paisley, £128.42
Thistle Storage Equipment, Cumbernauld, £140.40
Thomas Cook Sport, Manchester, £129,216.56
Ticket Team, Netherlands, £873.36
Ticketline Network, Manchester, £11,668.67
Trade UK (Screwfix) £77.01
Trident Trust Company, Jersey, £40,689.90
UK Fast, Manchester, £689.78
US Citta di Palermo, Italy, £205,513.04
Umbro £1756.05
University of the West of Scotland £135
Vodafone £204
Voicescape, Manchester, £786.84
William Henderson, Glasgow £275
Yuill & Kyle Solicitors, Glasgow £1,486.80
Celtic FC £40,337
Dundee United FC £65,981.49
Dunfermline Athletic FC £83,370.13
Heart of Midlothian FC £800,000
Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC £39,805
SPL £22,500
SFA £11,089.04
HM Revenue & Customs £14,372,042
Ticketus, London, £26,700,000
Debenture Holders (various) £7,736,000
Season Ticket Holders (various) £TBC
Employees Various £TBC
Big Boab 1916
Sit beside Highlander at the top of the class!
Lest we forget should be the title!
Apologies for my misspelling of the word fictional in my previous post above. It appears I may have inadvertently invented the word ‘fictitional’. I rather like it and can see it being used to describe a host of circumstances, such as the press releases from Ibrox and Hampden. Thanks to JC, who clearly noticed my error but spared my blushes by not mentioning it.
reasonablechap 18th October 2020 at 08:55
This made me think about the relationship between creativity and money.
…………….
That got me thinking of how creative Ally McCoist was in getting a Golden contract and become the highest paid manager in scottish football and at the same time managing a team in the lower divisions of scottish football.And no one knew until a certain court case that he had a Golden contract, how creative was he in keeping it concealed, even walter never knew about it.
Don't want to talk about a certain football game, but the SMSM coverage instead.
Another reason why I'm quite happy to see the likes of The Sun, The Glasgow Times, and others bite the dust.
Their Scottish football coverage over the last week sunk to a new low, IMO.
The focus was pretty much all consuming about the game at Parkhead, [Scotland game aside].
The usual saber rattling by assorted 'pundits' and other nonsense – as per usual.
But, there were a few articles which seemed to reach new depths.
– The story about a pin showing a TRFC employee holding up the head of the CFC manager. Ok, there are morons everywhere in life – but why would a newspaper choose to even report such an offensive story, if only to stir up trouble?
– Another story included a "p@rn star" (?) attacking a fan. That was the gist of the headline and accompanying photo. Why? Why would any paper publish such nonsense?
– And there was the breathless reporting of 'trouble' outside Celtic Park – with riot vans 'summoned'. The story included the unforgettable – and puzzling – quote that;
"…Celtic fans stormed parking lots surrounding Celtic Park".
I know I'm probably daft for even looking at the SMSM, but curiosity got the better of me.
I didn't read one decent footy article last week in the SMSM.
I do however, occasionally read decent footy articles in other sources such as The Guardian (footy!), The BBC, (excluding Scotland).
The SMSM adds nothing to sports coverage, IMO, so won't be missed!
Highlander 18th October 2020 at 11:53
'…who clearly noticed my error but spared my blushes by not mentioning it.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Actually, Highlander, I think you may indeed have invented a very useful word in 'fictitional' that beautifully introduces concepts of 'factional' and 'factitious' into the concept of 'fiction', such as to suggest that the SMSM football journalists were ,and are, both seriously partisan and (in consequence) deliberately misleading in their failure to tell the full truth about 'The Liquidation', or denounce the Big Lie or push for investigation into the Res 12 issue.
And after such good, honest day one banner headlines as well , about the end of 140 years of history ! (How JT in particular must squirm at the recollection!)
I doubt if History has any other example of such a volte-face: not even the bl–dy German press in the 1930s embraced Nazi untruth anything like as quickly or as accommodatingly as the SMSM embraced and endorsed the SFA/Ibrox 'Big Lie'
[ Even as I write, there are some German words ( 'vessel and horse?] and a bit of a tune with them ,echoing in my head from having heard a BBC Radio 4 programme a few weeks ago., which had something to do with the history of the Third Reich. Can't quite pin them down exactly. I would ask the BBC, except that I might not trust their answer!
]
bigboab1916 18th October 2020 at 11:31
"Re A poem
Susan Thomson Your Sonsie Face,
Glasgow, £40."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I agree with bect67 18th October 2020 at 11:38
'Sit beside Highlander at the top of the class!'
In the interests of absolute truth, I need to ask: wasn't the face painter paid by some Rangers fans who were embarrassed at what Murray's cheating had done to so many 'small' people?
I may be wrong in that, of course.
And in the passing, as regards private schools, I came across this on the website of one such school
". OUTSTANDING 2020 EXAM RESULTS WITH 100% PASSING ALL ADVANCED HIGHERS'
And I was immediately grateful for Highlander's new coining of 'fictitional'.
I know a man who as a boy went to a private school. He was not all that clever at one particular subject, struggling to get a 'decent' pass mark in mock examinations in that subject.
There was absolutely no way that he was going to be put forward for a ' Highers' in that subject! The school was not going to take any chances on anyone who might fail and thereby damage the school's academic achievement percentage!
So, while it may be true that '100% passed all advanced Highers' it may also be the case that only those pupils were put forward whom the teaching staff were pretty certain would pass!
In my own school days, there were ,out of a class of about 30, only about 4 put forward for the then Higher maths ( and bugger the American 'math'!).
The 'weakest' of these ended up working for NASA at Cape Canaveral!
Fictitional?
A very good word indeed!
No, my post of 23.21 above was incorrect in a detail: there were 6, not 4, chaps put forward for the Higher Maths ( all of whom, unsurprisingly, passed) I remember very clearly the names of 4, but I've now given myself a cause for anxiety! FFS, how can I not remember the other 2!
John Clark 18th October 2020 at 22:52
I think you are right in that Rangers' fans paid the face painter and other small debts , but they would still appear on the list of creditors of the club that was sent to liquidation .
paddy malarkey 19th October 2020 at 00:14
'..they would still appear on the list of creditors of the club '
""""""""""""""
Yes, of course, the wretched, dishonourable 'knight' ( God save us, that we should still 'honour 'dishonourable people!) still owes the girl , and all the other people his cheating damaged.
Will he pay them?
Not a chance!
Guys like him, and there are, as we have learned from the 'saga', plenty of them?
There is probably not a place in hell hot enough to punish them adequately!
StevieBC 18th October 2020 at 14:56
Don't want to talk about a certain football game, but the SMSM coverage instead.
Another reason why I'm quite happy to see the likes of The Sun, The Glasgow Times, and others bite the dust.
Their Scottish football coverage over the last week sunk to a new low, IMO.
The focus was pretty much all consuming about the game at Parkhead, [Scotland game aside].
I know I'm probably daft for even looking at the SMSM, but curiosity got the better of me.
The SMSM adds nothing to sports coverage, IMO, so won't be missed!
===========%%%============
Was it not The Sun that decided that you wouldn't be missed when they banned you ?
At least I think it was you that recently informed the blog of this. Apologies if it's a case of mistaken identity.
I'd ask if in fact all of these publications are going to bite the dust. What IMO seems to be happening is that they are all in the midst of a long ongoing adaption to digital and they know fine well that the print format is gradually being squeezed out.
Regarding Scottish fitbaw, the sensationalist redtops now seem to publish much more online material, constantly changing their online backpage throughout the day with stuff that would never have previously got past the editor. They trawl about related websites looking for any old muck and rubbish that they think will produce clicks….and they seem to get them. If you consume that, then don't be surprised to see a large percentage of rubbish.
My take is that the old broadsheet publications have generally lowered themselves to tabloid content level and the tabloids are now comics.
Do newspapers retain an important level of influence?
Somewhat diluted due to more online competition but as it stands, they are still major players in the influencing game. A major downside for the punter is that generally there will be more power concentrated in fewer outlets as the economic carnage begins to be more visual and damaging. This is also true at levels way beyond and more important than the fitbaw.
I mentioned Julian Assange recently. Look what happens to an organisation that exposes corrupt power and has a 100% accuracy level. The government and agencies would rather invest in the Integrity Initiative, accuracy isn't desirable. That is important as to how the whole business standard is run, including Scottish fitbaw. IMO if you really want change you have to aim high.
Stevie, as for the press or any fitbaw media, I'd advise you to lay off it for a few days as the new low that you speak of levels out.
reasonablechap 19th October 2020 at 08:52
……………
Go into any Newsagents in the morning and what use to be a stack of newspapers has just become a small bundle. Most just have a few issues of each daily now,and even they don’t sell out. By this time next year i believe if you want a newspaper you will have to order it, like ordering a magazine from the shop.
John Clark 19th October 2020 at 00:53
paddy malarkey 19th October 2020 at 00:14
‘..they would still appear on the list of creditors of the club ‘
………………………..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/17543328
…………..
I believe the fighting fund paid the face painter. happy to be corrected. nice gesture but then spoiled when they pick and choose who to do a nice gesture to. kind of a ruines the whole appeal of the whole thing. Even trying to do some good they can’t shake off that victim hood mentality.
It would be nice if they let the customers know the questions and results , just raw data rather than spin .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54604857
Cluster One 19th October 2020 at 11:14
Quite a few small businesses and firms were paid by Rangers Fans Fighting Fund , but they were and still are creditors of RFC(IL) . I thought it was a great gesture from them .
I don't know if I'd fancy being in TRFC's shoes this week , with a visit to Belgium , where the spread of covid-19 seems to be beyond the authorities ability to control .
How pleasant to see a company being bought out of Administration and thereby kept alive!
That’s how I read the news that ‘Flybe’ has been bought out of Administration as a going concern by Cyrus Capital LP ltd., a hedge fund of which the 75% shareholder and ‘person of significant control’ is Mr Stephen C Freidheim, of the New York parent company of the London Cyrus Capital LP.
Cyrus Capital Partners, L.P. is an investment fund managing more than $291 million .
Interestingly enough, I note that
“Cyrus Capital Partners, L.P. closed its position in ‘American Airls Group Inc’ as recently as 14th August 2020. It sold the previously owned 3,823,547 shares for $46.6 million”
What I have just written is true and easily verifiable but, honestly, I scarcely begin to understand it!
The basic point is that ( as far as my limited intelligence goes) Flybe will not enter Liquidation, the Administrators having done a better job than Duff and Phelps, but will be bought as the legal entity it is.
Ownership will of course change, but there will be no need to apply to the Civil Aviation Authority as a brand new legal entity seeking an operating licence in the way that the brand new TRFC had to seek ,beg for, admission ( and consequent entitlement to to SFA membership) into Scottish professional football as a brand new football club with not one ‘legitimate’ game of football to their credit at the time except as ‘Club 12’
I’ve had a very enjoyable couple of hours on and off today , in and out of the Companies House website and looking up one or two links this evening, which included looking at the ‘Flybe’ administrators’ report ( and their eye-watering ‘remuneration’)[ I definitely made the wrong career choice!]
Just afore I go in to join Mrs C in watching episode whatever of ‘Hidden’, I will look up Mr Stephen C Freidheim, to see what is publicly known about him.
My post of 23.12:
"Freidheim has served on several corporate boards, including that of the airline Virgin America, which he also cofounded. He chairs CFR’s Investment Committee and the executive committee of the board of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. He serves on the Yale University Council and the advisory board of the Tobin Center for Economic Policy.
Freidheim received a BA in economics from Yale University."
I'll go and watch 'Hidden' now!
Recently we had Liverpool and ManU test the water with their "Project Big Picture" – to shake up the EPL in particular.
Now, we've just had some EPL clubs' supporters loudly protest against Pay Per View for additional games, at £15 a pop.
Newcastle fans organised themselves to pay this match fee instead to a local food bank – raising c.£19K as a result.
Presumably, the draft, (& final), "Project Big Picture" will be based on robust TV ratings/subscriptions/revenues?
Presumably, underpinning the projections are ever increasing viewing numbers?
This push back from NUFC fans and others might raise some doubt on the assumptions made by the American owners of Liverpool and ManU?
reasonablechap 18th October 2020 at 08:55
I think of Liverpool and Man Utd and their commercial proposal last week alongside where the world finds itself and wonder if greed will end up cracking the golden egg or are the new generations ever more moulded and compliant, as per the need of those with the power to do so.
=====================
I wrote the above a couple of days ago….Good to hear of a positve push back from Newcastle Utd. fans.
Today I read the news….
Talks have taken place over the creation of a new £4.6bn European Premier League, involving the top sides from across the continent.
Sources told the BBC that discussions are still at an early stage but the plan would involve replacing the Champions League with a new format.
Industry insiders confirmed talks involved Wall Street bank JP Morgan.
But the project is said to still have a "long way to go" and the deal "may not happen".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54621189
=============
Many financial vultures are currently very active looking to take advantage of the current world health crisis with a reset that they are at the heart of. As far as European football is concerned, I think they underestimate the revulsion that will build up amongst a client base that will already be squeezed until the pips are long gone. Real poverty and misery are coming to parts of the West, like we haven't seen since in most of our lifetimes and billionaire football won't go down well.
As someone who has a keen interest in rugby I peruse various blogs and news sites on that sport.
This caught my eye
https://scottishrugbyphilosopher.blogspot.com/2020/10/iam-told-long-awaited-sruaccounts-for.html?m=1
The writer is an old sports journalist who obviously keeps in touch with his contacts.
specifically it was this comment that caused me to pause
“It seems, dressing rooms (possibly) and shower rooms (definitely) will require a lot of adaption before they can be used.”
this could be the death knell for community sports of all types not least football sides. it’s hard enough keeping facilities open at the best of times but doing major works on top of the clubhouse being closed could be the final straw
I have no idea if this is a goer or not has anyone else heard anything?
dom16 20th October 2020 at 17:41
'I AM told, the long-awaited SRU Accounts for season 2019-20 will be released before the end of the month. Things have naturally been delayed because of the Covid-19 restrictions, but, they are apparently ready to be signed-off at an upcoming meeting."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Your Rugby link ,dom16: my eye was caught by
'I AM told, the long-awaited SRU Accounts for season 2019-20 will be released before the end of the month. Things have naturally been delayed because of the Covid-19 restrictions, but, they are apparently ready to be signed-off at an upcoming meeting."
Surely the SRU is not shy about publishing its accounts (like RIFC plc ?)
Perhaps ,like RIFC plc , they will take advantage of the extension of time given by Companies House, and not post their accounts until into next year?
JC
The SRU have played with their accounts for a number of years. Miraculously last year they were “debt free”. That’s if you ignore short term debt and debentures totally over £20m
They also operate the two professional teams but lump all high performance spend into one bucket so you can’t work out what each team actually spends/costs.
this years accounts have been caught out by Covid and lack of an independent audit as many companies have.
oh and the CEO earned nearly £1M last year 18/19.
Apart from that all tickety boo
dom16 20th October 2020 at 21:27
‘…oh and the CEO earned nearly £1M last year 18/19.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Thank you for the information in your post, dom16.
I vaguely remembered a wee stooshie about the CEO’s earnings , and a quick google brought up this
“The controversial £933,000 head of Scottish Rugby is hiring front-line staff at below the living wage, the Sunday Mail can reveal. Adverts for staff at less than the £9.30 an hour seen as necessary to fund a basic life were published in the same week that Scottish Rugby Union CEO Mark Dodson’s outrageous salary emerged”
Mind you, it was the Daily Record that reported that, so there’s every possibility that scarce a word of it may have been accurate or reported in proper context ( eg spelling out how much was basic salary and how much might have been performance bonuses)
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/rugby-union-boss-paid..
'Liverpool and Man U in talks about joining a new European Premier league " of 18 teams, I read.
It's a wonder that our SMSM journalistic sleuths aren't already 'reporting' that TRFC will be one of the 18!
Whatever the present attitude of UEFA, there does seem to be the beginnings of a real push by the billionaire clubs.
dom16 / JC;
That SRU CEO salary level is a surprise.
It then leads onto the observation that our very own Doncaster and Maxwell must feel seriously underpaid at only c.£400K / £300K p.a.!
'Generally', I don't have a problem with CEO's earning large, highly incentivised incomes – as long as they are delivering obvious and significant improvements.
I can't comment about the SRU CEO, but from what I've seen of the SFA and SPFL/SPL CEO roles, they seem more like 'Chief Administrator' type roles – rather than dynamic, organisational leader type roles.
Hence, both Doncaster and Maxwell are probably seriously overpaid for what they actually do, IMO.
To state the bleedin' obvious, again…
Stevie,
Dodson was considered a ‘rain-maker’ when he was appointed: he was expected to bring in multiples of millions of quid in investment & sponsorship every year. He was also expected to operate at a very high level in the corridors of power, both rugby & political. I can’t comment on how well he meets his those KPIs.
As to his (reported) salary: you have to remember that Scotland’s rugby team is ranked eighth in the world. His stipend is likely commensurate with others (perhaps not all, though) in the top ten, even though the SRU is a relatively small operation.
Scotland’s football team isn’t in the top ten; it’s barely in the top 50 at 49: I doubt that their counterparts in Ghana & Costa Rica (who are joint 46th) & Jamaica (who are 48th) have salaries that are similar to those of Maxwell & Doncaster.
Hommunculus
"I have little interest in Dundee v Dundee Utd" (or anyone else except Celtic it seems)
I think we have already worked that out
HS
Fernando Gaviria has tested positive for covid-19 for the second time in a year in the Giro de Italia . Maybe any immunity is short lived , which to me would suggest that we are never going back to what was previosly regarded as normal .
John Clark @09.31
The Harlem Globetrotters are coming to a stadium near you. Well maybe not in Scotland.
thanks JJ. I have to say that’s the first time I’ve heard that Dodson was a “rainmaker”. He’s nicknamed TCD in rugby circles – that female anatomy Dodson.
his track record at Guardian Media group wouldn’t support that either as back copies of Private Eye will attest to.
what is interesting though is the eye watering amounts of money that some sports administrators get. It is after all what they are.
Dodson is also more highly paid than the CEOs of England and Welsh rugby for running a much smaller organisation.
you may also recall the stoosh during the World Cup in Japan when we were eventually fined £70k for indiscreet comments from Dodson
Higgy's Shoes 21st October 2020 at 14:07
Hommunculus
"I have little interest in Dundee v Dundee Utd" (or anyone else except Celtic it seems)
==================================
I'll just put in what I actually said as you have chosen to misquote me for some reason.
"I have little interest when Dundee play Dundee Utd."
I have no issue in how you interpret my words, but please don't change a quote if you are going to use the facility, it really is a bit off.
It also really needs the context, it was a reply to "Personally I have little or no interest in the bigot fest!"
People might not like Neil Doncaster daring to suggest that Celtic playing Rangers is the biggest draw for television purposes. That doesn't make what he said incorrect though.
What's the saying, play the ball not the man.
I note the discussion on the renumeration packages of CEO's.
It would be remiss of me not to bring the best paid CEO in Scottish football into the conversation. IIRC Peter, reportedly trousered around a million sterling in one recent year.
Maybe he is being underpaid what with his current workload. Whilst he successfully helped avoid an independent investigation into his friends at the SPFL back in the summer, he is now carrying out his own, looking for a mole.
A serious point though, the levels of renumeration for CEO's relative to ordinary workers wage started to get out of control in Thatchers 1980's and have since only got worse. Now would be a good time to reduce them significantly accross the whole economy.
The skewed distribution of wealth is at the root of much of what is wrong with the whole shooting match, never mind Scottish football. That wealth has purchased power and have rigged so called democracies and so called sport.
In the 1930's there was a recognition that you could only squeeze those at the bottom so much before you had to give something back, otherwise they would rise up against you. Today, those up on high think they can ride it out and keep squeezing.
For Scottish football, IMO the outlook is bleak.
Over at Parkhead, my guess is that whilst the fans talk of 10*, priority number one for Peter is to secure a lucrative place for the PLC within any major European footballing reorganisation. If successful, his renumeration could get even higher but it poses a question…..
How comfortable with such a direction of travel would the PLC supporters be ? I know I wouldn't be if it were my team. There is currently much more at play than just football.
The direction of travel of Scottish Football altered dramatically with the creation (for utterly sordid reasons) of the Big Lie: the sport in Scotland was contaminated, and remains contaminated. The path of Sporting Integrity and honest recognition of sporting achievements etc was abandoned, and lies were told to accommodate a new club's false claim to be something that it most emphatically is not.
The creation of whatever kind of new leagues would not of itself involve the Football authorities having to create, support and propagate sporting untruths that defy all reason ,common sense and commercial and football 'law'
There is a Q&A interview with Stuart Gibson on the Evening Times website.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18815531.rangers-q-stuart-gibson-5million-share-purchase-future-ibrox-investment-becoming-director-gers-finances/?ref=twtrec
Here is an extract that appears to suggest that TRFC will be fine financially for a while.
easyJambo 22nd October 2020 at 22:46
'..Here is an extract that appears to suggest that TRFC will be fine financially for a while.'
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I've just read the whole piece, eJ, and thanks for posting the link.
It is a quite brilliant piece: a simple, humble, self-deprecating 'loyal fan not looking for anything'
According to Companies House, Aberdeen has just issued of 9,074,220 new shares at 32p, raising £2.9m.
easyJambo 23rd October 2020 at 14:11
'…Aberdeen has just issued of 9,074,220 new shares at 32p, raising £2.9m.'
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Have they a pressing need for cash (perhaps for covid-19 related expenses?) and difficulties in borrowing?
John Clark 23rd October 2020 at 18:43
Have they a pressing need for cash (perhaps for covid-19 related expenses?) and difficulties in borrowing?
============================
I'm unaware of them having any debts to be repaid since Dave Cormack took over. However, like all clubs, they are spending money just keeping things going with reduced income, so I think the cash will just be used for operating expenses.
Think you are right EJ. Never good to raise capital to meet operating expenses? Needs must for us I'm thinking. What other new club has being doing this for years??
Once regime change came about in 2015, Rangers plan was always to go with a structured loss for a number of years that would be financed within the rules. IIRC around five years was the projected timescale within which we were looking to regain the League Championship, get the building blocks in place regards the business and look to break even / run at a profit.
There have been setbacks along the way but we seem to be getting there *
* However it has to be noted that the economic fallout from the pandemic is an existential threat for all clubs. In a bad case virus scenario, I think it could become deadly for some clubs at the back end of this season / summer 2021 when many fans may be unable to renew or continue their financial support for their respective clubs.
reasonablechap 23rd October 2020 at 22:31
“…the pandemic is an existential threat for all clubs.”
Could you just hold on until I get my popcorn before you go on to explain how an immortal metaphysical entity such as a football club could conceivably have its very existence threatened?
reasonablechap 23rd October 2020 at 22:31
"..the projected timescale within which we were looking to regain the League Championship, '
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Eh, whit? "regain the league championship?"
The football club admitted into Scottish professional football in 2012 might, conceivably, gain the SPFL championship this season [ and, perhaps, deservedly so].
But of course it cannot possibly 'regain' it, because it has not ever before gained it!
TRFC is not, cannot in any way, be RFC of 1872.
You know it, I know it, the whole world of Scottish Football knows it.
The Lie is there, in plain view for all to see, whether in terms of 'business' law, or 'sporting law' or basic common sense!
Even our friend Goebbels would have had a hard time selling that Big Lie that lies at the heart of Scottish Football today.
And the the propagandists of the SMSM are but a poor shadow of 'no balls'!
JC
We better get used this this SMSM narrative and ‘clarion call’ to SEVCO apologists and ‘camp followers’ (which will be used incessantly, completely unashamedly and ‘ad nauseum’, in the coming months) as TRFC go for the ’55’!
The media is way past acknowledging the legal facts (i.e that the carcass lies in ‘Liquidation Row’) put forward by any reasonable chap – so to speak!
Although it’s a bit like Joe Biden denying any wrongdoing by his son/himself (eh – check the reports , e-mails, testimonies blah blah), we are stuck with this outrageous irresponsibility and denial by our SMSM – an integral part of the WATP philosophy.
The most effective way to silence this is to ………… (fill in the rest)
bect67 24th October 2020 @ 11.27
'..we are stuck with this outrageous irresponsibility and denial by our SMSM ..-
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The football journalists of the SMSM,bect67, were very much in my mind last night as I watched an episode of 'Roadkill', in which a newspaper editor meekly does what he is telt by the proprietor and kills a story that would lose the proprietor the good will of (even more vile) politicians in government.
I laughed as I watched, while recalling the fine words in the prospectus issued by a particular newspaper in 1817 which reads "The Conductors pledge themselves for impartiality, firmness and independence…Their first desire is to be honest, the second is to be useful…The great requisites for the task are only good sense, courage and industry"
If those 'Conductors' were themselves men of integrity who meant every word their pledge they will have been birling in their graves since 2012 at their newspaper's ready part in the propagation of an outrageously nonsensical untruth created by a Sport's governance body.
It's as much the sheer foolish absurdity of the lie as the fact that it is a lie , a clear-cut Untruth, that irritates me.
The liars in 'Roadkill' at least tell plausible lies!
reasonablechap 23rd October 2020 at 22:31
Once regime change came about in 2015, Rangers plan was always to go with a structured loss for a number of years.
…………
Ad Hoc king called it at his last AGM before lending £5mill.
…….
looking to regain the League Championship,
…..
The ibrox club have never won an SPFL Trophy. So how can they regain something they have never won?
…………..
get the building blocks in place regards the business and look to break even / run at a profit.
…
Once regime change came about in 2015,they have still not achived this run at a profit.
While awaiting my first view of The Mighty Jags this season, I was wondering if it would be possible for someone else to buy the old club (RFC)) out of liquidation, secure agreement with creditors and relaunch in say WOSFL ?
As it stands just now, and has done since it came into existence, Rangers is not run as a viable business model. It is a very expensive hobby for wealthy people.
The simple reason for that is that sustainable growth is not acceptable to the people who run the business, or those who support it. Especially not when another club from the same city is on it's way to potentially winning it's tenth successive league title. To say nothing of several consecutive trebles.
