Football is indeed a funny old game.
In a year of pandemic misery our national sport has lifted the spirits of a tired and cynical nation.
Dominic Cummings is leaving number 10, the Brexit deal hasn’t been done, lockdown is on the horizon in the West of Scotland, etc. BUT all we want to do is talk about and relive our team finally doing the business.
For once lady luck came down on our side.
If we been the team to miss our last penalty and had the Serbians scored then Serbian Football would be £10million plus better off and it would be their team heading for Hampden and Wembley.
We’d still be in the doldrums and a Pandemic-accelerated financial basket case.
Scotland is now in their first finals since France 1998 and the nation is smiling and talking positively.
There is no doubt that Steve Clarke’s influence has been huge and we all owe him a real debt especially the bean counters at Hampden who must have been hiding behind their settees hiding their eyes through extra time and into the shoot-out.
Scotland is playing more like a club team with a binding spirit rather than a group of individuals who have just met, are there for the match fee and want to stay in their previous cliques.
The dark side is never far away though.
Overconfidence is always an issue when Scotland wins a few games.
Journalists are now filling pages talking about our 9 game unbeaten run and digging up statistics from the past about what 10 in a row would mean.
The fact that since we got humped 4-0 by Russia we’ve been playing second and third level teams rather than the big boys is somehow never mentioned as a counterbalance.
That we have qualified after 2 penalty shoot outs with a statistically unlikely 10 out of 10 consecutive strikes is put down to practicing penalty taking better than Israel and Serbia.
The two games in the next 4 days might extend our run or not – it doesn’t really matter.
We have the big prize for now and qualified against the odds.
Records will show the much higher ranked Norway and Serbia teams will be at home.
Ok we’ll be at home too but playing at Hampden and Wembalee.
Scottish Football on the park has rediscovered and is redefining teamwork.
Nothing else in our game or set up has changed
(That is a discussion for many another day though).
The success of our team is to a great extent serendipitous.
It’s not something anyone in a suit at Hampden has facilitated or can take credit for outside of hiring Mr Clarke who as Chic was telling us yesterday was the obvious candidate.
The right manager, Steve has gathered a promising group of players and with them negotiated a series of testing challenges.
The stark reality is sometimes the recent games have been painful to watch but progress in baby steps has been noticeable and we genuinely played well against the more fancied Serbia.
Teamwork has been our bedrock.
Teamwork that has been missing for a long time in our international set up and I would argue throughout our game behind the scenes.
Yes we lost a silly goal at the death but Serbia is some 15 places above us in the FIFA rankings and on the night we were by far the better side.
The same Serbian team that had just returned from Oslo having taken apart the much-vaunted Norwegian side.
Steve Clarke has been the catalyst that has facilitated the unforeseen move from Scotland being a team of self-interested individuals into one with the team spirit.
Yes Steve We Can Boogie.
The Scottish team has moved on and the future is brighter on the international stage.
I understand too why many previously ardent Scots fans had distanced themselves from the team as a personal protest against The SFA and their actions over the last few years.
I get that.
But listening to Ryan and Andy and Lyndon and Steve was enough to demonstrate that these guys are playing for the country and their folks back home and not the blazers or the system.
I buy into their passion and that alone is enough to bring even the stubbornest fans back aboard.
When Big Pink asked me to write a blog about the future of this site a couple of weeks back I said I would like to lurk for a few weeks and do some digging.
I have lurked and gone even further back too.
Top line is the SFM blog is not what it was but you all know that.
Here is Some Feedback
Bit by bit; imperceptibly over the months and years the site has entrenched into the home of the anger and the facts against what John Clark has come to call “The Big Lie”.
Its about how the authorities dealt with the financial collapse of Rangers and set the scene for a series of mayhemic events since.
It’s a big Scottish football story and a good insight into how the game managed itself
But other things have been happening since and football has broken out.
One of you said just yesterday
“This site has become a single issue site only becoming alive when something IBROX is current”.
That is partially true and is something to address because it diminishes what this site can achieve.
The number of posters has eroded since the RTC days and the number of clubs represented by posters has also diminished. The site was always a little Celtic minded but open and welcoming of all clubs at the same time.
Some of that goodwill leaked away in this summer’s SPFL pantomime season when self-interest and the quest for 10 became a subconscious position for some of your group.
The level of politeness and the moderation on the site has however remained a huge asset and is almost unique.
This openness has led recently to one serial troll reappearing after several previous monikers and he/she/they have been playing games with several well know posters. The resultant “dancing on a head of a pin” conversations are not so much “Monitoring Scottish Football” as “doing people’s heads in” and this episode has not helped.
That being said I wish salmon were as easy to hook as some on here.
I don’t think there are enough Headline Blogs like this one and in the past I’ve been told many new blogs are simply skimmed politely and ignored as the discussion reverts to the ongoing various fall outs of the consequences of the infamous secret 5 way agreement and all that has ensued following that particular monumental administrative cock up.
I well remember too and liked Stunney and his papers every morning and even though most of what is written in the back pages of the red tops is there to fill space it was still fun to read.
At the same time there has been so much going on that would have benefitted from the forensic discussion that SFM posters brought to the party.
The court reporting by John Clark, EasyJambo and others has been quite dogged, incredibly insightful and shown up the media on many an occasion.
As the subjects under discussion on SFM became narrower I think the site stopped attracting new blood and also accelerated the departure of valued posters.
The diminishing site then became easier for serial disrupters to play with and the ever-decreasing circles metaphor has probably become a reality.
Finally, the adverts on the site that appeared, as if by magic, a few years ago do not deliver enough revenue to justify the inconvenience to readers.
I can’t read the site on my phone without clicking into people trying to sell me stuff I have no interest in.
That’s just a summary of my views as someone who values what this site has brought over the years.
Is it Time for a Reboot at SFM?
I’d say yes and here are a few suggestions to get you thinking and to start a discussion ahead of Big P and his monitors taking some decisions.
Scottish Football needs an independent conscience.
Scottish Football will be the stronger for it.
SFM can be a huge part of that.
Not all fans will want to be part of it because many just want to support their teams and that is fair enough but without a fan voice and without real analysis of what is really going on all that will happen is we’ll get more of the same that took us into the football wilderness.
And without the right changes even Steve Clarke will run out of steam one day when the penalty gods favour some other side.
So here are 5 ideas for SFM to consider
1 A Regular Blog
This doesn’t have to be written for us like in the past– it can just be a weekly news pick that we highlight to set a discussion agenda.
2 The Creation of a John Clark Wall where we hold the facts about the run up to and the creation of his “big lie”.
Set it all our logically and leave it alone for a future date.
It won’t go away because the action created issues for everyone involved.
It should be constructed for all fans with no jelly and ice cream flavouring.
This action would makes SFM the experts and place to go to read what really happened, helps get that monkey off everyone’s back and can be revisited every February 14th or when something turns up.
It might throw more light too in why we are rejoicing about Scotland getting a £10M windfall from qualifying while nobody is talking about the £80M court case costs heading our way as a nation.
All out of a secret 5 way construct back in 2012 and good for nobody whoever you support.
In the meantime SFM should broaden the discussion on other areas like the dropping of the pyramid, the secrecy inherent at the SFA, SPFL and their JRG, Strict Liability, etc. etc. etc.
3 The return of likes for posts that are good or if you agree but with a difference.
I occasionally post on another site which is free to read for anyone but if you want to post or like another post you have to be registered and all likes show the name of the person who has posted.
4 A consideration for different threads at the same time.
5 No ads.
Sponsorship is fine and banner ads for sponsors too but no commercial links that wheech you off to pastures unknown.
Evolution rather than Revolution
I look forward to the debate and to working with Big Pink and his team.
As chair of the largest Scottish group of fans the SFSA (If you’re not a member please join) I know that the only certainty is that fans will never agree about everything or sometimes even anything.
The tribal and competitive nature of football sets us against each other and causes divisions and disagreements that can become entrenched.
Some would say that is part of the fun of it all.
That being said we do generally agree and care deeply about the following.
We want vision, leadership and most of all fairness and transparency.
All alien words in our game as is.
OK Scotland has qualified for a major championship but our game is still locked in a self-interest framed self-imposed wrestling hold and the fact is that escape will never happen without change.
SFM and SFSA can both be part of that.
Been on our minds for some time, but I think there is a case for us to change with the times whilst retaining the core message of integrity for the sport and rebuttal of media untruths.
I think the multi-thread idea that Andy brings to the table is something we have considered before, but should consider again. The ads are increasingly annoying folk also, but as they only bring in around about £500 a year it is arguable that we could do without.
Everything up for grabs I think as our main concern has always been retaining that cross-party camaraderie that grew up with RTC, and was the reason myself and Tom and a few others took up the cudgels.
All things have a sell-by date – and SFM will undoubtedly be among them. I don't think that time needs to be now, and repositioning ourselves is the way to ensuring that its not.
Ideas and contributions are welcome. My thoughts initially;
Change to a multithreaded bulletin board
Regular articles published (members will have the right to open new discussion threads)
Trolls will have to be weeded out and humoured a lot less than they are currently.
Space for club-specific chat news and articles
Dispose of ads
That's for now 🙂
4 A consideration for different threads at the same time.
A forum rather than a blog with comments would always have been a better format for a site like this.
That way people can join in with threads / topics they are interested in, which makes things easier to keep on topic for moderators. Having several disparate conversations going on at the same time in the same thread does not lead to easy reading sometimes.
This format makes it easier for people to disrupt the whole site, rather than just individual threads.
Forums also allow the "ignore function", so if there is anyone members just find annoying they can put them on ignore and not even see their posts. Clearly you can do that already but some folk seem to struggle with the concept.
Change is good.
The site probably does need re-energised and refocused.
The site seemed to take a noticeable dip after the March lockdown, IMO.
For my tuppence worth, I'd generally agree with the above suggestions.
As SFM followed on from RTC, '2012' won't go away – but agreed, there may be a better way of dealing with these legacy issues on SFM.
A couple of general observations;
– nothing has changed WRT the SMSM.
Initially, SFM was 'asking questions the Scottish media won't ask' and then the tag line became 'there's a lot of ignorance out there'. I don't think that has changed over the years – but the SMSM influence has perhaps dropped with it declining circulation / ratings / levels of trust, (especially with the BBC).
SFM still has the opportunity to provide the information – and opinions/debate – not available elsewhere.
The SFM court reporting is the prime example of where this site provides a valuable source of information, IMO.
&
– nothing has changed WRT the SFA.
The SFA has not changed or improved – one iota – in terms of communicating with supporters, or seeking their feedback over the last 8 years in particular, IMO.
If the SFA was restructured it 'could' also address some of the lingering bad feeling in the game, since 2012?
But, the SFA continues to evade the levels of inspection and criticism it thoroughly deserves – publicly.
Clarke and the players achieved an unexpected – but highly welcomed – qualification DESPITE the SFA, IMO.
[Just observations: don't know the answers!
]
It's a timely contribution on a personal level as I have for some time been considering leaving the monitor and this latest blog post has concentrated my thinking somewhat. I still watch Scottish football on occasion when broadcast but contribute little in financial terms. My grandchildren are lost to the game (eight and five years old) as there is no enthusiasm or effort to cajole them one way or another. A bitter old man then ? Perhaps, but I refuse to be conned or patronised by a cheating cabal of directors and reporters who would rather I know my place. I miss the excitement of matchday and the camaraderie of attendance but that has been robbed of me by the events of the last eight years. It is perhaps ironic that a sense of loyalty to the site and it's owners is the only thing that keeps me from ahem.. walking away. Changing the site composition may well be the only way to ensure it's future but there are many such sites already available, if this monitor is perceived as a single issue site then that is because it is a single issue of import that is not highlighted sufficiently elsewhere. By all means change the site in order to try and broaden it's appeal but don’t hide 2012 away in the back of the display cabinet as if embarrassed by coming 3rd in the darts and doms of the local hostelry in 1974.I am fatigued and dissappointed at the lack of impact the monitor has made at changing the game for good following 2012.There appear to be no answers to the arrogant stance of the SFA and the clubs in dealing with questions the authorities find uncomfortable. If the The Scottish Football Supporters Association has had some success or even publicly called out the governance in Scotland on matters concerning 'Ibrox' then perhaps I would take that organisation more seriously. In terms of moving on then all I can say is that I did move on, in 2012.
There is no mystery as to why the 2012 saga, Sevco and the demise of the previous club playing out of Ibrox is discussed all the time.
It is because one regular contributor – and presumably financial supporter of the site – posts about it 2 or 3 times a day.
Would be extremely harsh in my opinion to start removing posts of truth and value simply because of their topic, but I think a less 2012-centric focus would do the site a power of good – however it it best achieved. There are important recent issues before us that require the forensic eye SFM has offered for many years.
Don't think there would be any chance of forgetting the 2012 car crash brian_d84.
I think the sentiment in the blog – with which I largely agree – is that the same people who created that car crash are going about their business today with very little prevent a repeat. We need to try to raise a platform where everyone can see what is going on in the game. We may never succeed in changing it by force of argument, but knowledge is power after all, and we are in a position to ensure that people are im possession of knowledge – or alternative interpretations if you like.
There are many unchallengeable 'truths' – myths created by the authorities and dispensed daily by the media – that need to be challenged.
Just as a for instance: our referees are excellent, and incorruptible.
Single club fanbases have little leverage in that argument. I'd wager that a cross party fan association would have more success in making that challenge if it became clear that trust in referees was not confined to fans of the club who lost out last weekend because of the latest inexplicable piece of nonsense.
2012, last season early doors shutdown, gangsters running clubs (not just Rangers btw). Its all connected. So I come to this with the premise that cross party consensus in these matters is key.
PS: You may have noticed that the ads are gone, and the TU/TD thing is back 🙂
I’m just glad to see everything up for discussion. The site was needing tweaked.
@ScottishFA
announce that Compliance Officer Clare Whyte will leave her role with the association in early 2021.
……………
No one ever lasts long in that job. Wonder if the sleepless nights have a part in it.
Amazon are doing a great line in mirrors just now,buy one look, reflect.
Thumbs are back
Clare Whyte, the Compliance Officer at the SFA is offski. I wonder why?
On another site Auldheid reckons the 5 way agreement had made her job untenable.
Here's my tuppence worth:
If Clare Whyte was undermined by referees like Beaton that raises an interesting scenario. Both are employed by the SFA. It is the compliance officer’s role surely to be above and beyond the persuasion of the refereeing dept.? If she was not able to dig her heels in one would expect the employer (SFA) to protect her. Otherwise why have a compliance officer at all?
If she was not able to do her job because of the 5 way agreement that’s a different thing altogether. Now it’s the employer (SFA) above her which is at fault. There is no easy way out of this. Except it would be for me. Expose it! To the media – in England if necessary – inform EUFA. Tell them to stuff their non disclosure agreements. Go on sue me! Let it come out in the courts. Be principled.
Thinking back, the title of Scottish Football Monitor Blog (agreed after views were sought) was, if I remember correctly, intended to broaden discussion from the old Rangers financial woes/crimes onto the wider Scottish Football 'arena'.
The appeal for me, therefore, was that a poster could comment on a whole range of topics (although I am a lifelong CFC supporter, the 'narrowness' of parochial blogs has never appealed to me – so I avoid them and only post on here, which I find is more open minded and much less agenda driven).
Any criticism I've had has in the main (!) been objective, fair and constructive as well as being part of my 'learning curve' – particularly on legal.financial matters.
The TU/TD facility has served as a useful 'gauge' on how my opinions were viewed by the community at large – without individuals having to respond through posting comments – so I'm glad ti see this feature's reappearance.
The main focus, however, must continue to be on John Clark's Indefatigability Wall ( he, thankfully, never 'lets up')- built to expose the 'Big Lie'!
I have posted less frequently precisely because I tend to focus on Res12 matters which is generally seen via a green prism.
However what Res12 has done is to draw attention to the 5 Way Agreement and how it's toxicity continues to affect governance integrity to date, and that includes the role of the compliance officers McGlennan in limiting the period of the non compliance charges and now Claire Whyte for not responding to information supplied seeking clarification and compromising her personal integrity in the process.
The 5 Way Agreement and its consequences are an insult to the integrity of Scottish football and intelligence of football supporters.
Res12 was always about SFA reform and the Res12 process since 2013 demonstrates just how much integrity needs to be restored.
There will be a Celtic AGM and Res12 will be on the agenda. Not in Q&A but in AGM report itself.
Hopefully that will free the 5 Way Agreement from the shackles of the green handcuffs and enable The SFSA to take a clear non partisan view that allows the issue of SFA governance to become one that all supporters can get behind no matter whom they support because the lack of unbiased governance put Rangers into liquidation and Celtic between a rock and a hard place..
There is a lesson learning aspect for Celtic supporters iro accountability of The Celtic Board that is best taken forward on Celtic blogs post AGM, but given it's about accountability and how to get it, the lessons will apply to more clubs than Celtic, so seepage here will do no harm.
I'd prefer Moving Forward to Moving On to be honest. The 5 Way is unfinished business, it's consequences are still with us and it is something the SFA need monitoring on.
On a separate area for the Big Lie issue dont forget the Res12 Archive that will be updated when Celtic AGM announced or after the AGM (I only know preparations are underway, not when or how it will be conducted) that sets out events since 2013 up until the summer and would be a place for Trumpian deniers to claim how they won the election on made up legal grounds and like Trumpians, no amount of evidence to the contrary will lead to a change of mind.
This year supporters kept their clubs alive based on emotions, next year those emotions will have more to consider before providing unconditional support.
SFM has a moving forward role to play there along with addressing the other issues that rob our game of the joy that had most supporters boogieing last Thursday.
Bring the joy back.