This is little different to the previous club which occupied the same stadium, that club ran up tens of millions in debt leading to David Murray re-structuring his own business to absorb that debt. That was part of a failed share issue which if memory serves he underwrote to the tune of £50m.
What did they do after that on, carried on with the same madness, leading to massive tax avoidance, substantial other debts and the liquidation of the club. All in the belief that they were too much of an institution for the establishment to allow that.
At least they seem, on the face of it, to be paying for it themselves this time. Rather than stealing from other people to achieve what they are achieving.
Which is actually very little so far. Year on year losses and not a major trophy to show for it.
paddy malarkey 24th October 2020 at 13:27
'..if it would be possible for someone else to buy the old club (RFC)) out of liquidation, secure agreement with creditors and relaunch in say WOSFL ? '
"""""""""""""""""""""
When the liquidators finish, RFC of 1872 would be dissolved.
Before dissolution it is theoretically possible (as Dave king knows) for someone to pay all the debts etc and bring the club out of Liquidation.
The practicalities of doing so would be problematic, to say the least. Would RFC of 1872 be legally entitled, without dispute, to membership of the SPL (which it lost only because it suffered the Insolvency event of Liquidation) ? In which case, would TRFC have to be stripped of its membership of the SPL to make room for RFC of '72, , and if so, on what grounds? Or would the SPL have to allow a thirteen team set up?
And if RFC of '72 merely reassumes its place as RFC of '72 as if insolvency had not happened and it had not therefore lost its league membership would the SFA be legally obliged to admit it into membership of the SFA?
One can see from this the absolute nonsense of the lie behind the creation of Sevco/TRFC!
And, astonishingly enough, even after dissolution, a dissolved entity can still be un-dissolved by the Court within two years of the dissolution!
I haven't the brains to be able properly to research and understand all the ins and outs of this, but have a look at, for example,
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/company-strike-off…
(and other relevant or associated web-sites) and I think that what I say about the theoretical position is accurate enough. (I may be wrong, entirely, of course)
Whether and how theory might apply in the practical case of a (sooner or later to be dissolved) football club would be one for the lawyers!
[one could have fun speculating whether the SFA and SPFL would then really take the expulsion action that ought properly to have been taken in respect of the football cheating, which the bigger tax-cheating tended to overshadow]
paddy malarkey 24th October 2020 at 13:27
While awaiting my first view of The Mighty Jags this season, I was wondering if it would be possible for someone else to buy the old club (RFC)) out of liquidation, secure agreement with creditors and relaunch in say WOSFL ?
Would the old out of liquidation be able to claim the history of the new and keep the Ramsden cup and Championship title win, or would this be resigned to the bin with the new or would two Rangers be operating in the league again with Albert Kinloc reclaiming his bet again.
I’m hearing 3 Standard Liege players have tested positive for Covid. Is there any mandatory rules re. isolating that could kick in given the proximity of players – tracked by GPS etc – or does it come down only to tests?
Precedents in other games where 3 players in a team have been Covid-positive – presuming as play raged, players tussled against eachother.
Given the scottish system resulted in Christie having to sit out after negative tests, I think Gerrard will be counting his stars this tie occurred away from home…
I won’t hold my breath.
bigboab1916 24th October 2020 at 20:50
".. with Albert Kinloch reclaiming his bet again."
""""""""""""""""""
That,bigboab1916, prompted me to have another wee look at Lord Bannatyne's judgment in that case,
My eye fell on this :
"The Agreed Background Surrounding the Placing of the Bet
[7] An association football club bearing the name “Rangers Football Club” was founded in 1872. Until 2000 Rangers Football Club was owned by the Rangers Football Club Ltd and thereafter by Rangers Football Club Plc. A team with the name “Rangers” has played in various different football leagues, football cup competitions and football championships.
[8] The company operating the football team which played in the SPL under the name “Rangers Football Club” in the 2011/2012 season was The Rangers Football Club Plc."
Now, far be it from me to contradict the learned Judge, but CH records appear to show that on re- registration as a plc on 31 March 1982, no new entity, no 'holding company' was created. ( Was his Lordship given duff information??) The company number was still 4276, the company number of the wee football club of the 4 young men on Glasgow Green when that wee club first was incorporated!
the text of the certificate is as follows:
"Certificate of Incorporation on Re-registration as a public company
No. 4276
issued on 31.3.1982
I hereby certify that the Rangers Football Club plc has been re-registered under the Companies Acts 1948 to 1981 as a public company, and that the company is limited.
Dated at Edinburgh the 31 March 1982."
Where did his lordship get the idea that there was more than one entity than the football club when he talks about 'the company operating the football team ?'
But this is all old hat.
We had QCs babbling about 'ethereal entities' , about the 'spirit', the 'essence', of a football club, the 'what it's all about', continuing in existence after it actually died!
The sheer ridiculous nonsense of it all!
We know for a fact that RFC of 1872 ceased to be entitled to participate in Scottish Football. They were not relegated.
I think that Lord Bannatyne's observations about there being a holding company distinct from the club incidentally helped the cause of those who propagate the untruth that Sevco/TRFC are RFC of 1872.
I say no more.
( I thought, incidentally, that I heard on one of my trips to the CoS that Lord Bannatyne was possibly going to retire early ? He must still be a couple of years or so short of the statutory retirement age?)
https://youtu.be/19j95pGNzI8?t=1181
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19j95pGNzI8&feature=emb_logo
Unlike an incorporated structure, an unincorporated association is not a separate legal entity from its members. … Therefore, an unincorporated association cannot enter into contracts in its own name, or own land, or employ people, or sue or be sued.
Unincorporated associations and ACNC registration | Australian …
http://www.acnc.gov.au › factsheet-unincorporated-associations..
Don’t be too harsh on Lord Bannatyne, for it was he who confirmed in a court of law the following:
[180] However, as submitted by Mr Sandison that is not what happened to Rangers. It was either unchallenged evidence or a matter of admission, that what happened to Rangers at the material time was this: the Rangers Football Club Plc sold inter alia the one share in the SPL to Sevco Scotland Limited. That sale required the approval of at least 8 of the members of the SPL. That application was refused. It was thus no longer eligible to play in the SPL. It thereafter applied to the SFL and was permitted to join the lowest league of the SFL (the five part agreement). The foregoing process cannot be described as being moved by anyone to a lower division, or being moved down or demoted. The dictionary definitions are not apt to cover what happened to Rangers. I am satisfied that what did not happen was that the SPL moved or demoted Rangers to a lower division. Rangers ended up in a lower division by the entry into a contract which allowed them to join the SFL in the third division.
If I had a pound for everytime I’ve heard the words “relegated” and “demoted” used by media in relation to the liquidation of 2012, usually in a pitying tone that must be so galling to unpaid creditors that happen to cross paths with such a dialogue, I would be a very rich man.
Homunculus 24th October 2020 at 13:43
As it stands just now, and has done since it came into existence, Rangers is not run as a viable business model. It is a very expensive hobby for wealthy people.
The simple reason for that is that sustainable growth is not acceptable to the people who run the business, or those who support it. Especially not when another club from the same city is on it's way to potentially winning it's tenth successive league title. To say nothing of several consecutive trebles.
This is little different to the previous club which occupied the same stadium, that club ran up tens of millions in debt leading to David Murray re-structuring his own business to absorb that debt. That was part of a failed share issue which if memory serves he underwrote to the tune of £50m.
What did they do after that on, carried on with the same madness, leading to massive tax avoidance, substantial other debts and the liquidation of the club. All in the belief that they were too much of an institution for the establishment to allow that.
At least they seem, on the face of it, to be paying for it themselves this time. Rather than stealing from other people to achieve what they are achieving.
Which is actually very little so far. Year on year losses and not a major trophy to show for it.
==============%%%================
I'd agree that it's not a sustainable business model but would point out that the intention is not to indefinitely continue down this path, for obvious reasons.
As I said earlier, the 5 years or so since regime change have broadly reflected the projections put forward back in 2015. A structured loss that would be paid for by willing individuals, within the rules. The aim being that within this timeframe we would get our act together both on and off the pitch. Thereafter we could be run in a sustainable manner.
The five years is now heading to six but I now see distinct signs of this coming to pass. For example, I'd point towards the management of players contracts together with significant added market value of several individuals. In other words, if next summer we sell Barisic, Kamara and Kent, we'd be looking at a relatively large transfer fund and black numbers in the accounts.
The other * in play at the moment is obviously Covid but that goes for everyone.
To get to break-even/profit
I visited my elderly father-in-law recently.
A dyed-in-the-wool Rangers fan, who spent far too much money on a 'seat for life' at Ibrox many years ago – which had his nameplate attached to it – and for which he still had to pay for his season ticket each year.
Still loves watching the games on TV now – but he does occasionally get confused and angry about losing his 'seat for life' at Ibrox in 2012.
Tactfully, I just don't say anything at all about 2012 and Rangers (In Liquidation).
A lifelong fan ripped off by his own club, Rangers FC.
And as far as I'm aware, the current Ibrox club – which claims to be the very same Rangers F.C. – has never contacted him about returning his seat.
It seems that the new club is just as dignified as the old club.
Apologies for repeating what I’ve said many times on here, but there are certain things that can’t go unchallenged.
“UEFA aren’t full of masons”, said Reasonable Chap in an earlier post (which now seems to have disappeared).
No, but I’m sure you’re well aware of instances of fraud and corruption involving senior officials of UEFA and FIFA, amongst many other football authorities across the globe in recent years, so referencing UEFA as some kind of paragon of virtue is an exercise in futility. It’s on par with giving credence to the Advertising Standards Agency’s take on the ‘same club’ debate, despite the ASA allowing manufacturer Barrs to claim that Irn Bru is made from girders!
Modern day football, particularly in the higher echelons, is entirely money-driven, and as we all know, money corrupts. That’s why FIFA awarded the hosting of a World Cup to Qatar, to quote one obvious example. Attempts by greedy elite clubs to grab even more money became apparent in recent weeks with the ‘Big Picture’ and European Super League proposals.
Although much lower down the food (and evolutionary) chain, the football authorities’ treatment of post liquidation Rangers amply demonstrates that money is king. If precisely the same set of circumstances had instead befallen Berwick Rangers or Brora Rangers, you can be assured there would be no five-way agreement concocted to treat a new successor club as if it was the old defunct one, because these clubs have no bearing on existing and future broadcasting contracts, which stipulate, or at least are determined by, a minimum number of Glasgow derby games.
Rangers* delusional fans, who stood back and let their club die while waiting for a benevolent billionaire saviour to appear over the horizon back in 2012, seem incapable of grasping the simple fact that the football authorities knew that fans wouldn’t support a new club in sufficient numbers, so they resorted to fabricating a fairy-tale that would keep the fans on board while safeguarding broadcasting contracts. That does not mean the current club playing out of Ibrox is the same as the one formed in the 19th century – it simply means they have one of the two largest supports in Scotland – a support that must be retained for the purposes of financial expediency, according to the blazers.
Rangers Football Club died an entirely self-inflicted death back in 2012 following at least a decade of industrial-scale cheating. No amount of history rewriting and airbrushing of facts can alter that.
Reasonable Chap claims that only a small and insignificant number of people hold the views the majority of SFM posters hold, yet he contradicts this by regularly feeling compelled to come on here to post his usual propaganda. Methinks sir doth protest too much, because, as he knows, the incontrovertible truth of Rangers’ death continues to gnaw away at him incessantly.
Absolutely, Highlander!
And WRT the continuing denial of the truth down Govan way, an applicable saying could be;
"The prisons are full of innocent people!"
(Although the Scottish prison system is still 'missing' David Murray.)
Charles Green came up with "… it is the holding company which is being liquidated, not the club" lie. The holding company was Wavetower. He did this after saying that liquidation meant that the club died, when he was desperately trying to avoid it.
The "regime change" came up with "structured losses", and nothing changed. They just came up with some propaganda to explain running the business at a loss in a desperate attempt to win the league, to keep the fans onside.
The bottom line is that the previous club was also running at a loss, which was hidden by Murrays restructuring, and stealing tax, for years. When Murray sold up Whyte ran the business at a loss, and ultimately the club was liquidated. The simple reason for both is that the owners and the support cannot accept that at least financially they are far from being the biggest or best.
This spending money the club doesn't have is no different to the club whish is being liquidated.
StevieBC 25th October 2020 at 10:17
'.A lifelong fan ripped off by his own club, Rangers FC.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
From the 'Sun'
"Rangers fans hit by £8m penalty
By KENNY ANGOVE, PAUL THORNTON and GORDON TAIT
16th February 2012, 2:27 am
Updated: 5th April 2016, 2:29 pm
RANGERS fans could lose out on almost £8MILLION after it was revealed 6,000 of
them splashed cash on a tickets scheme which is now under threat.
Football finance experts last night told the supporters — who each spent up to
£1,650 on debentures for seats at Ibrox — to “forget” trying to reclaim
their dosh.
And they warned every season ticket holder could even be forced to pay AGAIN
to see this season’s remaining games — because administrators may rip up
their existing briefs to generate more revenue.
Chris Brady, of London-based BPP Business School, said: “Football creditors —
the players, the staff and those keeping the club physically going — get
paid first.
“Anyone else is at the back of the queue.”
The dilemma for the debenture group — who collectively are owed one of the
largest sums behind chief creditor Craig Whyte and Her Majesty’s Revenue and
Customs — emerged last night.
It relates to a seating plan launched after previous owner Sir David Murray
built a third tier on Ibrox’s Main Stand in 1991.
He used a debenture issue to fund the project — letting supporters pay between
£1,000 and £1,650 for the right to buy a season ticket in that area for the
next 35 years.
Rangers’ financial meltdown means those fans are now entitled to have their
investment repaid.
The club’s most recent audited accounts — for the year ending June 30 2010 —
confirmed the liability and revealed there are 6,050 debenture holders, who
would be due a total of £7.736million.
Mr Brady, an authority on soccer finances, added: “These guys will find
themselves well down the list.
“Basically they can more or less forget their money.
“They will have no rights to the money because they won’t be the No 1
creditors and the day-to-day running of the club will come first.
“The good news is the seats will still exist and I suppose the new owner could
honour the seats — but that would be up to him."
[ Ha, ha! some hope of that, eh, what?]
https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/378676/rangers-fans-hit-by-8m-penalty
Who remembers the fun we had with the 'Charlotte Fakes' material?
I know, of course, that 'Mr Advocate Depute' referred to them the during the 'trial', but to this day I'm not entirely sure whether it's legally safe for anyone to copy them on, say, a football blog!
Being the most computer- illiterate of beings, I copied only one or two of the messages that passed by email between the actors in the purchase of RFC of 1872. These relate to the early stages in the purchase, but I think that even by the time they appeared on the blog I still was quite ignorant of what their significance may have been.
The entertainment value, however, was priceless!
I could see of course from the general tenor and tone of some emails that trying to stay safely 'legal' as opposed to 'honest' was uppermost in mind. [Par for the course in the business world, I suppose, and perhaps particularly so in what we all discovered was the mucky, mucky world of Scottish football]
But surely there would be an entertaining and informative piece/ book to be written if it were legally safe to do so?
What is it they say about emails? They cannot ever be totally deleted- they're out there in some 9-storey deep underground bank of servers in Kansas or Khazakstan, in the 'cloud'!
Homunculus 25th October 2020 at 11:23
'..He did this after saying that liquidation meant that the club died, when he was desperately trying to avoid it.'
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Oh, shades of one James Traynor, God bless the soul that he lost!
'James of the 'banner headlines' about the end of 140 years history! Big, bullying James of 'Your Call' on propagandist (shade of Peter Thomson!) BBC Radio Scotland!
To be followed followed (astounding miracle of conversion!) by a grovelling, a grovelling, canting [cAnting] James working in a PR function with and for a club born in 2012 which , in a deceitful collaboration with a rank rotten [I like that phrase] parcel of rogues in football governance, is deemed to be , now, 148 years old and which sells itself falsely as such to people happy to lie on its behalf!
Aye, Scottish football:
Like a fish, rotting from the head down, purveyed to us by a governance body even more rotten, supported by the suppurating rottenness of the SMSM.
Highlander 25th October 2020 at 10:52
“UEFA aren’t full of masons”, said Reasonable Chap in an earlier post (which now seems to have disappeared).
No, but I’m sure you’re well aware of instances of fraud and corruption involving senior officials of UEFA and FIFA, amongst many other football authorities across the globe in recent years, so referencing UEFA as some kind of paragon of virtue is an exercise in futility…..
….Reasonable Chap claims that only a small and insignificant number of people hold the views the majority of SFM posters hold, yet he contradicts this by regularly feeling compelled to come on here to post his usual propaganda. Methinks sir doth protest too much, because, as he knows, the incontrovertible truth of Rangers’ death continues to gnaw away at him incessantly.
========%%%============================
If you choose to ignore everything that any sporting governing body, national/local government, or large commercial organisation say because of previous cases of corruption in senior officials then you are pretty much advocating a route map of anarchy.
You talk of money and it’s influence. I’d ask you regards Rangers OC/NC, what would make it worth UEFA’s while to go down what you point towards as a corrupt route ?
What you have is a heavily biased group of football supporters whose own clubs don’t want to know about their complaint and a Res.12 that has washed up on the rocks of the legal system.
You can get most non Rangers fans in Scotland to sing about Sevco for 90 minutes but I’d repeat my claim that it is a small and insignificant number of people who are for want of a better phrase, hardline activists. I’d add that as time passes, the number is getting smaller. Just as the traffic on here isn’t as busy as it once was.
I post my views and opinions, not propaganda. Just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t make them James Traynor. I often broach the subjects that are very much within the stated purview of SFM but because many don’t like/share my views they are dismissed. For example, Peter Lawwell is THE most significant political figure within the Scottish game but many are trapped in something akin to the old OC/NC thread or see everything through, what easyjambo referred to as the TRFC prism.
When Les Gray was appointed to the main board of the SFA in what can be described as a further cross-polination (of friends) in governing bodies this summer*, it didn’t get a mention on here but instead there were posts on the suspicious amount of time an ex Sevco player (Andy Haliday) was getting on media gigs, the colour of Sevcos socks but mostly OC/NC with heavy emphasis on NC.
*https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scotsman/20200829/282677574677309
John Clark 25th October 2020 at 22:55
Who remembers the fun we had with the ‘Charlotte Fakes’ material?
…………….
Yes, i remember i had it all stored on a hard drive until that hard drive died on me. And if i remember correctly SFM kind of distanced itself from it at the time.(happy to be corrected)
Now that we know that king paid for the hacked emails and if i remember again correctly they eventually could get used in court.
But surely they would be an entertaining and informative piece to now be revisited if anyone has that material?
reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:19
What you have is a heavily biased group of football supporters whose own clubs don’t want to know about their complaint and a Res.12 that has washed up on the rocks of the legal system.
…………….
Even now i can speak to some celtic supporters who just have no clue about Res 12, Even some fans of an ibrox club i speak to have no clue. But both could tell you about the amount of time an ex Sevco player (Andy Haliday) was getting on media gigs,
……….
What does that tell us?
I always thought one of the most significant releases by Charlotte was the first or at least within the first batch.
IIRC the details correctly,…the Jack Irvine email to an alias of Sir Duped, about using his nexus search engine to help clean up CW's internet history.
Cluster…What does that tell us?
=======
Andy (a Hearts player) is a natural at various sectors of the Scottish Fitbaw Media.
Just as Simon Ferry is very good at what he does.
I had to laugh at the fan who was a caller (Frank) to Superscoreboard to have a go at Andy and IMO ended up revealing how things really are for many. the conversation was about the recent upcoming Celtic v Rangers game and Frank in a matter of fact way used the term, Old Firm. However about a second or two later Frank realised this was a huge mistake for a Celtic fan on live radio and frantically tried to take it back.
The serious point being is that there are many Franks. Whilst they know as Celtic fans, they shouldn’t utter certain names and should try to keep up with general policy…. deep down nothing has changed for them regards Rangers and the associated rivalry/hate.
A correspondent to the 'Scotsman' this morning, who describes himself as having devoted more than 30 years of his professional life to "carefully respecting the BBC's long established objectivity and independence" takes 'personal offence' at the call made by a politician for a campaign of non-payment of the BBC licence fee.
Remarking that many of his former colleagues still work for the Corporation, the correspondent takes issue with the politician's assertion that 'their [the BBC's] gold standard among broadcasters has been tarnished' by coverage of the Independence referendum and subsequently 'the boosting of Brexit'.
The correspondent ( Mr Kit Fraser no less, whose dulcet tones I remember well) clearly has not heard the monstrous nonsense of a lie that has been spouted by BBC Radio Scotland in relation to the liquidation of one football club and the astonishing 140 years of sporting success achieved by a club created in 2012!!
That absolutely unnecessary lie (in a simple sports matter, for heaven's sake!) tarnished for ever the 'gold standard 'of objective reporting, because it required a deliberate dictat from senior management, under threat of punishment if disobeyed by any of its reporting staff.
I would suggest to Mr Fraser that his respect for the 'Corporation' of the present day is misplaced and unmerited.
reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:19
My fundamental point was that various sets of football authorities treated one insolvent club entirely differently from how they would have treated all other clubs, with the possible exception of Celtic, because, in their view, the only financially viable model that works in Scottish football involves the broadcasting of several Celtic/Rangers matches per season, alongside other commercial contracts. That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club
Those football authorities concocted a five way agreement in which they agreed to treat Charles Green’s new club as if it was the old defunct club. That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club.
You are correct in saying that other clubs have no appetite for delving into Res 12 and other crimes committed by Rangers in the past, but those clubs’ collusion and subsequent silence was the trade-off for the financial security of still having a form of Rangers in the league setup. That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club.
A few days ago, you mentioned the likelihood of several clubs going out of business as a result of the financial consequences of Covid 19. How peculiar that you can envisage football clubs going out of business as a result of a pandemic, but you can’t accept that a specific football club which went into liquidation owing multi-millions of pounds didn’t go out of business – only its operating company did, allegedly.
As time goes by, and the details of 2012 become blurred…
I'd hazard a guess that if – in say 10 years time – you were to ask ANY non-Ibrox supporter across Scotland;
"What happened to Rangers in 2012?"
then, the standard answer would be similar in substance to;
"Rangers cheated and then died, [was liquidated]."
That basic memory will never fade amongst Scottish football supporters, IMO, and it never should.
And that's why The Rangers – pretending to be Rangers FC – will never be respected as a club, but a source of never-ending derision.
I suppose that is justice, of sorts?
Highlander
You seemed to dismiss my reference to the UEFA stance on Rangers, citing that there had previously been corruption of senior figures within said organisation, that led to financial gain.
What was in it for UEFA to further risk their reputation by knowingly going down an ‘unsafe path’ ?
Given correspondence received, do you think it reasonable to assume they got their legals to make sure of their ground prior to their decision ?
reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 14:27
“Highlander
You seemed to dismiss my reference……”
Considering you have side-stepped, ignored and studiously avoided every pertinent point I’ve made, can I suggest you use any decent online dictionary to look up the definition of ‘irony’?
The next bit won’t come as a surprise to you and you might even find a pattern emerging.
That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club.
Highlander 26th October 2020 at 15:07
'..That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club.'
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And, of course, Highlander, not actually being the club of 140 years' sporting history, suggests that the RIFC plc IPO might indeed have been deliberately misleading in implying that it was the holding company of the famous/notorious RFC of 1872!
With that possibility in their minds, it's easy to see why in fear they have to deny that RFC of 1872 lost its membership of the then SPL and in consequence lost its entitlement to membership of the SFA and ceased to be permitted to participate in Scottish professional football.
If that was ever admitted, there would have to be serious consequences for a whole lot of people.
They had to enter lie-lie land with the willing co-operation of cheats in Football governance, and the support of the SMSM, particularly and most significantly, the support of scoundrels on Pacific Quay!
reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:19
For example, Peter Lawwell is THE most significant political figure within the Scottish game
Bit of a row back that for the man in your head . Not too long ago ,you had him running Scottish football with a heavy hand , compelling club owners , match officials and the authorities to accept his diktats in silence . His club lose a couple of games , his rivals are odds on to win this year's title , and now his fickle supporters have relegated or demoted him from a position of preeminence to being a mere cog in the machine . I don't recall anybody posting here ever doubting his influence on football up here , but you'd need to be a bit of a fan boy to give credence to the notion of him unilaterally running the game . On a brighter note , The Mighty Jags won their first league game this year on Saturday . Thank you . Peter .
Celtics trading annual results advised to the stock exchange
Financial Highlights
· Group revenue decreased by 15.8% to £70.2m (2019: £83.4m)
· Operating expenses including labour decreased by 7.3% to £80.5m (2019: £86.9m)
· Gain on sale of player registrations of £24.2m (2019: £17.7m)
· Acquisition of player registrations of £20.7m (2019: £6.2m
· Profit before taxation of £0.1m (2019: £11.3m)
· Year-end cash net of bank borrowings of £18.2m (2019: £28.6m)
It’s not an unexpected set of accounts with revenue down, cash in the back down and that despite £24m incoming from transfers.
The previous post should read "cash in the bank down"
https://www.londonstockexchange.com/news-article/CCP/results-for-the-year-ended-30-june-2020/14732713
Current liabilities 2020 2019
Trade and other payables 20,744 13,957
Lease liabilities 604 –
Borrowings 1,364 1,364
Provisions 5,942 3,479
Deferred income 21,275 25,614
Totals 49,929 44,414
Looking at the above figures I was trying to work out the ongoing liabilities for deferred wages. I don’t know if it will be included in the £6.8m increase in Trade and Other Payables, or in the £2.5m increase in Provisions.
The drop in deferred income suggests a fall of £4.2m in Season Ticket revenue.
The fall in Celtic’s revenue is across all areas.
Football Operations down £7.5m
Merchandising down £3m
Multimedia and other Commercial activities down £2.7m
This current season could be even more challenging with the increased liabilities and reduced income. The club has also increased its revolving credit facility from £2m to £13m (still unused) just in case.
easyjambo
Re Celtic fall in revenue and profit due to Covid 19
Probably an unfair question, but could you venture an opinion (for the less financially astute members of our community e.g. me!) as to what the comparable returns for TRFC might look like – assuming, in a break from their 8-year old tradition (?), that these be ‘unpockled’?