I believe everyone would like more posters from other clubs to post. They just don't.Some may look in and leave a token one comment now and again, some may not want to leave the bosom of their own fan sites were you just have to say the right couple of words to get the thumbs up or gold stars,and some may want to say something on a topic but may feel it will be taken apart bit by bit until the point the poster may feel feck doing that again.Yes a little bit of change can be a good thing,but you need a variety of different supporters willing to say something for change to be effective. With so many fans now in lockdown the chance to engage should be more. Well you can't go down the pup and talk about things now can you
I left about three months ago for my own reasons after posting for many years. I could certainly be tempted back though and I like the idea of a multi thread forum. I do miss the generally respectful nature of the chat on here. There are some decent fans forums out there but they have become far too political and intolerant, and some of them basically define your suitability to be accepted based on your views on the Scottish Independence debate. If your view is not the same as that of the ruling clique, then you are an automatic bad guy. As someone who has attended Celtic games since the 1970's I find that quite a depressing scenario, but it's where we are. I certainly hope that SFM never allows itself to become a politically extreme forum.
According to a report in the Glasgow Evening Times, penned by Matthew Lindsay, the SFA should look at bringing in a "tough character with a police (my bold) background" to replace their outgoing compliance officer Clare Whyte.
This quote is attributed to Graham (Mr?) Bean (the English FA's first compliance officer).
Jings, crivvens and help ma boab – does he realise the sectarian stooshie that could cause up here (only amongst the paranoid you understand)?
I said last week that I’d no longer post in what is now being acknowledged by some as a 2012 bubble of sorts. However, I note the new blog topic Moving On Time?, the subsequent discussion and thought I’d throw in my tuppence worth.
ps. Well Done Scotland !!
bect67 16th November 2020 at 23:10
According to a report in the Glasgow Evening Times, penned by Matthew Lindsay, the SFA should look at bringing in a “tough character with a police (my bold) background” to replace their outgoing compliance officer Clare Whyte.
…………………..
As long as he does not sing;-)
We should hear about the singing constable tomorrow.
Auldheid 16th November 2020 at 16:00
"Moving forward as opposed to moving on"
As always, Auldheid hitting the nail on the head.
The Res 12 fight is perhaps one of the best chances we have to resolve the issues of the past.
I, for one, do not think it is something that is viewed through a green prism. However, it is an issue where Celtic, as a club, should have taken a much stronger lead. But hats of to Auldheid and his guys efforts and they will always have my support and any update is greatly welcomed.
The fight to expose the Big Lie should go on.
However, when the number of penalty awards for the club for Ibrox generate more posts than Scotland qualifying for a major final then SFM is losing its way.
Plenty other issues to be discussed regards Scottish Football such as where do we stand on teams like Albion Rovers now changing their tune and screaming out for reconstruction.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/albion-rovers-gaffers-birthday-relief-22198675
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/albion-rovers-covid-crisis-could-23009817
A multi subject forum seems to be the way forward and attract back and gain new members who do not always want to get bogged down by every issue related to Ibrox, regardless of how much fun that can be at times.
My tuppence-worth. I look in most days and read every post but can find the focus on all things Ibrox a little tedious at times. Over the past few years it’s obvious that the number of posters has decreased and I think the blog is poorer for it. I also feel a multi-thread format could be the way to go.
SFM can, at times, be a difficult place to engage with if you stray from the majority view. There is certainly no abuse (with a capital A) from other posters and that is to everyone’s credit but alternative views (not alternative facts) can be difficult to get across. I would keep the thumbs up but do away with the thumbs down. A small change but something that would make a big difference, I think.
On the whole SFM was started for the right reasons, has a number of excellent and informative posters and is run by people who obviously care about the game in Scotland. I appreciate all their hard work and effort. There isn’t too much wrong with the site and period of self reflection can only improve things.
Not posted in ages, only because my laptop wasn't allowing me to log in due to security warnings about this site – suddenly it's okay! Didn't have much to say anyway, though I continued to read every day. Came across from RTC days and only ever posted both there and here on the subject of fairness.
Like everyone else (I think), I am concerned about the falling number of posters which leads to this forum being very much an echo chamber for the small group of posters who still care about fairness. Of course, I would like the site to attract new viewers/posters, but would NOT like us to gain such viewers/posters if they do not care about what we do. It's okay for RC (and his other names) to suggest our focus on 2012 is keeping new people away as that suits his agenda of shutting us up, but if we have to hide our intention of making others aware of the corruption and the Big lie, then I, personally, would say NO, I'm not prepared to do that.
It is the lack of new information and/or a new strategy for utilising the information that is the problem here, NOT the passion of those of us who want to expose the corruption that led to the Big Lie. If new viewers/posters could be attracted who could provide a fraction of what RTC could, or propose a new strategy for getting the information we have into the public eye, I would welcome them with open arms, but I'm not willing to accept fans of any club who want to come on and talk about other aspects of football – whether that's more up-to-date examples of corruption/incompetence on the part of the authorities/our clubs or just general football chat – while they ignore the truth of the past. Sorry, RC (and your other names), you don't get the right to suggest what we should talk about when we don't see you acknowledging the truth of liquidation, EBTs etc. You won't admit to that truth and won't change our minds, so why post here at all?
I applaud Auldheid and everyone else on here who continue to try to find a way to get the issues that matter discussed publicly, but it becomes clearer with each passing year that the authorities (Govt, Press, SFA, SPFL, our clubs) are circling the wagons more and more effectively to smother any debate about the incompetency, corruption and lies within our structures, be that the malicious court cases; refereeing standards; attitude to football and football fans; power of the Big 2 clubs etc.
IMO, this forum DOES talk about these issues, but just as with the 2012 issues, there seems to be no way to force any of them to be addressed. That being the case, why would SFM change specifically to attract people who might want to talk about those things if they themselves don't add value to what matters i.e. finding a way to have ALL of them publicly discussed honestly, accurately and without bias/favour.
Phils latest
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/11/17/hector-returns-to-ibrox/
I haven't posted in a while but sometimes life just gets in the way and work and other priorities like sitting in the hot tub when the sun is shining. As it's now heading into winter one of those 3 reasons has become redundant and so it is I find myself back bumping my gums at football back in my homeland. As C1 has just posted Phil's latest I have to question why if the content is accurate was a Euro licence given to a club* with overdue payables. I would also ask if their newest shareholder in the far East was 100% aware of the financial state of play before committing 5m to the cause. I await the annual accounts like a 5 year old waiting for Santa to arrive as it will answer more than a few questions. It shall also be interesting to see the long awaited outcome of Ashley's court case which seems to be back in play now. Should an administration event occur I can see the Covid card being played when it comes to the 15 point reduction . We should be ready to remind them that this was a club* with a going concern warning in the last accounts long before any shut down restricted income.
Cluster One 17th November 2020 at 20:56
That is interesting, given the circumstances it would not be that surprising for HMRC to allow time to pay.
I would however be interested in what actual type of tax it was. If for example it is VAT and given the large season ticket sales that would not be surprising, it would be an example of spending other people's money again. VAT on sales is money that the business collects on behalf of the Government and is never their own.
It would also be interesting to know when the tax was due and if it should have had knock-on effects on other parts of the business, for example licences when social taxes were unpaid.
Cluster One 17th November 2020 at 20:56
Homunculus 17th November 2020 at 21:21
As discussed, it really depends on what tax is being discussed.
Also Phil Mac says ‘around the time of the first lockdown, owed a substantial seven figure sum to HMRC’. Was this before or after lockdown? What range of timescales are we talking about?
I am sure plenty of businesses (and other football clubs) will have found themselves in the same boat ‘around the time of the first lockdown’
Here is an extract from a well known Tax Law firm regards arrangements with Hector.
My guess is everyone and their uncle is being given a degree of leeway regards monies owed.
Time will tell if it is more ‘clutching at straws’ or a real ‘developing story’.
wottpi @10.34
“My guess is everyone and their uncle is being given a degree of leeway regards monies owed”
Including historical and serial defaulters?
Just seen this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54987144
bect67 18th November 2020 at 10:41
The Rangers International Football Club Plc incorporated in November 2012, while having a few going concern warnings in their accounts, has no known record of being historical or serial defaulters in their 8 years of operation.
It is either the same club/company or it isn’t.
If you believe in the Big Lie you can’t have it both ways and pick and choose which elements fit an agenda, I’m afraid.
I believe the only ‘dodgy’ link to the old club is Dave King, who resigned his directorship and currently only appears to be a cold shouldered shareholder of RIFC Plc. I am not aware of any of the other investors/directors having caused HMRC any particular problems in the past.
I am in full agreement with Moving Forward (moving on) is a different issue and welcome the changes that have taken place and look forward to other changes that will come in time as with my football club when possible im a supporter of SFM so with the changes will their be any financial burden on the SFM
(pity we cant just have a share issue)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54987144
…………..
How can you move forward when the ripples of 2012 can still be felt on this day.
Ignore the The parent company that controlled the club was liquidated in October 2012.
That they never ever tell you the name of.
Cluster One 18th November 2020 at 13:53
More LIES from our national broadcaster regarding 2012.
The parent company of the 1872 club was Murray International Holdings, now dissolved: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC192523
Craig Whyte had his own parent company: Wavetower Ltd which changed its name to The Rangers FC Group Ltd.
The NEW club now has a parent company Rangers International.
The club that was liquidated in 2012 was NOT A PARENT COMPANY.
Anyone who thinks we should move on from 2012 when lies like that are in circulation is happy to accept being lied to. Not me.
nawlite 18th November 2020 at 12:21
Have you seen this?
………………
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/sport/football/rangers-administrators-reach-settlement-police-19302654
……….
Demoted.
How can anyone move on with reporting like this?
Cluster One 18th November 2020 at 13:53
brian_d84 18th November 2020 at 14:24
—————————————————————————–
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54987144
I have emailed BBC news and pointed out that the parent company at the time was Wavetower now known as The Rangers Fc Group and it is still a going concern. Hopefully they will make some attempt at correction.
wottpi
“It is either the same club or it isn’t”
What will it be in the eyes of the MSM, TRFC apologists, deniers and those of the WATP persuasion in 2022? Which way will the wind blow then I wonder? When are debts debts?!
For the record m’lord – I don’t have an agenda ( and though I guess that you didn’t necessarily imply that I had)
Finally, to help me fully understand your post @ 12.22, may I respectfully ask you to clarify your own ‘stance’ on the ‘Big Lie’ (I presume you do believe in it).
Anyone who still believes and promulgates the Big Lie is either stupid; biased; needs the money derived from "The Old Firm"….or all three!! That is why I was so vehement in my first post above. IMO it isn't worth attracting new people even if they want to discuss new iterations of incompetence, bias, greed etc UNLESS they buy into our position on the issues from 2012.
Reasonable Chap etc haven't earned the right to steer (!) or engage in debate on any new issues if they either can't understand or refuse to see the truth of the cheating and liquidation. BP and others may disagree of course.
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/sport/football/malky-mackay-quits-scottish-fa-19304653
Malky Mackay quits as Scottish FA performance director as he explains decision to leave Hampden.
………………..
Another one bites the dust.
For a feelgood factor on the pitch they are not half doing a walk away behind the doors.
I understand Nawlite's annoyance with the Trumpian stance taken by some contributors. There are facts and these facts are indisputably true (see facts). Alternative facts are by their nomenclature alternative to the truth i.e. fiction. I believe we have to be as open and inviting as possible a forum ( I think the trending description for that is .woke ?) Education is important and should blog posters not accept that the truth will set them free then that is an issue for them. I quite enjoy watching the discomfiture and self denial of such posters struggling with 'who played Brechin' or 'holding company' ,although it can drag on a little. The unfortunate fallout of 2012 is a further entrenchment of ideology. I don't care if current Rangers supporters are adamant they are the same club just please stop asking the rest of us to subscribe to your fantasy. All fans should come aboard , discuss refereeing and how to improve it, discuss the performance of the national team, discuss the way the way the sun revolves around the earth which is flat by the way, but be prepared to be schooled. This is and always has been an open forum that doesn’t suffer fools gladly..Facts are chiels, thanks to Rabbie and latterly John Clark for pointing this out. In short this is a great forum and open to discussing almost anything within reason . The majority posting are erudite, humorous and for the most part tolerant. I hope it stays that way.
In te spirit of coming together , we could maybe arrange a joint 150 year commemoration for RFC and Third Lanark in 2022 . Doesn't matter that they died in between – celebrating their birth .
gunnerb 18th November 2020 at 19:04
I think people sometimes mix fact up with opinion.
The bottom line is that, as you say, some things are a matter of fact. People can sometimes form different opinions based on those facts. What one can't do is change the facts to suit the opinion, or agenda.
To draw on an earlier discussion Rangers' holding company was Wavetower Ltd, which was formed in September 2010 and changed it's name to The Rangers FC Group Limited in May 2012. From Memory Wavetower also had a holding company, which was Liberty Capital, owned by Craig Whyte.
Any opinion that it was Rangers' holding company which went into administration and is now being liquidated is simply not based on the facts. It is an opinion based on unfounded claims.
Came on expecting all the doom and gloom for another scotland defeat, and what do i get nothing.
Well some expect to come on when scotland win and see rainbows.
you just can’t please everyone;-)
Nawlite
It’s okay for RC (and his other names) to suggest our focus on 2012 is keeping new people away as that suits his agenda of shutting us up, but if we have to hide our intention of making others aware of the corruption and the Big lie, then I, personally, would say NO, I’m not prepared to do that.
Reasonable Chap etc haven’t earned the right to steer (!) or engage in debate on any new issues if they either can’t understand or refuse to see the truth of the cheating and liquidation. BP and others may disagree of course.
======%%%======
I’d ask nawlite if he actually noticed that the blog post (above), Big Pink and other posters shared my view regards the effects you mention of sustained focus on 2012. For all me being called a troll, James Traynor or some kind of Bot., it seems as though my thoughts were considered accurate by the heid yins, however difficult that might be to stomach. I don’t expect your thanks but don’t be wilfully blind and just selectively call me out, the easy target.
The accusations of being some kind of PR plant over the past few months were laughable. There is a saying something along the lines of …When your enemy are making a mistake let them get on with it… and that IMO is exactly how SFM would be seen in recent times by any opposition PR assessment.
What got me involved was Omnishambles I (2020). When Fairness and Integrity were put to the side, forgotten about, shelved. Just as scrutiny for the governing body involved wasn’t required or much discussed. Nothing to see, I’m all right Jack. Self-interest and the economic imperative (for most) won the day.
Now the focus on Integrity returns. Self-interest and the economic imperative are back oot the windae. Auldheid said that Res12 is about the SFA, I strongly disagree and would ask for some honest reflection. The collective effort primarily see things through the same colour of prism as SFM wears. If that collective effort won their case at some stage on the legal journey, then fair enough, but they haven’t and the outlook is bleak.
The latest res12 issue for the Celtic AGM is at least current. But what happens when it is voted down in what I read somewhere is being called by the PLC, a ‘Final Vote‘ on the matter?
You would have all footballing authorities, all football clubs, the legal system, the media saying one thing. You’d have exhausted legal possibilities. Yet this truth doesn’t apply on here or is even considered. Counter opinion is fine but you can’t credibly claim to own the truth. It is an opinion, an interpretaion that failed at the official level.
Moving forward will be complicated. There is an existential threat to clubs coming down the road. (I note the focus/speculation is on one clubs numbers).
Reasonable Chap
For the avoidance of doubt, I have never experienced a moment of convergence with any of your thoughts.
Although I agree you are no PR plant. Just a troll.
Another share issue over ibrox way. Will they have time for just one more before christmas?
What got me involved was Omnishambles I (2020). When Fairness and Integrity were put to the side, forgotten about, shelved.
reasonablechap 19th November 2020 at 08:17
……………
What fairness and integrity was put to the side?
To state the obvious…
for those who have a preference for SFM to be 'less focused' if you like on 2012, in practise it could be challenging, IMO.
Just yesterday we had a Phil story alleging some HMRC difficulties at Ibrox.
This is whilst RIFC is very deliberately delaying the issuance of its '19/'20 Accounts, [or failing to secure sign-off by the Auditor Campbell Dallas.]
HMRC issues [alleged] and the delay of accounts [deliberate] sounds rather familar.
I have hesitated to post about these 2 RIFC stories as I'm now conscious that this site has a need to develop.
But, is it not fair to say that the most interesting / controversial stories for debate will continue to emanate from Ibrox – if only as a result of its financial uncertainty?
Using discussion threads for the site would indeed give readers a choice, but I'd expect that most activity would revolve around RFC/TRFC related threads?
To counterbalance: threads could give the opportunity for more focus on other areas e.g. the SFA as an organisation – and its personnel.
The SMSM simply doesn't ask questions of the SFA and most supporters probably aren't aware just how dysfunctional and inept it is as our governance body.
Just as RTC/SFM aimed to fill a knowledge gap amongst supporters about RFC/TRFC, SFM could do likewise with regard to the SFA?
gunnerb 18th November 2020 at 15:13
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54987144
I have emailed BBC news and pointed out that the parent company at the time was Wavetower now known as The Rangers Fc Group and it is still a going concern. Hopefully they will make some attempt at correction.
———————————————————————————————–
Me too, via their complaints procedures
Cluster One 18th November 2020 at 22:18
Yes , sir , we can boogie . It's the football that's the problem .
Let the whitabootery begin .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55004563
JC and Scotland's open Shame( The Big Lie ) is one of the main reasons I visit this blog. Change is most welcome but the continuing lie should always take main stage imo. This level of cheating with no punishment mocks every football fan in this country. To lose an EBT verdict at a SC (which confirmed that these payments were basically wages and these were not disclosed to SFA which meant roughly 55 players were registered illegally and the SFA to this day have not addressed this verdict in any way is absolutely disgraceful..More worrying is WHY they have not approached this level of cheating. Only in Scotland and only for one team. As mentioned at beginning thanks to John Clark and this blog.
Never forget the damage this club caused our game and still are imo.
Shame on our country the SFA and smsm.
It's plain that whatever cosmetics may change on SFM, the fundamentals will remain the same. An echo chamber that calls counter opinion trolling, unless it comes from Easyjambo, then it is politely ignored.
I'll leave you to it after one last suggestion…..A name change.
One that more accurately reflects activity and focus. One that is more truthful.
Rangers Football Monitor (RFM) or maybe Sevco Football Monitor would go down better and enable you to stay with 'SFM'.
RC
There you go again ?