For example, would they reflect what ‘Big Mike’ is owed?
Shirley they wouldn’t be spending ‘beyond their means’?
bect67 26th October 2020 at 20:05
Probably an unfair question, but could you venture an opinion (for the less financially astute members of our community e.g. me!) as to what the comparable returns for TRFC might look like – assuming, in a break from their 8-year old tradition (?) that these be ‘unpockled’?
==============================
You are correct. It is an unfair question
, but we should get sight of the accounts in the next month or so.
We know they had a forecast £10m shortfall in last year’s accounts. That was almost certainly reduced by their unbudgeted extra EL revenue. We also know that DK provided a £5m loan facility. We can also state with some certainty that Park, Letham and Taylor plus Gibson provided additional funding which has since been converted to equity in the recent share issue.
They will show a loss, albeit that it will have been covered by the loans/share issue. How much is still outstanding is anyone’s guess.
They have operated with year on year losses, but despite the doom mongers forecasts they have found a way to remain afloat and grow their business, improving the strength of their squad and on-field performances year on year.
They may forecast further shortfalls for this current year, perhaps with yet another share issue, but there is nothing to suggest that their business plan is failing. Indeed, they appear to be getting stronger on and off the park. Their new merchandising deal appears to be working and bringing in additional revenue (I don’t know if SD walked away, with or without cash, or declined to make a matching offer). They have also sold out their 46,500 ST allocation, meaning that their match day revenue will be as high as it can be in the circumstances.
Covid restrictions will still impact them, but I do think that they are in as good a shape as most other Premiership clubs to come out the other side relatively unscathed.
Thanks EJ – my education continues apace!!
reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:52
……………
I stopped listening to Superscoreboard years ago when DJ said lets wait and see what Ally spends the £10 mill on. After Green announced Ally would get £10 mill to spend in the lower leagues, that was enough delusion for me.
…
Frank in a matter of fact way used the term, Old Firm. However about a second or two later Frank realised this was a huge mistake for a Celtic fan on live radio and frantically tried to take it back.
….
Reminds me of a child using a swear word that they have just grown accustomed to hearing. If it is going to get rammed down youth throat as often as possible of course you are going to repeat it now and again.
………
The serious point being is that there are many Whilst they know they have to utter certain names and try to keep the old firm band wagon going as a general policy…. deep down they know .But if they want to keep a job they have to stick to the prefered script.
Cluster One 26th October 2020 at 21:46
reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:52
……………
I stopped listening to Superscoreboard years ago when DJ said lets wait and see what Ally spends the £10 mill on. After Green announced Ally would get £10 mill to spend in the lower leagues, that was enough delusion for me.
…
Frank in a matter of fact way used the term, Old Firm. However about a second or two later Frank realised this was a huge mistake for a Celtic fan on live radio and frantically tried to take it back.
….
Reminds me of a child using a swear word that they have just grown accustomed to hearing. If it is going to get rammed down youth throat as often as possible of course you are going to repeat it now and again.
………
The serious point being is that there are many Whilst they know they have to utter certain names and try to keep the old firm band wagon going as a general policy…. deep down they know .But if they want to keep a job they have to stick to the prefered script.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For a time I took on the onerous task of listening to Superscrotesboard on behalf of youse all and reporting back the Shugisms and Big Del's amateur PR mutterings.
I lapsed for a time during Lockdown but tonight I listened in and as you say Cluster the policy of slipping in a TRFC reference as part of the general policy into the farrago of assininity that passes for a show broke fresh ground tonight when it was extended to the Quiz. I say quiz but really I mean a test of knowledge for IMBECILES (apologies to any imbeciles on here who just read that last sentence).
One of the questions was:
"Which club has won the League Cup the most times?
It was such an easy one even I got it right. There can only be one answer thought I, it's Celtic. Imagine my surprise when Quizmaster Gordon somebody or other said it was Rangers with 27 wins.
I exclaimed loudly at the radio "That can't be right they've never won anything except the Petrocrap Cup". Alex Rae got the question right.
I should also report on the Rangers fan from Wishaw who called in 6 months late to declare that last season should have been declared "Null and Void". To be fair to Compere/Quizmaster Gordon he did say "goodness me I know the clocks went back at the weekend but I didn't think they went back all the way to March".
That was not enough to deter the Lanarkshire Bluesman who stated that were the League to end early this year and Rangers were top "they" would not call it and give them the title. Paranoia is alive and well in the Covid Age.
More Later I'm sure
I was looking at the Celtic financials earlier and they seem to confirm my earlier thoughts on this (which I was shot down for in the days of the Thumbs Up/Down on here).
As a reminder, I said that because of such large overheads and dependence on Euro “success” an interuption of income and failure in Europe could create a financial issue. Despite cash reserves of some £28m.
Roll it forward 7 months and the issue is crystalising. Income at Champions League level has gone and Europa League progression looks uncertain. Hospitality, retail sales etc are all down. Player sale income in the period is almost equalled by purchases. The club has increased its debt facility to fill a revenue gap.
Post the accounts year end significant amounts have been spent on new talent in an attempt to secure 10 in a row.
Don’t get me wrong Sevco are no more financially secure than Celtic. In fact they must be struggling too. I will expand more on that later.
So, as tradition demands I have dealt with the two most important clubs in Scotch football first. I just cross my fingers and hope all of the rest survive as best they can.
“Highlander
You seemed to dismiss my reference……”
Considering you have side-stepped, ignored and studiously avoided every pertinent point I’ve made, can I suggest you use any decent online dictionary to look up the definition of ‘irony’?
The next bit won’t come as a surprise to you and you might even find a pattern emerging.
That does not make the current club playing out of Ibrox the same club as the original one formed in 1872, nor does it mean that the new club won, or is otherwise entitled to, the titles and trophies earned by the old, defunct club.
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There is a debate to be had regarding some of your points but it’s all pretty much been done before on various occasions. The legal, the moral, the economic imperative and then the whole mix thrown into a bowl.
However, your takeaway summing-up/pattern is quite simply mistaken. You and others obviously have every right to to hold your opinion on the matter and I wouldn’t expect anything else from rival football supporters but the official line is that you are wrong.
paddy malarkey 26th October 2020 at 16:31
reasonablechap 26th October 2020 at 09:19
For example, Peter Lawwell is THE most significant political figure within the Scottish game
=======
Bit of a row back that for the man in your head . Not too long ago ,you had him running Scottish football with a heavy hand , compelling club owners , match officials and the authorities to accept his diktats in silence . His club lose a couple of games , his rivals are odds on to win this year's title , and now his fickle supporters have relegated or demoted him from a position of preeminence to being a mere cog in the machine . I don't recall anybody posting here ever doubting his influence on football up here , but you'd need to be a bit of a fan boy to give credence to the notion of him unilaterally running the game .
=========%%%=========
You exaggerate what I said about Peter.
My stock line was that he is the most powerful and influential individual in the Scottish game and that he brings that influence to bear accordingly. That includes having a disproportionate amount of friends in the governing bodies. Some might call it unfair or even a degree of corruption.
He doesn't run the game but he has considerable influence within it, where the PLC he represents have an interest.
Whilst on the broad subject…..
I note that Dundee won their league match on Saturday with a winning goal being scored by the centre forward who is on loan from Celtic. Looks like Mr. Nelms has got himself a useful player.
I think the Celtic financials show the increasing importance of player trading/mgmt. of contracts within certain business models. They have done very well out of it in recent years.
This, IMO is where Rangers have to show considerable improvment so as to be able to regularly get to break-even or better. At this moment in time, the signs are that it is improving considerably.
That said, I think the Covid related threat looms large for all. I can’t see anything but general economic carnage coming down the line. Football won’t be high up on government priorities.
reasonablechap 27th October 2020 at 06:14
"You and others obviously have every right to to hold your opinion on the matter"
______________________________________________
It would be less than courteous and magnanimous of me not to acknowledge that you have every right to hold your erroneous, warped and agenda-driven opinion on the matter.
The 'official line' of any 'official body' -from a Nazi Government down to 'sports governance' bodies- is as likely as not to based on untruth.
It is an absolute untruth that TRFC is Rangers of 1872. TRFC is currently playing in the SPFL: Rangers of 1872 (aka RFC 2012) is in Liquidation.
TRFC was founded in 2012. RFC of 1872 ( aka RFC 2012) was founded by honourable, truthful young men in 1872.
'Officialdom' -in the shape of the SFA, ASA, the BBC, and the SMSM, and 'unofficialdom' in the shape of the persons enjoying a pint in Louden's Tavern, may huff and puff and curse and swear to the contrary, but truth and reality are as much against them as the wind is when one pees into it.
Highlander 27th October 2020 at 09:13
reasonablechap 27th October 2020 at 06:14
"You and others obviously have every right to to hold your opinion on the matter"
______________________________________________
It would be less than courteous and magnanimous of me not to acknowledge that you have every right to hold your erroneous, warped and agenda-driven opinion on the matter.
========%%%==========
But I was referring to the official record including UEFA, not opinion.
The opinion of a football fan or collective often depends on the team they follow or dislike.
Another superb example of ‘cut and paste’ journalism is given today by Mark Atkinson of ‘the Scotsman” under the headline “Celtic ‘grappling with challenges’ of Covid as revenue plummets”
His piece is very largely made up of nine complete paragraphs lifted straight from Bankier’s ‘annual report’ [which eJ very helpfully posted about yesterday, ahead of the hunt] , and eleven paras of straight quotation from Dalglish!
Of the remaining 10 paras, three are not direct quotes, but are paraphrases of the paras in the ‘report’
The other paras are just statements of already known facts, eg, ‘that Celtic fell six points behind’ and ‘ Lennon has found himself the subject of criticism…’
About the only thing that is Atkinson’s own ‘work’ (apart from reading and typing) is his observation that ‘the current champions had to rely on the sale of Kieran Tierney as a major source of income” And any primary school pupil could have worked that out!
Geez, I wish I had thought of doing that kind of ‘journalism’ shortly after 5 pm yesterday when I had read eJ’s posts!
Might have got an easy few quid if I had emailed it in to ‘The Scotsman’.
How singularly ill-served we are, even by a newspaper that does not like to be called a ‘tabloid’, but describes itself as ‘compact’!
I’ll try and get in first when the Chairman of the holding company of TRFC publishes his annual report!
Bogs Dollox 27th October 2020 at 00:12
—————————————————————-
One of the questions was:
"Which club has won the League Cup the most times?
It was such an easy one even I got it right. There can only be one answer thought I, it's Celtic. Imagine my surprise when Quizmaster Gordon somebody or other said it was Rangers with 27 wins.
I exclaimed loudly at the radio "That can't be right they've never won anything except the Petrocrap Cup". Alex Rae got the question right.
—————————————————————————-
But surely that is the correct answer? Just not the current version of the team playing out of Govan?
Fair's fair an aw that!
reasonablechap 27th October 2020 at 10:23
"But I was referring to the official record including UEFA, not opinion."
_________________________________________
…..and I was referring to the fact that Rangers Football Club, a business which failed, presently comprises of the contents of a small and no doubt tattered manilla folder in the filing cabinet of liquidator BDO, awaiting the final dispersal of assets followed by the dissolution of that business.
Feel free to hold a contrary view, although even with linguistic gymnastics you might struggle to argue that Rangers Football Club was not a business in exactly the same way that Third Lanark, Clydebank, Airdrieonians and Gretna FC were. Feel free to come onto this site to tell us how insignificant we are in number and opinion – while betraying that insignificance with your constant need to 'correct' us with your flat-earth views.
You, your fellow adherents and even UEFA can treat the current 'Rangers' however you and they see fit by indulging in semantics and sleight of hand, but it doesn't alter one iota the incontrovertible fact that legally, the current club playing out of Ibrox is not the same as the club founded in the 19th century and which died the self-inflicted death of liquidation in 2012 following a decade or more of industrial-scale cheating.
The original club died precisely the same death that you recently predicted would befall several clubs as a result of the financial ramifications of Covid 19. So having preached for the past eight years that clubs are immortal, metaphysical entities, and that only their operating companies can suffer insolvency events, you're now backtracking and rewriting history again! I, for one, don't believe a word of your crayon scribblings.
reasonablechap
SPFL, P………….Has to be the main man within it, Peter !
Looks like old Karla (Moscow Central) couldnae lace Peter’s boots. The Celtic heid honcho must have been inserting double agents into the masonic lodges.
So now Edouard has tested positive. It will be interesting to see how Celtic and the SPFL handle that one.
==========%%%===========
Ask Peter !
After Peter spoke to his friends at the SPFL and somehow, by a slice of incredible luck (effectively a 4/1 shot,..see below*), Celtic managed to land the date they wanted for the first Old Firm match, I’m sure there was a smile, a nod and a wink shared amongst friends on the 6th floor at Hampden.
Oh, Peter….when you are next leading the way regards working with the authorities in establishing ‘the roolz’,….pay attention, so you as you fully understand them.
I see what you mean wrt me exaggerating your position – don't know what led me to do that . And , as for what was stated by the footballing authorities regarding the demise of RFC , FIFA said
https://web.archive.org/web/20160305151928/http://www.fifa.com/world-match-centre/news/newsid/197/701/7/index.html
Whilst we are wrestling with covi-19 protocols , bubbles and testing regimes , shirley now would be the time to introduce testing for performance enhancing drugs in Scottish football . I'm pretty sure the costs would be similar , but am happy to be corrected .
Paddy M
shirley now would be the time to introduce testing for performance enhancing drugs in Scottish football
———————-
I’d be happier if they had sorted out the performance-enhancing side-letters first?
paddy malarkey
Ahv telt ye afore Paddy – don’t feed him!
In terms of reasoning (ironic intit?) and open mindedness he’s a goner – ‘goosed’. Remember but – it’s no his fault (Argumentative Personality Disorder and associated strains).
Jist write yir ain stuff, and leave it at that, eh?
It’s amazing how much more enjoyable this blog is when one skips past reasonable chaps posts.
I commend this practice to the forum.
There I was, just getting ready to post some comments defending Celtic and Neil Lennon (particularly wrt to missing key players this season), when out he comes with his own ‘views’.
Check it out on Celts Are Here as it may not make the ‘egregious’ SMSM!
Dom 16
I ‘doff my cap’ to you!!
bect67
He/she is alright really, just needs guidance. I don't have a problem with CEO's pushing for what's best for their clubs and realise this impacts on others, but to me it's the thinking that when RFC were a big club, they acted in a certain way and can't see that things can be done differently. And the assumption that we share the same level of paranoia. If your club had been liquidated and you felt guilt because you hadn't done your utmost to prevent it, you may also be looking for a Svengali to blame it all on. So why not blame Peter Lawwell – distracts from your own culpability.
A general observation.
We all witnessed in 2012 that in Scottish, senior football business trumps sport.
Money wins out over sporting integrity.
The punters/customers weren’t happy, but the SFA, SPFL – and ALL the 42 clubs – decided that for us anyway.
Fast forward 8 years and we have a prolonged period of uncertainty and financial meltdown across the game.
The hypothetical question is: if the prevailing opinion had actually been that sport trumps business and money – always – then would the Scottish game, as a whole, be in a better position today to deal with, and survive, a pandemic?
I honestly don’t know.
But, what I do know is that it’s all about self-interest for clubs – especially SPL clubs.
That position was embarrassingly reinforced over the summer WRT calling the league.
Any consideration of taking ethical / morally correct actions for the benefit of the game as a whole would be laughed right out of SPL Boardrooms, IMO. [Res.12 anyone?]
The clubs chose in 2012 and they reap what they sowed now.
Any industry, at any time can suffer a ‘shakeout’ event, where there is a period of many unprepared businesses hitting the wall, some others merge to survive etc.
The events of 2012 still casts a shadow over the future of the game: business doesn’t do sentimentality, so for those clubs which don’t survive – it’s just business.
Big Pink
We missed out on them too.!
Highlander 27th October 2020 at 12:08
reasonablechap 27th October 2020 at 10:23
"But I was referring to the official record including UEFA, not opinion."
_________________________________________
…..and I was referring to the fact that Rangers Football Club, a business which failed, presently comprises of the contents of a small and no doubt tattered manilla folder in the filing cabinet of liquidator BDO, awaiting the final dispersal of assets followed by the dissolution of that business.
======%%%======
I go by what you actually type. Go back and read your post, you referred to my opinion.
I referred to the official records, reallity trumps what a rival group of supporters think or want something to be.
I get the moral argument but the legal interpretation that is adopted by the authorities is in the end, the black and white of it. Those who strongly disagree will very much be on the periphery and even the clubs they support are and will continue to throw a deefie in their general direction.
Maybe we can start up groups who don't accept football results because they thought the officials were homers or a mistaken offside decision that won a League Cup Final……Naw, what is official is official or the game is the preverbial bogey.
Going further, if say a Celtic supporter feels strongly on the subject, how can he continue to justify financially contributing to the PLC that doesn't only not share that view, but actually patronises it.
Paddy
The examples you posted show Peter doing exactly what I stated regards scale of influence and ‘friends’.
The fixture list (1st OF) being a good example. How things turned out only goes to show not even Peter can get everthing right.
Whilst on the man himself, I note that Neil Lennon said that Peter and the board fully support the job he is doing. I can only hope that is true #NLmustSTAY
paddy malarkey 27th October 2020 at 17:27
He/she is alright really, just needs guidance. I don’t have a problem with CEO’s pushing for what’s best for their clubs and realise this impacts on others, but to me it’s the thinking that when RFC were a big club, they acted in a certain way and can’t see that things can be done differently. And the assumption that we share the same level of paranoia. If your club had been liquidated and you felt guilt because you hadn’t done your utmost to prevent it, you may also be looking for a Svengali to blame it all on. So why not blame Peter Lawwell – distracts from your own culpability.
====%%%===
Peter and the PLC are on the black and white reality side of the the subject and don’t agree with the general stance on SFM.
I’m just a fan posting on a fans forum, it’s Peter and the PLC who are your real meaningful enemy…. I’m curious as to why many want to defend him.
I am not aware of supporters of other teams congratulating their rivals on achievements/trophy victories in any case, so frankly whether dunfermline, hearts, aberdeen fans recognise Sevco as rangers or vice versa, title no 1 or title no 55 is irrelevant.
Focus should not be lost on the OFFICIAL status of what occurred in 2012 when Sevco was born.
That is what matters. Football is a game, games are based on rules, rules are determined by governing bodies. THEY matter here.
UEFA, the SFA, the SPFL. They should NEVER be allowed off the hook.
Not an inch should be given in that battle if fairness and integrity within our game are to mean anything.
Brian
Focus on 2012 continues unabated on SFM. That is up to the posters and moderation on here. I’m not trying to stop them, I’d be onto plumbs.
Generally, IMO, there is relatively little interest or intense scrutiny of what the governing bodies get up to in more recent times on here, unless it involves Rangers. Posters seem to think that focus on the most influential and powerful individual currently in the Scottish game is somehow some deflectionary tactic. Deflecting from 2012 maybe but what about today ? Easyjambo got it spot-on with his observation regards the viewing of everything through the “TRFC prism”.
Regards Rangers, what I think will happen is that you’ll have a general, overarching and increasingly accepted reality with increasingly smaller protest groups making their points without much attention being paid to them. What may be louder are fotball chants/songs at games.
I’d imagine that if/when Rangers win their next trophy, there will be groups of mostly Celtic supporters making it their job to publicly bring up their version of 2012 as loudly as they can. Overtime and if more trophies were to follow, these efforts would dissapate.
You talk of fairness and integrity within our game, that is long gone. Neoliberal economics was IMO, the root factor.
Homunculus 25th October 2020 at 11:23
Charles Green came up with “… it is the holding company which is being liquidated, not the club” lie. The holding company was Wavetower. He did this after saying that liquidation meant that the club died, when he was desperately trying to avoid it.
…………….
He also did this when only 250 season tickets were sold and was faced with a nightmare of bankruptcy. Green standing in line handing out cups of tea is all that an ibrox fan base should have needed to see to realise it was all just a con. But so desperate not to be accused of standing by and letting there club die it was, two lunps of sugar for me charles and no milk.Charles was later found laughing all the way to France.
reasonablechap 28th October 2020 at 08:10
______________________________________
It's more than a little ironic that you're supposedly correcting me on a matter which you have simply misunderstood, whether deliberately or otherwise.
If you read through my posts you will see a common thread, which is that, for the purposes of financial expediency such as broadcasting and other commercial contracts, the club currently playing out of Ibrox is BEING TREATED AS IF it was the original defunct club by the football authorities, such as UEFA. I really don't know how to make the facts any clearer than that.
You've referenced UEFA in an attempt to provide some kind of legitimacy to the sleight of hand whilst being well aware that UEFA's head of club licencing, Andrea Traverso, made abundantly clear that post-liquidation Rangers is a new club, not just because he mentioned a new club/company, but because he specified unambiguously in the same statement that the club went into administration, not any fictional operating or holding company.
“As a consequence of decisions taken in 2012 as well as the administration of the club the events/measures that followed (including the new club/company being ineligible to apply for a licence to participate in UEFA competitions for three seasons), there is no need for UEFA to investigate this matter any further since the club was not granted a licence to participate in the 2012/13 UEFA club competitions, the new club/company entered the fourth tier of Scottish Football and it was not able to play in UEFA competitions for the next three years in any event.
Many thanks for taking note of the above position of UEFA.”
UEFA's subsequent stance of TREATING A NEW CLUB AS IF IT WAS A DEFUNCT ONE mirrors that of the Scottish football authorities. The SFA's website reflects the financial and commercial need to pretend Rangers FC survived liquidation, yet nobody in authority at the governing body has ever confirmed they did.
The fact is that you and I hold more similar views of 'the Rangers saga' than might appear obvious, as was evident by your acknowledgement that you get the moral argument. Where we part company is when you say that all that matters to you is what you creatively describe as "the legal interpretation adopted by the authorities". That's certainly not the phrase that would first spring to my mind when referring to a scam, pretence, con, fraud, swindle, hoax, racket, lie or deception.
That divergence in moral compasses continues with your inability to admit that everybody outside your support (and those with vested interests) knows full well what happened back in 2012. As I said earlier, your eagerness to 'convert' opinion belies your claim that our view of your defunct club amounts to insignificance. I don't intend to respond any further because, as other posters have rightly pointed out, doing so will just prolong your stay here.
Highlander
Well done – you’ll feel the better for it!
I no longer comment on the specifics of RC posts (I’m sure he loves being referred to in that manner!), but must admit I find them intriguing from a psychological perspective – so I still read them – as it helps me understand mental health. This is useful in my daily work, and would make a good case study methinks.
Not exactly the primary purpose of this blog, but there ye go! Not responding to his comments is particularly good for my soul and self-discipline.
Accordingly, I hope he ( or possibly she, as paddy points out) continues to post.
Hmm…
We saw recently that demolition work had started next to Ibrox, with new facilities being built in time for the ever more frequently quoted "150 years anniversary celebrations".
I'm sure that during 2022 around Ibrox there will be loud proclamations about "150", and the SMSM will undoubtedly be full of 'souvenir pullouts' etc.
It could be a bit embarrassing though if non-TRFC fans are also loudly, STILL, harping on about that 'little bit of bother' at Ibrox, way, way back in history: 10 years ago…
I suppose those at Ibrox would want to now ramp up counter PR to try and browbeat those 'nonbelievers' into silence, if not submission…in time for 2022?
If you can't beat them with facts or reasoned argument, then revert to ad hominem attacks.
It's only sad, retired, deluded, stuck in the past, jealous, bigoted, Rangers haters, etc. who think that Rangers died in 2012.
What every sane person witnessed in 2012 was a club meeting its eventual – and inevitable – fate for massive cheating over many years. The club cheated ALL other clubs and supporters, HMRC / taxpayers, 200+ creditors, etc.
The club lied routinely to all and sundry, not least to the SFA and SPL regarding undeclared, player payments via EBT's.
That being said, I will agree that there has indeed been some continuation at Ibrox.
The current Ibrox club's behaviour is consistent with its predecessor club;
Lies then.
Lies now.
Lies forever!
StevieBC 28th October 2020 at 11:41
'…The club lied routinely to all and sundry, not least to the SFA and SPL regarding undeclared, player payments via EBT's.
That being said, I will agree that there has indeed been some continuation at Ibrox.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
And the liars in the SFA and the then SPL/SFL and the now SPFL continue to lie!
They are morally incapable, because stubbornly unwilling, of getting themselves out of the mire of deceit and the destruction of their own personal integrity as well as the Integrity of the sport.
There is a beautiful irony in the fact that their carefully crafted and cynically calculated greed-led deceit may be met by blind retribution in the shape of a wee bug that their lies have no defence against, as in some kind of Greek tragedy! ( the old Greek playwrights were on to something on that theme!)
Few people mourn the death of master liars Goebbels or Adolph.
I for one will not mourn the death of those clubs principally involved in the corrupt acceptance of the 'Big Lie'.
I will call it 'condign punishment', or more simply, 'hell mend them' for participating in such an insulting fraud!!
reasonablechap
28th October 2020 at 08:40
Peter and the PLC are on the black and white reality side of the the subject and don’t agree with the general stance on SFM.
What exactly is the black and white reality side of the subject to which you refer ? I haven't a clue what that means. It appears, though, that you've been in contact with the great man to solicit his and the PLC's views on the stance taken by SFM ( I must have missed the email asking my view ). As for defending him, he's nothing to me, but when your continually try to foist your fevered paranoia on the blog , you're bound to meet resistence . Can we leave it at some people liking him, some not, and most not caring ?
reasonablechap
Can I ask why you think I would perceive anybody, let alone Peter Lawwell , as an enemy ? To me, he's a guy doing his job. It may be that he does it well enough raise your bile , but at worst he's just another player in a corrupt game .
Can I just say as a Celtic supporter I really hope both Peter Lawwell and Neil Lennon stay in post.
I believe Peter Lawwell does a really good job running the business side of the club and if I remember correctly we have won every domestic trophy since Neil Lennon's return to the manager's role.
They are both doing the best job they can for their employer, and are both successful at what they do. In fact I think it's difficult to see how they could have done better under the circumstances.
Neil Lennon has done a tremendous job at Celtic. A glance at wikipedia tells me that he has a win percentage during his 2nd spell of 77% – which is incredible really. Brendan Rodgers returned a 70% figure.
The unfortunate reality of social media is that where as once tempers and frustrations were aired to family and friends at home or in the pub, disappearing into the ether moments after being uttered, now things couldn’t be more different. A moment’s anger is expressed in a social media post that doesn’t just last for days/weeks/years, but sparks similar responses like the ignition of a fuse.
Mixed with the imminent demise of old media, who seize on any opportunity to stir publicity and controversy through click bait, and it is a poisonous cocktail.
For all that, Neil’s fate rests on that old chestnut, results. Fixtures away from home to Lille, Aberdeen (albeit hampden), Hibs, Motherwell, Prague, Milan. It’s a horrendous run of difficult fixtures but, for that reason, could prove the making of a man not unaccustomed to answering critics.
Step forward John Bruce (DR Hotline)
"Celtic aren't going for 10. They are trying t stop 55" Whit!?
Did I miss him on Mastermind – chosen topic Spout****?
The Govan outfit he refers to are Sevco (later TRFC) – who are eight and a bit years old, and have never won a major Scottish trophy.
In my inbox yesterday was an email from the ICIJ (International Consortium of Investigative Journalists)
Among other interesting stuff there is this :
"FRESH UK INQUIRY
Prompted by the FinCEN Files, a powerful U.K. parliamentary committee has launched a new anti-money laundering inquiry tasked specifically with looking into the impact of our investigation, as well as examining Britain’s anti-money-laundering systems, corporate liability for economic crime, and the work of Companies House, the U.K.’s much-abused register of companies."
I note the special reference to Companies House as ' the much-abused register of companies' ( that is, abused by cheating lying directors/companies/plcs , rather than 'abused' by the likes of me for its 'Companies House does not verify the accuracy of the information filed') [I know that that's not the fault of the civil servants , but of government, at which I direct my abuse!]
What use is it to be given information that has not in any way been checked for truth?
Speaking personally, if it had not been for the 'Rangers' saga , I would have carried on in innocent belief that by and large the world of commerce and business, a world in which businessmen are pleased to be able to describe their occupation as 'Company director' because it carries some kind of social cachet, was inherently honest, and that 'directors' as dodgy as small-fry spivs like 'Del boys and 'Boycies' were soon rooted out and exposed!
I was very naive before 2012.
The really annoying thing is that even when such types are exposed, the FCA seems to be very very reluctant to get them 'criminalised'.
I have no great hopes that 'a powerful U.K. parliamentary committee' will in the end effect any significant extra powers being given to CH.
StevieBC 28th October 2020 at 11:41
Hmm…
We saw recently that demolition work had started next to Ibrox, with new facilities being built in time for the ever more frequently quoted “150 years anniversary celebrations”.
I’m sure that during 2022 around Ibrox there will be loud proclamations about “150”, and the SMSM will undoubtedly be full of ‘souvenir pullouts’ etc.
……………
I don’t know how an 8 year old club can celebrate 150 years of history, but even so, if this 8 year old club is trying to latch on to the history of the old club at ibrox and make up a 150 years of history?
If the SMSM are still around by then and the SMSM try and add the two clubs that have played at ibrox history together and have a paper full of ‘souvenir pullouts’ etc.to try and sell a few extra copies. Will this ‘souvenir pullouts’ include the cheating years the unpaid tax years the hidden side letter years, the year of administration and liquidation, the not won a major trophy years. Or will these ‘souvenir pullouts’ have a missing years? Not a great selling point.
IN TODAYS NEWSPAPER A LOOK AT 150 YEARS AT IBROX WITH A FEW YEARS MISSING
so we will only be showing 130 or something, pre order your copy now.
Bit of a damp squib really.
Given that the blog has reverted to its seemingly inescapable time warp relating to events of 8-10 years ago, it is appropriate to mark the 10th anniversary of an event that set the ball rolling in contributing to
the sale of RFC for £1, its financial collapse and subsequent consequences of administration,
liquidation, as well as Res 12.
That event was HMRC's success in the Aberdeen Asset Management FTTT, the decision for which was published on 29 October 2010
RFC, who operated a similar Discounted Option tax avoidance scheme, had actually been presented with a Tax assessment as early as September 2007, which they appealed. Their appeal was put on hold pending the outcome of the AAM case. Following the decision, HMRC issued RFC with a new offer to settle the following month.
The rest, as they say, is history and "in the past it must remain". No matter how many times the blog returns to the events of 8-10 years ago, no-one in the football authorities or in the SMSM is listening, nor are they likely to change their mind now.
I believe that it is now time to move on. Not to forget what happened, but to move on all the same.
That is what I plan to do.
John Clark 25th October 2020 at 22:55
Who remembers the fun we had with the ‘Charlotte Fakes’ material?
…………………
What i came across JC.
James Doleman
A couple of people were asking me about the charlotte fakes so i emailed the crown office.
At the trial of craig whyte it was alledged by defence counsel Donald Findlay that dave king purchased this material.
However, at that time we were informed by the crown office that there was a live criminal investigation ongoing so we couldn’t follow it up.
However the crown office have confirmed that after consideration they have decided “No proceedings”ie, no further action.
So the media are now able to report what we know about the charlotte fakes without any restrictions.
James Doleman… I have one charlotte story that was sadly spiked for legal reasons. Might go and dig out the draft.
The sun picked up on james Doleman’s info and confirmed that no proceedings would be taken.
James Doleman tweeted.
A few questions now that proceedings have been dropped against “charlotte fakes” for obtaining emails and recordings made by craig whyte.
1.Why did Dave king purchase the material for £30k?
2.Did the media outlets that used the material (Daily Record/sun) get if from Dave king or the original source/
3.Why did the crown office keep proceedings “live” for 4 years so limiting reporting until yhe issues raised had died down?
4.In the course of the investigation was Dave king, or anyone else at rangers interviewed by police on suspicion of receiving stolen property?
Finally, and most importantly, what does the charlotte fakes material tell us about whyte’s takeover and his links with the press, SPL and SFA.
I’M planning a series of articles on all of this on Byline_Media will post them when done.
………………..
Just something i came across the other day after charlotte fakes had been mentioned on here the other day.
I removed words like yesterday and today incase anyone reading if got confused as if it happened yesterday or today.
Cluster One 29th October 2020 at 15:20
' .. A LOOK AT 150 YEARS AT IBROX WITH A FEW YEARS MISSING.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Cluster One, if the wee bug really gets going TRFC might be among the few clubs to have died before they reached their tenth anniversary!
Quite wealthy clubs with good credit ratings and access to millions of quid if need are getting just a tad anxious about their survival.
How must the finance people at TRFC/RIFC plc be viewing their chances of survival when their in-house lenders begin to be chary about lending any more if attendances are not permitted to return to pre-covid levels?
Ah,wait: Chinese monies via Messrs Scott and Gibson , dangran !
From 'The Guardian' tonight
"BBC 'no bias' rules prevent staff joining LGBT pride marches
Jim Waterson 2 hrs ago
The BBC’s director general, Tim Davie, introduced the rules on Thursday. They are designed to shore up the public perception of BBC impartiality, following long-running criticism pushed by right-wing media outlets about alleged biases of corporation staff."
Well, maybe Mr Davie might consider having a wee look at shoring up 'the public perception of BBC impartiality' by ruling that the ridiculous 'ban' imposed by BBC Scotland chiefs on reporting the truth that TRFC is not RFC of 1872 is so evidently an indication of bias in favour of falsehood as to bring BBC Scotland very, very much into disrepute as supporting and propagating a stupid, a stupid lie: a lie unique to Scottish Football- that a newly created football club in 2012 is the very same football club as a football club created 140 years before but which entered Liquidation as a football club in 2012!
I feel another wee questioning letter to Mr Davie being formed in my mind. I do not like being lied to!
(Actually, this business is bigger than mere 'football': we are being lied to not just by the venal, unprincipled people in football governance but also by people in the BBC – who may not be venal, but are certainly hell-bent on maintaining the lie that CG's new club is actually the Rangers of my grandfather's days!)
And I now have to re-start paying for the feckin' lies!
And away from any contentious football matters whatsoever and as a matter of pure unexpected serendipity, can I tell you this:
Yesterday, work began in my street to put in the new Broadband fibre optic or optic fibre or whatever the feck it's called.
Interested in what was physically involved- the machines that , manually pushed inch by inch, cut a trench in the pavement ,I went out to have a look when the workers reached the pavement in front of my house.
I engaged one of the workers in conversation , when he asked could he use my garden tap to fill a couple of 5-gallon bottles.
It turned out that he came from Derry.
And right away I was away back in 1948, remembering being in Shantallow as a wee boy with my brother and sisters visiting my mammy's sister.
I told him of the story we had heard about the sailor who had hanged himself in the wee woodland forest across the road.
At the end of the 'forest 'were the shores of Lough Foyle.
The young guy ( maybe in late 20s)said he had lived in Shantallow and had heard of the story!
Talk about affirmation!
(And I also remembered my dad, wearing an artificial leg from his wound at Cassino, as we sailed out of Lough Foyle on our way home, looking at the Nazi submarines tied up on the British side of Lough Foyle, saying nothing but 'Bastards!')
Cluster One 29th October 2020 at 16:00
John Clark 25th October 2020 at 22:55
Who remembers the fun we had with the ‘Charlotte Fakes’ material?…
============
That's interesting CO.
It does make you wonder though, what else went on, (and is still going on?), that the Internet Bampots are unaware of – or unable to publish for legal reasons…?
If key people involved in Scottish football were – allegedly – so dodgy before, then why would Scottish football be any cleaner today?
Based on what we do know, IMO, it's just a matter of time before there could be another huge scandal to impact the game, (and mibbees not just TRFC related).
No lessons learned.
This is raising a fair bit of noise . Conspiracy ?
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/castore-sign-newcastle-deal-rangers-22931078
paddy malarkey 30th October 2020 at 20:09
"This is raising a fair bit of noise . Conspiracy ?"
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
That made me look at today's 'Newcastle Chronicle" online report at 16.06 , by their Mark Douglas.
"It was 15 months ago that a rueful Mike Ashley compared Newcastle's kit deal to the newly-inked contract Spurs had signed with Nike.
Tottenham's seat at the top table – and regular Champions League appearances – means their deal is worth £45million-a-year.
"'That is many, many times what Newcastle can get,'" Ashley said a year ago.
"We’re not near that – nobody is, outside the top six. And I’m being told Liverpool could get £100m for the same deal."
With reports United are banking around £5million-a-year to move to challenger brand Castore next season, there's plenty to unpick about a story that would have real significance off-the-field for Newcastle.
"Castore is the brainchild of Liverpool-based brothers Tom and Phil Beahon, the ambitious siblings in their early 30s who toured the fabric mills of Italy in their 20s to pursue a dream of making luxury sportswear.
The name comes from Greek mythology – twin siblings Castor and Pollux – and the company was founded in 2016 using money from Sir Richard Branson's Virgin start up scheme.
It now counts Andy Murray, Glasgow Rangers and Rugby League club Sydney Roosters among its clients and has secured backing from rich private investors.
They were moved to distance themselves from rumours in Glasgow that Mike Ashley was a shareholder – which would have been disastrous given his unpopularity at Rangers and an on-going replica shirt boycott.
"We have investors who like to remain private. Our biggest investor is one of the wealthiest families in the UK," Tom Beahon said in May.
New Look founder Phil Singh is one of those who has plunged money into the brand.
While the designs of the kits at Rangers have been praised, they had to apologise for the quality of some of the early strips that were sold to fans – pledging to learn lessons after standards fell below the required.
A move into English football with Newcastle would be a big step for the company – and represent a sign that, whatever the state of play with the takeover, United's hierarchy are having to progress plans.
In the close season United penned a rolling extension with Puma to make this year's kits – a sensible decision given the uncertainty off-the-field.
The consortium who had agreed a deal with Newcastle had prioritised commercial deals as one way to build United's brand and were targeting major sponsorship deals as one way to do that. A reinvigorated Newcastle, they felt, could partner with major brands and the kit renewal came at an opportune time.
Work begins on kits long in advance of their summer release date but with Newcastle in talks with the PIF-backed consortium for months, the Puma deal was convenient – securing better terms than the previous deal with a company United have enjoyed working with.
As well as being one of the clubs that get bespoke rather than template kits, United have benefited from knowledge sharing with other Puma clubs like Borussia Dortmind over the years.
Puma's own deal at Newcastle arrived on the back of Ashley falling out with Nike and Adidas through his Sports Direct dealings (he complained about their market dominance as recently as 2019). It has been a decade-long partnership which has not always proved popular among supporters for some kit designs.
Industry reports of a move to Castore – which have not been stood up by the club yet – are therefore a curious development and illustrate Newcastle's "business-as-usual" approach despite takeover noise still oscillating in the background at St James' Park. While the consortium remain in contact with those in charge at United, the decisions ultimately lie with those who retain control – Mike Ashley and MD Lee Charnley, charged with doing much of the day-to-day front of house stuff.
The claims in Sportscal of a £5million-a-year tie-up would represent the lower end of what Newcastle could charge now. They remain one of the country's bigger shirt sellers and while nowhere near an international draw like Liverpool or Manchester United, that does feel like under selling the club if accurate.
It may also say something about the state of the takeover if Newcastle are starting to pursue off-field deals that are more medium to long-term.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/new-newcastle-united-kit-deal-19195147
[I have no particular interest in Castore, of course: just an interest in how the designers of sports clothing actually get manufacturers to sign up to making the stuff, and the several contractual relationships required. And, of course, I have a wee interest in Ashley in so far as he screwed King! What is the saying ? "My enemy's enemy is my friend" Ashley has done nothing to annoy me, whereas King…..]
At £68 a shirt , whatever the design, the gear can't really be of a level of quality very much superior to run of the mill tat. Certainly not of the quality of sportswear bought by elite sportspeople like Andy Murray?
PM, this NUFC involvement with Castore does indeed raise a few questions.
But, NUFC deciding to partner with Castore is rather more curious than TRFC choosing Castore, (if TRFC did in fact 'choose'?)
TRFC kit suppliers in order, have been;
Umbro, Puma, Hummel and now Castore.
TRFC seemed to be in a downward progression, to then partner with a company with zero experience / logistical scale for supplying football kits.
NUFC is in the rich EPL and is now supposedly choosing to downgrade – radically – from Puma to Castore. Castore's quality, pricing and delivery issues have been reported widely.
You would think that if NUFC was going to change supplier, they'd go in the opposite direction towards a Nike or Adidas?
On the face of it, going with Castore could simply provide Ashley with a bigger in/direct cut of the NUFC pie for clothing?
Will also be interesting to see what the Toon Army think of this development?
StevieBC 30th October 2020 at 22:55
'..Will also be interesting to see what the Toon Army think of this development
"""""""""""""""""""
Here's a couple of comments by readers of the Newcastle Chronicle piece I posted
"Toonarden 6 HRS AGO
What an embarrassment? What next – Poundstretcher at £5 per annum?
Ashley please – just bu***r off.
DA
DaveWelbeck6 HRS AGO
This is a terrible move by Ashley to tie this club into a shirt deal when he has expressed the need to leave the club at the earliest possible opportunity, and what does this say about the shape of our takeover. This is a long term deal that handicaps the club in the long term well after he says he won't be here. £5M is nothing when other clubs have more lucrative deals I'm hoping this is purely paper talk or there's a clause in the contract to terminate this deal if there's change of ownership. And by all accounts there's been quality issues with the Glasgow Rangers shirt this season with poor stitching and poor motifs."
StevieBC 30th October 2020 at 22:55
Will also be interesting to see what the Toon Army think of this development?
……………………
If the Toon Army have had a glance at castore and the ibrox club, I can see the toon army going down the retro shirt buying. And on that note i see the ibrox club have released a retro kit.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-launch-retro-style-kit-22929751
………….
The kit will have a larger scroll crest similar to that on the top on one of Rangers’ most famous nights back in 1972 when they lifted the European Cup Winners’ Cup.
The plain blue home strip is a throwback to olden Rangers days and Castore say it is inspired by famous shirts and players from the Ibrox club’s history,
Rangers have launched a new ‘retro’ style kit that will be worn during games this season.
James Tavernier insists he can’t wait to get the shirt on and reckons it’s a throwback to days of club legends such as John Greig.
He said: “I love it. It’s bringing old school back! Walking into Jimmy’s kit room every morning, you see John Greig and Sandy Jardine on the wall wearing these kind of kits. It’s bringing some really good heritage back and I’m looking forward to putting it on.”
………..
So not so much a retro top, just a miss mash of old tops that look similar to old tops.
new ‘retro’ style kit that will be worn during games this season.
That won’t be happening unless it is friendly games as all kit designs must be registered by june.
…
Walking into Jimmy’s kit room every morning, you see John Greig and Sandy Jardine on the wall wearing these kind of kits.
But not wearnig this new miss mash strip.
….Fool me once, fool me twice….Aw forget it.
Marius Zaluikus.
RIP Captain
Another youngish athlete succumbing to the curse that is MND
HS
reasonablechap 28th October 2020 at 09:29
Regards Rangers, what I think will happen is that you’ll have a general, overarching and increasingly accepted reality with increasingly smaller protest groups making their points without much attention being paid to them. What may be louder are fotball chants/songs at games.
I’d imagine that if/when Rangers win their next trophy, there will be groups of mostly Celtic supporters making it their job to publicly bring up their version of 2012 as loudly as they can. Overtime and if more trophies were to follow, these efforts would dissapate.
_________________________________________________________________
Just doing a bit of catching up and could not help notice that you are carrying out the same philosophy as the media and that is repeat the name often enough with stats thrown in and the lie will stick. regardless of how much you claim a lie to be the truth and repeat it often enough, the thing is it will always be a lie.
How wrong of you and arrogant of you to think that with only a minority knowing the truth a victory will be achieved. You really believe below, this will make a lie dimminish, really!!
"with increasingly smaller protest groups making their points without much attention being paid to them".
What a statement, basically all that is saying is keep repeating it and it will go away and what an arrogant man, to all people who know the truth, you call protesters, the only ones protesting were the new club fans who saw their old club plaunged into liquidation and written off. sink us and we'll sink you, say not to liquidation, we will not stand by and watch our club die,well sorry to be the bringer of bad news but thats exactly what happened and your compliant media reported it at the time, 8 minutes it took to liquidate and wipe out 140years of history.
The minority as history will show were the ones who refused to sit at the back of the bus and that turned out just fine, a lie will always be a lie, so when the new club calling themselves Rangers lift a trophy, who cares, as long as they are reminded and humble to themselves that deep down they know it will be the first major in this particular clubs history and stop the circus . Wont hold my breath troll boy.
8 years ago today Lord Hodge approves liquidation. In those 8 years BDO have made a lot of money. Who knew 8 years they would still be at it. Maybe if the ibrox club had not shredded so many files and removed so many side letters, BDO would not have taken so long and more money would be in the pot for creditors.
Cluster One 31st October 2020 at 22:21
Indeed, a liquidators job is not just to sell of the assets and distribute the money between the creditors, they are also enjoined to investigate why the business went into liquidation in the first place. A full set of business records would no doubt help with that.
https://www.bdo.co.uk/en-gb/our-people/malcolm-cohen
"Malcolm leads BDO’s National Contentious Insolvency team and has over 30 years business restructuring and insolvency experience."
Edinburgh was certainly in the news yesterday. Big Sean from Tollcross/ Fountainbridge passed on after a very full and notable life that gave so much to many. Then a few hours later as Hearts and Hibs took to the field at Hampden, news came through that the ex-Hearts captain, Marius Zaluikus had died at the shockingly young age of 36. Another, who as he skippered the Hearts team to their famous 2012 Scottish Cup success, helped give lifelong memories to at least one half of the capital city.
The football almost seems incidental, but for many it wasn’t and Hearts, despite all the hurdles put up in their path managed to reach another final. If they were to win might make them the first Scottish club to have won the cup but not get to play in European competition (since it was introduced).
==========
Paddy
When it comes to your attention on all things Rangers, maybe it is the Cove team that should worry you most. I note speculation, that thing that you can’t seem to abide in certain cases is now your bag.
==========
Highlander
Yes, I agree that we’ve reached the end of that particular conversation.
==========
BigBoab
As for time and diminishing protest/attention. I don’t even think it’s a controversial thing to say. You can even see it on here, with the decreasing numbers of active posters, mostly stuck in what easyjambo referred to as “inescapable time warp“.
I note that no-one has replied to the easyjambo post of the other day which included the following…
“The rest, as they say, is history and “in the past it must remain”. No matter how many times the blog returns to the events of 8-10 years ago, no-one in the football authorities or in the SMSM is listening, nor are they likely to change their mind now.
I believe that it is now time to move on. Not to forget what happened, but to move on all the same.”
When you were catching up on the blog did you not see that ? If I had posted similar, I’d have almost certainly been engaged with loud disagreement. I guess when you have (IMO), the best poster on here say stuff that might not go down well with many, the thing to do is act if it hadn’t happened.
Homunculus 31st October 2020 at 22:58
'Indeed, a liquidators job is not just to sell of the assets and distribute the money between the creditors, they are also enjoined to investigate why the business went into liquidation..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Lord Hodge , of course, was satisfied that the Administrators were blameless of any irregular action or criminality in relation to their conduct as the appointed Administrators once Administration action was begun.
But so far as I know, we have read nothing from the Liquidators about how and why SDM's RFC Board had allowed such massive debts to have been accumulated or why there was , apparently, no proper 'due diligence' performed on a hitherto nonentity of a 'MBMB', or serious examination/criticism of the BoS for its extraordinary lax readiness (as I see it) to support a financially deeply troubled football club.
Will we ever hear? Will the people truly responsible for the death of a famous 140-year-old football club ever be held properly to account? Ever be properly shamed and disgraced for causing so much trouble to a nation's sport, as well as financial loss to many, many people?
Oh for a Woodward and/or Bernstein even now to emerge from the ranks of the SMSM.
As if!
Sooner expect Hell to freeze over before that would happen.
John
I often refer to the importance of aiming high if you seriously want to attempt to change a malignant culture regards business and it's practices.
2008 was the time to go after banks, the revolving doors from finance to Westminster and the like.
Many individuals were allowed to escape relative accountability. They rode the storm and essentially got Joe Public to pay for their gambling debts. Their way of doing business didn't change to the degree it should have.
The whole shooting match is set up in a way and is so entrenched, that makes it ever more difficult to go against it #TheBigSqueeze
John Clark 1st November 2020 at 07:57
It is always worth bearing in mind that any Judge, Court or indeed Tribunal makes their judgement based on the evidence presented to them.
The administration process for Rangers was a disgrace, and I say that having spoken to an Insolvency Practitioner who dealt with football clubs.
Am I not right in saying they actually brought Green in to help run the club, on the basis that he was going to be buying it anyway, as it turned out he was only able to buy the assets but that was not the plan. Did he not say that if HMRC were going to vote against the CVA why did they not tell us that back in February.
Everything was done to assist the business, that is not what administration is supposed to be about. It should be about saving the company and it's employees, failing that getting the best return for it's creditors.
I do not believe that happened.
I say again, the release of negative goodwill by the new club shows just how much the assets were undersold for.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18837455.fifa-asked-probe-douglas-ross-neutrality-rule-breach/
……………
INTERNATIONAL football chiefs have been asked to investigate whether or not Douglas Ross has broken strict neutrality rules by using FIFA’s badge on Tory party leaflets.
One page featured a picture of the Moray MP at his second job, working as a professional referee, wearing a shirt emblazoned with the FIFA badge.
The image of Ross – who’s running the line at today’s Scottish Cup semi-final between Celtic and Aberdeen – was also used by the party for their campaign calling on the Scottish Government to create a “fans fighting fund
………………..
You would think that a well run oranisation like the SFA would Let their employees know thinks like this may not be allowed. But then again many don’t see the SFA as a well run organisation.
………..
FIFA did not respond to requests for comment.
Homunculus 1st November 2020 at 13:24
Am I not right in saying they actually brought Green in to help run the club, on the basis that he was going to be buying it anyway, as it turned out he was only able to buy the assets but that was not the plan. Did he not say that if HMRC were going to vote against the CVA why did they not tell us that back in February
……………….
He got the Nod.
…………………………
As for time and diminishing protest/attention. I don’t even think it’s a controversial thing to say. You can even see it on here, with the decreasing numbers of active posters, mostly stuck in what easyjambo referred to as “inescapable time warp“.
I note that no-one has replied to the easyjambo post of the other day which included the following…
“The rest, as they say, is history and “in the past it must remain”. No matter how many times the blog returns to the events of 8-10 years ago, no-one in the football authorities or in the SMSM is listening, nor are they likely to change their mind now.
I believe that it is now time to move on. Not to forget what happened, but to move on all the same.”
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
No one can move on if the mistakes from the past are not corrected.What is to stop them happening again?
………………..
reasonablechap 1st November 2020 at 07:46
When you dug me out I thought it might be you answering
what does "Peter and the PLC are on the black and white reality side of the the subject and don’t agree with the general stance on SFM. " mean ?
And
Can I ask why you think I would perceive anybody, let alone Peter Lawwell , as an enemy ?
And
I note speculation, that thing that you can’t seem to abide in certain cases is now your bag.
Where did I ever post about not abiding speculation ? " Take your time finding the posts . And , please , not the usual dross of you deliberately misinterpreting or misconstruing words to suit your agenda .
"In your bag " . I speculate that you're coming on all amateur psychologist there , baby
Plus , I don't worry about Rangers – they died – nor do I worry about Cove Rangers as they are just a footb all club like us . I do worry about the ability of our management team to get us on the correct path .