Seriously off topic (I know!), but I must try 'moving forward' with this by sharing with the community-
I ordered a ppv pass from Hibs for Saturdays upcoming game and the £15 was deducted from my account by said Hibs. So far – so good!
When I went in earlier today to check when coverage started (properly signing in with my username and password), I was informed on screen that I had not purchased a ticket after all!
After fruitless phone calls and e-mails (the Hibs streamline service e-mail address is 'undeliverable to' (?) – although clearly in their T & C).
An online enquiry has not yielded any results either!
At least that's off my chest…
… and while I'm at it, since I'm not in the best humour …
RC – jist beat it!
reasonablechap 19th November 2020 at 20:08
Usually I just ignore you but your solution of " a name change" has me crying with laughter , I've lost count of how many times you have changed your name as a solution to your forum issues and am at pains to point out that it has been less than successful . What was that definition of insanity again ? (rhetorical question)
reasonablechap 19th November 2020 at 20:08
All you have to do is admit that you feel guilty that you and other RFC fans stood by and let your club die , and that you would like folk to view the new club to which you transferred your allegiance as the same as the one that died . I'll miss the TD now it's been restored .
Cluster One 19th November 2020 at 10:16
'..Another share issue over ibrox way.]
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Yes, Cluster One, and a meaningless kind of one, on 17 November: a lousy 5,044,960 @2p, bringing in a measly £100,899 in cash. (Maybe there's a wee bill to be paid for work done for the successful planning application, about which I read this morning in Halliday's 'report' in the 'Scotsman'
No mention of the name of the purchaser, but probably no one 'new'. Maybe Gibson?
Number of shares now in issue is 322 ,196, 912.
John Clark 19th November 2020 at 22:10
Where are you getting your figures from JC.
Have they not been using 20p as the selling price.
@JC
I think the sum raised is 1m rather than 100k however it is noticeable that money is being raised via shares rather than loans possibly for accounting reasons or maybe because there is nothing left to offer as security. The charges from Close are still valid which indicates that loan has yet to be repaid . I do have to acknowledge that they have dug deep to keep SS Sevco afloat however they have continued to spend recklessly with €8m on Roofe and Itten in August . Spending money on players instead of paying taxes is a dangerous game and should the gamble not pay off then our Blazers are complicit for not introducing FFP into our game. The irony of ironies would be failing to get a euro licence for breaching the limits set by uefa which they must be sailing very close to.
valentinesclown 19th November 2020 at 18:32
Never forget the damage this club caused our game and still are imo.
…………….
I read something the other day.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/19904760
SPL has coped with loss of Rangers, says Neil Doncaster.
When you add that to the.
Spiers on Sport: Regan admits to an Armageddon no-show.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/13140632.spiers-on-sport-regan-admits-to-an-armageddon-no-show/
……..
You have to wonder if Doncaster and Regan ever look back and wonder was all the panic and rule bending worth it? at the time was their ears being bent so much they paniced themselves into believing it was all about the rangers.
John Clark 19th November 2020 at 22:10
How was the break;-)
Was wondering how many share issues they have had since 2012 and how much they have raised?
normanbatesmumfc 19th November 2020 at 12:03
14
2
Rate This
gunnerb 18th November 2020 at 15:13
……..
Also. Waiting on reply
@C1
these are the issues after the initial offer in Dec 2012
they have gone from 65m shares to 327m at varying rates ,the majority of which in the last few years at 20p each.
At this rate of printing the will be on course to take the current World record for creating worthless paper away from Robert Mugabe.
17 November 2020
1 November 2020
30 September 2020
13 November 2019
24 September 2019
5 August 2019
28 June 2019
3 October 2018
Appointment of King 18 May 2015
18 September 2014
1 July 2014
Homunculus 19th November 2020 at 22:43
'..Have they not been using 20p as the selling price.'
Timtim 19th November 2020 at 22:46
'..I think the sum raised is 1m rather than 100k '
"""""""""""
My deepest apologies to all and sundry for my misreading of 0.2 Never been a great figures man!
The upside is that even more dire must be the ready cash situation of the cuckoo club!
But I'm still a wee bit embarrassed
@bect67
A few weeks ago I bought my grandson a ppv pass (not at Hibs) when he was unwell and unable to get out. He was also subsequently unable to gain access by the logging in method. When you signed up and paid you should have received an email confirmation with a link – clicking on that link should get you access. That worked for us anyway!
Thanks Gaslamp, I'll try that.
Timtim 19th November 2020 at 23:34
4 last year. One more can get squeezed in before christmas this year maybe.
From my fading memory the last AGM approved the right for up to 100m new shares to be issued , not sure where we are right now but I think they can still issue a few more and raise around 6m when needed. Not long to go before the December transfer market opens and Juventus , PSG and Barcelona can ready their multi million bids for Alfredo. According to Phil MacG the accounts have been extended to June so that stay of execution may tempt them to gamble even more.
The total number of shares is reported on the Companies House SH01 form as 327,241,872 whereas it should be 327,241,873. They still can't add. I'm guessing that the largest, if not sole, contributor to this latest purchase is Julian Wolhardt using East Harvest Ltd as the vehicle.
Yes, Phil suggesting that the Accounts filing submission has been extended by 6 months to June.
We were already aware that an extension was taken to 31st March, as per Companies House link below.
This link is still quoting a “Key Filing Date’ of 31/03/21.
Currently due to covid, a plc has access to a 3 month extension, so for RIFC it can move from 31/12/20 to 31/03/21.
But, I’m not seeing anything about a 6 month extension being available for a plc .
[A 6 month extension is only available for private company and LLP accounts, as per Companies House.]
Am I missing something?
Agreed though: a post-season, filing date in June would be much preferred at Ibrox.
===
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC437060/more
Has there been any further movement in the planning application for the Albion car park housing complex? It's been some time since it was lodged and I remember at the time the surprise at such a move given Close Bros outstanding charge.
Not so much Scottish football related, but of interest to those who have a penchant for the truth when it comes the fate of a certain football club liquidated in 2012.
In a nutshell: former Chelsea owner Ken Bates was a real scallywag. In the early 90s Chelsea were mired in debt and Bates did the dishonourable thing, a switcheroo to a newco before liquidating the original 1905 incorporated club – renaming it CFAC Ltd before the deed was done (sounds familiar eh?). Club dissolved in 1992.
Whilst the new Chelsea have become one of europe’s leading teams, since 1992 the old club lay buried 6 feet under, formally dissolved – deceased – no more (a fate that will soon befall Rangers 1872, once the liquidators have completed their work).
Until a few months ago….
6th May 2020 to be precise. “We consent to an order being made in the terms of the above draft restoring the name of CFAC Ltd to the Register of Companies.” Now according to Companies House, company no. 00084348 – incorporated in 1905 – is “active”.
Active? It seems resurrection exists!
So many questions.
If after almost 30 YEARS a club can return from the dead, would a similar opportunity exist – in perpetuity it seems – for Rangers 1872 to return from the grave? Did Dave King not refer to doing something similar a year or two ago?
If in Chelsea’s case, a group of fans acquire the 1905 club and apply to join the FA – could they claim, in the eyes of the law, continuity with the original club that was bumped off by the awful Bates in 1992?
What possible purpose could this resurrection serve? Sevco’s eyes will be widened by this i have no doubt. Nothing would surprise me in this saga.
Sevco accounts are out. I'm sure more learned analysts that I will comment in due course, but headline figure for me: Operating loss for the year increases by a massive 37% up to £15.9 million.
And the authorities will do nothing.
Before getting into Notes and numbers;
Auditor is in Renfrew: Azets Audit Services.
Never heard of them.
Campbell Dallas wouldn't play ball then…?
If anybody wants a read –
https://www.rangers.co.uk/article/annual-report-and-accounts-and-notice-of-2020-agm/1RoXtgfv66hyiAbwnX8Eff
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/18888141.rangers-post-15-9million-loss-ibrox-revenue-player-costs-rise-last-financial-year/?ref=twtrec
……………
A bit of a loss.
Always bad news late on a Friday night with this lot.
Note 28
And for the second year, the RIFC Notes fail to disclose an estimate – or a range of estimates – relating to the SDI 'Contingent Liability';
"The Company has dealt with its estimated liabilities… when calculating its accruals."
Due to the materiality of the expected claim from SDI, that is rather misleading, to put it mildly, IMO.
That’s a staggering 80million pound plus losses since 2012, with this season expected to go nearer 20 million, and as stated if SDI are in along with Hummel et al, for their slice of the confetti pizza, then that’s just mind boggling, and I can’t see how that can remotely pass Uefa FFP, even with the current relaxations.
Acquisition and disposal of player registrations The Group contracted for the purchase of seven permanent player registrations in addition to the temporary registrations of one player on loan. The amount payable in respect of above amounts to £15.4m, after taking account of direct costs. The Group also disposed of ten player registrations on a permanent basis, one registration on loan and became entitled to sell on fees on player registrations previously disposed. The amount receivable in respect of above totaled £1.0m.
These are post balance sheet events so 14.4m can be added to the 15.9m loss for a clearer picture , this is a case for gamblers anonymous. Anyway it's nice they are actually out and should give us something to chew over. The Azets audits services mentioned by Stevie BC is an interesting one to start with.
A further facility provided by Laird to the Company of £5m is being charged interest at 8% on an accruing basis. So that's 400k/yr for King (A real Rangers* man)
The Club is currently engaged in legal proceedings over disputes with a former employee. The case is due to be heard in Court in the first quarter of 2021 with any sum to be paid or received by the club in respect of the actions to be determined at that time. The club is rigorously pursuing its own claim and having taken legal advice is confident that the hearing will find in favour of the club.
Anyone any idea who this could be ? Warburton/Weir are the only ones I can think of who left with unresolved issues( seems a long time ago for this to go to court now)
“Campbell Dallas joined the Azets family in 2017.” according to the Azets website.
brian_d84 20th November 2020 at 21:08
'..What possible purpose could this resurrection serve?..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Puzzle ye not, brian_d84!
There is no time limit on claims for personal injury damages from even a dissolved and struck off company!
As long as the Court ,to which the application for 'restoration' to the Register is made ,is happy that any such claim would not fail by reason of it being time-barred for other reasons, it can order 'restoration'.
It appears that someone wants to sue for damages from the dissolved and struck off Chelsea FC( company number 00084348), so it has to be restored to 'legal' life for the purposes of that litigation.
I assume that when the litigation is concluded or abandoned or whatever, the Registrar will be ordered to re-dissolve it!
If the Liquidators had finished their business then the likelihood is that there are no 'company assets' available out of which damages could be paid if the claimant wins the case.
The interesting thing will be to see those who were directors of the dissolved company being personally held liable for any damages!
As said before, I am not a lawyer ( as my humble living standards bear witness to!
), but do have a read at Section 1029 et seq of the Companies Act 2006 and see whether I am way off beam. If I can read .2 of a pound as 2 pence rather than 20p I sure as hell can get hold of the wrong end of the stick when reading the language of Acts of Parliament!
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/1029
RIFC is still a plc, but not listed.
If it was listed it would certainly have to make a public statement about a change in external auditor.
A bit like going from Puma to Castore, RIFC has downgraded to a relatively small audit outfit, (franchise?)
On the face of it, this changeover of auditor seems like a rush job – and which is inconsistent with the available deadline extension for Accounts submission to March.
So, why 'rush' out the Accounts now with a new auditor?
Also, just an observation, which might not mean anything in the great scheme of things, but…
This 'new' RIFC auditor Azets Audit Services has a Renfrew addresses: near Braehead in a building called Titanium, per link below.
The exited auditor Campbell Dallas has an office in the same building.
Convenient, if nothing else I suppose?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/TITANIUM,+Kings+Inch+Pl,+Renfrew+PA4+8WF/@55.8718118,-4.3671574,19z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x48884f465a97a785:0x8850d027f3a325f7
melbournedee 20th November 2020 at 23:13
“Campbell Dallas joined the Azets family in 2017.” according to the Azets website.
=======
Good spot.
So it’s mibbees the one and the same office?
Campbell Dallas no longer wanted its name associated with the RIFC Accounts?
[But still wants the fees?]
Apparently a rebrand.
https://scottishfinancialnews.com/article/campbell-dallas-and-scott-moncrieff-to-rebrand-as-azets
Adding some details to Phil’s latest post about outstanding taxes, Note 16 in the accounts reveals Social security and other taxes at 30th June stood at £9,702k, up from £2,906k last year, nearly a £7 million increase.
The accounts state that they have used government schemes to defer payments of VAT and social taxes – no idea if any amounts are overdue, but still have to be paid at some stage.
“Rangers” apparently lose more money than Croesus.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55024741
oh dear.
how sad.
never mind.
discuss.
fitbawfan 20th November 2020 at 23:39
Apparently a rebrand. https://scottishfinancialnews.com/article/campbell-dallas-and-scott-moncrieff-to-rebrand-as-azets
=====
Thanks: so no change in auditor at all then.
Well! Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!
"We are grateful to the clubs who supported our resolution for an independent investigation into the governance of the game in this country." (Douglas Park, in his 'Chairman's Report')
He is bloody lucky that there has( not yet!) been any 'independent investigation ' by the SFA into the disgusting 5-Way Agreement,
or by the FCA into the claim in the RIFC plc Prospectus that the football club which they punted to potential investors as being the deservedly and famously successful RFC of 1872 foundation and not the gimcrack new entity brought into being in 2012 and admitted into football as a new football club in that year!
The sheer brass- necked-ness of those guys on the Ibrox boards is unbelievable.
But, of course, they have the grip on the cojones of the Football Authorities as having forsworn their offices of trust as the guardians of Sorting Integrity in a sordid dereliction of duty and abandonment of honesty, truth and principle.
For as long as the Big Lie persists, what is the point of Scottish Football?
We would never know what 'fixes' were in place at any given time, arranged for commercial, money-making reasons, with no honest governance of the Sport.
It's as fundamental as that.
I love this bit:
"As stated in note 1 the risk that key cash flows are not achieved as forecast, along with the absence of a binding debt facility for any shortfalls, indicate that a material uncertainty exists that may cast significant doubt on the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern"
If you were a creditor of RIFC plc, would you not right away be looking for the money you were owed after reading that??
I think I would be in there quick, afore they opted for Administration and ducked and dived to save their personal monies.
Finance Report
The year in review was affected by the curtailment of the 2019/20 season, which meant that from March to June there was no football, or corresponding matchday revenue. As well as that lost revenue from the last five home league games, and three months of non-matchday income from the Stadium, the Club also committed to giving refunds to season ticket holders and hospitality clients. Some of those understandably opted to take a refund, while most left their money within the Club, which we are very grateful for. We are extremely grateful also to all the Club Partners who continued to support the Club throughout the remainder of the season.
The Group has submitted a claim on its Business Interruption insurance for losses caused by COVID-19, the curtailment of the 2019/20 season and the ongoing pandemic, which continues to impact a number of revenue streams and the use of the Stadium. The scale and timing of any claim is uncertain, however we have recognised amounts received from our insurers against our claim to date. The Board continues to work towards getting fans back in the Stadium and will work with the government and football authorities to push for that to happen as restrictions allow. Having fans at football games is at the heart of what we do and is vital to the future finances of the business.
During the lockdown, starting in March, the Club and particularly the football department continued to operate as best it could so that when football re-started, the team was in the best position to hit the ground running. This set of accounts shows a further £11m invested in the first team squad, as well as further spending since the year end of 30 June. This investment is supported by the continued backing of the Board and its investors, as well as the fantastic support of the fans.
Revenue for the year was £59.0m, a 11% increase on the previous year, in spite of the impact of COVID-19.
The men’s first team’s run to the Round of 16 of the UEFA Europa League was responsible for £20.7m of that turnover, again showing that European progression, with its prize monies, broadcasting rights and matchday revenues, are vital to the current development of the team. Alongside that, the fans support was again superb, with season tickets selling out at 45,664, meaning season ticket income rose by £1.2m and hospitality revenues by £0.7m.
This support also then gives the Club the opportunity to capitalise on its commercial partnerships. Sponsorship revenues increased by 13% from the previous year as we added a host of new Club Partners.
Operating expenses excluding amortisation of players’ registrations increased by £10.3m, from £58.2m to £68.5m. That increase is driven mostly by a £6.7m increase in player payroll costs, as the Board continues to invest in the team as we strive for success on the pitch. There was also around £0.5m of additional costs relating to the Womens football department, after the Club committed to going professional for the coming SWFL season.
The operating loss for the year increased from £11.6m to £15.9m.
The gain from player sales was £0.7m in the year, compared to £3.1m in the previous year.
The Club carried out a further share issue during the year, converting £17.7m of shareholder loans to equity and further strengthening the Balance Sheet.
Douglas Park, Chairman
17 November 2020
My post of 0010
'Sorting' integrity? I needed a P .
The Big Lie …continued…
Annual Report 2020
Strategic Report
About Rangers International Football Club plc (the “Company”, “RIFC”, “RIFC plc” and including its Subsidiaries, the “Group”), and Rangers Football Club (the “Club”)
Rangers Football Club, formed in Scotland in 1872, is one of the world’s most successful clubs, having won 54 League titles, 33 Scottish Cups, 27 League Cups and the European Cup Winners’ Cup in 1972. The Club’s loyal and sizeable supporter base, both in Scotland and around the world, enables the Club to boast one of the highest percentages of season ticket holders in the UK. Playing at the 50,817 seater Ibrox Stadium and benefitting from the world class 37 acre Rangers Training Centre, Rangers have been a leading force in Scottish football for decades. This world class stadium, training infrastructure and a loyal and passionate global fanbase provide an excellent foundation for the Company.
The Club finished second in the SPFL (Scottish Professional Football League) Premiership in season 2019/20. The history, facilities and ambition of the Club are such that the Club remains a desirable destination for foreign and domestic players alike. The first team squad is managed by Steven Gerrard.
The Directors, in preparing this Strategic Report, have complied with s414A to E of the Companies Act 2006.
This Strategic Report has been prepared for Rangers International Football Club plc and its subsidiary undertakings (the Group) as a whole and therefore gives greater emphasis to those matters which are significant to the Group when viewed as a whole.