Haven't seen your response to this yet , with a link to an official statement , if you would be so kind .
https://web.archive.org/web/20160305151928/http://www.fifa.com/world-match-centre/news/newsid/197/701/7/index.html
Cluster One 1st November 2020 at 14:04
” But then again many don’t see the SFA as a well run organisation”
“”””””””””””””””””””””””
Oh, it runs well enough , Cluster One, when it manufactures works of fiction that pervert the very notion of ‘sporting achievement’.
It runs better at that than it does in ensuring that clubs/referees/4th assistants know the rules about substitutions in extra time!
Just what was that problem in yesterday’s match, that our pundits could not explain? ( To be fair, I didn’t quite understand it myself, but then, of course, I’m not paid to be a football coach or a radio sports pundit!
reasonablechap 1st November 2020 at 07:46
"I believe that it is now time to move on. Not to forget what happened, but to move on all the same.”
I think you will find the only ones that have not moved on are the media and the old club fans, for it is they who cannot accept and bring it in them to admitt their old club died through liquidation and they watched it happen. Growing men crying and papers in shock writing the story of 140 years in minutes gone.
However, the lifeline thrown to them in the lie of survival by Charles Green is the greatest ever story of deception as he manged even with yourself, to get all onboard and once he had his hand in your pocket, there was no turning back, the club that is operating now has the distinction of holding media and fans to ransom trapped in a fantasy, yet should they jump off, will find themselves in a world cut of ffrom a culture they have been indoctrinated into, as the fans said a death in the family.
You are simply trapped in that majority and will use anything to convince yourself that you are right and we are wrong, but at the end of the day, I can hold my hand up and tell my generations what I witnessed, whilst your day is filled with lies, if you believe what you are watching and seeing was the same club come back to life.
Homunculus 1st November 2020 at 13:24
'.the administration process for Rangers was a disgrace, …the release of negative goodwill by the new club shows just how much the assets were undersold for.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I am at one with you in that opinion, Homunculus.
There seems to have been nothing that Lord Hodge found criminal about it, and nothing that the Insolvency Practitioners Association found to be irregular, which, of course, touches on your point that those sitting in 'judgment' can deal only with what are presented to them as 'facts'.
If the 'presentation' of facts ( i.e. if witnesses lie) is itself skewed in favour of the accused, or as incompetently botched up as was, in my opinion, the indictment of certain persons was, then of course the judgment will also be skewed. No discredit to judges, of course.
Inevitably.
I hope that there will in time be some brilliant person who will dig into
-the dirty wee cheating rottenness of a football club that lied to both the tax authorities and the football authorities for years,
-the connection that that club had with the football authorities which might have ensured that the lies were concealed for a decade or more,
-a connection which caused the football authorities to create a monumental sporting fiction
and abandon any sense of moral authority as a governance of a sport!
Geez, if TRFC have won innumerable sporting honours over the140 years that they never kicked a ball, what price any sporting achievement?
The lie that TRFC is RFC of 1872 has destroyed Scottish professional football as a sport, because sporting 'competition' dies when the game is in effect rigged and financial cheats are treated as honest competitors.
Simples.
I suppose the upcoming, '150th anniversary' celebrations down Govan way could be tolerated – if there was some degree of acknowledgement / humility?
If the celebration references were not quoted as "150" but rather "(140+10)", then it could be a step in the right direction.
I know: that's as likely to happen as Dave King cracking a smile.
"(140+10)" – simple and to the point.
StevieBC 2nd November 2020 at 01:02
I preder to think of them celebrating the birth of the club they supported and let die , that was founded around that time . I had thought it was in March 1872 ,
As far as those who wish to remain in the 2012 bubble or time warp, fine…I will now simply let you get on with it without comment. You obviously aren’t going to accept anything I say and you seem to be simply ignoring what Easyjambo has posted and pretending it didn’t happen.
Same numbers but in a different order, 2021…promises to be quite a year with regard to challenges for the Scottish footballing authorities and everyone else who come under that authority (even Peter and the PLC, who when it suits, seem to be able to be very much a big part of the decision-making authority).
I note that Peter’s friends at the SPFL who provided the 2020 omnishambles are still in post but aren’t trusted by enough clubs in the game to give them the power they crave for 20/21. They asked for that power back in the summer as a box ticking exercise, knowing they wouldn’t get it. Now they are trying again and asking questions that should have been asked prior to the start of the League…..
Omnishambles II….not coming to a cinema near you but it is coming for the Scottish game. Might even be an idea for those mostly still in 2012, to give a wee bit of consideration to the present, just saying !!
I find it ironic that the 2020 SC Final will be contested by the PLC and Hearts. Back in April of this year when the semi-finals were originally scheduled, it was IMO, Peter, who was the biggest influence in railroading the infamous SPFL resolution and Hearts (alongside Partick and Stranraer) who were the biggest losers.
For all that many on here talk about fairness and integrity, that angle was easily dismissed when self-interest came into play.
One thing about the Saturday semi-final that I forgot to mention was the respective logos on the teams shirts. Whilst the lack of fans didn’t help the spectacle, the Save the Children and Thank You NHS messages together did provide a very positive image and both teams deserve credit. A contrast to the Old Firm bookmakers derby.
reasonablechap 2nd November 2020 at 08:05
'.. You obviously aren’t going to accept anything I say'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Not quite so: your comments on any other subject under the sun may be as valid and valuable as anyone else's.
The problem is that you defend a Lie as Truth; your readiness to let Scottish Football quite cynically allow a new club to claim to be a club that, even as the claim is made, is lying there in Liquidation, as dead as Third Lanark and the Gretna of Brooks Mileson is not acceptable.
There can be no genuine 'moving on' until the lie is openly acknowledged by those who conceived it, and foster and propagate it, and rescinded.
What that may do to RIFC plc ,as being exposed as the holding company merely of an eight-year-old football club, is neither here nor there, as against the restoration of honest football governance, and the kicking out of liars and cheats.
John
It would be a lot more interesting if you were to have the discussion with Easyjambo, who posted about his personal choice of moving-on (29th October 2020 at 15:41). At first I was surprised you didn’t get back to him on that but having thought about it, can understand why.
For me, Easyjambo is a highly respected poster on here who best manages to stick to the facts, retain a degree of impartiality where possible and offer informed, reasonable opinions. That is why I think such a discussion would be much more interesting than you and me going back and forth.
Not to mention, I’m not going to get involved further in what is basically the resurrected OC/NC thread. I’ll leave you to it as I think a storm is brewing for the not too distant future.
Penalty Stat Guy has gone a bit quiet???
I make it 4 penalties for 2angers in their last 5 SPFL games.
Maybe worth a wee bet on Tavernier (Pen) for seasons top scorer?
John Clark @ 10.54
I guess RC and his ilk would use the argument of ‘plausible deniability’, otherwise known to most of us on here as lying.
normanbatesmumfc
Comin’ down the tracks – in keeping with the ‘Stop 10IAR’ campaign by the usual suspects?
Oops – there goes paranoid me again!
I talked earlier about the logos/messages on the Edinburgh clubs shirts, seen together on Saturday evening.
I think it reflects well on Hearts and Ann Budge that their decision regards what logo to go with was made long before the pandemic and at a difficult time for the club.
I bring this up because when Ann Budge said that she believed in fairness and that she'd have pushed for the same outcome during the SPFL omnishambolic railroaded resolution had it been another club, many dismissed that with a sarcastic "aye, of course you would".
I think the decision about using the Save the Children logo points to someone with honour who I for one, believe.
Yet the SMSM attack dogs went after her, very much including those who had direct SPFL sources.
JC, absolutely!
And that is the crux of the matter, IMO.
It is in the gift of those who have been wronged, (e.g. ALL non-Ibrox supporters, ALL taxpayers), to choose to forgive and forget past transgressions.
Acknowledgment and acceptance of wrongdoing – as well as seeking forgiveness – is a prerequisite for ‘moving on’ for everybody involved, or affected.
TRFC claiming to be RFC is offensive, IMO, and a clear two-fingers-up to everybody else. No contrition shown and no forgiveness sought.
That’s the new Ibrox club’s choice. It’s still everybody else’s choice as to whether to forgive and forget.
I choose to call out The Rangers at every opportunity – for as long as they continue to lie about being the same club which conducted industrial-scale cheating, over many, many years.
Oops .
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jordan-jones-george-edmundson-face-22943770
Oops too .
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-slapped-uefa-fine-governing-22943850
Norman
My post about penalty stats certainly served it's purpose !!
Look at it this way….no league penalties for nearly a year and then several come in quick succession. It fits the old analogy about the buses perfectly….Nowt to see for those who like a conspiracy.
Yesterday was an absolute stonewaller and as for numbers, Aberdeen have been awarded more and Lewis Ferguson (6) has scored more league penalties than Tav (4). Note, Aberdeen have played 180 minutes less 20/21 league football than Rangers.
The other point being that this season is generally seeing more penalties being awarded in all football, or at least that is what it seems like to me.
I wonder how Nicola will react to the latest football covid scandal . Games postponed(yellow card ) or push football back into intensive care (red card ) ?
Paddy
Taking your eye off your rival (Cove) Rangers might see you miss out on promotion.
Sounds as if you are almost lobbying for a red card, aslong as Rangers are seen as baddies #LookLook(zealous tone)
Going by the link you posted, it looks as if Rangers have kept track of what their players have been doing and taken timely and appropriate action. The players have been stupid and reckless.
Nicola has a difficult job to do. If football clubs take on due responsibility and take immediate action then it'll allow the government to get on with important business.
reasonablechap 2nd November 2020 at 11:59
Yet the SMSM attack dogs went after her, very much including those who had direct SPFL sources.
Names , please of the "attack dogs " and the direct SPFL sources you reckon they have . You could append the answer to the list you have still to deliver .
Paddy
I’m not playing the Internet Cup with you. If you are incapable of reading between the lines or lateral thinking then that is your choice/problem.
I’ll grant you this last one given the simplicity: Jackson/Doncaster or other similar SPFL ‘friend’
paddy malarkey 2nd November 2020 at 12:17
The way some football players have acted during this has been appalling, irrespective of which club they play for.
I am sure the same can be said for a lot of plumbers, architects, teachers, governmental health experts and other advisors.
The difference with footballers is that a, it is more likely to be reported on and b, they are (for some bizarre reason) seen as "role models".
I'm afraid that with the "let's just get on with life" opinion appearing to be growing this is exactly what we don't need.
This thing is really simple, if we want to control the spread and save lives people need to follow the guidelines. If we don't then it will keep on going.
Some public figures really aren't helping, I sincerely hope Rangers (and any other club who identifies players breaking the rules) send out a strong message.
reasonablechap 2nd November 2020 at 12:41
So that's a no ? Post p*sh and don't back it up then cast aspersions at anybody challenging said p*sh ?
Jackson/Doncaster are the attack dogs ? How so ? Can we have something other than your fevered imagination and delusion ?
And we're not talking plumbers , etc , regarding the footballers who broke the rulwes . If I remember correctly , Nicola Sturgeon made plain that the two week sit down imposed on AFC and CFC was to be considered as a yellow card .
"Consider today the yellow card. The next time it will be the red card because you will leave us with absolutely no choice."
The clubs appear to have taken to heart the gravity of the situation , it's their employees who are causing the problem , and I would expect the Scottish Government to abide by it's previous statement . Need to wait to see what the red card means for clubs and leagues .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54777272
………..
Oh Dear covid breaches. wonder if they will get another strong worded letter?
reasonablechap 2nd November 2020 at 12:28
Going by the link you posted, it looks as if Rangers have kept track of what their players have been doing and taken timely and appropriate action. The players have been stupid and reckless.
………………
if Rangers have kept track of what their players have been doing. Are you saying they knew they were going to a house party?
………………
Nicola has a difficult job to do.
…
That is why she issued a yellow card. As a warning to clubs and players. looks like these players never headed that warning
We'll mibbes see now if your man is right about PL being in charge of Scottish football with the sanction applied to TRFC over the covid breach ..Anything less than a minimum two games suspendedf for the club , plus other sanctions ,would , to my mind , show that he doesn't . .
Paddy
Take a break from throwing yellow or red Sh**e at the moon and read the Scottish Government’s commendation for the way Rangers reacted to the crass stupidity of two of their players.
#Swift&Decisive
https://twitter.com/ClydeSSB/status/1323305651599216641
Apparently it was the Police who discovered the situation and took the initial action.
reasonablechap 2nd November 2020 at 17:28
Scottish Government’s commendation for the way Rangers reacted to the crass stupidity of two of their players.
……………….
I recall celtic took swift action also.
Reasonablechap
Read it on release. What's PL's thinking then? And why is he hiding behind the Scottish Government? What I'd like to read is the answers to my questions, starting.with the one on speculation, if you would be so kind. Then you can go and mourn your dead club, with my permission.
In other news, well actually in the same story
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54777272
"Meanwhile, Rangers have been fined £4,500 by Uefa for breaching the governing body's Return to Play Protocol during their Europa League play-off win against Galatasaray at Ibrox."
Oh and
"Jones has made just four appearances for Rangers this season, while English centre-half Edmundson, 23, played the second of his two games this season over a month ago."
"Rangers say the incident took place just hours after Steven Gerrard's side defeated Kilmarnock 1-0 to go nine points clear at the top of the Scottish Premiership. Neither player was in the matchday squad."
Swift and decisive action, against two players who can't get a game, even a spot on the bench, and will not be available anyway.
This evening, in between making some potato scones from today's left-over mashed spuds, I was having a read at Mr Justice Nicol's judgment in the Depp v Heard libel case.(you should find it here
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2020/2911.html
I noted ,with some satisfaction and comfort, the Judge's reference to 'The defence of truth:'
which is handy to have if anyone were to challenge me on the assertion of fact that RFC of 1872 entered Liquidation in 2012 and ceased in consequence to be a recognised football club entitled to participate in Scottish professional football; or on the fact that the football club known as The Rangers Football Club which was newly admitted into Scottish professional football in 2012 is not RFC of 1872!
But I was creased with laughter ,and nearly burnt my finger, when I saw this, from Depp's own statement ,quoted [at Para 99]
'I am from a Southern family and rules were instilled in me from birth by my mother: you would be a southern gentleman or it would be beaten into you. … Integrity, dignity, honesty and respect for women: these were the characteristics that I was always expected to have.'
I knew I had heard the words that I have put in bold in an entirely different context, but I'm damned if I can remember that context!
Might it have been a football context?
ps. the tottie scones were, like the curate's egg, good in parts. I think I had the gas a tad too high- which meant that I took them off in case they burnt, which in turn meant that they were a shade undercooked. But they were eatable and quite tasty notwithstanding.
Homunculus 2nd November 2020 at 22:08
'.."Meanwhile, Rangers have been fined £4,500 by Uefa for breaching the governing body's Return to Play Protocol.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I confess that I may not have been paying full attention to 'Sportsound' tonight, but I don't think that fine was even mentioned let alone analysed to death.
Was it mentioned?
"He was drinking whiskey and wine"
Para 207 of Mr Justice Nicol's judgment in the Depp v Heard case.
"Whiskey"?
Is his lordship an Irishman, with that spelling?
CO, PM & H
The central issue here is a pandemic, not just any old thing that you can fit into the old Rangers v Celtic paradigm of argument.
I wasn’t trying to boast with the swift & decisive quote from the Scottish government spokesperson. It was simply to close down the excited chatter on yellow and red cards that came from an obvious (wilfully blind?) misreading of the situation.
Th players involved have shown crass stupidity and will have the club and the SFA to answer to. The important thing regarding the virus, is that it was nipped in the bud due to police action and any potential transmission was avoided. This is THE important factor with regards to the main question of public health, as well as within the football club.
All clubs will be keen to nip any situation in the bud and be seen to be swift and decisive, regardless if the players involved are first team regulars or not. In this case, Rangers were fortunate that the Police were on top of the situation as it happened and therefore once the Police had taken action, were given the opportunity to be swift with their decision. The decision was essentially an easy one, the only one, the right one and at this stage, one that I think all clubs would have adopted in the same circumstances.
I could compare it against other instances that had different circumstances but I’m not interested in tribal offence comparison when it comes to clubs. I’ll leave that to others if they want to go down that route.
=======
The UEFA sanction against Rangers seems to be a relatively minor breach that refers to the accreditation system but I don’t know the fine detail. Action has been taken by the UEFA disciplinary body (funnily enough, one of Peters friends is a member/Doncaster #ProbableRecuse). The relatively small amount (fine) also suggests a minor breach. However, not a good look (I don’t know subsequent level of risk that arose) and the club need to ensure no repeat.
Yesterday, whilst on the subject of penalties, I used the old analogy about waiting on a bus for ages and then two come along.
You could also use it for Hearts v Celtic Scottish Cup Finals. There hadn’t been one for 64 years and we are probably going to have two on the bounce, if the game is played in December.
Hearts beat Celtic 3-1 in 1956 in front of 132,840 fans (wiki) which is a number that hasn’t been surpassed since (there had been larger attendances prior to 1956). Contrast that to the possible 0 fans in 2020.
How long can the Scottish game keep going on 0 ?
Homunculus 2nd November 2020 at 22:08
In other news, well actually in the same story
………………
“We will not tolerate behaviour that does not follow those standards and it is totally unacceptable for any of our players to be involved in anything that puts at risk the excellent protocols that have been put in place at Rangers.”
……………
Excellent protocols, just as they get a fine from UEFA for not following protocol
reasonablechap 3rd November 2020 at 08:05
"The decision was essentially an easy one, the only one, the right one and at this stage, one that I think all clubs would have adopted in the same circumstances."
…………………………………………………
Would that have been the same if the players involved had been Kent and Goldson?
The precedent has been set by the Scottish Govt and they need to follow through on their Yellow Card rhetoric. However it would be unfair to punish the whole of Scottish Football for one clumpany's failures. Hence a 10 point penalty should suffice
Come on St Nicola of Govan! Let's see where your loyalties lie…..
https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-announces-latest-club-consultation-response
…………….
In the interests of transparency,
Do they now just insert this phrase into every statement they have put out since 2012?
reasonablechap
I have to admit that I was one indulging in excited chatter, but at the time had heard stuff that has subsequently been denied. I think the PR people at Murray Park are now firmly in control. I know one person who has had a slap for speaking out of turn.
The fine was for breaches of stewarding protocols wrt control of zones within the stadium.
Link to the post(s) where I decry speculation yet?
https://twitter.com/Heavidor/status/1323674009997856770/photo/1
……………….
Another share issue. Have club 72 got a seat at the table yet?
Cluster One 3rd November 2020 at 18:17
If anything their percentage shareholding has dropped. They now sit at 6th place in the shareholders table.
If they are not amongst the chosen few selected by the board to buy shares that will keep happening unless they make private purchases, which puts no money into the club and goes to the seller.
My impression of Club 1872 is that it is neither a proper shareholder or a proper supporters group. Trying to be the supporter's voice, and a significant shareholder with aspirations of a place on the board is not really working. The foot in both camps element is problematic.
Homunculus 3rd November 2020 at 18:36
Cluster One 3rd November 2020 at 18:17
If anything their percentage shareholding has dropped. They now sit at 6th place in the shareholders table.
………………
A seat on the board was all part of the sales pitch back in the day.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/15898584.rangers-q-club-1872-1million-share-issue-fundraising-drive-ashley-share-purchase-board-representation-fan-ownership/
While I always tend to agree with Easyjambo that things are perhaps not as bad as people would like to think 're the Ibrox finances, I always caveat that there are always the unknown unknowns.
A £4 million share issue hot on the heals of one a few months back surely can't be a good sign 're cash flow.
wottpi, agreed.
And it does raise the question as to why RIFC has seemingly chosen to delay releasing its 19/20 Accounts – even without the pandemic, the RIFC financials were going to be bad, again.
In contrast, CFC chose not to take up the pandemic related option to submit their financials to Companies House by 31/03/21 and have released the information at the normal time.
Logistically, RIFC could have done exactly the same, without the need for taking the 3 months delay.
I would hazard a guess that the majority of the work to produce the RIFC financials was completed by end of August – with further external audit related work to be completed, as perfectly normal.
Based on '18/'19 revenues, RIFC is significantly smaller than CFC at £53M v. £83M respectively, or CFC is roughly half as big again than RIFC.
…and yet, CFC still managed to issue it's own results on time.
So, IMO, why is RIFC choosing to sit on its completed, financial results for the year to 30th June?
wottpi 4th November 2020 at 10:54
While I always tend to agree with Easyjambo that things are perhaps not as bad as people would like to think ‘re the Ibrox finances, I always caveat that there are always the unknown unknowns.
A £4 million share issue hot on the heals of one a few months back surely can’t be a good sign ‘re cash flow.
========%%%========
I’d counter your unknown unknowns with an in your face known called Covid 19 and the economic pain that it is causing the vast majority of clubs when it comes to cash flow (projections).
I asked a question yesterday ...How long can the Scottish game keep going on 0 (attending fans) ?
I know that generally the blog is trapped in the Blue Prism but what is around the corner is economic carnage that may well be a before and after moment for the Scottish game (and a lot more beside). That said, at least we can trust and depend on the leadership at the SPFL !
Far be it for me to distract posters from their normal focus but there really is an elephant knocking on the door. I’d speculate that Covid19 wasn’t a Level5 construct.
wottpi 4th November 2020 at 10:54
Does anyone know who "bought" these shares. Did it actually bring in new money or was it a further conversion of debt.
Unless it was an actual sale it wouldn't help cash flow surely, it might make the books look better (by reducing the debt) but it would not do much more than that.
Homunculus 4th November 2020 at 14:29
wottpi 4th November 2020 at 10:54
Does anyone know who “bought” these shares. Did it actually bring in new money or was it a further conversion of debt.
……………
If i remember it took a day or so after the last share issue to come out who bought them and SMSM headlines of investment.
…………………
@JBLuvsCeltic
·
21h
Replying to
@Heavidor
Shareholders approved a res at the last AGM to allow directors to allot up to 100m shares before the next AGM. This now makes 62m shares allotted after the 42.25m a few weeks ago.
Wouldn’t be surprised to see another allotment before the next AGM.
……………….
Another share issue and a fire sale in January, should keep the lights on
reasonablechap
Covid-19 is not an elephant in the room, it's there front and square, and there is nowhere for clubs to run. No business can survive without adapting to the new normal, but we are nowhere near the point where we can say that it's behind us and which restrictions can be lifted. It may well be that a large number of clubs will fail or restructure in the lower levels of the pyramid but I speculate that the cherished elite will be happy to see them leave the lifeboat, as that will enhance their chances of coming out at the other end of the pandemic. Another restructure could be on the horizon . The fact that people can be re infected within 6 months means that even a vaccine isn't going to be a cure-all and get us back into stadia in the numbers we were attending previously, so a move away from that model (bums on seats) is inevitable, imo. Streaming live games will only be part of any solution.
In other news, I note that SG is urging us to move on from the TRFC players' covid escapade. "Sweep, sweep " , as cheek fans are known to banter with each other ?
And I'd wager that the CEO with Oriental eyes isn't responsible for covid-19 either.
reasonablechap 4th November 2020 at 13:14
"I know that generally the blog is trapped in the Blue Prism but what is around the corner is economic carnage that may well be a before and after moment for the Scottish game (and a lot more beside). That said, at least we can trust and depend on the leadership at the SPFL !"
Could that be the economic carnage, (armageddon), predicted in 2012 when your club died?
The greatest culprit in spending recklessly is your new club, (apple doesn't fall far from the tree) with 10s of millions in losses during their 8-year lifespan. Don't forget the 273 creditors who experienced "economic carnage" due to this practice in the past…..
Scottish FA to make up to 18 staff members redundant following review. Also predicting losses of around £4.5 million due to COVID-19
……………….
What chance have clubs
paddy malarkey 4th November 2020 at 15:44
And I'd wager that the CEO with Oriental eyes isn't responsible for covid-19 either
==========================================
Who?
I note that in the recent consultation process, only 20 SPFL clubs (less than 50%) agreed to give the SPFL board/exec. extra powers to deal with virus related circumstances that may arise.
I seem to recall 27 clubs gave the SPFL their backing with 2 abstensions in the resolution to force an independent investigation into the SPFL and events surrounding Omnishambles I.
I said before the later, that to not have an independent investigation at that point would have a cost further down the line (greater than the cost of an investigation). It was an opportunity to draw some kind of line under what had happened, either forcing necessary change or clearing individuals names and thus making it more probable that at least 76% of clubs may support a reslolution to give the SPFL the powers they seek.
Hollywood often squeeze out a sequel but the SPFL won’t make money on the back of Omnishambles II
Reasonablechap.
Covid was an unknown unknown that has hit all football clubs.
The ones who will best survive are the ones who were on a solid footing and reacted quickly to deal with the situation.
Those who continue on as normal are the ones most likely to run into trouble.
I see little or no evidence of T'Rangers acting anyway different from the old club. That being, trying to spend their way out of trouble in the hope of some Euro success. In 2012 the unknown unknowns were that the money from never ending share issues dried up, Euro runs ended and Hector finally came calling.
Not saying the current club is going to fall but it is a tightrope they are travelling along.
You could surmise that the £4 m is to cover the loss of income from home gates at Euro ties. Therefore the club may have budgeted (gambled) on that income stream and Covid has blown that out the water much the same as McCoists Euro failure.
It really is a case of seeing how long 'investors' can keep funding the club to the required level of spending.
Reasonablechap
Plenty other unknown unknowns
What is the true cost of transfer business.
Has Morelos and other chums been asking for more cash
What is the overall wage bill like.
Are Euro bonuses and other financial incentives being paid but no gate income to cover it.
T'Rangers aren't the only ones. Dundee Utd must be on a shoogly peg with their wages to income ratio.
I have always tipped my hat to the financial juggling going on at Ibrox but still convinced it wouldn't take too much for the pack of cards to fall again. It may never come to that but no one should be surprised if it did.
Most senior clubs will have liquidity problems right now as restrictions continue to bite.
And you can guess what could be happening now, or shortly, WRT the SFA’s treatment of clubs going bust. There could be lobbying at Hampden by clubs most at risk – to get exceptional treatment due to covid impacts.