So an operating loss of just under £16 million (ignore the financing costs as they are largely notional relating to unpaid transfer fees which are discounted because they are interest free).
But as usual, the really interesting bits are on the balance sheet and notes to the accounts.
During the year to 30th June, the "investors" made new loans totalling £23.6 million and £1.8 million being repaid (mainly to Dave King). Another £4.5 million from "investors" has been needed since 30th June.
All of the share issues, including those from July to November 2020, were from conversion of loans – no additional cash flowed into the company's coffers other than the loans detailed above.
In spite of the loan injections, there remained £15.5 million payable for players bought up to 30th June and a further £15.4 million for players acquired since 30th June. Thats over £30 million due for the squad currently playing at Ibrox.
Government schemes for the deferral of VAT payments has seen the amount due for Social security and other taxes increase to £9.7 million, up from £2.9 million in 2019 and needing to be paid in the coming months.
Every year, we remark that the funding required to keep this business afloat looks insurmountable, but each year directors/investors step up to keep things solvent. The Directors are forecasting that they will need only £8.8 million for season 2020/21, but that must be predicated on an extended Euro run and player sales. The club's operating performance and current commitments for player transfer fees suggest a much bigger deficit.
sannoffymesssoitizz 21st November 2020 at 00:44
Rangers Football Club, formed in Scotland in 1872, is one of the world’s most successful clubs, having won 54 League titles, 33 Scottish Cups, 27 League Cups and the European Cup Winners’ Cup in 1972
It is a fact of Scots Law: that very club – a separate legal entity – sits currently in liquidation and yet they can get away putting that lie on a legal document. Why?
What use is the law of the land when it allows that blatant, criminal mistruth to stand? How can this company claim credit for the ill-gotten gains of another entirely separate company over which they have no legal control or interest?
Now I will hold my breath whilst I wait for the media to ask those questions…. I jest of course. I do not have a death wish. If the MSM address those questions in today’s media, I am Donald Trump.
The release of the financials from Ibrox, indicate the continuing, unchanging approach of the Rangers business. Essentially, spend every penny they have, and lots they don't and gamble on achieving the promised land of group stage CL to avoid financial implosion.
This is a strategy, which is dangerous, risky and hazardous, but having been here previously, with the other company/club, which also operated out of Ibrox( and we all know what happened to them) it suggests something more psychological, something more akin to a chemical dependency, a malaise that they are unable to rid themselves of?
So, now we await the denouncement of a season, where the uncertainty of COVID stalks our world, let alone the fitba arena. Literally, anything could happen down Ibrox way, literally anything, including winning a treble, achieve CL group stage qualification, sell El Buffalo, make money, cover their costs and live happily ever after……
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18888224.going-concern-question-rangers-annual-pre-tax-losses-rise-18m/
Auditors have raised a 'going concern' warning as Rangers announced pre-tax annual losses of £17.793m.
So the Evening Times say 15.9m and its sister paper the Herald say it's 17.8m
What's 2m between siblings ?
The Accounts look familiar now: red flags everywhere and further, eye-watering losses.
By any reasonable measure, RIFC is STILL operating an unsustainable business model. But, if the Directors and shareholders want to continue digging deep to keep RIFC afloat, then that’s their choice. Nothing learned from 2012 and hubris remains front and centre at Ibrox.
However, as in 2012, it’s not just about the Ibrox club. What if TRFC hits the buffers mid-season and unable to complete SPL fixtures, or cup games – or what if European fixtures cannot be completed by TRFC…?
The risk is not just to TRFC, but to the Scottish game as a whole.
So, that’s where our governing body comes in: to proactively manage this risk, created by 1 club of 42.
Nothing learned from 2012 and wilful ignorance remains front and centre at Hampden.
And to think some wanted the SFM to take another direction as the Ibrox debate was becoming old hat. Well when accounts are released on a Friday night and the news is grim, you would think a previous person on this site were sent to to distract attention away from incoming.
Just a Tic fan been paranoid i suppose.
bigboab1916
RC et al are in the basement, and will likely not emerge till the coast is clear i.e. people stop posting about TRFC accounts methinks (and with other guff/deflections).
bigboab1916 21st November 2020 at 12:03
And to think some wanted the SFM to take another direction as the Ibrox debate was becoming old hat. Well when accounts are released on a Friday night and the news is grim, you would think a previous person on this site were sent to to distract attention away from incoming.
Just a Tic fan been paranoid i suppose.
================
– In hock to Hector again?
– Taxpayers money being used to enhance the squad again?
– Wage bill gone up by millions
– Millions needed to see out the rest of this season and all of next.
– Media blaming it all on Covid
– Same media critical and snide about Celtic's accounts a few weeks back showing a small profit
I really don't think any Celtic fan, or indeed any other fan, could ever be paranoid enough. 'Rangers' now need Champions League Group Stage money every bit as much as they did in 2011. I really can't find a way to describe how much all of this stinks.
The PR spin begins in earnest, in The Sun;
"MIND THE GAP Rangers and Celtic finances compared as revenue gap between the two clubs is cut by £19million in ONE year
ANALYSIS Stewart Fisher 21 Nov 2020, 13:31
AT first glance, the headline figures as Rangers issued their annual report last night didn't seem too positive…"
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/6308812/rangers-celtic-finances-compared-revenue/
==========
Absolutely correct: TRFC revenues increased as CFC revenues dropped.
Absolutely relevant… if you simply look at this metric in isolation, and conveniently ignore RIFC's bottom line and Going Concern warnings.
Nevertheless, a valiant attempt to put lipstick on a pig!
From the Annual Report:
"The Board of Directors have discussed the Club’s forecast cash flow shortfall and have reached agreement with Douglas Park and John Bennett whereby they will provide additional loan facilities as necessary to meet shortfalls to the above requirements and any further amounts that may be required a result of variances to forecast cash flows. Further to this, Douglas Park and John Bennett have agreed to provide a formal facility with funds being made immediately available to meet short term cash needs with further funds to be made available to draw down as they are required." (page 15)
The Auditors : "As stated in note 1 the risk that key cash flows are not achieved as forecast, along with the absence of a binding debt facility for any shortfalls, indicate that a material uncertainty exists that may cast significant doubt on the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern." (page 21)
The word of two directors at the top of the marble staircase not being considered as 'binding'?
Good grief, whit's up wi' they auditors?
How dare they tell it as it is!
The SFA CEO Ian Maxwell was eagerly in front of the media and TV cameras recently, after the historic, Scotland Euro's qualification game.
…anybody know where he is today…?
Has Petrie ordered him back into the Hampden bunker?!
What do you do if you lose £11m in a financial year. You bring in new players, increase your players' wage bill by over 6m resulting in net losses the following year of £16m and cover the difference by more and more share issues and money coming in from the backers.
I think I've got my head around this financial fair play now.
It's not Celtic supporters who should be shouting about this, it's the clubs who miss out on league positions, prize money and European places.
Timtim 20th November 2020 at 23:10
The Club is currently engaged in legal proceedings over disputes with a former employee. The case is due to be heard in Court in the first quarter of 2021 with any sum to be paid or received by the club in respect of the actions to be determined at that time. The club is rigorously pursuing its own claim and having taken legal advice is confident that the hearing will find in favour of the club.
…………..
He’s still obviously not settled the manner of his Ibrox departure in his head, but not everything he says should be ignored.Interviewer about MW in March 22, 2018.
….
King did state the matter had been resolved(but you know DK)
……
Mark Warburton sep 20, 2019.
QPR Manageragain repeated his affirmation that neither he nor Davie Weir resigned from their position back in 2017.
……
Could be our old friend mark, but it has taken a long time
Cygnus X-1 21st November 2020 at 09:22
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The release of the financials from Ibrox, indicate the continuing, unchanging approach of the Rangers business. Essentially, spend every penny they have, and lots they don’t and gamble on achieving the promised land of group stage CL to avoid financial implosion.
……………..
Aye you just turn up and qualify. Ask celtic how that goes. The number of clowns down ibrox way who believe they can just win the league and qualification for the champions league is a given.can have your head spinning. Delusion on a grand scale down there. You would have thought they had learned a lesson watching another ibrox club clinging to that hope.
John Clark 21st November 2020 at 14:27
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18888162.douglas-park-predicts-10million-covid-impact-rangers-addresses-calls-hampden-governance-changes/
……..
DOUGLAS PARK believes Rangers will be adversely impacted by more than £10million due to the Coronavirus pandemic this season.
The Ibrox board released the financial figures for year end June 30 on Friday night as RIFC plc posted a loss of £15.9million on a revenue of £59million.
…………….
Blame it on the covid and not the overspending or failure to cut the cloth.
Douglas Park believes TRFC will be adversely affected by etc etc (The Herald Scotland)
Just noticed that the article was (copied and pasted from PR?) by Christopher Jack – Senior Rangers Writer it says!
Now there's an intriguing title!
Who, may I ask in my ignorance, is the Senior Celtic Writer for said newspaper?
Cluster One 21st November 2020 at 18:40
Blame it on the covid and not the overspending or failure to cut the cloth.
========================================
And it's not changing any time soon.
"At the time of preparation, the forecast identified that the Group would require £8.8m by way of debt or equity funding by the end of season 2020/21 in order to meet its liabilities as they fall due with further funding of £14.4m required by the end of season 2021/22. The first tranche of funding is required from investors before the end of November 2020."
A question for those who understand these things, surely the loss is actually a bit higher than is being reported.
OPERATING LOSS (15,897)
Profit on disposal of players’ registrations 684
Other charges (206)
Finance costs (2,374)
LOSS ON ORDINARY ACTIVITIES BEFORE TAXATION (17,793)
The "Finance cost" is not included in the "Operating Loss" so have to go in as a separate item, giving a higher overall figure for "LOSS ON ORDINARY ACTIVITIES BEFORE TAXATION".
Sorry if I have picked that up wrong.
I believe the true loss is a LOT higher than is being reported
Taxes deferred , wages deferred , loans mounting up and court cases coming to a conclusion. They are well over the uefa limit for a licence for next season , time someone in authority had a word.
Timtim 21st November 2020 at 23:28
'..They are well over the uefa limit for a licence for next season'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Timtim, that has, allegedly, never bothered the ars.s of the SFA licensing committee whose decision in a certain year the SFA refuses even to investigate even in the face of abundant evidence that they got it wrong!
bect67 21st November 2020 at 20:16
'..Senior Rangers Writer it says!.'
""""""""""""""""""""""
Late of a very pleasant Sunday evening, I felt I just had to send a message to the 'Herald'
"To:letters@theherald.co.uk
Sun, 22 Nov at 00:03
Dear 'Herald'
What are you about? 'Senior Rangers Writer'??
You need to explain yourself, I think.
Have you a Senior Writer for any other club?
Are you paying Jack, or is he or 'Rangers' paying you?
Honest to God, what are you like?
JC
Homunculus 21st November 2020 at 22:36
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Cluster One 21st November 2020 at 18:40
Blame it on the covid and not the overspending or failure to cut the cloth.
========================================
And it’s not changing any time soon.
“At the time of preparation, the forecast identified that the Group would require £8.8m by way of debt or equity funding by the end of season 2020/21 in order to meet its liabilities as they fall due with further funding of £14.4m required by the end of season 2021/22. The first tranche of funding is required from investors before the end of November 2020.”
…………….
And add the cost of 150 year celebrations for a new club. feck it throw in a hotel and fan zone also. In for a penny in for a pound.
…………………….
The first tranche of funding is required from investors before the end of November 2020.”
…..
Right, who’s turn is it? I did it last time.
Naw ye didny, i did it.
Awe feck.
……….
Dave king was smart enough to get away.
Dave King was smart enough to use company funds to fly him first class to the UK from South Africa so he could go and watch Liverpool play , use company funds to fight pointless and self inflicted court cases which he lost , step down as CEO but remain the largest shareholder ,smart enough to get 8% interest on a 5m loan when every other investor is getting worthless share certificates and smart enough to be hailed as a messiah instead of the pariah he really was . However this doesn't prove he was smart it does show the people he was fleecing were very gullible.
Looking at Xenforo as a new Forum platform;
https://xenforo.com/community/
Have a butchers and let me have some feedback. The platform will cost around £300 to buy licences so we don’t want to make any rash decisions if folk don’t like the look of it.
Important you guys let me know if this looks right for us.
Other examples at
https://www.salmonfishingforum.com/forums/ and
https://www.flyfishing.co.uk/
No sniggering at the back 🙂
Big Pink 22nd November 2020 at 12:12
Looking at Xenforo as a new Forum platform; https://xenforo.com/community/
Have a butchers and let me have some feedback
Other examples at https://www.salmonfishingforum.com/forums/ and https://www.flyfishing.co.uk/
No sniggering at the back
=======================
OK, I'll bite…
Salmonfishing example has sunk / not accessible.
Flyfishing example looks fine: intuitive navigation and graphics ok. I presume adverts come with this option?
I guess the main factor is to minimise ongoing maintenance / moderation?
With numerous threads 'live' simultaneously, I guess that adds to admin. effort (? honestly don't know if that is correct).
A new platform would fit in with re-energising SFM, IMO.
Could I just welcome our newest poster J.R.Hartley to the forum.
UEFA has suspended FFP for the 2020 season and will combine 2020 and 2021 in their next financial assessments. Here is a Guardian article about it from July.
”Owners of top clubs will temporarily be permitted by Uefa’s financial fair play rules to put more money into their clubs, to cover increased losses caused by football’s shutdown due to the Covid-19 pandemic.
Uefa announced a series of “emergency measures” to acknowledge that clubs competing in the Champions League and Europa League, who must comply with FFP “break-even” limits, cannot do so this season because of drastic losses caused by the shutdown.
The principles accept that clubs can make losses greater than the permitted €30m over a rolling three-year period, and that owners can cover those losses. Uefa stressed, however, that it was still committed to encouraging good financial management by clubs, and the measures were aimed only at “neutralising the adverse effects of the pandemic”: lost ticket income while matches are played behind closed doors, and the potentially major loss of some TV, commercial and sponsorship income.
The current rules, intended to encourage clubs to live within the money they make and not pay excessive wages to players, limit clubs’ maximum losses to €30m over a three-year period, as long as €25m of that loss is covered by an owner. The new measures state that the current 2020 financial year will not be assessed at all under FFP procedures, and will instead be rolled up into 2021, and the two years assessed together as a single financial period.
Uefa sources confirmed that clubs would be allowed losses in excess of €30m as long as they show this was caused by falls in revenues because of the shutdown. Clubs will be able to cope with their own increased losses however they responsibly can, including by owners putting money in, either in loans or shares. Uefa said these emergency measures were intended to “give clubs more time to quantify and account for unanticipated loss of revenues”.
The umbrella organisation Football Supporters Europe, which comprises Uefa-recognised fans’ groups across the continent including in Britain, has called for supporters to be fully engaged in processes for financial and governance reform after the crisis. Describing football’s structures as “flawed, unfair and unsustainable”, FSE said: “There can be no ‘return to normal’.”
The FSE statement, signed by England’s Football Supporters’ Association, Supporters Direct Scotland and other groups from across Europe, described fans as “the lifeblood of the game” and objected to artificial crowd noise played by broadcasters over matches behind closed doors.
“Empty stadia are a direct consequence of a public health crisis that has impacted every single one of us, and the absence of fans cannot be compensated for by a computer simulation aimed at the amusement of television audiences,” the statement said.
incredibleadamspark
Thanks for that. Of course Scottish clubs, with their higher dependence on gate income, will have an easier time demonstrating losses as a consequence of Covid than most.
BP, I took the bait and posted some feedback on the platform examples given, but my post disappeared into the ether – and when I retried I got the dialog box "Duplicate Comment".
I didn't swear in the post, honest.
Just mentioning in case others have similar issue.
StevieBC
Went into Spam 🙂
I feel the present format of SFM is just grand.
I like it’s simplicity of presentation, ease of access and search, and accessibility.
The thread format which you give examples of and which can be seen right across the internet always end up as a discursive mess.
As a very rare contributor but constant reader, I recognise the value of a relatively small number of those who contribute frequently bringing their knowledge and interest to bear on eg the Ibrox accounts.
I know BP and Trisidium have bourne the weight of keeping the site going and that might be alleviated a bit by more of us chipping in a little more frequently both financially and making sensible comments ( that lets me out!).
Leave well enough alone I say.
Thanks for the feedback Stevie
One of the big things involved in this platform is that we could have sub forums which were club specific. A Hearts forum, an Aberdeen Forum, a Celtic Forum and so on.
Main forum which would replace the current thread would be the Mosh Pit or such like, to discuss a range of things, but the threads inside the forums (fora) would still be discrete.
Aurellio Zen
Hoping that the move would add to the facility, and not dispense with the main thrust of discussion. As I suggested earlier, we could still have a main thread that would mimic the current one. And of course we would still have headline posts – hopefully more of them.
hello all
just saying hi as someone who is new here and wish all the best.
As a previous contributor when the site was more varied and populated I wanted to put my tuppence worth in. Obviously these are only my observations and options and can be ignored or taken on board as seen fit.
I really like the idea of different forums for each team. There will always be the accusations of bias to one team, and it was a shame we lost a number of Hearts fans this year. So for that reason it would be good to have different threads for each club whilst also having the (hopefully more of) main blogs to comment on.
The resident troll who has had multiple usernames over the years de-rails a lot of the chat and as a fellow Rangers fan he does nothing to help my clubs image. A stricter vetting process would help clamp that out and whilst I appreciate the moderators difficult balance between free speech and censorship, it is so easy to see similarities in the way he writes that it is obvious he is the same troll and blocking such people would go a long way to keeping the site on track.
Like others have observed I do believe it has become a very “one topic” forum. The fact that those of us like me who believe Rangers to be the same club we have always followed get told “you KNOW your a new club” is frankly offensive. I made my argument on that 4 years ago here and I’m perfectly happy to take the “I appreciate your argument, I disagree but hey that’s life” and see no point in arguing further. A NC/OC thread was created for exactly that topic yet it only seemed that views contrary to the narrative on here were moved onto that while one poster in particular persists to bring it up on a daily basis.