TRFC could even position itself as a ‘leader’ of those clubs, to force the SFA/SPFL to accommodate their demands.
And, TRFC could simultaneously try to exploit any restructuring concessions given to clubs to try to ‘legitimise’ their continuation lie, and their claims to unearned trophies.
Separately, RIFC doesn’t have a break even plan: at best, it’s winging it.
Even with EL revenues, the previous 2 years returned eight figure losses. The RIFC Accounts for ’19/’20 – which Ibrox is rather reluctant to release – will show yet another loss of c.£10M, or more.
Murray applied financial doping by using other people’s money – mostly Bank of Scotland money.
Financial doping is still present at Ibrox – and again, there is no oversight from Hampden. The only difference this time is that not one bank will risk giving RIFC even one pound of credit!
Homunculus 4th November 2020 at 21:49
Sorry , some fans of a certain new club refer to PL as Pete the Jap , etc , I think in light of his arched eyebrows . Hilarious , innit ?
paddy malarkey 5th November 2020 at 09:59
I think casual racism would be a better description.
Sorry, me no understandy…
I thought the separation was an accepted given now no…?
reasonablechap 5th November 2020 at 08:24
“When you pull on that jersey you are not just playing for a football club, you’re playing for an Engine room subsidiary.
Should have had that on the dressing room at ibrox back in the day. Players may have gone that little bit extra;-)
Shot yourself in the foot with that one.
"When you pull on that jersey you are not just playing for a football club, you're playing for a PLC"
Wonder what TUPE would think.
TUPE was one of my favourite Rangers / The Rangers pieces of nonsense Charles Green came up with.
I wondered at the time, did he genuinely believe the bunkum he was spouting. Or was it just more propaganda to try to strengthen the "No Change here" lie.
Homunculus
I'm sure he, being a most Reasonable Chap, had all his employees backs ………….stabbed!
bect67 5th November 2020 at 16:59
He wasn't best pleased with the 6 who decided not to sign a contract with his new club and decided to go elsewhere.
That was clearly possible because a, with the club failing their contracts were no longer valid and b, that also meant their registration reverted to the association.
So they could agree a contract with any club they wanted, and their registration would automatically be passed to that club.
Homunculus 5th November 2020 at 16:53
TUPE was one of my favourite Rangers / The Rangers pieces of nonsense Charles Green came up with.
……………..
The thing with TUPE, the players who walked away were criticised by Green ( water of a ducks back to the players who walked away)
But when Sandy Jardine accused the players who were aiming to leave Ibrox for free of greed after they refused to transfer their contracts to Charles Green’s newco.
Never sat right with me how some players who walked away were welcomed for turning up at ibrox years later.
A Giant of a man in the ibrox fans eyes, and so critical of the ones who walked.I don’t think he would have welcomed the players who turned up years later.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9359682/Rangers-in-crisis-Sandy-Jardine-blasts-greedy-wantaways-as-John-Fleck-and-Juan-Manuel-Ortiz-look-to-leave.html
Cluster One
A Giant of a man in the ibrox fans eyes, and so critical of the ones who walked.I don’t think he would have welcomed the players who turned up years later.
they players left a club that had died,what annoys me is that they knew it died,left and then signed for sevco and insisted it was the same club that they said was no more,where is the journalists ti pull them up over this…i know i know
Prompted by the earlier references to 'playing for a plc', I had a wee refresher look at the genesis of the Big Lie.
Those already familiar with the detail may talk among themselves while I re-state the simple facts for the benefit of new readers of the sfm.scot blog and/or persons who, unpaid as PR people for RIFC plc, might actually not know the facts.
The indisputable facts are these:
The football club founded by the 4 Young Men on Glasgow Green in 1872 as The Rangers Football club was incorporated as The Rangers Football Club Ltd on 27 May 1899 , registered with Companies House under number 4276.
It was re-registered , keeping the same number 4276, as a Public Limited Company and changing its name to The Rangers Football Club plc on 31 March 1982.
This company ,number 4276 ,was, of course, the entity that owned the share in a football league, and on that account was a member of the SFA and permitted to play in the professional game.
It went into Administration (ruined by the vaulting ambition of SDM, its majority shareholder) and while in Administration changed its name to RFC 2012 but, of course could not change its number, 4276.
On 31 October 2012 Lord Hodge ordered that the entity bearing company number 4276 be wound up, appointing BDO as Liquidators. The entity that bore number 4276 was, of course, the football club Rangers of 1872.
Turning to the new creations, we find that TRFC , the football club, started life as SevcoScotland .
SevcoScotland was incorporated , came into being, on 29 May 2012, with the number 425159.
It changed its name to The Rangers Football Club Ltd on 31 July 2012, but had to keep the same CH number-425159.[ And there was a question to be asked as to why that new entity was not seen to have been in breach of the provisions of the Companies Act 2006 by calling itself by the very same name as an existing company which is in Liquidation but still legally 'existing'. I feel a letter coming on!]
There is absolutely no legal way that TRFC is a continuation of the club founded in 1872. (and for an IPO Prospectus that appears to claim otherwise, that might be a problem)
(and the Trump-like ass-hole of a QC who , like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, seemed to believe in ectoplasm, the essence , the 'what-it's-all-about-ness' of a football club that died being transferred into a newly created being may go hang! God grant that he may never be elevated to the Bench)
The SFA is a lying, cheating governance body , it must be concluded, in having struck a deal with CG under which it sold the soul of Sporting Integrity and agreed ( under secret 'blood oath' of confidentiality!) to allow a new club to claim entitlement to the sporting honours etc of a club that was in front of their very eyes lying in the death grip of Liquidation even as their poisonous pens were signing the filthy 5-Way Agreement.
I have no wish to see Scottish Football as a whole collapse on account of covid-19.
But there is no club that has not at least acquiesced in the Big Lie, albeit with varying degrees of culpability. There will be , and are, clubs who shared the view of the late and much honoured and respected Turnbull Hutton who told it as it was, but for variable understandable reasons did not feel like making martyrs of themselves in the bullying culture of Scottish football business.
But then again, perhaps 'martyrdom' is sometimes required for the sake of truth.
So, perhaps, there would be some kind of just retribution for wrongdoing if covid-19 kills them.
Tell the truth, and shame the devil is maybe the wisest counsel in the end.
[ on a lighter note, can I say that at about two o'clock this afternoon I was 'asked' by Mrs C to give the grass a cut. I did so, because it was a beautiful afternoon, slightly chilly, but with the sun shining in a blue sky.
Serendipity number one: Just after I got the mower plugged in in the garage and had come out into the ten by ten square yards of grass of the back garden, I heard the sound of geese. I looked up , and there above was a skein of geese in beautiful geometric V-shape, heading east of North!
Now, there must be somebody on the blog who knows about these things. Why would geese be flying north at this time of year as opposed to south?
Serendipity number two: About an hour later what did I hear and see in the sky but a delta-winged aeroplane , flying due east but maybe too high to be on the regular course which sees them banking to the north and west to come into an approach to Edinburgh airport.
Those two little serendipities fairly cheered me up.
Life is about more than cheating sports governance bodies, or club Boards, none of whose members will, I guarantee, sleep as happily as I, easy with their conscience and unworried about their finances.]
John Clark, thanks for that post, which I have copied for future reference.
Even the denier RC can comprehend those facts.
As to the geese, if my memory serves me right, they fly north to a special feeding
place , get a right good fill and then they are on their way for the winter.
As I am “ on” I will take the bait about jambo.
I just can’t understand where he is coming from as regards his 2012 statement.
Does he not go to court regularly for cases pertaining to that time?
Sometimes I do wonder where he is coming from.
I must say I have the very highest opinion of him as regards his court, financial expertise.
I think he is wrong just to say let’s move on. In my opinion a lie is a lie and I for one will
state that fact until hell freezes over. Cheats fc must be held to account. The disgusting BBC
and the so called sports reporters too.
Something to break the monotony next week
“LORD TYRE – T Sadler, Clerk
Wednesday 11th November
By Order
A54/19 Charles Green v The Chief Constable of Police Scotland &c …”
NB No access code for virtual hearing yet provided
John Clark 6th November 2020 at 13:12
Something to break the monotony next week
“LORD TYRE – T Sadler, Clerk
Wednesday 11th November By Order A54/19 Charles Green v The Chief Constable of Police Scotland &c …”
==========
Lord Tyre will have to tread carefully with the polis!
(Bet he's never heard that one?
).
And I read recently that the SFA is considering redundancies.
IMO, the SFA doesn't need an unqualified, £300K+ p.a. CEO.
That must equate to c.10 Hampden 'worker' jobs.
And what about President Petrie?
Does anybody know his salary?
He's not like previous Presidents, but much more hands on and more like a CEO. Can't imagine Petrie is paid the same rate as his predecessor Macrae for example?
StevieBC 6th November 2020 at 16:33
And I read recently that the SFA is considering redundancies.
……………
Is the compliance officer one of them? Not one person from ibrox has been cautioned for bringing the game into disrepute early this year.
John Clark 6th November 2020 at 13:12
Something to break the monotony next week
“LORD TYRE – T Sadler, Clerk
Wednesday 11th November
By Order
A54/19 Charles Green v The Chief Constable of Police Scotland &c …”
NB No access code for virtual hearing yet provided
…………………….
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49289188
£20Mill charles is looking for.
Has anyone worked out just how much the ibrox debacle has cost the tax payer, and just how much the ibrox debacle have gone through in their 8 year history trying to keep the show on the road. And just how much the ibrox debacle has cost the whole of the game in scotland.
Was the cost worth the effort SFA? Just how much would have been saved to the game in the summer of 2012 if the SFA had just said NO?
Sorry to be a wee bit tardy in raising this minor issue – I blame the US elections. However the recent share issue doesn’t quite add up – literally. The previous statement of capital dated 5th October says the total number allotted is 302,881,982 and the recent statement dated 3rd November says they allotted a further 19,314,931 to give a new total of 322,196,912. Well what caught my eye is just the last digit of each number. We start with 2 and add 1 and the answer is 2 – not when I went to skule!
Now I realise that all this high finance is above my pay grade – but I can coont.
Cluster One 6th November 2020 at 17:34
'.. And just how much the ibrox debacle has cost the whole of the game in scotland?'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
It cost the game its very soul, Cluster One, its very soul.
No one now, perhaps especially RIFC plc ,who benefited most from the governance bodies' readiness to lie, can believe that the SFA is capable of fundamental honesty and true sporting integrity?
What may be said of the pronounced unwillingness of the SPFL clubs to give their Board powers to act vis-a-vis covid-19 situations can certainly be said also of the general body of the SFA membership.
We all know from our personal working lives that even if you benefit from the cheating of your boss, you'll know the measure of the man- namely, that he is a man without personal honour or integrity, who is just as likely to act against you deceitfully as he acted for you.
Giovanni 6th November 2020 at 18:23
'..the recent share issue doesn’t quite add up – literally..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Good spot, Giovanni. Proof positive that Companies House mean it when they say they don't 'verify the accuracy of the information filed'!
I wonder who in Ibrox actually keys in the info on the SH01and doesn't have someone check it before he presses 'send'?
On the subject of sports cheating:
"A four-day hearing in a landmark legal case that could strip Russia of its identity at the next two Olympic Games and four years of world championships opened on Monday"
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-sports-court-opens-four-day-hearing-in-russian-doping-case/
"""""
Lausanne, 5 November 2020 – The hearing in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) arbitration procedure between the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) and the Russian Anti-Doping Agency (RUSADA) took place, as scheduled, from 2-5 November 2020.
In light of the travel restrictions and sanitary measures in place in Switzerland and in the Canton of Vaud due to the COVID-19 pandemic, the hearing took place in a mixed format with the majority of participants joining via video link.
The Arbitral Panel in charge of the arbitration will now deliberate and prepare the Arbitral Award containing its decision. While it is difficult to predict exactly how long this process will take, it is anticipated that the Arbitral Award will be notified to the parties by the end of this year.
Once the exact date is known, CAS will publish a short note on its website to advise when and how the decision will be announced."
https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Media_Release_6689_posthearing.pdf
_________
Sport is sport, and cheating to win is not 'sport'.
In the case of SDM's Rangers the cheating was established as fact ( even if no lying cheating bast.rd has ever (so far) been held to account and appropriately punished)
We await the decision on whether the Russians cheated.
Is Russia too influential to be found guilty? Too big to be challenged or found guilty?
Has the the Arbitral panel had the benefit of 'Brysonism'? Or LNS views that purchasing the services of sportsmen ranked among the best in Europe does not give any advantage to the sports club that does so?
I'm smiling to myself as I recall the whole bloody nonsense of the saga of the death of a cheating football club , the denial of that death by the governance body of Scottish Football and the construction of the most ludicrous lie that a new club created in 2012 is actually 140 years older.
Honest to God!
Even the Russians (or, to be topical, the 'Donald') wouldn't hope that such a lie would wash!
John Clark 6th November 2020 at 00:44
In a recent conversation on Twitter @Jas72Boyd quoted the following excerpt as "uncontested legal opinion" of the continuation of the club (sic)
"[21] The Rangers Football Club Plc ceased to be the owner and operator of a football team in consequence of the sale to SEVCO Scotland Limited by its administrators on 14 June 2012 of substantially the whole of its business and undertaking, including Rangers Football Club. Article 6 of the Articles of Association of the SPL provides:
”a share may only be issued, allotted, transferred to or held by a person who is the owner and operator of a club and if a member shall cease to be the owner and operator of a club then such member shall cease to be entitled to hold a share”.
The share in the SPL Limited previously owned by The Rangers Football Club Plc was not transferred to SEVCO Scotland Limited, the new owner and operator of The Rangers Football Club Plc. Dundee Football Club was transferred a share in the SPL, and played in the SPL in the 2012/2013 season.
[22] In respect of the 2012/2013 season, Rangers Football Club played in the third division of the SFL."
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=c72b2da7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
OPINION OF LORD BANNATYNE In the cause ALBERT IAN KINLOCH (AP) Pursuer against CORAL RACING LIMITED
sannoffymesssoitizz,
We cannot deny – it is there within the rules in black and white – that the fiction of a football club being a distinct entity from the corporate entity is enshrined in the constitution of the SFA and SPFL.
ONCE this fiction is adopted, the continuation of Rangers FC 1872 is a given. Allow the conjuring trick of separating "club" from company, the sleight of hand of sevco = Rangers FC is a fait accompli.
Moaning about the effect whilst paying no heed to the cause is futile in my opinion.
Tell me this: what challenge has been made to this model in preposterousness that is at the heart of the football rulebook in Scotland?
What challenge – financially backed and in the courts as that is where this change must be made, the other member clubs will never bother – has been made against the fiction?
8 YEARS since we saw a conjuring trick played out in front of our very eyes by the authorities, using the tools their own rulebook gave them.
What legal challenge has been made to those rules?
sannoffymesssoitizz 7th November 2020 at 09:18
Jas will only post what he wants you to read.
I am satisfied that what did not happen was that the SPL moved or demoted rangers to a lower division. rangers ended up in a lower division by the entry into a contract that allowed them to join the SFL in the third division.
Best to ignore him and his delusion, otherwise you could end up being his lap dog
brian_d84 7th November 2020 at 09:55
"..the fiction of a football club being a distinct entity from the corporate entity is enshrined in the constitution of the SFA and SPFL.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I give you this, brian_d84:
At a general meeting of the SPL on 22 October 2012, a resolution was passed making some amendments to the Articles of Association.
Article 14 was deleted in its entirety and replaced by this:
" Art 14. If a member shall
i) cease to be entitled to hold a share
or
ii) take, suffer or be subject to an Insolvency event, then that member or its manager, interim manager, receiver, administrative receiver, judicial factor, administrator, provisional liquidator, interim liquidator, or the equivalent in office or any other person entitled to the Share shall, on receiving notice in writing from the Board …….transfer the Share held by it or any of them to such other person as the Board shall direct…. and the club owned and operated by such member shall…cease to be a member of the League and the club owned and operated by the transferee shall on the transfer of the Share being registered become a member of the League in its place."
That amendment took effect on 22 October 2012. Rangers Football Club plc entered Liquidation nine days later( under the new name of RFC 2012 plc given to it by CG to try to hide the fact that it was Rangers Football Club of 1872 that had been liquidated)
It is so abundantly plain that it was the football club that ceased to be a member of the League that it is difficult not to conclude that those who deny that fact are, if they are not mentally ill, deliberately blinding themselves, and trying to blind others, to the truth, with all the ridiculous nonsense about holding companies , or RFC of 1872 merely having changed ownership, and SevcoScotland /TRFC being RFC of 1872.
SevcoScotland did not exist as a legal entity before it was incorporated on 29 May 2012.
It did not become a football club until it was admitted into the SFL on 13 July 2012.
Rangers Football Club plc still was a shareholder member of the SPL on 30 October 2012.
The really distressing thing is that so many in Football governance and the print press and the BBC have made whores of themselves in generating the bast.rd progeny known as the Big Lie.
Thanks for your response at 12:47 on 7th November 2020 Cluster One
I posted this earlier because it was the first time I’d come across this argument and I’d not taken much interest in the case in question.
I can assure you that as a former HMRC Company Compliance Investigation Officer, I’m nobody’s lap dog and I was not at all taken in by his comments, especially as the following excerpt from Lord Bannatyne’s Decision (that I’ve highlighted in bold type) is clearly not credible.
“The share in the SPL Limited previously owned by The Rangers Football Club Plc was not transferred to SEVCO Scotland Limited, the new owner and operator of The Rangers Football Club Plc.!!!
Thanks for response at 09:55 on 7th November 2020 brian_d84
As far as I recall Scots' Law states that the legal identity of company and company is indivisible, regardless of anything in the Constitution and/or Articles of Association of a members' organisation, which in the case of the SFA and SPL/SPFL are in reality cabals.
The fact that none of the other members of these cabals has challenged these amendments is not surprising, but is still an utter disgrace.
sannoffymesssoitizz 7th November 2020 at 19:05
Thanks for your response at 12:47 on 7th November 2020 Cluster One
I posted this earlier because it was the first time I’d come across this argument and I’d not taken much interest in the case in question.
…………………
Every few weeks jas pops up on twitter with this. selects the parts he wants to select, and as you pointed out leaves out the parts he wants. sometimes he changes club to team to suit a narrative. In the end when he is defeated he changes the subject or blocks for a time, then pops up a few weeks later thinking everyone has forgotten.
Cluster One
Never saw it as a Three Card Monte variation. But I suppose it is.
John Clark 7th November 2020 at 13:25
At a general meeting of the SPL on 22 October 2012, a resolution was passed making some amendments to the Articles of Association.
…………….
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1325189202045145089/photo/1
Some New rules also for that day
sannoffymesssoitizz 7th November 2020 at 19:05
".especially as the following excerpt from Lord Bannatyne’s Decision (that I’ve highlighted in bold type) is clearly not credible. .."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
That bit of Lord Bannatyne's judgment is just absolute, self-contradictory mince in what it says about the ownership merely changing.
I thought so at the time, and still think so.
But of course, we have to remember that Lord B was dealing with the simple question of whether a club merely named as 'Rangers' on a betting slip and playing in the SPL at the time was 'relegated' to the third division under SPL rules.
He must have sweated blood,poor man, trying to find ways of saying that the 'Rangers' of the betting slip was not actually the 'Rangers' that were no longer in the SPL and that it was a wholly different football club (brand new) that was playing in the 3rd division, and therefore that the punter had lost his bet!
His judgment was correct in the end of course: RFC plc had ceased to be a member of the SPL, and was not in existence to be able to be relegated!
The 'Rangers' of the betting slip was the SevcoScotland /TRFC taking up for the first time a place in Scottish Professional football.
Mr Kinloch quite correctly lost the case.
But I sympathetically think that Lord B , poor man, had suffered a wee wobbly in not seeing straight off that RFC plc had not in fact been sold to CG, even when he saw clearly that CG had not become the owner of a share in the SPL.
I, at this time of night, shake my head and, as it happens even as I type, take the hand of Mrs C who has just come in to the kitchen and give it the usual affectionate squeeze, without hurting her swollen knuckle.
John C
To be fair, the Trumpian proportions of misinformation via the press and the khazi paralegals on social media would confuse the most learned of m’luds.
In the circumstances, Lord B deserves a pass.
John
That bit of Lord Bannatyne’s judgment is just absolute, self-contradictory mince in what it says about the ownership merely changing.
======%%%======
ANY governing body from the SPFL to SFA to UEFA to Government to the Legal system and not forgetting YOUR own football clubs say one thing, You and a few other rival football fans have a different opinion/interpretation, which of course, you have every right to have and express.
However, bottomline is that no-one is going to change their opinion and out in the real world, there isn’t even a debate.
===
On another theme that Homunculas touched upon a couple of pages ago. The continuation or otherwise of Neil Lennon as Celtic manager is a question that I think may soon be resolved. I’d obviously like him to stay but going by what he has been saying to the media about video analysis (Daily Record), I think it’s starting to look as though he himself wants out, but for Peter to write him a large cheque on the way out the door.
My prediction (outside bet) is that today, win or lose, is the last game Neil ever manages a professional football team. Perhaps it’s time in life to prioritise his own health.
I don’t know when the PLC have their AGM or it’s even allowed at present but Peter may have to look out his deflector shield for it. He may even give Res12er’s a chance to make a headline, but little more.
Whilst nothing changes or improves at Hampden,
then nobody is going to change their opinion about the levels of honesty and integrity in the Scottish game.
That is the 'gift' that Ibrox has bestowed on the game since 2012: a permanent cloud hanging over the game.
In the real world the debate about The Rangers lying about being Rangers FC is actually going to peak in 2022, IMO.
As much as The Rangers tries to reinforce the '150 years' deception, there will be equally loud cries of derision from supporters of all the other clubs – who played the game by the rules.
StevieBC 8th November 2020 at 11:18
I don't think there will be "…equally loud cries of derision from supporters of all the other clubs …"
Speaking only for myself, I am content in the fact that there is a clear trail from the entity that was formed all those years ago to the one which is being liquidated. It may have changed the type of legal entity it was but it is definitely the same entity, it still exists, albeit it is currently being liquidated.
I am also content that, whilst various organisation may have said various things with regards it's status their actions made it clear that they considered the new club just that. For example if it was the same club which was second in a league why did it have to apply to join that same league the following season. Why did it have to apply to join a different league instead, and be place in the bottom division of that league. The simple reason is that it was newly formed, it wasn't a member of a league or an association.
It may be important to supporters of the new club that they continue pretending they support the old one, the one they allowed to die. It's not that important to me, I know the truth, no matter what lies other people try to propagate.
Paddy Malarkey
I’m still stuck at how 1873 became 1872. I’m sure it wasn’t because it brought a money spinning 140th forward by a year in a time of penury. I’ve been told it’s because they ‘discovered’ a first game a year earlier than they thought. That seems a bit slipshod, history and chronology-wise. I wonder if there any other historical anomalies surrounding club/company/ethereal entity? ???
Big Pink
According to Wiki , founded March , 1872 , and played their first match v Callander ( 0-0 ) in May , 1872 at Flesher's Haugh . There's not a lot on the new club's website .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Rangers_F.C.#:~:text=Rangers%20Football%20Club%2C%20formed%20in%20March%201872%2C%20are,in%20the%20world%2C%20winning%20115%20trophies%20in%20total.
reasonablechap 8th November 2020 at 08:51
"..ANY governing body from the SPFL to SFA to UEFA to Government to the Legal system and not forgetting YOUR own football clubs say one thing,.."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
And that "one thing" is, of course, an untruth!
Man dear, you're kind of like the Donald, inhabiting a self-constructed world that has nothing to do with truth.
I've mentioned Galileo Galilei a couple of times before, and I'll mention him again: it did not matter that he was disbelieved ( and 'prosecuted') when he asserted that the earth moves round the sun: he was right, and all the disbelieving in the world-whether by Pope, Emperor, King(ha!) or the besmocked yokels in the equivalent of the Louden Tavern in the Glasgow of the early 17th century, could not and did not change that fact!
Rangers football club founded in 1872 ceased to be entitled to participate in Scottish Football when it ceased to be a shareholder of the SPL and, in consequence, ceased to be entitled to membership of the SFA.
Your personal inability to accept that fact is a matter of indifference to me- you can , if you like, pretend to be Bill Struth ,or one of the Four Young men of Glasgow Green, and I'll shake your hand and buy you a good-humoured pint as you recount your history.
It's when influential business men ( one or two of whom have been found not to be entirely the clean potato) get involved in distortion of truth for financial reasons that untruth begins to matter.
And it's when a sports governance body engages in supporting and fostering a ridiculous sporting untruth that integrity is lost, and the game's a bogey!
Big Pink 8th November 2020 at 16:55
"…..I’m sure it wasn’t because it brought a money spinning 140th forward by a year in a time of penury.."
""""""""""""""""""""""""
To which I reply by referring you to my post at 22.06, with the observation that if they can lie about TRFC not being a new football club created in 2012 in the face of abundant and easily accessible evidence to the contrary, lying about an event which occurred 139/140 years ago would be a scoosh!
But, fairmindedly, there might be some kind of evidence ( a contemporary press report, somebody's personal diary entry, a copy of a contemporary letter to a relative, a note of interest in the minutes of a contemporary lodge meeting, or in the City archives ( Parks department) .or whatever.
To make the claim is easy. To substantiate the claim is perhaps not quite so easy-especially when the claimant is already living a lie!
If there is any evidence to support the claim ( and there may well be) it would be interesting to see it!
I had sat down tonight to post about ‘reporting restrictions’ in some ‘saga’ related cases, but got caught up in the posts with RC and the posts about the date of foundation of Rangers FC. I’ve said my piece about that.
What I had wanted to mention is that I went up into my attic ( wherein is my ‘library’) earlier today to hunt out my dad’s Army Pay Book and the letter the padre in Italy wrote to my mammy to say that ‘ your husband has been a bit wounded’ ( leg blown off on Monte Cairo!) but ‘is in good spirits’.( I was minded to pursue a gap between him being in the military hospital in Chester and being transferred to Erskine Hospital)
Anyway, my bundle of notebooks in which I scribbled my notes of the various ‘saga related ‘ hearings I attended is up there in the attic.
I came down the ladder with one of those notebooks. I have it here in front of me.
The first case in it: 6 May 2014.
‘Imran Ahmad v The Rangers Football Club’, before Lord Armstrong. Mr McBrearty QC, for Ahmad, Mr Somers QC, for TRFC.
I’ve struggled very hard to decipher my scribbles ( I think I must have been trying not to be seen taking notes)
I can see that it was about the Sheikh wanting £500 000 of RIFC plc’s money to be ring-fenced for him in case they went bust.
The Sheikh claimed that CG signed a contract under which the Sheikh was due that sum.( Section 15F of the Act of 1987 was cited, according to my note)
What I wasn’t sure about was whether that case was under ‘reporting restrictions’
I looked at the current list of such cases shown on the Court of Session website but I don’t see it.
I don’t see it on the ‘Court of Session judgments’ pages as being a reported case, nor is it to be found on Baillii as a reported case [ cases are reported only if there is some special feature of general legal or public interest significance]
Can I conclude that I am free to put my notes on the blog without being in contempt of Court?
Not that there is anything terribly exciting to report: just the general line of the arguments( as I understood them) put forward by Counsel for each party.
My post of 00.16 above: it is the Debtor’s (Scotland) Act 1987 that was referred to.
And it’s away past my bedtime.
Goodnight all.
John
Man dear, you’re kind of like the Donald, inhabiting a self-constructed world that has nothing to do with truth.
=====%%%=====
First time I’ve been compared to Donald Trump or a political leader of any kind
I’m more accustomed to it being James Traynor (on here) or Seumas Milne (elsewhere) !!
One thing that stuck me about Trump was the way he managed to attack others, citing pretty much what he had done or was doing himself. Ironic perhaps, but I think you do the same above.
You use the phrase “self-constructed world”, it is plain wrong.
What we have is a legal interpretation of the question at hand that is accepted by the footballing authorities, the justice system, the football clubs and so on. It’s the black and white reality, period.
You and others on here strongly disagree, as you have every right to… but the phrase (self-)constructed world would be much more applicable to the relatively small band of followers to your version of the unofficial truth. You construct your truth (legal interpretation) but it has little to do with the actual official interpretation (at all levels) and therefore reality.
You can construct a world where we can all choose to ignore what X authority or government put forward, disregard the legal system and their take and go against the very institutions (clubs) that you support…….but you’d be looking at a true chaos.
Perhaps you can write to clubs who were behind Rangers on their 10 year rankings (which included points gained prior to 2012) and therefore received less prize money from the UEFA pot as a result. It would be a waste of time,…. ask yourself why?
sannoffymesssoitizz 7th November 2020 at 09:18
In a recent conversation on Twitter @Jas72Boyd quoted the following excerpt as "uncontested legal opinion" of the continuation of the club (sic)
"[21] The Rangers Football Club Plc ceased to be the owner and operator of a football team in consequence of the sale to SEVCO Scotland Limited by its administrators on 14 June 2012 of substantially the whole of its business and undertaking, including Rangers Football Club. Article 6 of the Articles of Association of the SPL provides:
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
This (my highlighted piece) is surely bunkum!
The whole of a business would surely include the ALL of the debts and liabilities of said business?? Or else it is not "whole".
Except we know the schemers and governance charlatans only passed on the football debts as they knew fine well the ruse would be challenged by footballing creditors with unpaid debts. Their silence was bought by this slight of hand, allowing football to continue in the newly formed twilight zone of Scottish Football.
Why none of the other creditors among the 273 called this out is baffling, unless of course they were "staunch" fans themselves, or if not, made aware of the far reaching tentacles of the establishment club, (including NI desperados) which could finish their business entirely, or worse…….
normanbatesmumfc
"…the whole of its business and undertaking…"
====
Yes, that factual error did jump off the screen!
And I guess the current restrictions gives TRFC a break from "You're not Rangers Anymore!" chants from away supporters.
Any reasonable person would have even less respect for the current iteration of 'Rangers' than the original version, IMO.
normanbatesmumfc 9th November 2020 at 11:13
Except we know the schemers and governance charlatans only passed on the football debts as they knew fine well the ruse would be challenged by footballing creditors with unpaid debts. Their silence was bought by this slight of hand, allowing football to continue in the newly formed twilight zone of Scottish Football.
Why none of the other creditors among the 273 called this out is baffling,
…………………………
In a statement, BDO said: “The joint liquidators, following extensive deliberations with their professional advisors and the liquidation committee, have taken the decision to issue a claim against the former Rangers’ administrators Paul Clark and David Whitehouse, of Duff & Phelps.
“During the course of the liquidation, questions have arisen regarding the strategy previously adopted by the former administrators, which have not, to date, been adequately answered.
“In seeking clarity, the joint liquidators have been left with no other option but to pursue the matter via the Scottish Court. The joint liquidators look forward to the resolution of this matter.”
BDO added: “The joint liquidators consider that the former joint administrators failed to take actions which would have reduced costs during the administration period and realised additional value from the company’s assets over and above that obtained from the sale of the business and assets to Sevco.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-38896812
……………..
They may find something. Has this legal action ever came to anything?
NBMA
Why none of the other creditors among the 273 called this out is baffling…
====%%====
You answer yourself.
Or as you even (XX%? jokingly) suggest, perhaps the creditors are all in on the sting.
—-
I said last week that I would leave you guys to the OC/NC thread but the comparison to Trump surprised me !!
I'll try and not engage any further in the 8 year old subject/ circle to no-where. You'll be happier in a place where everyone nods their heads in agreement, whilst trying to forget the real world and I note still next to no comment on Easyjambo's stance, especially in the case of John Clark. Better not to let uncomfortable stuff get in the way.
Am I reading this correctly?
Do we really have a discussion prompted by @Jas72Boyd on Twitter? A discussion which includes the views of the reasonablechap on the street?
A glaring omission from the discussion is the fact (and I mean fact as opposed to opinion) that @Jas72Boyd and reasonablechap are the same person.
Many alternative names have been used but a good rule of thumb is that if someone is spouting pish it's probably Spoutpish.
reasonablechap 9th November 2020 at 14:51
I’ll try and not engage any further in the 8 year old subject/ circle to no-where. You’ll be happier in a place where everyone nods their heads in agreement, whilst trying to forget the real world and I note still next to no comment on Easyjambo’s stance, especially in the case of John Clark. Better not to let uncomfortable stuff get in the way.
You obviously believe that EJ’s parting shot (not his first and hopefully not his last) amounts to a damascene conversion on his part and have frequently tried to elicit a response from someone in the Celtic “prism” as you call it. I have reproduced below (in bold italics) the final, and important, part of EJ’s post and give my non Celtic interpretation:
“No matter how many times the blog returns to the events of 8-10 years ago, no-one in the football authorities or in the SMSM is listening, nor are they likely to change their mind now.
I believe that it is now time to move on. Not to forget what happened, but to move on all the same.
That is what I plan to do.”
In no way do I interpret that as meaning the he has in any way changed his view. My take on it is that he has concluded that the authorities and media are not going to change their stance so it is pointless banging on about it. I kind of lean toward that myself in that I can’t see them changing their mind (in the case of the media, again) but cannot bring myself to accept that the BIG LIE has won. That is a step too far for me. JC and others on the other hand stoically believe that the BL will eventually be exposed.
Bordersdon
"In no way do I interpret that as meaning the he has in any way changed his view."
====%%%====
Look again……" …I believe that it is NOW time to move on. …"
I fully realise that no-one on here will fundamentally change their view on events. Wrt EJ, as I said in previous posts, it was his personal decision to move-on that I was referring to.
reasonablechap 9th November 2020 at 16:56
——————–???————————————–
I think I explained my interpretation and the context of EJ’s “moving on”.
reasonablechap 9th November 2020 at 09:59
"
You and others on here strongly disagree, as you have every right to… but the phrase (self-)constructed world would be much more applicable to the relatively small band of followers to your version of the unofficial truth.
You construct your truth (legal interpretation) but it has little to do with the actual official interpretation (at all levels) and therefore reality. You can construct a world where we can all choose to ignore what X authority or government put forward, disregard the legal system and their take and go against the very institutions (clubs) that you support…….but you’d be looking at a true chaos."
Lets look at the legal definition then and here’s one Donald who speaks for the legal system and puts to bed your argument. Liquidation means liquidation of the entity (Donald’s word) that was Rangers Football Club 1872 Incorporated and changed to Sevco 2012,
The switcheroo required to take the pennies of the gullibears, and soothe what we saw the grief and death in the family statements outside Ibrox and the scribes with the 140 years history gone in 8 minutes. We were there to witness it, we saw the trial of the fall guy in Glasgow and the clearing of his name and witnessed the biggest stich up and shame brought to Scottish Football by a knighted chairman who was hell bent on flucking the tax man, the very same organisation employed by the Queen who gave him his title. Below is the real Donald are you calling him a liar?
"Former Ibrox vice chairman Donald Findlay says Rangers are a 'new entity' which must establish 'its own history and tradition'
By Stephen Mcgowan for MailOnline
Published: 10:25, 1 November 2014 | Updated: 10:54, 1 November 2014
Donald Findlay QC should be comfortable in the midst of David Somers and co. He was once one of them. Vice-chairman of the company indeed.
But these days he neither recognises the faces or names of the Rangers board. Or, indeed, the 'new entity' – his words – that they represent.
.
'It is a different club,' he tells Sportsmail bluntly. 'They may play at Ibrox and they may play sometimes in royal blue jerseys.
'To me this is a new Rangers which has to establish its own history and tradition.
But it's not the Rangers I know. To me, genuinely, it is a new entity.'
+5
In Rangers circles this kind of thing is heresy. When liquidation became inevitable Charles Green, the former Chief Executive, insisted vocally he had paid £5.5million for the assets and history of the oldco in May 2012. Recently, Livingston's programmed editor lost his job after wading into a contentious topic in a match programme.
'You can buy assets,' he concedes, 'but you can't buy history. You can't buy tradition. History and tradition are in the heart and in the mind. You can't buy that.
So is Donald wrong in his analysis and legal thinking concerning what was liquidated, was he wrong to state that the club was the same entity and in doing so meant that when liquidation came and with no unincorporated mechanism been used and no CVA what went was Rangers Fottball Club 1872 with a change of name merely applied before the tax man released the hounds and called it a day by putting this burden on society out of its misery.
Are you willing to challenge the findings of the newspapers and the court and challenge the words of the Donald(qc). |For to date not one so called loyal fan has stepped forward to challenge any of this, why would that be?
reasonablechap 9th November 2020 at 09:59
‘…What we have is a legal interpretation of the question at hand that is accepted by the footballing authorities, ..’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
No, we don’t.
What we have, with due respect to his Lordship, is the adoption of an actual error of fact by Lord Bannatyne when he made the observation that Rangers Football Club plc had been sold to a new owner.
It had not: the CG consortium did not buy the football club in its entirety: it bought (dirt cheap!) merely some of the significant assets of the distressed football club but did not clear the the bulk of the scandalous millions of pounds of debt necessary to pay all of its creditors and thus bring the club out of administration. In consequence the club entered Liquidation, lost its share in the SPL under Article 14 of the Articles of Association, and consequently lost its membership of the SFA.
(Incidentally, the question before the judge was not whether ‘TRFC ‘is Rangers Football Club of 1873/2(?) but whether a club ,called merely ‘Rangers’ on a betting slip, was playing in the third division on account of poor football performance ( ‘relegation’ under the rules of the League) when in the season before, a club named ‘Rangers Football Club’ had been playing in the SPL or on account of other reasons.
The judge no doubt relied on the submissions made by Counsel for Coral Racing Ltd as to the ‘facts of the case’, and Counsel no doubt relied on his briefing solicitors, who no doubt relied on the Football Authorities’ view. The Football Authorities of course had long before created and fostered the lie that RFC of 1873/2(?) had uniquely among Scottish football clubs which have entered Liquidation, somehow retained its share in the SPL and its membership of the SFA!
It is to be regretted (probably by no one more than Lord Bannatyne himself) that he did not advert to the fact that RFC of 1873/2(“) was in liquidation , not remotely involved or participating (whether well or badly) in Scottish football , and that TRFC was manifestly in the Third division because its life had only begun when it was admitted to that division as a new club, and it therefore could not possibly have been ‘relegated’ from a higher division.
The judge arrived at the right verdict but with a wobble in his reasons!
I’m pretty sure that his Lordship would not ever formally declare that a legal entity created in 2012 is the identical entity that had been created in 1873/2(?) when that earlier entity is in Liquidation, its major creditors still unpaid!
I hadn’t the resources at the time ( nor do I now) but if I had had, I would have explored the possibility of having Lord Bannatyne’s adoption of a factual error in his judgment raised in any appropriate and proper forum.
Can I just add that I am beholden to no one for what I say , or how I say it [usually respectfully and, I hope, never intentionally too hurtful to fellow-posters ] and that I have been and am enriched by almost every post and poster on this blog, in one way or another.
People have come and gone over the years and I miss their contributions of detailed knowledge of facts, or helpful references to ‘historic’ material , their jokes and one-liners (eg the very recent ‘Tyre tread’ reference).
And people will continue to come and go.
I will continue to take on every ‘denier’ who pops up to defend the SMSM, the BBC, the Scottish Football governance authorities, and I will do so not to bore people , but to make sure that new readers , or casual readers know the facts.
John Clark 9th November 2020 at 18:27
I always revert back to what people within football did, not what they said. There are a lot of simple questions and answers with regards that and they have been covered before, however for me the main ones remain.
If it was the same club that finished second in the SPL the previous season why was it not treated as such when the new season started.
Why did it have to apply to join the SPL if it was already part of that league.
On what basis was it refused entry.
Why did it have to apply to the SFL (a different league) and when allowed in why was it put in the lowest division.
Why was it not a member of the SFA, had to apply, and was granted a "conditional membership".
The SFA and the SPL treated Rangers in the same way they would have treated any other new club. That's what happened in the real World.
bigboab1916 9th November 2020 at 17:43
You and others on here strongly disagree, as you have every right to… but the phrase (self-)constructed world would be much more applicable to the relatively small band of followers to your version of the unofficial truth.
………………….
Now imagine if you will a world were a large gathering of people were told their club cheated the game for years, and the guy they thought that was bringing that success was doing it in a way not within the rules. Then imagine he got rid of it all for a pound. The new guy that they thought was going to carry on that success and do everything above board, turned out not to be the right guy either. Now imagine this large gathering of people thought the next guy to come along was the right guy this time.(Third time lucky and all that) Now imagine this large gathering of people stood by the third guy like they did the last two, they gave him his full backing, held red cards up against liquidation.Had a fund raiser,even called it a fighting fund. Now imagine this large gathering of people stood right behind the third guy and backed him even more when he promised he wanted a CVA to preserve that history.Now imagine how this large gathering of people felt when they realised they had backed another dud. What a red neck, how could they face the world, how embarrassing,what to do now.Now imagine this large gathering of people sick together and pretend the third guy they backed (and to try and save face) was a dud but they pretend they backed a winner, but the pretence has to fly in the face of everything they backed at the start when the third guy began to move in. They still get a red neck, they face the world, but the pretence covers the embarrassment.The more they pretend the third guy was a winner and all they wished for, the more they believe the embarrassment fades away.
But it must be a right red neck when others point out they backed three duds.So they (self-)constructed a world were they don’t want to live with that. Problem is, forever they must.
Homunculus 9th November 2020 at 21:28
'..The SFA and the SPL treated Rangers in the same way they would have treated any other new club. That's what happened in the real World'
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Indeed it was ( and I myself have fom time to time referred to the fact that at the beginning the Football authorities behaved properly.)
Then somehow the rot set in and the Big Lie was created, whether out of fear, greed, intimidation, corruption or whatever.
We have to get at the roots of that.
https://celticnoise.com/attachments/screenshot_2020-11-09-23-07-35-580-jpg.11959/
https://www.scottishconstructionnow.com/article/new-directors-share-company-success-at-jr-group
https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2019/03/trio-of-directors-for-construction-firm-jr-group/
Boab
Can’t open first link (no log-in).
Can you please elaborate on what I presume to be the latest conspiracy with the what would seem to be the Dallas family or a Craig Whyte, who seems to have undergone considerable cosmetic surgery.
When Andrew Dallas is the referee, Celtic almost always win (bar one 0-0 draw at St.Mirren). Rangers have dropped considerably more points (than Celtic), when AD is the ref for their games. The Grandmaster must be seething at his incompetence.
I’d also note that nothing was said (except a recent post on here by me) when Rangers didn’t get a League penalty in very nearly a year but when opposition defenders start to think basketball methods might be the way to defend, there is a outcry without mentioning the context of a barren year…..or that there seem to me to be generally more penalties being awarded in football this season. eg. Ferguson (Aberdeen) has scored more penalties.
Regarding the term I used and others have picked up on, ‘the real world’….
Another example where it could be employed could be Celtic and the League title for last season.
Some will say Celtic are on 8.75IAR but the real world has deemed it to be 9. However much rival supporters convince themselves of the former and that the omnishambolic awarding of a title means it shouldn’t fully count, I’m afraid it does. Any opportunities to lobby against the perception have now passed.
I think personally that the * should have it’s obvious place beside such an award but now accept how it is and get on with it.
Some talk of fans making a protest/noise when Rangers celebrate their 150th. If Celtic were to win 10IAR then some Rangers supporters will loudly point to 2019/20*.
Scottish Fitbaw, the Glasgow goldfish bowl, the Old Firm bickering, tribal rivalry, self-interest….Then, Now, Always….
ps. I guess the Real Real World is somewhere beyond that, especially now.
reasonablechap 10th November 2020 at 10:39
I think personally that the * should have it’s obvious place beside such an award but now accept how it is and get on with it.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Perhaps you have moved on/accepted it as you know fine well it was won on merit????
I would be happy to see an asterisk beside the award, (highlighting the season was called early), once the illegally won titles by the arch-cheats, (your original rangers club) have been stripped as should have been the minimum consequence of said cheating/lying/tax-withholding/obfuscation!!
normanbatesmumfc @ 11.44
Re RC
Adapted by me (stuff in brackets) from the urban Dictionary to describe – only imho ye ken- his ‘input’ to SFM:-
“Trolling is trying to get a rise out of someone …either through wisecracking (not), posting (predominantly) incorrect information, asking blatantly stupid questions, or other foolishness, and is meant to be funny (in a twisted sort of a way I guess)
It does have some social/entertainment value – but not much else.
The other definition is more succinct and perhaps accurate in this case.
“Being a pr**k on the internet because you can”
It's amusing to look again at the 'Rangers International Football Club IPO' [ that , in my opinion, was authorised by the FCA in breach of its statutory duty!) and see the misleading way language is used to hide the plain truth.
I give as an example what is said in SectionB.3 of the 'Summary' :
"RFCL [ed: that is, The Rangers Football Club Ltd] acquired the assets and business of the Club on 14 June 2012 from RFC 2012 plc and now operates the Club and other ancillary businesses. Immediately prior to Admission, the Company will acquire RFCL pursuant to the Share Exchange Agreement, which is conditional on the Placing Agreement becoming unconditional in all respects, save for Admission, and will be the holding company of the Rangers Group. It is the intention of the Directors and the Manager for the Club to return to top flight football as soon as possible…"
First of all, the Summary could not say (any more than could the Administrators! ) that Rangers Football Club plc had been purchased as an existing football club: the best they dared to say was that 'RFCL acquired the assets and business of the club..' then slip in the '.. and now operates the Club..' as if it had bought the Club!
Secondly, it keeps silent about the fact that the entity that acquired the assets was not on 14 June 2012 a football club, but a consortium named SevcoScotland.
Thirdly, the assets were bought from Rangers Football Club plc[In Administration] not from RFC 2012 plc, the name that was given to Rangers Football Club plc shortly before that club went into Liquidation, a change deliberately made so that official records would not show clearly that it was the 140(139?) year old 'Glasgow Rangers' that had in fact entered Liquidation and was no longer a member of football league or of the SFA
Fourthly, note the deliberate use of the word 'return' in the sentence 'It is the intention of the Directors and the Manager for the Club to return to top flight football as soon as possible…"
There are four misleading elements in that paragraph alone, which the FCA should never have allowed to be included.
It is an absolute affront to us all that the FCA, far from being a trustworthy regulator was at the very least inefficient to a degree absolutely unacceptable.
And it is even less acceptable that the authors of the IPO must themselves have been encouraged to write what they did in the knowledge that deceitful Football Governance in Scotland had and would again on request rubber-stamp the false claim that holding company of the new RIFC plc was none other than the Rangers FC of the 4 Young Men of Glasgow Green in 1873/ (2?)
There may be some question of the Donald's mental health that might explain his ridiculous propensity for fantasy.
There was no such excuse for those in Scottish Football governance in 2012 ,or now: they knew what they were doing and persist in betraying their office of trust.
Bad cess to them.
reasonablechap 10th November 2020 at 10:39
when Rangers celebrate their 150th.
What one would that be?
deceit
a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers (Proverbs 6:16-19)
“Moving on” means;
PLUS
‘reasonablechap 10th November 2020 at 10:39
I think personally that the * should have it’s obvious place beside such an award but now accept how it is and get on with it…’
#########################
Talking of asterisks, I feel that the (then) SPL were derelict not to place an * next to the team which finished second in the Premiership in season 2011-12.
The final standings can be seen here: https://spfl.co.uk/league/premiership/archive/299
That (and a short footnote detailing what befell the team) would have prevented much of the OC/NC debate.
Have we decided who played Brechin City on 29/07/12 yet?
reasonablechap 10th November 2020 at 10:39
Some will say Celtic are on 8.75IAR but the real world has deemed it to be 9. However much rival supporters convince themselves of the former.
…………….
If the same rival supporters whant to convince themselves of the former They lost Any opportunity to lobby against it when their board agreed it was 9 in a row.
StevieBC 10th November 2020 at 13:17
“Moving on” means;
……………..
Forget all those creditors the rangers football club left out of pocket.(Including the Ambulance service and hospitals) Forget all those poor debenture seat holders who thought they had a seat for life (God that must really hurt them the most trying to pretend it is the same club)or do this band of hearty supporters stear clear of that one?Forget the use of EBTs and the side letters and the trying to remove side letters. Forget that they forgot to even say sorry.
The lies and deceit
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/powerbrokers-have-known-of-rangers-ebts-for-years-1327563
The shenanigans which caused the collapse of Rangers are scandalous but, when you blow away myth and fantasy, an immense stretch of the imagination is required to declare Rangers cheated anyone. EBTs were not illegal in the 10 years Rangers used them and both the SFA and SPL were fully aware of them.
They were never hidden and always declared in the audited accounts under the term Remuneration Trust.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-ebt-row-sfa-snub-11130822
Rangers oldco were fined £250,000 by Lord Nimmo Smith for the deliberate non-disclosure of the EBT payments to players but, crucially, he decided there was no sporting advantage.The Nimmo Smith report said that while EBTs were not illegal, Rangers broke rules aimed at ensuring financial transparency in football by not disclosing them to the game’s governing bodies.
Jingso.Jimsie 10th November 2020 at 16:07
'…Have we decided who played Brechin City on 29/07/12 yet? "
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Who can forget this lying piece of nonsense from the perverted Governance bodies of Scottish Football?
"The Scottish Football League announced that agreement had been reached following weeks of discussions, releasing a statement on behalf of the three football authorities, while the Ibrox club also announced they had signed an agreement. The SFL, SFA and Scottish Premier League statement read: "We are pleased to confirm that agreement has been reached on all outstanding points relating to the transfer of the Scottish FA membership between Rangers FC (In Administration) and Sevco Scotland Ltd, who will be the new owners of The Rangers Football Club.
A conditional membership will be issued to Sevco Scotland Ltd today, allowing Sunday's Ramsdens Cup tie against Brechin City to go ahead."
from https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/jul/27/rangers-relaunched-brechin
(The 8th Circle of Dante's " Inferno "is reserved for liars and fraudsters, and, in my opinion, is not hot enough for the disgusting wretches!)
Was the rangers football club not liquidated?
bigboab1916 10th November 2020 at 16:44
……………
The same week we had charles Green calling the commission a mickey mouse event.Alistair johnstone claiming gers did not cheat. The BBC have got it in for rangers. The secret dossiers ( yes even back then we had dossier gate)Players who had EBTs claiming they had never heard of them ( they work in radio now). A share issue on the horizon to cover over a lot of news and a drop of registration embargo to top it all off
bigboab1916 10th November 2020 at 16:44
"..The lies and deceit.."
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Yes, indeed, bigboab!
In the extract to which you provide a helpful link, ( from the DR of 17 September 2012) James Traynor ( whose extraordinary reversal of view scarcely makes him the George Washington of reporters!) says
"EBTs were not illegal in the 10 years Rangers used them and both the SFA and SPL were fully aware of them."
In the accounts the reference to Trusts is :" The rangers Employee Benefit tust and Murray Group Management Ltd Remuneration trust were established to provide incentives to certain employees"
( see Accounts from 2001 )
Those entries hardly constitute the full picture!
Instead, they provide a damning indictment of the officers at the SFA in their failure either to explore what these trusts meant in the light of the wages bill or in their wilful choice not to investigate, and the connections between personnel in the SFA and previous employment with the then RFC plc.
The trouble with SDM's cheating , and with lying generally is that it causes others to cheat-either by not investigating out of sympathy with the lies or by covering undiclosed payments ( and side-letters) when the truth was known.
Oh, how 2012 seems just like yesterday as the liars wriggled and twisted and threatened and blustered!
None of them will go to their graves as men of honour, no matter how many more wretched years they live.
Saying EBTs were not illegal was like saying taking money out of a bank was not illegal.
If you take money which you are entitled to, under the rules, then it is not illegal.
If you take money you are not entitled to, by deception, that is an entirely different scenario.
Rangers did not use EBTs as they were intended, even if they had done it would not have worked.