Now I appreciate why 2012 and what happened to rangers around that time is such a huge point for so many so I’m not trying to bury the story by any extent – why not have it the top pinned post on the new forum to allow the site which was born out of the RTC to keep it front and centre, but by having other threads and topics it will open it up to a far larger audience than the echo chamber it is just now. It could be the main thread, the first thing people see when they come onto the website, but then threads on other topics wouldn’t have to be railroaded back to 2012 and an angry letter written by a contributor?
I want to also say credit to Andrew for his blog on the Scotland teams achievement. Whilst club level is always the bread and butter, the national team has always been where my real emotions are with. Regardless of my views on players or managers, the minute the 11 pull on the Scotland shirt I’m emotionally invested and I celebrate and commiserate with each and everyone one of them. The last major tournament we were in I was still in secondary school and after so many false dawns last week we finally managed to qualify and I won’t lie, the hangover on the Friday was substantial! As any website that calls itself “Scottish football monitor” there is no bigger story than the national teams success and credit to this site for putting it front and centre in the last blog.
I first joined and liked the idea of a Scottish football blog that was supposed to be independent and calling to account corruption within the Scotland game at all levels. As a Rangers fan I will be first to say that the lack of coverage and protection from the media and authorities of our difficulties a decade ago led to the awful years that followed, and I’m equally concerned that we have not learned our lessons and are heading down the same path as before! I’m not your typical rangers fan on FF who is so ignorant as not to see the sh** show that has been my club since the mid 2000’s, but even though I agree in a large part with many of the posters views on most things, because I don’t subscribe to the NC narrative I have always felt like an outsider. Particularly in the last 18 months it has become as I say a bit of an echo chamber for people of the same views which is why I (and I’m sure many others) have stopped contributing.
In summary, working with the limited budget and technological limitations I believe BP and Trisidium have done a sterling job with the blog, and the forum idea and suggestions I’ve outlined above could turn it into a genuine multi club forum and not just the fringe narrative it is just now.
Finally unrelated to any of the above I just want to say the people who contribute on here, regardless of their views, are for the most part respectful, articulated and polite. That’s not something often seen in forums.
Darkbeforedawn 22nd November 2020 at 16:21
Like others have observed I do believe it has become a very “one topic” forum. The fact that those of us like me who believe Rangers to be the same club we have always followed get told “you KNOW your a new club” is frankly offensive.
Sorry but how can the truth be offensive, quite willing to listen to your argument, but Charles Green never bought the history of a liquidated company.
Big Pink, should you and the others choose to deviate from the current format, which i tend to like I’d like to offer some options.
Like some others I read SFM daily and only post occasionally, I incidentally also subscribe to one of the flyfishing forums above (whoda thunkit flyfishing & football, but there you go) The Xenforo software that FFF uses works fine, albeit their adverts are in your face, (I know that they have to pay for hosting and understand they are trying to re-coup some expense) I just wish the ads were less in your face, so I didn’t have to use Ad blocking software in my browser (such as Noscript).
I notice SFM runs on Apache web server software, albeit on a Windows host operating system. I’m not sure if this is a hosting option (I’m assuming tucows) or it is incorrectly identifying itself, If there was an option for the guys running the site to use a Linux operating system, there are many free forum software out there that cost nothing to use such as Discourse https://www.discourse.org/ or you can pick any from the top fifteen at https://www.ubuntupit.com/top-15-best-forum-software-for-linux/
Just another option to save a bit on expense of running such a site.
Re the accounts – page 46 has an interesting entry on a "debt for £2.278M due from a single debtor" . Is this a claim against Big Mike? Someone else? £2.278M is a lot of tat if that is what it relates to….
Hope they are right about it being recoverable.
If it's not recoverable then does their loss for the year go up to £19.74M, almost double the previous year (£11.277M)?
A slightly concerning direction of travel especially in today's pandemic and economic environment.
On the brighter side are they not now the world leaders in the production of confetti? 🙂
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
My point was regardless of any topic or debate, on literally any subject it is offensive to be told what you believe. That you somehow believe with the narrative (whatever it is) and are deliberately denying it. Not just here but I find this often in any polarising debate like brexit, independence etc. “You KNOW xyz”. Call me wrong, call me an idiot but don’t presume to know what I think.
bigboab1916
Just to give you a 'heads up'
Our Lazarus has risen from the …?
Darkbeforedawn ( has been here before – basically antagonisng others (a la RC) who don't agree with him/challenge his views – only imho it has to be said
He's 'aye ready' (motto of Rangers 1872-1912) to 'noise you up'!
I have definitely been on here before but I would like to have thought I have never antagonised anyone! I try to be polite and respectful and if I have ever come across as antagonising I will apologise. I try and debate respectfully and do not close my mind of to listening to other viewpoints on any topic. I’m sure you don’t agree with me on much but I’m hope you don’t mean the antagonising comment
DBD
Ur yi hivin a laff?
incredibleadamspark 22nd November 2020 at 13:15
UEFA has suspended FFP for the 2020 season and will combine 2020 and 2021 in their next financial assessments. Here is a Guardian article about it from July.
….
The principles accept that clubs can make losses greater than the permitted €30m over a rolling three-year period, and that owners can cover those losses. Uefa stressed, however, that it was still committed to encouraging good financial management by clubs, and the measures were aimed only at “neutralising the adverse effects of the pandemic”: lost ticket income while matches are played behind closed doors, and the potentially major loss of some TV, commercial and sponsorship income.
………………..
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18888162.douglas-park-predicts-10million-covid-impact-rangers-addresses-calls-hampden-governance-changes/
DOUGLAS PARK believes Rangers will be adversely impacted by more than £10million due to the Coronavirus pandemic this season.
…………..
I wondered why park came out with a statement like that a day before the accounts came out.
Blame it all on the covid
Darkbeforedawn 22nd November 2020 at 16:21
The fact that those of us like me who believe Rangers to be the same club we have always followed get told “you KNOW your a new club” is frankly offensive.
…
Now I appreciate why 2012 and what happened to rangers around that time is such a huge point for so many so I’m not trying to bury the story by any extent.
…
As a Rangers fan I will be first to say that the lack of coverage and protection from the media and authorities of our difficulties a decade ago led to the awful years that followed, and I’m equally concerned that we have not learned our lessons and are heading down the same path as before!
…………..
What was it that happened to rangers around about that time?
What lack of protection did the authorities not give rangers?
What path would that be the club is heading down as before?
What lessons have not been learned?
I will agree with you that the lack of coverage from the media never helped the difficulties a decade ago. But the ibrox club have never helped themselves in that department with the lack of media coverage.
……
Hope i put my questions across as polite as i could
I must say that I like the site as is and I'm not keen on the layout of the example sites. Also I think that have multiple layers for individual clubs is unnecessary, there are plenty of fan club sites available. Personally I only read my own Club's sites and this one.
CO, I’ll hopefully attempt to address each of your questions in turn.
Firstly the way I wrote the point around “protection” was badly written. By that I meant we were protected by the media and the authorities and any bad news was dropped so as not to upset Murray. I did not mean we were not protected, quite the opposite.
From the late 1990s Rangers were operating on a business model of spending your way out of trouble. If only we spend x amount on players the the champions league holy grail will keep us right! We spent money we did not have, had a completely unsustainable business model and only cared about the results on the pitch. It ended in disaster in 2012 and it was lucky that we had enough fan base as to make buying the club viable or I wouldn’t have had a club to follow the last 8 years. We were under no scrutiny by the SFA or the media and although they thought it was for our own good, it was devastating. And the same SFA and same compliant media are doing the same now. Why have there not been more questions about this years terrifying accounts?
And for what lessons have not been learned; it’s a summary of all of the above. Spending money we don’t have, gambling on future success, pretending that we’re in rude health, a compliant media telling soothing stories, a governing body looking the other way. I’m sure I’ve seen that script before
Darkbeforedawn 22nd November 2020 at 21:35
Firstly
Are you saying then Murray had the media and the authorities protecting the ibrox fan base from any negative stories or information being released and in doing so kept Murray happy and kept the ibrox fan base in the dark?
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We spent money we did not have, had a completely unsustainable business model and only cared about the results on the pitch. It ended in disaster in 2012
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Winning all those trophies with a completely unsustainable business model that the fans only cared about the results on the pitch.Would seem to some not to be such a disaster.Most ibrox fans would believe it only ended in a disaster in 2012 as time caught up with this unsustainable business model.
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and it was lucky that we had enough fan base.
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For the SFA and SPL to panic and believe they would be lost to the game, that the SFA and SPL Tried everything in their power to help an ibrox club not to be lost to the game.
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I’m sure I’ve seen that script before.
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Would we still be seeing it again if the truth was told in 2012?
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@DBD
The club* and company* were incorporated in 1899 , that is acknowledged as fact and supported by documentation. incorporation means joined together made one and the same . If you accept the company* is currently being liquidated (which is supported by documentation and acknowledged as fact) then unless you can produce documentation to show the club* was unincorporated from the company* then you are in a state of denial (stage 1 of the Kubhler Ross model of grief) The reason the media and eventually the authorities started backtracking on declaring their demise (maybe you read it in the papers ) was Rangers* fans were not supporting the tribute act created by Green and their "old firmery" gravy train was heading for the buffers . Now if you choose to believe otherwise because reality is upsetting to you then I have no problem with that but you have to realise everyone else and that seems to be supporters of every other club in Scotland cannot pretend that Santa exists in order to placate you. Stages 2 to 5 can be tough but I'm sure you will get much support on here if you embark on that journey. You already know it's darkest just before dawn , walk towards the light , walk on walk on with hope in your heart , you won't walk alone .
Darkbeforedawn 22nd November 2020 at 21:35
From the late 1990s Rangers were operating on a business model of spending your way out of trouble. If only we spend x amount on players the the champions league holy grail will keep us right! We spent money we did not have, had a completely unsustainable business model and only cared about the results on the pitch. It ended in disaster in 2012 …
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You are missing the bit about failing to pay tax collected to HMRC, being placed into administration and HMRC rejecting a CVA, leading to liquidation.
So, funding the overspending by stealing from the taxpayer.
At least the new club seems to be funding the overspending itself.
Absolutely Homunculus. A shameful period in the club history. Hubris and utter contempt to everyone that wasn’t part of the club. An embarrassing phase that we should never be allowed to forget. I said many times in 2012 and beyond that we should have owned up, admitted to our mistakes, apologies profusely and asked for forgiveness. Instead we made ourselves out to be the victim lashing out at all. We were not the victim, we got punished for our transgressions and deservedly so. I genuinely believe had the club came out and admitted our failings and apologised then “moving on” would have been a lot easier. I also see the views of those who don’t want to “move on” as with a combination of the victim storyline and the continuing to spend money we don’t have it’s two fingers up to everyone else abiding by the rules.
Timtim, to be honest it doesn’t really have any impact on me that’s why I don’t see any benefit of arguing. I turn up (in normal times) at the gates of Ibrox and cheer on a team in blue as I’ve always done and with the same emotional investment. Even if UEFA and the SFA came out and said it’s a new team it’s semantics. It doesn’t stop the fact for me I have a team I’m emotionally invested in and can still follow. And I’m lucky as many others (maybe all other) teams in the situation the club would have folded. New club or same club, for me going to games, following it on the telly or reading about us there is nothing that feels different than before 2012. That’s why I’ve said by all means have it the main sticky on the forum, it’s clearly a huge deal to many, but I don’t believe it should be the full focus of the forum. I’m a rangers fan, and okay if it makes many people happier then I’ll agree with them all that we are a new club but it still feels bloody like the old one haha! And I think there is so much forensic analysis that this deserves more than to be just a fringe blog. And a forum for all of Scottish football, holding to account those in the wrong (and obviously so my club who have been at the centre of most controversies).
Firstly
Are you saying then Murray had the media and the authorities protecting the ibrox fan base from any negative stories or information being released and in doing so kept Murray happy and kept the ibrox fan base in the dark?
yes 100% that’s what I’m saying. Murray was the master of playing to the fan base. Fans revolt? Turn up at the stadium with a new player on the private jet. He basically bribed most journalists into following his message.
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Winning all those trophies with a completely unsustainable business model that the fans only cared about the results on the pitch.Would seem to some not to be such a disaster.Most ibrox fans would believe it only ended in a disaster in 2012 as time caught up with this unsustainable business model.
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looking short term I’d agree. But that was the problem, we looked short term at the weeks and days ahead, not the years as we should have.
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Would we still be seeing it again if the truth was told in 2012?
No and that’s where I agree with the majority on here, protocols should have been put in place after 2012. As it is neither the bodies nor the club have learned their lesson. And the accounts on Friday night show the precarious position of my club. An arrogant view that “screw it, if we go bust we’ll just shed our debts and start again”. Well what if next time no one is willing to buy the assets and the SFA won’t accept us into the league? I’m sure the Lehman Brothers thought they were too big to fail.
Darkbeforedawn 23rd November 2020 at 00:16
DBD , since you're happy too accept that the club you supported should have fessed up to cheating , do you think that titles won during that dartk period should be removed ? Re assigned ? Asterisked ? This list is not exhaustive ! You surely don't want to keep them ?
Darkbeforedawn 23rd November 2020 at 00:16
Well what if next time no one is willing to buy the assets and the SFA won’t accept us into the league?
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I believe they changed the rules and if this ibrox club goes bust, there won’t be the shambles of 2012 they will be kept in with sanctions.And if it happens even the sanctions will be bent not to hinder any new entity.
CO, I don't think it's just the change of rules this time. Didn't Charles Green cleverly set things up this time so that there really was a holding company (RIFC) so that if liquidation came calling again, the club, with it's own legal identity (TRFC) could in fact be said to continue to exist and therefore be sold as a going concern?
I'm not sure if they'd get away with that, as I recall that was the argument Southampton used to try to avoid a points deduction due to Administration. The FA refused because it was simply more of a shell than a true holding company i.e. the income/expenditure for one was the income/expenditure for the other. Remember, a true holding company exists to hold shares in a number of companies. That said, they might get away with it up here – it is the SFA, after all.
While I'm on, can I just say that when he last posted semi-regularly on here, I didn't think Darkbeforedawn was one of RC's predecessor-types. He didn't spout the same pish (!) and, as he shows again above, he admits he, for himself, chooses to treat the new club as if it's the old club. For me, that's a bit different from those who try to convince everyone else it IS the same club.
CO, I really hope that is not our “business model” to go down the route of shedding the debt, and pheonixing again.
I personally thought the accounts on Friday were terrifying. There are two scenarios that can play out. 1: win the league, qualify for the CL group stages and sell a player or two for +£10m. Wipe out the debt and then start on a more responsible business plan. 2: fail in any of the above and were looking at almost certain administration. Covid has helped us by allowing the deferring of some bills, but the outcomes remain the same – achieve the riches of the CL or bust. Leeds had exactly the same business model in the early 2000’s and a bout of food poisoning in their last game of the season almost finished them as a club and they had 20 long years to get back to where they were. Now we definitely could do the former – Celtics performances of late have given us the hope – but what a huge gamble! Especially in the uncertain landscape of Covid. A breakout amongst the first team, an injury crisis, a drop of form, a disallowed goal in a CL qualifier. Any of those could be enough to bring down the entire house of cards.
Now I don’t think it’s all bad news for Scottish football. We have a genuine title race on our hands for the first time in a decade. Both sides of the Old Firm are regularly competing in Europe and pulling our good results. The quality of play by my own team is as good as any since Advocaat. In Clark we have a thoroughly decent bloke who has just taken Scotland into the Euros which would have seemed impossible under McLeish. In the likes of Gerrard and Rodgers we have shown that Scotland can still attract big names. Despite all these positives the worry for me is the Scottish game is always only moments away from Armageddon.
phil's latest(rugger guy)
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/11/23/rugger-guy-does-a-deep-dive-in-to-rifc-year-end-accounts/#more-19084
Darkbeforedawn 23rd November 2020 at 17:47
1: win the league, qualify for the CL group stages and sell a player or two for £10m.
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If they sell their best players in Jan, they may then struggle in the league. But then again they have been trying to sell players for years and no one came calling.
Again if they sell their best players what chance does an unseeded ibrox club have of reaching the champions league group stages?
All we hear now is reaching the champions league group stages. Have any of the ibrox fan base looked at the teams that did not make the champions league group stages these last few years. Yet they believe they can do it first time asking. Delusion.
That kind of delusion killed the last ibrox club, they thought they could just turn up and qualify and banked on it. Have no lessons been learned by the ibrox fan base?Even if lessons have not been learned they can’t have forgotten. Because as they say we keep reminding them;-)
Cluster One 23rd November 2020 at 09:41
…
if this ibrox club goes bust, there won’t be the shambles of 2012 they will be kept in with sanctions.And if it happens even the sanctions will be bent not to hinder any new entity.
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IMO, it's fair to say that reasonable observers are further perplexed that individuals – seemingly – continue to pour private funds into the bottomless pit which is RIFC, and with a negligible chance of any financial return.
IMO, there is information – rather significant information – which must make sense of these Ibrox 'investments'.
And with the continued – externally audited – uncertainty around RIFC/TRFC's future, what would happen if TRFC maintained its 11 point lead through to say, February, and then entered Administration?
If the subsequent points deduction handed the 10IAR title to CFC… would that title require an asterisk?
nawlite 23rd November 2020 at 15:37
…………
May 30, 2012
What was decided.
Decision on transfer of spl share to newco to be made by all 12 clubs, not spl board.
Increase in sanctions for clubs entering administration.
Disciplinary action for any clubs failing to pay players on time.
Instant transfer embargo for any clubs failing to pay HMRC on time Extension of sporting sanctions for clubs whose parent company enters administration.
Withdrawn.
fixed two year ten point deduction for clubs whose share is transfered to newco.
Fixed penalty of 75% of spl income for three years for clubs whose share is transfered to newco. Clubs will instead decide punishment on a case by case basis.
……………………
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-football/10631856/Scottish-football-abandons-plans-to-automatically-relegate-clubs-in-administration.html
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Everything will be done to keep any ibrox newco again in the spfl
StevieBC 23rd November 2020 at 20:45
….
Now that would be funny.Just when the ibrox fan base look to see things improving on the field and the hope of a title, how strange would it be if events off field put a stop to it and handed it to celtic.
Would a we told you be ok, or a you never listen. Or would the blame game once more point outwards?
I can’t see that CO. Too many of the backers have put too much on the line that I’m almost certain they will find a way to keep the lights on and see out the season. Especially with COVID easing some of the rules around payment of taxes etc. Like I said in an earlier post it seems like a final gamble of throw everything at stopping 10 and getting an opportunity to qualify for the CL. I don’t think anyone will be sold in January and maybe not even in the summer. Then when the inevitable crash out of the CL (on the big IF we can win the league) there will be a panic and a fire sale.
As you point out the chances of us getting to the promised land are so low with the type of teams we would come up against. Add in the pressure on the manager knowing that failure could trigger an insolvency event. As I’ve said it is possible that this could all work out but the chances are low. It’s like going all in on poker with a pair of tens.
I must say that I like the site as is and I'm not keen on the layout of the example sites. I like the single thread approach – SFM does not seem to have sufficient comments/commenters to justify a multi thread forum. Also I think that have multiple layers for individual clubs is unnecessary, there are plenty of fan club sites available. Thanks BallyArgos.
To keep costs down, I would be pleased if we were transferred to free or low cost hosting and/and forum software – assuming all are able to deploy suitable ad-blocking software.
Personally I only read my own Club's site – CQN in my case, and this one.
Re. DBD at 22:35 on 22nd
"From the late 1990s Rangers were operating on a business model of spending your way out of trouble. If only we spend x amount on players the the champions league holy grail will keep us right! We spent money we did not have, had a completely unsustainable business model and only cared about the results on the pitch. It ended in disaster in 2012 and it was lucky that we had enough fan base as to make buying the club viable or I wouldn’t have had a club to follow the last 8 years. We were under no scrutiny by the SFA or the media and although they thought it was for our own good, it was devastating. And the same SFA and same compliant media are doing the same now. Why have there not been more questions about this years terrifying accounts? "
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I think this may be what you meant to say:
Since about 2015, Sevco have been operating on a business model of spending their way out of trouble. If only we spend x amount on players, win the league, skooosh the qualifiers and the champions league holy grail will keep us right! Sevco spend money they do not have, had a completely unsustainable business model and only cared about the results on the pitch. It ended in disaster last time, what will happen this time ?
Sevco are once again being given a free pass by the SFA, by UEFA and by the media. It will be devastating. Why have there not been more questions about this years terrifying accounts?
Like Jimmy Bones I have no particular desire to see threads for individual clubs. Most of us will probably log in to our own clubs forums for plenty of one-sided comment that is of little interest to others.
Multiple threads, to my mind, would focus on matters that affect most/a majority of clubs or to those who, while being fans of a certain club, also have an interest in other/wider aspects of the game in Scotland. Issues like overall management of the game, league reconstruction, the National team, how we are at producing domestic talent etc.
The T’Rangers saga will always have top billing but it would be nice for the site to live up to its name by having informative and intelligent debates about other aspects of the game.
Darkbeforedawn 24th November 2020 at 00:00
I can’t see that CO. Too many of the backers have put too much on the line that I’m almost certain they will find a way to keep the lights on and see out the season.
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It may only be me but that brings on a profound sense of deja vu with regards things that just won't be allowed to happen.
I’m not for one minutes saying it wouldn’t happen, I would just be surprised if, we are still in the hunt in new year, that the owners would not find some way of kicking the can down the road another few months until European qualifiers. They’ve managed it for 6 years so it would have to take a really serious impact on the investors personal situations to stop them putting more in in the hope of success. Even the future court cases Im sure would be appealed or stalled to push the can down the road, and the tax man will likely be more lenient than before Covid throughout next year. After the summer all bets are off.
While I am on I note that despite all the talk of deferring the submission of accounts and inference of hiding the fact that taxes were overdue, the T'Rangers accounts have no real surprises.
T'Rangers have since 2015 constantly filed their annual accounts to show up in December each year at with Companies House. This year is no different.
Releasing such news late on a Friday evening is par for the course for the Ibrox club. No one should be surprised.
The taxes owed referred to by Phil Mac are all there in black and white. As is the acknowledgement that the company has taken advantage of the relaxation and installment payments allowed by HMRC due to Covid. Nothing underhand going on.
There has been no change of auditors due to them having 'issues' signing off the accounts, just a name bureaucratic title change of the auditing company.
The operation is running on soft loans, as indicated by King some years ago and the gamble is wholly based on achieving success on the field and especially getting some money from European competition. The latter is, again, something that has been openly known for years.
'Rugger guys' contributions are interesting and informative but it really is just what we all know, a great 'can kicking' exercise of robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I have said for long enough it is a tightrope they are walking and any one or multiple events could topple them. No one can really predict when that could happen as they keep managing to inch along, step by step. It may happen when we least expect it. However there is always the chance they can make it to the other side before the rope snaps.
The problem is, at present, RIFC Plc are doing nothing 'wrong' in terms operating at a loss in the hope that there is light at the end of the Euro tunnel.
As discussed elsewhere they may actually benefit from Covid in that the footballing authorities may be less strict in reviewing financial operations of clubs over this period and giving everyone a period of grace.
It has to be remembered Hearts carried along with circa £20m debt for years before they went into administration.
Aberdeen were £15.9 m in hock in 2014 when they put together an investment package with new 'soft investors' being brought in.
I am sure other clubs have survived along similar lines in the past.
It is therefore difficult to pinpoint any particular wrong doing going on at Ibrox, even if it morally doesn't smell right when many other clubs are trying their best to simply keep their heads above water.
T'Rangers are, however clearly pushing everything to the extreme.
Darkbeforedawn 24th November 2020 at 00:00
As you point out the chances of us getting to the promised land are so low with the type of teams we would come up against. Add in the pressure on the manager knowing that failure could trigger an insolvency event. As I’ve said it is possible that this could all work out but the chances are low. It’s like going all in on poker with a pair of tens.
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House of cards i believe the term Dave king used
wottpi 24th November 2020 at 13:06
To be honest I was a bit surprised that Dave King was charging them interest at 8% on his recent £5m if that is true.
Hardly what one would describe as a "soft loan", particularly if it is not to be converted to equity.
I was also a bit surprised at the predicted shortfall for the next two seasons. There is clearly no intention of changing the way they operate as a business.
Homunculus 24th November 2020 at 15:15
To be fair to King he has put more money in that anyone thought he would at the outset.
Now he has no particular roll in dictating the clubs finances, if true, it seems reasonable to seek repayment with some form of interest in case the 'you know what' hits the fan. Plus it gives an air of respectability about the whole thing.
Like King I also can't see Ashley wanting to take any action that may result in his cash cow being killed. A drip drip of cash into your coffers is far better than having to take a pennies for pound deal if you end up crashing the bus.
As you say, the model of operation does not look like being altered, so if Park et al want to keep throwing their millions into the hands of others who already have millions then so be it.
Cant say it would be me, if in that position.
wottpi 24th November 2020 at 15:48
One of the obvious problems with that is that if any one these people find themselves short of cash then they may no longer be in a position to finance their hobby. Which is basically what you are talking about here, rich men's hobby
We know what happened when Murray's empire started to collapse.
Homunculus 24th November 2020 at 16:42
I'm surprised that Park, especially, has continued to provide funds to the extent he has and be named as the go to guy in the future.
Seems like madness to me but I have long said when you get to the top of that marble staircase they inject you with some form of substance that causes you to drift away from reality.
The other huge question is where were they all back in 2012.
If they were willing to commit then the way they are just now then the club would probably not have gone into administration and then liquidation.
It would not have had to spend the tax money it collected, including VAT in order to keep trading.
The support must really love what they are doing now, but surely that question must be on their minds as well.
Unless everyone thought that Whyte was just the man to shed the debt and rip everyone off and proper people could take over later, once he had done the unpalatable bit.
That would have to involve really not understanding HMCE’s position, or indeed the strength of feeling of the supporters of other clubs.
https://news.stv.tv/sport/spfl-asks-nicola-sturgeon-for-emergency-meeting-over-fans?top
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The Scottish Professional Football League has made a formal request to meet with First Minister Nicola Sturgeon to discuss the return of fans to football grounds.
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“Make no mistake, failure to get fans back in the very near future will sound the death knell for some of our best-loved clubs and no-one wants that.
…
This Death knell Mr Doncaster talks about, what is it he is concerned about? Would if have to be writing up all those new 5 way agreements, or would it be the hastle of league reconstruction proposals thrown into the mix as per usual or would it be having to read another ibrox dossier.
Cluster One 25th November 2020 at 14:16
'…will sound the death knell for some of our best-loved clubs and no-one wants that.
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Is there misprint , 'some' for 'one' , Cluster One?
Mr Doncaster has no doubt read the RIFC plc Annual Report and Accounts, and I suspect that he fears he will have on his hands another Liquidation from the SPL, and will have to cobble up another sporting fiction should the feckless, reckless pretendy 'Rangers of 1872' bite the Administration/Liquidation dust and joins the Rangers of 1872 when it loses its entitlement to play professional football , and some other bunch of chancers sets up a company, buys the 'assets' dirt cheap, begs for admission into a league as a new football club, and then tries to con the Market that that new club is the Ranger of 1872!!
There was no desperate willingness to save innocent clubs from the effects of the football decisions made because of the pandemic!
Cluster One 25th November 2020 at 14:16
The Scottish Professional Football League …
“Make no mistake, failure to get fans back in the very near future will sound the death knell for some of our best-loved clubs and no-one wants that."…
===========
Unless I've missed it, but has the SPFL actually asked the paying customers / supporters what THEY want?
Has the SPFL bothered to find out if fans are happy to return as before, or do they have further concerns / questions about how the SPFL can address covid risks inside/outside a stadium?
Has the SPFL attempted to reassure supporters that they could return safely, if given the ok from the government?
'Customer focus' remains an unknown term at Hampden.
Rip Diego Maradona
Greatest of my generation, perhaps the greatest of all time.
HS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyhKf9TP43I
Imagine if he had a right foot……
paddy malarkey 25th November 2020 at 18:57
…You would pay just to watch a warm up like that. you just don’t see that in the SPFL;-)
StevieBC 25th November 2020 at 16:42
'..Has the SPFL attempted to reassure supporters that they could return safely, if given the ok from the government?
'Customer focus' remains an unknown term at Hampden.'
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That's a very interesting question, if I may so, StevieBC.
Both in relation to the SPFL board , and in relation to the clubs who have been allowed a small number of spectators.
Did the clubs which have been allowed to have some supporters at their games actually ask their fan base beforehand whether they would be willing to attend a match, and provide details of how they planned to ensure 'safety', or did they just assume that their supporters would attend , the minute that they knew they could?
Likewise, did the SPFL board talk to the SFSA or the (SFA funded!) 'supporters direct 'association about the readiness of fans to return to physically attending games?
I don't know. They may very well have done.
Can anyone say for sure?
Cluster One 25th November 2020 at 22:25
..You would pay just to watch a warm up like that.'
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Cluster One,
Mrs C just this very minute came in to the kitchen and I played the wee video clip of yer man's warm-up.
She said, 'well, I'm sure there are plenty of circus performers who can do that with a ball'[not an exact quote]
"So there may be, my dear," I replied (in that wonderfully affected sexist Victorian way that I can from time to time adopt) " but no way could they transfer that skill onto a football pitch while being hacked and subjected to despairing tackles by less gifted players."
Mrs C gracefully having dispensed for me a drop of old Grant's concoction and the merest soupcon of her own little pick-me-up, gracefully went back to the TV room having acknowledged ,in that familiar feminine fashion , the truth of what I had said.
Those of my readers who are married men of some some years' experience will know , in general terms, what Mrs C said!
https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/murdo-fraser-rangers-case-stinks-of-ineptitude-and-corruption
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Corruption. that word follows the ibrox club around like a dark rain cloud.
“Make no mistake, failure to get fans back in the very near future will sound the death knell for some of our best-loved clubs and no-one wants that
……………..
Anyone know what the sound of a death knell sounds like. Sleepless night for Mr Doncaster.
Cluster One 25th November 2020 at 23:27
‘..Corruption. that word follows the ibrox club around like a dark rain cloud.’
“””””””””””””””””””
And good old Murdo, bang on SFA/SPFL /RIFC plc message
“administrators of the company which ran the club”
Utter nonsense, of the kind expected of ‘politicians’ guarding their arses.
Honest to God!
May the likes of Murdo never be my Scottish Parliament representative, as having shown that he buys into an actual, factual sporting untruth!
Bad cess to his political fortunes on that account.
Silly me! I omitted the source of the item which prompted my post of 26th November 2020 at 00:28
It was an article (in the 'Scotsman' yesterday) by Murdo Fraser , MSP for Mid-Scotland and Fife, calling for ' urgent clarity from the Lord Advocate as to what exactly has been going on within the prosecution service'
He picks and chooses , doesn't he, what matters he likes to have 'clarity' or truth about?
He ignores the plain truth that the football club RFC of 1872 ceased to be a shareholder of the SPL and a member of the SFA in 2012, and that TRFC is a football club newly admitted to the SPL in 2012, and does not call for 'clarity' about the Big Lie at the very heart of RIFC plc.
He also, I think, used his political position to try to influence HMRC's legitimate pursuit of taxes unpaid by arch-cheat SDM?
Bad cess to him as being, in my opinion ,a supporter of cheating in Sport.
Gary Holt has resigned as Livingston manager.
Leeann Dempster has resigned as the chief executive of Scottish Premiership side Hibernian
………….
Busy day for resignations in scottish football.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55091790
A seven-figure sum of television money has yet to be paid to the 42 SPFL clubs by the league because the company’s accounts have not yet been signed off.
In six of the past 10 years, the figures have been announced before December.
The SPFL hope to publish the accounts by the end of December, with the final deadline for filing them in February 2021.
…..
Still enough time during a pandemic to get them signed off then?
I post this with a heavy heart, but Neil Lennon’s sadly untenable position (by no stretch of the imagination all self inflicted as there are significant mitigating factors – not the least of which is player attitude) can, for me, be summed up in the title of this blog (but without the question mark)…
Moving on Time
Cluster One 26th November 2020 at 17:56
'..The SPFL hope to publish the accounts by the end of December, with the final deadline for filing them in February 2021.'
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Like master, like servant!
Easy to see how RIFC plc can delay and bugger about with publication of their accounts, if that whore of a 'governance' body (the SPFL), which sold its sordid self to them by being party to the 5-Way agreement, has trouble sorting its own accounts!
Honest to God! We are hard done by, what with lies and incompetence both, especially the lies.
Cluster One 26th November 2020 at 17:43
‘..Leeann Dempster has resigned .’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Oh, has she been tapped up to replace Robertson?
My post at 00.31 refers:
I wrote that before I read what the 'Sun' had to say about the lady not being interested in another football move.
And this:
'.Owner Ron Gordon stressed he did NOT want Dempster to leave – but understands her reasons for doing so"
God Almighty, how the whole feckin 'Rangers saga' of lies and deceit and double-dealing and absence of integrity has turned me into a cynic!
Was Ms Dempster given her jotters? And are the honeyed words of Gordon mere conventional business PR[= lying]speak?
Who knows?
And who, at the end of the day, cares about the fortunes of any of the people involved in Scottish Football ownership or executive management or (God save the mark!) 'governance' of a corrupt sport?
I don't; except to hope that any of them involved in deceit or by their silence tacitly supporting the abandonment of sporting integrity are justly 'punished'
John Clark 26th November 2020 at 13:10
Silly me! I omitted the source of the item which prompted my post of 26th November 2020 at 00:28
It was an article (in the ‘Scotsman’ yesterday) by Murdo Fraser , MSP for Mid-Scotland and Fife, calling for ‘ urgent clarity from the Lord Advocate as to what exactly has been going on within the prosecution service’
He picks and chooses , doesn’t he, what matters he likes to have ‘clarity’ or truth about?
……………..
He was a Debenture seat holder.
There is an interesting (English) Court of Appeal judgment in my email inbox today.
The case is 'Beckwith-v-Solicitors Regulation Authority.'[ neutral citation [2020]EWHC 3231(Admin)] Case number CO/658/2020 , if anyone wants to look it up in BAILLII.
The judgment is interesting to me not in itself, but because there is within it a reference to the judgment in another case, in which the judge summarised case law in relation to 'professional integrity and honesty'.
The reference is made at para 29 in today's judgment, and the quotation is from Lord Justice Rupert Jackson's summarisation of the state of case law relating to 'professional integrity and honesty…'
" [101] The duty to act with integrity applies not only to what professional persons say, but also to what they do.. It is possible to give many illustrations of what constitutes acting without integrity. For example, in the case of solicitors:
(i) …….
(ii)..Recklessly, but not dishonestly, allowing a Court to be misled…….
(iii)……..
(iv)…..
(v)……..
(vi) Making false representations on behalf of the client "
I immediately thought of Lord Bannatyne's mistaken view ( in his judgment in the Kinloch betting case appeal) that CG 's consortium had bought Rangers Football Club out of Administration and were therefore the new owners of Rangers Football Club plc of 1872, and not of a club newly admitted to the SFL in 2012
I wonder now: was he 'recklessly' (but not dishonestly) 'allowed to be misled' on a matter of fact in that he was not corrected by those who, I believe, knew the true facts and was allowed to proceed on the basis that Rangers Football Club plc of 1872 foundation had not entered Liquidation but had been brought out of Administration and that the CG consortium was the new owner of Rangers of 1872.
I take it as an absolute certainty that no judge in the UK, made aware of all the relevant facts, would assert that RFC 2012 (IL) is not the club known shortly before as Rangers Football Club plc which suffered the insolvency event of Liquidation in 2012, and which the Liquidators are still dealing with.
[ If such a thing were to happen, then TRFC of 2012 , owned by RIFC plc of 2012, would be being chased up for the debts that the disgraced Board of RFC of 1872 dodged out of by declaring the club bust, and entering into a (failed) Administration, followed by Liquidation.