The Supreme Court has made it quite clear, disguised remuneration does not allow the non-payment of tax on that remuneration. They did it in relation to the Rangers EBT case, it now applies to all disguised remuneration. Given that the judgement is from the highest Court in the UK anyone disagreeing with that position is just making noise.
Like I said even if Rangers had used EBTs as they were originally designed (discretionary non contractual payment) which they clearly failed to do, they still don't work.
Basically Rangers failed to properly implement a scheme designed to avoid tax, which doesn't work anyway.
bigboab1916 10th November 2020 at 16:44
The lies and deceit
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/powerbrokers-have-known-of-rangers-ebts-for-years-1327563
…………
Rangers shut them down when the law changed in 2010 and also at that time it was said the club had been operating a dual-contract system in relation to the EBT. The SFA contacted Rangers and asked for an explanation, which was given.
…………………
I believe craig whyte shut them down when he took over, later to claim in his book
club’s use of EBT’s in the David Murray era was “cheating” and the SFA were “clueless” in cracking down on it.
And at the craig whyte trial Dave King said EBTs were “possibly unlawful”
……………………..
This part you have to laugh.
SFA contacted Rangers and asked for an explanation, which was given.
SFA. Are you operating your EBTs in an unlawfull way?
Rangers. No.
SFA. Ok cheers.
JC @1732
“…the SFA… failure either to explore what these trusts meant in the light of the wages bill or in their wilful choice not to investigate, and the connections between personnel in the SFA and previous employment with the then RFC plc…”
=============
It’s amazing what details were simply brushed aside – because there were so many lies, secrecy, inconsistencies swirling around both Ibrox and Hampden around 2011 and 2012 in particular, it just got lost in the noise.
WRT personnel;
The ex-RFC Director, our old foe – and EBT recipient himself! – Campbell Ogilvie was both a VP and President at the SFA over a lengthy 12 year period: 2003 to 2015.
The ex-RFC player Gordon Smith was the ‘surprise’ SFA CEO President during this period too: 2007 to 2010. Afterwards he returned to Ibrox as a Director for Craig Whyte.
So, ‘conflict of interest’ or avoiding a perception of bias, or recruitment ‘diversity’ didn’t seem to apply to SFA senior positions.
The SFA CEO and [First] President who had obvious Rangers FC loyalties were both in position during the period 2007 to 2010.
Coincidentally, Murray decided to wind down the EBT’s at Ibrox by 2010… 🙁
And the more you look back, the more you remember incidents or stories which were simply ignored by the SMSM.
The ‘Motherwell Born Billionaire’ boll#x was just the start of the altered reality inhabited by Ibrox supporters, Hampden and the negligent SMSM.
That altered reality today involves an upcoming ‘150th’ anniversary – and ‘going for 55’.
Jingso.Jimsie 10th November 2020 at 16:07
‘…Have we decided who played Brechin City on 29/07/12 yet? ”
The words of the legally binding 5 way agreement that relate to that question:
“Pending Completion, the SFA confirm it has granted Sevco conditional Full Membership of the SFA to facilitate the playing of matches by Rangers FC for the period until midnight on 3rd August 2012. In the event that the transfer of the RFC Share to Dundee FC has not been registered by the SPL by that time, then this Agreement will automatically lapse and the arrangements set out herein will not come into effect; Sevco’s conditional Full Membership of the SFA will automatically lapse; and all player registrations held by the SFA will revert to RFC and Sevco’s interest will be cancelled.”
The above seems to conflict with the fact journalists were being briefed to refer to the club taking the field vs Brechin as “The Rangers”, not just Rangers. One of “the five” broke ranks perhaps?
Also we know Sevco had to effectively ask permission from Duff & Phelps to allow the “loan” of players for the Brechin game, given Sevco had none themselves.
Whole thing was a fudge.
Rangers: Kelty anger after testimonial is called off
Last updated on
23 July 201223 July 2012.From the section Football
Kelty Hearts have criticised the Scottish FA after the Fife juniors were forced to postpone a pre-season friendly against the new Rangers.
The Ibrox outfit were unable to play because the SFA has yet to approve the club’s membership.
“So a thanks must go to the SFA for having a negative impact on not only the top end of Scottish football but the lower end also,” said Kelty.
The testimonial game for an experienced Kely midfielder will be re-arranged.
Ally McCoist’s side have only played games behind closed doors at their Murray Park training ground as they are not licensed to play official fixtures.
They are due to play their first game of the season, against Brechin City in the Ramsdens Cup, on Saturday.
But they are still in negotiations with the SFA, Scottish Premier League and Scottish Football League about the conditions for membership after they were denied a place in the top flight and placed in Division Three.
How the media can face themselves in the morning as they get their uniform on and make ready for another shift in the press room.
Quite an onslaught !!
Time for me to leave the 2012 bubble and let you all agree with each other (but not be heard out in the real world).
I can only echo what Easyjambo was getting at. That SFM doesn’t achieve what it says on the tin because next to everything is viewed through the Blue Prism.
Basically, your war was lost and failure to take that on board, not only clouds your general take on more current events, it means some don’t even see some of them go by. I reckon John Clark could convert a discussion on Mongolian fine art into the familiar 10 paragraph delivery
I’m not saying you should change your opinion or even listen to me, perhaps look at Easyjambo, a practical, reasonable and as objective a fan as you’ll get. Even if it is only for a couple of seconds, before you go back to 2012.
One thing before I go and that we can agree on….
Good luck to Scotland on Thursday !!
Quick addition to the earlier post (half way down).
Basically, your war was lost (there were no winners) and failure…..
brian_d84 10th November 2020 at 20:59
And the more you look back, the more you remember incidents or stories which were simply ignored by the SMSM.
………………….
And the more you look back you see the pleading by charles Green the ibrox fan base Duff and phelps to get a CVA over the line to preserve that history.
Then Bang!
No CVA
Did not need it.charles Green pays less, the ibrox fan base are told to put away their red cards. Duff and phelps claim they were a success even though they could not bring the club out of administration. The SFA and SPL start bringing out 5 way agreements and conditional memberships and are happy to go along with the ride and collect their bonuses.
Only thing left is the poor fan base having to put up with the ridicule of pretending they never lost their debenture seats, they never held up red cards against liquidation, they never cried when they realised a CVA was not going to get over the line, they never hailed Green as a saviour, yet on this day could not look at the man.
The more you look back, what a Red neck for the ibrox fan base. Must be the reason they want to move on and never look back.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18863021.shameful-episode—lord-advocate-admits-malicious-prosecution-ex-rangers-boss-charles-green/?ref=twtrec
………………
How can we move on from the events of 2012 when the repercussions can still be felt on this day.
Is it safe to come out now? Has he really left the building? If so, he’ll soon be back in another iteration, just like the clubs playing out of Ibrox.
Perhaps after lecturing us on how we are failing to persuade the ‘real world’ of our message, Reasonable Chap’s off to get an irony by-pass, having failed to convert one solitary person to his flat-earthism during his frequent interventions on here.
To be fair though, he got one thing spot on when he said: “I’m not saying you should change your opinion or even listen to me”.
His penultimate post has me looking forward to John Clark’s evening post tonight, where apparently he’ll be discussing the parallels between Genghis Khan’s rampage through Asia and the football authorities’ bull in a China shop treatment of Rangers’ death, a story which he’s got off to a fine art.
reasonablechap 11th November 2020 at 08:29
"One thing before I go and that we can agree on….
Good luck to Scotland on Thursday !!"
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
There you go again, making false statements. I for one, do not wish good luck to Scotland on Thursday.
While trough-gorging, deliberately deceitful, morally bankrupt charlatans like Petrie, Doncaster et al continue to pollute the offices at Hampden, I only want to see failure for the national team, reflecting their incompetence. I mean no ill to the manager or players involved, but the very thought of Petrie's gravy-stained chin grinning at me as Scotland take the field at a major championships, turns my stomach.
C'mon Serbia!
reasonablechap 11th November 2020 at 08:29
Quite an onslaught !!
Time for me to leave the 2012 bubble and let you all agree with each other (but not be heard out in the real world).”
If you call going back to which will be in your case reading soothing stories of moonbeams, promises and fantasies the real world, you really are part of the problem.
For to read what you know is 100% Bullshit when certain topics are avoided makes you no different from the storyteller, to allow untruths you know of to filter your brain and for you to live in the lie is the biggest concern to all.
Not to call out what you know is not true is the greatest insult you can impose on your family and friends when confronting them and passing on the lie.
The Trueman show may have been made in Hollywood, but the storyline is no different from the fans who follow faithfully whilst spoonfed sh*t and convince themselves that 2012 was just a dream.
Charles Green has just almost cleaned the Scottish Government and taxpayer for 20 million pounds ( maybe less in a settlement plus costs), on that note hope you can sleep easy in your wonderland.
Maybe see you around and if so remember this, a lie will always be a lie regardless what year it has stamped on its creation and the truth will always be the truth and has no time stamp and will never go out of date as long as people are alive to bring it out in the open.
People like you created the uneven playing field which is still in existence, this will probably remain in place whilst people like you keep it alive and feed the manipulators who run the game to suit their own agendas.
And, yes, some could not care less about the Scotland Football team and its results, and the reason for it is understandable, for the association that is behind it, is the same association who created the myth and created the lie in the beginning, so why would any rational thinking person support that and wish to see it suceed, for what gain would it bring to the fans, nothing.
reasonablechap 11th November 2020 at 09:48
"..Quick addition to the earlier post (half way down).
Basically, your war was lost (there were no winners) "
"""""""""""""""""""""""
How apposite is the reference to 'war' on this Remembrance Day!
Forefront in our minds are the sacrifices of millions of decent people in the struggle for Truth in its fight against the Lies of the Nazi 'Third Reich'
That struggle was won, at huge cost in terms of human suffering.
Truth will always win in the end.
The lies of the petty little men in Scottish football governance do not cease to be lies simply because so many choose not to challenge them ( the Nazi part had plenty of supporters) or because their effect on us [the destruction of Sporting Integrity in Scottish Football] can in no way be compared to the horrific effects of the Nazi lies: we are not being rounded up for imprisonment or extermination.
Nevertheless, when men in offices of Trust are prepared to lie in the trivial matter of Sport, one wonders just to what levels of untruth and betrayal of trust their weakness might lead them to if something more than sport were involved.
The guilty men know what we all know: Rangers Football Club that was founded in 1873(or maybe 1872?) entered Liquidation , its principal assets having been sold off dirt cheap by Administrators who failed to find a buyer prepared to pay all the debts to buy the Club and bring it out of Administration.
That club is still In Liquidation.
The new football club that was granted admission to the SFL and to membership of the SFA in 2012 is not, and cannot possibly be, that same club now called RFC 2012 that is in Liquidation.
Adolf Hitler at the peak of his satanic power would not be able , spit and foam at the mouth as he might, to alter that Truth.
Neither can the Scottish Football Authorities nor the Board of the RIFC plc, however much they play with words.
There will always be people like me around to remind them of their lies.
The recently exited poster could have inadvertently raised a perfectly valid observation.
If a footy supporter – of any of the 42 clubs – only gets his footy news from the SMSM – and actually believes what they read in the papers or hear on Radio Clyde or on the BBC…
then that supporter won’t have a Scooby about what happened in 2012 – and since.
They probably won’t think too much about the difference between Rangers FC (1872) and The Rangers (2012) either.
And that’s EXACTLY what the Ibrox club will try to reinforce during the ‘140 10’ Anniversary year of 2022.
IMO, 2022 could be the last chance to force some truth – and even an attempt at atonement / reconciliation of sorts – from BOTH Ibrox and Hampden.
I know that sounds as likely as Scotland playing positive, expressive, silky, winning footy tomorrow, but…
IF TRFC gets through 2022 ‘celebrations’ with the full, vocal support from the SMSM – and with the complicit silence from Hampden AND all the other 41 clubs…
THEN, there will simply always be a serious lack of trust and respect in the Scottish game, IMO.
StevieBC 11th November 2020 at 18:35
If a footy supporter – of any of the 42 clubs – only gets his footy news from the SMSM – and actually believes what they read in the papers or hear on Radio Clyde or on the BBC…
then that supporter won’t have a Scooby about what happened in 2012 – and since.
They probably won’t think too much about the difference between Rangers FC (1872) and The Rangers (2012) either.
IMO, 2022 could be the last chance to force some truth – and even an attempt at atonement / reconciliation of sorts – from BOTH Ibrox and Hampden.
IF TRFC gets through 2022 ‘celebrations’ with the full, vocal support from the SMSM – and with the complicit silence from Hampden AND all the other 41 clubs…
………..
I believe The recently exited posters favorite friend Peter Lawwell put it best.
At Celtic’s agm, Lawwell was asked by a supporter from the floor about the reporting of Rangers in the media as a club founded in 1872, rather than a new club following liquidation last summer. The Celtic chief replied drily: “Rory Bremner can pretend to be Tony Blair”
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/6270499/rangers-legal-fight-sports-direct-ashley/
…………
Were we not told in April Ashley was gone?
I'm really not sure that this is the appropriate forum for discussing April Ashley
Google the name for an explanation
Mikey 12th November 2020 at 02:03
'..I'm really not sure that this is the appropriate forum for discussing April Ashley'
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Ha,ha, Mikey. Good one. I'm glad I googled: it's too early in the day to look again at the SDI stuff!
normanbatesmumfc 11th November 2020 at 16:11
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
There you go again, making false statements. I for one, do not wish good luck to Scotland on Thursday.
While trough-gorging, deliberately deceitful, morally bankrupt charlatans like Petrie, Doncaster et al continue to pollute the offices at Hampden, I only want to see failure for the national team, reflecting their incompetence. I mean no ill to the manager or players involved, but the very thought of Petrie's gravy-stained chin grinning at me as Scotland take the field at a major championships, turns my stomach.
C'mon Serbia!
—————————???—————————–
Saw this post earlier and thought wtf!! Mind you I have seen similar stuff from other Celtic minded posters on here. Frankly it disgusts me! However the blazers behave (including Mr Lawwell) I for one will always support Scotland on the field of play. Great performance tonight by all players and you only had to see and hear the emotional interviews from the players (Ryan Christie, David Marshall, Andy Robertson etc, etc) to realise how much this meant to them. Fantastic.
I have had a few drams but you should be feckin ashamed of yourself. As JC would say (sorry for borrowing) BAD CESS to you.
bordersdon 12th November 2020 at 23:33
'..However the blazers behave..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""
You're absolutely right in making the distinction between the heroes on the field of play and the rottenness of the Governance of the sport in which they individually performed superbly.
It is annoying , however, that the superb performance of Steve Clarke and his team profits scoundrels and liars!
That's the position that the lying bast.rds have tried to put us in: ' if you support a Scotland national team, you must support us!'
Not so, of course.
The success of tonight's team is in no way an endorsement of the lying Governance body, who will use it as some kind of validation that they are honest brokers in the administration of Scottish Football.
Which we know, of course, is not the case.
bordersdon 12th November 2020 at 23:33
normanbatesmumfc 11th November 2020 at 16:11
Frankly it disgusts me! However the blazers behave (including Mr Lawwell) I for one will always support Scotland on the field of play. Great performance tonight by all players and you only had to see and hear the emotional interviews from the players (Ryan Christie, David Marshall, Andy Robertson etc, etc) to realise how much this meant to them. Fantastic."
Because the players celebrate and show how much it means to them that they will be going to a tournament, does not erase the fact that the organisation they play for left the sour taste in some of the fans mouth, and some of those fans walked away in the believe that it is morally wrong to indulge in the myth that the association had the fans best interest at heart when they rigged the game, rigged agreements, to give priorites and allowed a myth to be created and still do.
So if some fans would like to see Scotlands national team fall flat on it's asre then the question of why that might be so has to be addressed and if it was to be so and done in a proper manner with all cards laid on the table, then a lot more it might be found might simply also walk away.
A group of players showing a highly charged emotion does not mean people who see what underlies have to be to feel guilty for refusing tobe part in the charade, the nation wishes the footballers and management well, but nothing changes and completes the damages done until the truth is out and the replacements and new beginning starts, and in that all within and included in sport at all levels are been treated equal in the name of integrity, from now until the tournament all the previous frauds and tax dodgers and secret agreement members will be rolled out and invited onto the gravy train once again to feed the masses more of the same.
Look forward to the sheniggans of the cups of tea and ticket prices hike for the venues, all been well with covid19.
Happy for the players and Management team last night. But sad that the corrupt cable at hampden Dine out on the Team success.
Clarke (with an e) use to play golf with peter and Dermot, but the offer never arrived.
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1327223776132608004
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18869339.row-withheld-charlotte-fake-emails-obtained-dave-king-wrongful-rangers-fraud-arrest-case/
……………..
Something we spoke about just the other day.
How can we move on from the events of 2012 when the ripples can still be felt on this day
A straight forward question, ideally for the legal minds on the site: in what sense can a limited company (for example Company no. SC425159, incorporated on 29th May 2012) claim to have existed prior to its date of incorporation?
Asking for a friend…
Cluster One 13th November 2020 at 12:45
"..How can we move on from the events of 2012 when the ripples can still be felt on this day'
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Mention of legal things prompts this post.
From the Rolls of the Court of Session
"Wednesday 18th November
LORD TYRE – T Sadler, Clerk
By Order
between 9.00am and 10.00am
CA9/20 David Whitehouse v The Chief Constable of Police Scotland &c "
—
Separately, Cluster One, your link to the resurrection of interest in the 'Charlotte Fakes' stuff is interesting. The few bits and pieces that I 'saved' from those that were posted on the RTC blog at the time were great fun to read, giving a picture of first name 'chumminess' masking deep distrust between some of the 'chums'
Some day whoever(I know who) now has them ( apart from the Crown Office) might feel free to release all that he has: there might be a reasonably profitable book in it, to be published on the day on which the 150th(149th?) anniversary of the birth of RFC of 1872(73?) and the 10th/11th anniversary of that club's death in 2012.
It would be lovely to see what other draft statements or letters etc might have been sent from the SFA to 'Rangers' for editing and redrafting and seeking their permission to release to the Press.
An observation from last night's game.
Not only was their goalscorer unmarked, I noticed that there was nobody on the back post at the corner.
Had someone been there, there was a good chance that they would have cleared it.
Now, roll forward half an hour and into the second last min of extra time.
Serbia get a corner and again nobody was on the back post.
Is this a typical Steve Clarke trait?
Any Killie fans on here notice similar at Rugby Park when he was in charge.
HS
bordersdon 12th November 2020 at 23:33
Logged in last night to see if there was any reaction to the game earlier.
Just managing to log in now for a wee peruse.
Must be the only site 'monitoring' Scottish Football not to acknowledge a result most people have been waiting for since 1998.
Sadly, while I appreciate many folks on here (me included) do not have a particular liking for the SFA, it is this kind of thing that has probably turned many a contributor away from the site to the extent it now looks very much like a closed shop with limited appeal regarding the all the issues affecting the whole of Scottish Football.
wottpi 13th November 2020 at 14:31
Chill , buddy ! I phoned NHS 24 as I was feeling strange this morning . Apparently . I am suffering from euphoria and the thing to do is enjoy it . There might be a few in the same boat.
wottpi 13th November 2020 at 14:31
Logged in last night to see if there was any reaction to the game earlier.
Must be the only site ‘monitoring’ Scottish Football not to acknowledge a result most people have been waiting for since 1998.
………………..
Shock,or they were celebrating.
brian_d84 13th November 2020 at 13:55
I am not a "legal mind", however I suppose if it existed as a different type of legal entity.
Say a partnership, which had existed for 20 years prior to it's incorporation.
Whilst the limited company may only have existed from that date, that would not mean that it's achievement as a partnership would be lost. For example it's assets, contracts etc would probably still be there.
normanbatesmumfc 11th November 2020 at 16:11
John Clark 13th November 2020 at 00:27John Clark 13th November 2020 at 00:27
bigboab1916 13th November 2020 at 11:43
Cluster One 13th November 2020 at 12:21
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Sorry guys much as I have no respect for the blazers (not only in the SFA/Spfl) I can’t agree that genuine football fans in Scotland should be other that delighted that our team have achieved what has been elusive for far too many years! Ryan Christie could not control his pride and delight and I am certain that he was typical. I could not control my delight and neither could all of my family. This site has become a single issue site only becoming alive when something IBROX is current. I post as a fervent believer in the cause of hitting against the cheats propagating the BIG LIE (and Celtic and my team were part of it) but can not nor will not let that dilute my support of the Scotland team. The fact that the Blazers will benefit from this is of course regrettable but Celtic supporters, in any numbers at least, will not abandon their team because the PLC are implicated in the BIG LIE.
wottpi 13th November 2020 at 14:31
I agree entirely and am pretty much out. Disgusted!!
bordersdon 13th November 2020 at 21:16
'I post as a fervent believer in the cause of hitting against the cheats propagating the BIG LIE (and Celtic and my team were part of it) but can not nor will not let that dilute my support of the Scotland team'
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Begging your pardon, bordersdon, my own post about the liars in governance profiting from the success of the national team does not in anyway, and was not intended in any way, to detract from the sublimity of the sporting achievement of the Scotland team.
As I said, it's bloody annoying that a cheating governance board should benefit from the honest, heroic efforts of the guys on the pitch.
The problem is that the liars in governance will try to legitimise themselves by the diversionary tactic of pointing to 'success'!
John Clark 14th November 2020 at 00:40
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Final word. But as we all know John the liars and cheats were put there and kept there by the clubs!!!
I'm with you bordersdon. I don't tune in often but came in yesterday to revel in the best Scottish fitba story for years, never mind 2020. Nae support Scotland because, you know, the blazers? What a joke! Like I should have stopped supporting the Dons because of Stewarty Milne? I don't think so. SFM is a one trick pony that I've backed for years (Donkey's years?) but this one club above all others has reached a new extreme IMO.
ernie 14th November 2020 at 14:28
I’m with you bordersdon. I don’t tune in often but came in yesterday to revel in the best Scottish fitba story for years, never mind 2020.
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Why did you not post something yesterday and revel in the best scottish football story for years?
Come on , lads and lassies . I follow Thistle and Scotland , home and ofttimes away , and yes , we had a marvellous display and a belter of a result the other night . There's never much traffic on here during the International break – in fact , I looked back to this time last year when we beat Kazakhstan 3-1 at Hampden after going behind . Not a cheep from anybody about the end of the campaign , the lack of enthusiasm for the National team , our chances in the play-off , the difference that Stevie Clarke made compared to the charlatans who proceeded him – not one post . I didn't feel moved to post either , then or now , especially as the Scottish government seems happy to hijack the "feel good factor " while still demonising football and it's supporters .
paddy malarkey 14th November 2020 at 19:57
in fact , I looked back to this time last year when we beat Kazakhstan 3-1 at Hampden after going behind . Not a cheep from anybody about the end of the campaign , the lack of enthusiasm for the National team , our chances in the play-off , the difference that Stevie Clarke made compared to the charlatans who proceeded him – not one post . I didn’t feel moved to post either
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Putting things in perspective…..Not a cheep from anybody;-)
paddy malarkey 14th November 2020 at 19:57
I support Celtic and Scotland, though to be fair I haven't really supported Scotland very much financially, not having gone to many games.
I don't understand why anyone would want the national team to lose. I can understand people being apathetic about the whole thing, but to actually want them to lose makes no sense to me.
Personally I watched the game, thought we should have won it in normal time, but was well chuffed when we won on penalties.
I'm really not sure why the team I support should make any difference to that. It's just great to see Scotland back in a major tournament again. The younger generation can now enjoy seeing us snatching defeat from the jaws of victory the way I have.
As quoted in 'The Scotsman' today from Serbian newspaper 'Nezavisne dnevne novine INFORMER' [Independent daily newspaper 'Informer']:
"The Serbian media are …..bemoaning an absence from the European Championships that stretches back beyond the country's current inception to its previous days as part of Yugoslavia."
The Serbia national team claiming the history Yugoslavia's national team?
The last remaining reference to Serbia/Yugoslavia was in April 1992, (by which time all the other countries that Tito had formed into the Communist republic of Yugoslvia had regained their independence) the remaining Serbia and Montenegro formed the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
And in 2006 Montenegro and Serbia split into two different states.
There hasn't been any kind of 'Yugoslavia' since then, any more than there has been a Rangers Football Club of 1872/(73?) since 2012!
And I think we can say with absolute confidence that the citizens of Croatia, Montenegro, Slovenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Macedonia would have had a wee quiet chuckle to themselves when they watched the game and (probably) applauded Scotland's victory, in the way that many of us are quietly pleased when England gets humped by anyone!
( is the 'Informer' guy/girl who wrote the piece from which I've quoted an honorary member of the SMSM? …'the country's current inception' indeed!)
Honest to God!
(And I've just been sent a link to Janey Godley's 'Nicola's' observations on the game. I am not one for profanities, but it is just fcukin' great: my sides are sore with laughing, and Mrs C, on the phone to her pal in Glasgow, is laughing so hard that she can hardly describe and explain .)
Homunculus 14th November 2020 at 22:15
I could barely force myself to watch towards the end . Should have won it in 90 , should have lost it in 120 , and nice to be confident when penalties come as we haven't missed . Yet !
paddy malarkey 14th November 2020 at 22:34
Absolutely. I thought we should have scored one or two more during the 90. The late goal seemed to give them a huge lift and have the opposite effect on us, neither is that surprising under the circumstances.
I think we deserved to go through, even if it was on penalties in the end. As you say it's strange going into those with a bit of confidence. I did think when Griffiths went on late it was with a view to him taking one.
Homunculus 14th November 2020 at 22:15
'..The younger generation can now enjoy seeing us snatching defeat from the jaws of victory the way I have.'
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That's surely a wee bit pessimistic, Homunculus! Surely!
We wouldn't want any repetition of dear old Ally's optimism, God rest him, but we have qualified, and against some quite stiff opposition, with Serbia in particular being put to the pin of its collar in trying to defeat us!
Steve Clarke is more Stein and Shankly than Ally!
New blog – on the future of the blog 🙂