It would be very squeaky bum time at the top of the marble staircase]
Cluster One 27th November 2020 at 16:01
‘..He was a Debenture seat holder.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
I didn’t know that, Cluster One.
It partly explains his anxiety that HMRC should have been more prepared to help, by ‘accommodating” a CVA!
( I would have thought that such influential folk as he might have been quietly ‘accommodated ‘ by the RIFC plc board with a free pass for home games?)
If Sevco win the league this season – which if the board of the Champions do not take the requisite action, they surely will – what are the equations regarding potential Champions League numbers IF they qualify for the group stages?
How does this differ from the Europa League? In hard cash?
Though Gerrard has been highly over-rated as a coach personally, his coaching TEAM has proven themselves highly capable at achieving positive results – if not in terms of domestic trophies – certainly at the European stage.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this season’s SPL winners – be that Celtic or Sevco – enter at the 3rd qualifying round meaning TWO ties in navigate in the weaker ‘Champions path’ route to the lucrative group stage.
I am not a believer that underestimating your opponents is a productive approach to overcoming them. Benfica have become the latest of sides that the team currently playing out of ibrox have bettered over two legs. Only Bayer Leverkusen, Young Boys and Spartak Moscow have bucked that trend in 3 campaigns so far.
IF they receive a licence to compete in Europe next season, which is no guarantee given sevco’s recent financials in my opinion, then a league success is more than likely going to result in a Champions League bounty.
What is the quantum of that? Would they DARE to gamble by retaining playing assets on the chance that such a windfall would arrive? Nothing surprises me with that 8 year old outfit, as was the case with their predecessor.
"Chelsea Supporters Trust 'appalled' by £75 ticket price for return of fans
– Fans’ group says prices a ‘clear exploitation of supporter loyalty’
– Chelsea ‘empathise with the many who will be disappointed’
…"
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/nov/28/chelsea-supporters-trust-appalled-by-75-ticket-price-for-return-of-fans
=========
Has the SPFL made any noises about ticket prices yet…?
"Covid in Scotland: Forres Mechanics take break from league
…
For the first time in more than 100 years, Forres Mechanics will not be competing in a league season due to ongoing concerns over the risks of Covid-19.
The Mechanics – which at the time meant simply those involved in manual labour or a trade – were formed in 1884, making them the oldest existing football club in the north of Scotland…"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-55085490
Update on migration process folks. We have as you know, put a stop to the ads meantime, and we have also broken into the piggy bank to purchase the Forum software I spoke about last week.
I have now installed it, but there is a bit of configuration required before we can go to Beta testing 🙂
More soon
"Paul Murray admits Rangers were 'broken into a thousand pieces' as former director opens up on 'double-whammy' departure
Murray insists the rebuilding job at Ibrox took its toll…"
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/paul-murray-admits-rangers-were-23083874
================
The selfless Paul Murray giving a very skewed account of his role in 'saving' the Ibrox club – and with only a glancing reference to his part in the liquidation of RFC.
After a few years of silence, why has he suddenly popped up in the media now?
I'm sure it's a just a coincidence that TRFC is leading by a margin at the top of the league…
StevieBC 28th November 2020 at 16:48
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/paul-murray-admits-rangers-were-23083874
…….
And he admits the likes of himself, Dave King and the so called ‘Three Bears’ did make genuine errors in the operation to rebuild following the chaotic Craig Whyte and Charles Green eras.
He told the Daily Mail : “Listen, there have obviously been mistakes along the way and I have always said that.
We were going to make mistakes because we are only human beings.
……………….
Anyone got any quotes from Mr Murray when he said he made a mistake and what the mistakes were?
…………….
But despite a recent £15.9m loss posted in the annual Ibrox accounts, Murray believes his successors delivering a Scottish Premiership title this season would make it all worth.
…
And there it is in all it’s glory, run up as much debt as you want as long as you win the title. That was Mr Murrays thinking back in 2012, he has learned nothing from that approach from the old club.
Cluster One 28th November 2020 at 19:21
…
And there it is in all it’s glory, run up as much debt as you want as long as you win the title. That was Mr Murrays thinking back in 2012, he has learned nothing from that approach from the old club.
=========================
As Forrest Gump put it;
"Stupid is as stupid does!"
We've often joked that those who walk up the marble staircase must be injected with something, which brings on 'Rangersitis'.
I'm now starting to think that something is actually removed from individuals when they reach the top of the Ibrox staircase…
StevieBC 28th November 2020 at 20:33
Every penny they possess and a bit more ,
paddy malarkey 28th November 2020 at 21:40
'..Every penny they possess and a bit more ,'
__________________________
Very good, pm.
And, afore I go to my kip, I had a wee smile at this:
“Steven Naismith, one of the players who chose not transfer his contract to the new company under TUPE regulations, justified his position by stating that he had no loyalty to the new regime.[84] Five years later, Naismith retracted his comments and said he had been poorly advised over the situation at Rangers.[85]
It took only 24 hours before James Traynor retracted his journalistic view about the end of 140 years of history!
Honest to God what were they all all about?
Lies, mistruths, obfuscation, threats,
cringing Governance bodies afraid to act with integrity,
QCs warbling on about ‘the essence’, the ‘what it’s all about’ of a dead football club,
a Press wholly partisan and happily propagandising a lie….?
A judge making an ill-informed statement that a liquidated legal entity is still in business ,free of the debt that caused it to be liquidated?
Strange new world we live in.
And may I say, bad cess to each and every liar involved- in football, in media, or in the legal profession.
Honest to God, they need to get a grip on themselves!
Oh! a good grip is important
The bottom line is that as long as there are rich men willing to consistently put millions of pounds into the failing business, and the footballing authorities allow them to do it then they can keep this going for as long as it takes.
The desire to feel superior to everyone else clearly doesn't have a maximum price.
The scenes from Parkhead are frightening . Nicola will not be pleased , and the rest of us may suffer .
Well I've regularly had a whinge at both the SFA and SPFL for deliberately avoiding any meaningful engagement with the paying punters… so I can't ignore the fact that my own club, CFC, is paying the price for similar behaviour.
The club treated the fans, IMO, abysmally with its delaying tactics with – and then opposition to – Res.12 / 11.
The club mismanaged the recruitment process for filling the permanent manager position and the fans aren't happy.
Generally, you'd think that any 'normal' sporting governing bodies – and clubs themselves – would want to be more in tune with their paying customers…???
StevieBC 30th November 2020 at 11:07
Generally, you’d think that any ‘normal’ sporting governing bodies – and clubs themselves – would want to be more in tune with their paying customers…???
…………….
Only when you stop paying will they play a different tune.Until now most were happy to follow the pied piper without asking the questions.
I haven't seen much footage of the protests at CP last night but I daresay the polis will lift anyone who was breaching the peace and in the unlikely event they took the opportunity to have a word about social distancing so much the better.
I do hope though that no-one was charged with being part of an illegal protest. The right to peaceful protest is fundamental to the right of freedom of speech and expression in a democracy and making protests illegal at any time, let alone during the time of COVID and Brexit is a little too close to fascism for my liking.
I am not a conspiracy theorist or a tin foil hat wearer.
macfurgly 30th November 2020 at 17:26
It didn't look to me like a peaceful protest .
https://www.facebook.com/100001134756251/posts/3615380971843026/?sfnsn=scwspwa&d=w&vh=i&d=w&vh=i&extid=a
paddy malarkey 30th November 2020 at 18:20
As I say, I daresay the polis will lift anyone who has breached the peace. My point is that a law making all protests illegal has, for all of my lifetime, been a strategy used by authoritarian regimes to keep public dissent in check, and it is a big step to introduce such a law in this country.
macfurgly
To prevent large gatherings during a pandemic in a tier 4 area isn’t IMO close to facisim, it’s a common sense protocol……However, as I mentioned months ago, I think it plain and obvious that we are heading in a increasingly dystopian direction, eg. what’s happening with Julian Assange and things like The Integrity Initiative.
For some, the emotions that surround the winning or losing of 10IAR may move them to (violent) protest without taking into consideration the pandemic protocols but you can’t credibly start pointing to them, almost as civil rights defenders or a good example within the broader point you are making and I agree with (just not in this case or any group of unhappy footballs fans whose team lost a match).
Regards the blog, the broader point I made when previously touching on this was that if you seriously want to drive change, you have to aim high. Nevermind, a sense of priority as you look at your (grand)children and their future.
When Peter and the PLC rebuff Res11/12 for a final time in a couple of weeks, ask yourself why and go beyond the simple bottomline/shareholder interest answer. IMO, you have to back around 40 years ago as to when there was a pronounced economic culture change.
Since then, it’s been an increasingly heavy and powerful runaway train with a relatively subtle and hidden from view, ‘boiling a frog’ approach.
Scottish fitbaw in the first half of the 80’s were a time when Aberdeen and Dundee Utd were very successful, then the rule about retaining home gate receipts more or less closed that door and the game is poorer for it.
Carrots dangled, fear of being left behind, sheer greed, divide and conquer tactics, etc…. result in policies of self-interest (eg. Omnishambles I) instead of what was the working persons game taking a more representative approach.
I’m not proud of the part played by Campbell Ogilive in setting up the Champions League. It was just another step towards a bad place where there is no real competition. But it isn’t just football, it’s the prevalent economic culture.
dave king sells shares
Press Release – 1st December 2020
Club 1872 can today announce that former Rangers Chairman, Dave King has agreed to sell his entire shareholding in Rangers International Football Club (RIFC) Plc to Club 1872. The sale, when complete, will make Club 1872 the largest, single shareholder in RIFC Plc.
The structure of the deal gives Club 1872 three years to complete the purchase – with the opportunity to purchase the entire shareholding prior to December 2021 for a price of 20p per share which is below Dave’s cost. Club 1872 will aim to create over 20,000 legacy members of the organisation, each of whom will retain a lifetime vote on the shares held in RIFC.
It has also been agreed with the RIFC Board that both Club 1872 and Dave King will have the right to participate in any impending share issue of RIFC. This means that, should Rangers require it, they will continue to be supported by Club 1872 contributors’ donations to Club 1872 for the term of the agreement and that the combined shareholding need not be diluted as long as Club 1872 has funds available to participate.
Dave King said,
“During regime change and throughout my Chairmanship I have advocated for increased supporter influence at the shareholder level and I provided opportunities for Club 1872 to participate in every share issue that was undertaken. I did this partly to express my appreciation to those supporters and supporter groups who actively assisted me in securing regime change and partly to ensure that all supporters (whether shareholders or not) retain an influential voice in directing the affairs of their Club. It is my sincere hope that “Never Again” will supporters become as disconnected and disempowered as they were at the time of my re-engagement with the Club over 6 years ago.
After completion of my service as Chairman I took time to consider how I can create a final legacy by giving supporters – including future generations – substantial shareholder influence for the first time in the almost 150 years history of our Club. The time to launch a “Never Again” campaign is now.
I made it repeatedly clear that I reinvested in the Club somewhat reluctantly and only because without my support it was proving impossible for local Scottish supporters to martial sufficient financial resources to save Rangers from the impending doom that was unavoidable at that time. In addition I committed to investing further and doing whatever else it took (e.g. getting rid
of Sports Direct/Mike Ashley) to see Rangers competing for Scottish titles and in Europe. That is firmly the case now.
As I look forward I must recognise that my family is based in South Africa and I cannot be certain as to what approach they would take to owning shares in the Club when I can no longer influence this. After considering the possible options I concluded that the only meaningful way I could deliver enduring supporter influence in my absence would be to allow supporters – via Club 1872 – to increase their influence at shareholder level by acquiring my shares over a period of time that is considered to be achievable by Club 1872.
I do not intend to profit from my efforts over the last 6 years to save our Club, even though the Club is now substantially more valuable partly through my efforts. I am happy that supporters get this increased value as without them we would not have achieved the full recovery that was completed with the recent fund raise.
I have agreed therefore to transfer my shares to Club 1872 at my historical cash cost of acquisition (which includes professional fees) and to allow Club 1872 a period of three years to build up the supporter backing that will be necessary to achieve this. My all-in cost is 23.7p per share and I am willing to put a pricing structure in place that accommodates 20p as the initial price to be consistent with the present share issue and, at Club 1872’s request, I have included an option for Club 1872 to buy all of the shares at 20p which would result in a loss to me. In my view the shares are presently worth in excess of 50p if properly valued.
I have coined the term “Never Again" as I truly believe that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to make supporters – in perpetuity- the number one shareholder in the Club. Fortunately, the present Board supported me in my vision to see an increased shareholder influence for our fans but we cannot be sure of the fondness for this by future directors. The time to achieve this is therefore now.
Through my engagement with Club 1872 and its present board members (who are all dedicated volunteers) I have developed great trust in the individuals and the organisation. I have personally witnessed the strong benefit to the Club of having a collective voice for supporters at the shareholder level. It has been beneficial to have in Club 1872 a supporter group that is willing to challenge the Club when it feels necessary to do so and is also willing to support the Board when key resolutions that protect the Club need to be passed. Club 1872 did that extremely well during my period as Chairman to the extent that I have
absolute confidence that Club 1872 is the right vehicle for me to work with to advance supporter shareholder ownership – both now and in the future.
I would urge Rangers supporters to join Club 1872 today and ensure that the events of 2012 can “Never Again” be repeated."
Club 1872 Director, Laura Fawkes said,
“This is a huge moment for both Club 1872 and the Rangers support. We are very grateful to Dave King for his faith in Club 1872 and the Club 1872 Board and for his ongoing commitment to ensuring that the ownership structure of Rangers remains a very healthy mix of wealthy individuals and the wider supporter base.
As Club 1872 Directors, we are very proud to present this opportunity to the Rangers support. We now need over 20,000 Rangers supporters to take up the baton, join Club 1872 and ensure that the events of 2012 can never happen again. It would be a seminal moment for both Rangers Football Club and the supporters if we could achieve the position of being the largest shareholder in Rangers in time for the 150th anniversary of the club in 2022.
The rebuilding of the Club, largely overseen by the Rangers Board under Dave King’s Chairmanship, has been remarkable – from the position in 2012 to once again challenging for domestic titles and in European competition. Club 1872 can continue to assist with that process whilst ensuring that the wellbeing of the club remains at the centre of decision making in the longer term.
We fully understand the financial pressures that supporters are under in the current economic climate, and the huge contribution they have already made to Rangers this season through season ticket sales and merchandise. But, if they can dig deep one more time and join Club 1872 today as legacy members, then over the next couple of years we can together ensure that the club will remain in safe hands for generations to come."
where did they get the money?
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/dave-king-sell-rangers-shares-23099300
……………….
Club 1872 will have three years to buy out all of the shares to attain the biggest stake in the club.
……………………….
So king wants to sell his shares in the company RIFC to club 72 over the next 3 years. At kings last AGM he said he would rather own shares in a club. I take it that now is not going to happen.
Compare with SPFL reaction .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55151090
Big Dave has over 66 million shares , so Club 1872 needs to find about £13.5 million over 3 years to buy them , plus whatever else is required to avoid dilution if there is a share issue . A big ask in the current climate , imo .
King does have a sense of humour after all;
“…I do not intend to profit from my efforts over the last 6 years to save our Club, even though the Club is now substantially more valuable partly through my efforts…”
In his own head, this will be justification for ‘only’ charging 20p a share.
Did he sell Club1872 a bridge as well…?
Club* 1872 or the Mugs of Last Resort . Why would King sell up at 20p or 23.7p depending on how his words are interpreted when in his opinion they are worth 50p and why would the Directors not bite his hand off at this magnanimous offer?. The Board want rid of King . With his cold shoulder he is a massive negative to the business , despite being off the board he is still the largest shareholder and a person of significant control. The other investors seem only willing to put in the bare minimum to keep the club* afloat and 13.5m is above and beyond the call of duty. There is also a limit to the amount of shares they can have without triggering another takeover offer. King's own business is not doing too well and raising liquidity may be a priority at the moment even if it is on a 3 year purchase agreement. If Club1872 are daft enough to sign up to it then they could be legally on the hook for 13.5m regardless of what happens . Either King is desperate for cash or he knows things at Ibrox are more perilous than even the accounts are exposing . I cannot imagine the other shareholders will be happy with the fans having such a large position and this may just be King trying to force them into a buyout in order to avoid that scenario. All that remains is for 20 000 extra mugs to join club 1872 and pledge loadsamoney on the never never so Dave can get outta jail free . As long as there's not a financial collapse in the economy everything will be just fine.
Brexit: New entry criteria agreed for EU players coming to England
All overseas players joining English clubs must qualify for entry through a points-based system when the Brexit transition period ends on 31 December.
Points will be awarded for senior and youth international appearances, club appearances and the pedigree of the selling club.
The Football Association, the Premier League and the English Football League have come together to agree the plan.
Clubs will also not be able to sign overseas players until they are 18.
Signings of overseas players aged under 21 will be limited to three in the January transfer window and six per season after that.
Post-Brexit, English clubs will not be able to sign players freely from the European Union, and the new system sets out the rules for transfers once the transition period ends.
The proposal from the FA, Premier League and EFL – which will see players given a governing body endorsement (GBE) – was submitted to the UK government in November and has now been approved by the Home Office.
In the women's game, the entry requirements will not take youth international appearances, nor the selling club's progression in European competitions, into account.
All transfers of male and female players will be sanctioned using a points-based system, which is already in place for non-EU players without the right to work in the UK.
Players who accrue the required amount of points will earn a GBE automatically, while players just outside the requirements may be considered for a GBE by an exceptions panel.
The system means Brexit should not "damage the success" of the Premier League or the "prospects of the England teams", according to Premier League chief executive Richard Masters.
"Continuing to be able to recruit the best players will see the Premier League remain competitive and compelling," he said.
"The solution will complement our player development philosophy of the best foreign talent alongside the best homegrown players."
Analysis
Dan Roan, BBC sports editor
This has been seen in some quarters as a victory for the FA, which always saw the restrictions that Brexit would impose on clubs making signings from the EU as an opportunity to boost the selection chances of homegrown talent – and therefore help future England teams.
Why? Well under the new entry rules, European players will have to acquire 15 points to gain a 'GBE' and be allowed to sign for a top-flight club. Originally the Premier League had wanted this threshold to be just nine points – meaning it would be easier clubs to sign promising young players. The FA, meanwhile, had pushed for it to be 18 points, making it harder, and therefore preventing the market being flooded with overseas talent at the expense of English players.
It appears that with 15 points being settled on, the Premier League has had to compromise more than the FA. Certainly the ban on the signing of under-18s and restrictions on under-21 transfers will have a major impact on some clubs. There will be concerns that this could weaken the quality of the league, and drive up prices for English players, putting more of an emphasis on academy recruitment.
But the Premier League believes that the criteria for gaining points have been sufficiently softened, a decent compromise has been reached, and that its clubs will largely be able to sign the talent they want to.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55152637
I note that on the Club 1872 website they are already geared up to buy King’s shares.
They are effectively aiming for 20,000 ‘Legacy members’ donating £500 as either a one-off donation or paying it up over 10 or 25 months. (So £10m)
They will of course recognise this will all be going straight back into Dave’s pocket and even if they do manage to buy all the shares they may then be expected to replace Park et al as the ‘go to guys’ to make up the difference caused by any loses in future annual accounts?
The ‘difference’ is currently reported as £8.8m to get to the end of this season and a further £14.4 to get to the end of next season. So if such a situation was to continue or arise in the future (say a poor Euro run) that means a further £1,160 per legacy member.
All for fan ownership but when you are talking such big numbers you really have to make sure your heart isn’t ruling your head.
So his Glibness wants to ensure the clumpany is in safe hands for many years to come and is willing to sell his shareholding which he values at £33m, for less than half that! What a guy.
No need for Club 1872 to concern themselves with;
Huge operating shortfalls for this season and next.
Outstanding Tax arrears
Outstanding deferred salaries??
Outstanding transfer fees pre June 2020
Outstanding transfer fees post June 2020
Outstanding compensation to Mike Ashley
Outstanding compensation to Mark Warburton??
Outstanding loans to Laird
Outstanding loans to Close Brothers??
I'm sure there are other liabilities/potential liabilities I have missed?
No, step right up peepul and grab your snake oil, errr I mean, bargain shares. The philanthropic Dave wants oot to spend more time with his family.
I wonder if Club 1872 would be interested in some magic beans I have for sale???
sannoffymesssoitizz 2nd December 2020 at 01:04
Can’t say I am a fan of Brexit but from a domestic footballing view I think the stance taken by the English is one to be admired.
The production of young Scottish talent, both players and coaches, is very poor considering we appear to have a well respected set up for coaches from all around the world to come to Scotland to do their badges.
On a Hearts forum I found that Ian Cathro is back working with Nuno Santo at Wolves. They 1st met at a SFA course.
Just wondering how many other coaches around Europe have been through the SFA coaching system but why we ourselves do not appear to be producing coaches and players of any particular note?
At the same time other small sized nations provide us with evidence of far more technically gifted players and coaches with a bit of tactical nous that anything we have to offer.
The whole thing needs an overhaul but maybe a restriction on foreign talent may focus the minds a bit!
I think Memorial Walls have a valid claim for 1.3m and Hummel and Elite will be seeking damages as well. One story that has gone quiet is the issue with the roofs. King did acknowledge there were problems but the extent of those wasn't mentioned or any clarification if the work had been completed. The claim was that the roofs on 3 sides needed removed for the work to be done which obviously hasn't happened. As well as the outstanding loan to Laird there is the 400k/yr interest plus whatever interest is due to Close for their loan. It seems strange that some shareholders are willing to lend money and convert them to shares rather than use the money to pay off the loans . The winter months are probably the worst time to be out with the collecting tin and with the economy in such dire straights it's certainly having an effect on many peoples income.
Interesting points regarding Brexit , I don't see many if any plus points for football although home grown players may come back into fashion which should help the National team eventually.
"As I look forward I must recognise that my family is based in South Africa and I cannot be certain as to what approach they would take to owning shares in the Club when I can no longer influence this."
If only there was an Alexander Graham Bell and an Internet created.
" I have included an option for Club 1872 to buy all of the shares at 20p which would result in a loss to me. In my view the shares are presently worth in excess of 50p if properly valued."
If only there was a NOMAD and the stock exchange to trade on to get the valued 50p, what a conman and what gullible fans who follow the tribute act if they take up this offer.
wottpi 2nd December 2020 at 10:40
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I note that on the Club 1872 website they are already geared up to buy King’s shares.
They are effectively aiming for 20,000 ‘Legacy members’ donating £500 as either a one-off donation or paying it up over 10 or 25 months. (So £10m)
…………………..
Back in 2018 club 72 wanted to have 50,000 members. I take it that they have not reached that number yet.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/15898584.rangers-q-club-1872-1million-share-issue-fundraising-drive-ashley-share-purchase-board-representation-fan-ownership/
……………………
Note: All legacy donations are ring-fenced purely for purchasing shares through our legacy campaign or from RIFC via future share issues. These legacy donations are not subject to alteration. They will be split 95% for shares and 5% for administration costs.
95% goes straight in to kings pocket if they can keep up the payments.
Think the payments dwindled probably as with the punters
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC525940/filing-history
Timtim
Club* 1872 or the Mugs of Last Resort….
====%%%====
Generally, football fans when buying shares, are making an emotional investment rather than with an eye on financial gain so your derogatory comment isn't really called for.
IMO, whilst cashflow is always a consideration for 99% of people, the main driver in this particular offer is his age. Whether Club 1872 / (new) members deem it wise or are able to come up with such a huge sum of collective money at a time of general economc strife is IMO, probably doubtful.
Dave King comes in for a lot of stick on here and his way of doing business can sail close to the wind and occasionally beyond. However, his own business decisions seem to be about weighing up risks/situations very carefully and precisely over relatively long periods. He doesn't get everything right but he can be quite good at it, even if it wll sometimes includes forecasting legal proceedings.
Touching on DK medium to long term strategy from 2015 and the SFM interpretation of the recent publication of accounts. I'd like to put my tuppence worth forward.
In 2015, DK talked of a strategy to run the club on structured losses for up to and around 5 years which would be financed by himself and other willing investors. During this time, efforts would be made to improve the club infrustructure, very much including the footballing operation to a point where you had a modern football club able to break-even and occasionally make a profit.
Fast forward 5 years and I can see the vision taking shape regards the infrastucture and the footballing operation. But the large losses continue and two main factors come to mind, Covid19 and stopping 10IAR.
Many on here have said, it's similar or the same as always regards Rangers spending money they don't have, which inevitably leads to an unviable point of disaster. I don´t agree, it is very different.
Simply put, value has been added. Walter Smith would generally recruit proven players with little to no resale value. We would do well domestically but be very inconsistent in Europe. Today, we have a football operation that is competent and player recruitment/trading is seen as a huge part of reaching a breakeven point.
So you have Ross Wilson managing that and a modern coaching set-up that actually improves players and can get a collective tune out of them.
Next season Scottland has 2 CL spots, so the opportunity will be there (Covid permitting) to go for the group stages (under SG, Rangers have played 19 EL qualifying matches and are unbeaten). ie. there is a fair chance of CLGS qualification but obviously no guarantee. On top of European income, player sales will kick in and for the first time in many, many years…we actually have a plethora of attractive options to sell on.
Celtic's recent published accounts depended on the sale of one player (Tierney). This year, like Rangers, it seems the pressures involved with 10IAR meant they suspended such sales.
Another thing that was laughed at on here was when DK came up with the (para)phrase regards Celtic, folding like a pack of cards. Whilst this season is far from finished and 5 points is still only a small gap, I don't think they will be so much mirth on the subject just now.
When doing the corporate stuff in the Hampden shower, Peter and the PLC moved back in time to where the football operation wasn't so modern/competent and the projected value added would be at risk. This should serve as a warning to Rangers, when the time comes that SG&Co move on.
I think it's worth bearing in mind that the Rangers support aren't being asked to buy shares here.
20,000 of them are being asked to gift £500 each so that a company (CIC) can buy those shares.
As far as I am aware Club 1872 doesn't have 20,000 members, in fact possibly less than half of that.
To get all of them to pay in £500, and another10,000 or more to pay it is going to be some going.
Homunculus 2nd December 2020 at 22:25
………..
To get all of them to pay in £500, and another10,000 or more to pay it is going to be some going.
…………..
Add a season ticket european tickets my gers scheme.
Then what happens if club 72 just can’t make the payments, they have been around since 2016 and i also don’t think they have 20,000 members.
Homunculus 22.25
As far as I am aware Club 1872 doesn’t have 20,000 members, in fact possibly less than half of that.
=========
Apparently their membership is around 7k
A few if’s and buts here too, fex: if someone else comes in before the 36months ? period and buys DK’s shares
reasonablechap 2nd December 2020 at 20:37
Fast forward 5 years and I can see the vision taking shape regards the infrastucture and the footballing operation. But the large losses continue and two main factors come to mind, Covid19 and stopping 10IAR.
Many on here have said, it’s similar or the same as always regards Rangers spending money they don’t have, which inevitably leads to an unviable point of disaster. I don´t agree, it is very different.
…
Next season Scottland has 2 CL spots, so the opportunity will be there.
obviously no guarantee.
folding like a pack of cards.
and the SFM interpretation of the recent publication of accounts.
…….
Today, we have a football operation that is competent and player recruitment/trading is seen as a huge part of reaching a breakeven point.
…
When was the last time they made a profit on a player?
……………..
Looking at the accounts, and the money needed to see out the season and the money needed for next season before a ball is even kicked. looking at an unseeded club trying to reach the CL group stages, looking at player sales that made a profit?
Again obviously no guarantee.
…
Touching on DK medium to long term strategy from 2015.
AD Hoc he called it, and it still looks the same today with even more loses.
Celtic as we know have posted decent financial accounts over many a year.
The club has cash in the bank.
It has a good record of selling players to keep the bank balance in order.
They have had unprecedented domestic success.
However their Euro record is variable and unpredictable to say the least, as this season shows.
By what logic would you believe a Johnny come lately running on fumes will fare any better.
A Euro loss, the selling of an influential player, the manager going to a bigger club/league (a la Rodgers), etc etc all make the folding like a pack of cards far more likely down Ibrox way than any other club in Scotland.
The fact that over the next few years any spare income from dedicated fans could be heading to South Africa, as opposed to into the club coffers, just makes the financial situation worse.
Fans can make an emotional investment in their club by buying shares when an issue becomes available, that way the money goes to the club*. Club 1872 could also offer to lend the club* money and convert them to shares at a later date, they could do so at a far lower interest rate than King's extremely lucrative 8% . Buying King's shares gives that money to King not the club* but of course only a "mug" wouldn't realise that , it also takes that money which had been collected to benefit the club* and instead it benefits King. Dave King is a convicted criminal , a proven liar , a thief and a thug . If there are any reasonable chaps out there who are happy to give their hard earned cash to him then they are mugs as well. This isn't a derogatory comment , this is fair warning for those wearing blue tinted glasses.
I see King is also looking for the magic 20p per share, the same figure which has been used for converting to equity.
So as I understand it he will be getting about £13.5m for his shares, £5m loan paid back as cash and £400k or so in interest. Let's call it a round £19m he is getting back as cash, rather than the confetti the rest of the hobbyist now have.
Not bad for getting away from a loss making business, with predicted further losses and loads of outstanding litigation.
And he manages to sell it as him doing the fans a favour.
It really is rather a good trick if he can pull it off.
Homunculus 3rd December 2020 at 12:18
I think it's fair to point out that the vast majority if not all that future litigation is due to him or at the very least happened under his watch . To think the board he ousted had got the annual loss down to 3m and were on track to break even in the next accounts, had still got a NOMAD a proper stock listing and warm shoulders. What exactly King saved them from remains shrouded in mystery.
Timtim 3rd December 2020 at 12:32
Always remember, propaganda doesn't actually have to be true.
Once enough people believe something it becomes their reality anyway.
An excellent (and sobering) article in the Guardian today about the 1961 & 1971 deaths on Stairway 13 at Ibrox, by someone who was there at both:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/dec/03/rangers-football-forgotten-tragedy-ibrox-stadium-disaster-glasgow
Homunculus @12.40
In terms of propaganda, then look no further than the post election United States. If something more domestic is preferred then there is always the SMSM in relation to the liquidation of Rangers (1872)
I see that St Mirren and Kilmarnock have each had 3-0 defeats imposed as a result of covid -19 protocol breaches. Notwithstanding that each set of circumstances differ, I wonder if the SPFL gave any thought whatsoever to points deductions in the cases of Bolingoli's serious brainfart and Rangers' <cough> 'mere misunderstanding' of the protocols before a friendly game a few weeks back, and to be fair, the Aberdeen eight's restaurant/pub aberration.
I guess what I'm asking is, would our football authorities dare deduct points from either of the two clubs with the largest supports, particularly during a potential 10IAR season, or are points deductions only for us diddies?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55176197
Curiously, Motherwell, the major beneficiaries today from the Covid points and goals awarded which now leads to their top scorer being the SPFL itself, managed to avoid any sanctions for a club breach earlier in the season. Lucky people.
This is a screenshot from a deleted tweet:
https://twitter.com/_AndrewMaclean/status/1306631379183112193/photo/1
borussiabeefburg 3rd December 2020 at 20:09
Valid point noted about Motherwell – but it doesn't answer the question I posed about whether the SPFL/SFA would dare to deduct points from either of the Glasgow giants, particularly in a season as potentially momentous as the current one.
Just in case I'm still not making myself clear, I strongly suspect our football authorities, who have previous for such abdication of responsibility, would go to any lengths to avoid a points deduction which could affect the destination of the league trophy, despite the patently obvious fact that ALL the rules should apply equally to ALL the clubs.
Of course, Highlander… the Twin Cheeks would be somehow mysteriously absolved. Scottish fitba is what it is. Corrupt.
I have long been filled with loathing for the Scottish fitba set-up, but have persisted in believing that my One Town, One Team (which may soon become fan-owned) was in a far better place. I could try to ignore its setting…
Miserably, I have focussed too narrowly on my home town team.
In my heart of hearts, I know that all professional clubs are consciously part of the poisonous cess-pit and all are prepared to keep that ball rolling. St Mirren have not been protected by participating in the charade which is all about propping up the “big two”.
It’s really not worth caring any more.
St Mirren Officials certainly seem to have screwed up, here. They didn’t understand and legislate against their players being abjectly human and fallible. That they might be tempted to go to Spain to ‘visit’ a girlfriend or just go out and party together after a defeat…
EveryBuddie must now hope the current over-punishment will even out over time – natural justice – just as Saints have been awarded at least as many penalties as the 4 Sevco got at Ibrox in 1 match. Aye, right…
Better to keep their Buddie eyes peeled and be scurrilous Lee Wallaces reporting on EVERY misdemeanour artlessly perpetrated by other clubs – and, being human, their players will also make mistakes. Scotland’s scabloids will relish the fall-outs. The SPFL adjudicators will be able to claim overtime payments.
For the avoidance of doubt – to quote a cliche – last season I had hoped and pushed for Hearts, Stranraer, Partick Thistle to to be treated with some respect in the middle of weird novel circumstances like the pandemic and for relegation to be suspended last year.
I was disgusted that a supposedly Big Boys club could not accommodate their own members in such strange circumstances. (Though John Obika’s winning goal that condemned Hearts unfairly WAS a cracker!)
I have wholly fallen out of love with football as practised under the aegis of SPFL and SFA.
PS Why have none of those Scottish conga-dancers been penalised, yet?
Sorry for being a pedant, Fish Nish but you are mistaken. (to be fair you are not the only one).
If John Obika hadn't scored and the game had ended 0-0 then Hearts were still bottom.
For Hearts to have got off the bottom they would have had to have won the game.
(If Hearts had won the game, say 1-0, then st mirren would have been bottom with an identical goal difference but an inferior number of goals scored)
HS
Highlander 3rd December 2020 at 17:57
'..are points deductions only for us diddies?'
Highlander 3rd December 2020 at 20:57
'..I strongly suspect our football authorities, who have previous for such abdication of responsibility, would go to any lengths to avoid a points deduction which could affect the destination of the league trophy, despite the patently obvious fact that ALL the rules should apply equally to ALL the clubs. '
Ex Ludo 3rd December 2020 at 16:23
'..In terms of propaganda, then look no further than the post election United States. If something more domestic is preferred then there is always the SMSM in relation to the liquidation of Rangers (1872) '
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Highlander, your posts referenced above ,and Ex Ludo's post ,neatly encapsulate the huge problem in Scottish Football occasioned by the Big Lie.
We had the SPL first properly applying its own Articles of Association and , on account of CW's Rangers suffering the insolvency event of Liquidation, calling in that club's share in the SPL company.
Then we had the SFA first properly applying its own Articles and Rules and stripping CW's Rangers of its membership of the SFA because it was no longer a member of League.
So far, so right, and broadly in line with the 'Rules'. ([The decision on which applicant club can be admitted into the senior professional ranks is one for league authorities, I suppose. Was any other non-League club unjustly denied its application for membership? I don't know, but I can allow that TRFC could be admitted as a new club competing for membership.]
We had a brand new football club, newly admitted into the bottom tier of Scottish professional football.
But then the really sh.tey work began; the manufacturing of the most absurd sporting untruth that the world of sport has ever produced! that a football club that is dead in Liquidation is simultaneously alive!
an untruth ,sadly endorsed and at least tacitly 'supported' by your club and my club and every club in Scottish professional football and damaging to us all.
And, much more seriously damaging to us all in the long wrong run, by the SMSM.
Once the 'Press' is seen as lying bast-rds even in such utterly unvital matters as football ( sorry, Bill Shankly!) I think we may be in trouble.
Personally, I think the failure of Celtic (as a plc) to ask hard questions about the gifting of millions of pounds of 'European' money by the SFA Licensing committee to an allegedly unentitled CW's Rangers was, is, a stain on the escutcheon of a club that boasts of its origins.
Whatever the reasons, Scottish Football is, at rock bottom, rotten and essentially unprincipled.
You and I both are asked by our clubs to 'support' them.
In untruth?
Higgy’s shoes :
”Sorry for being a pedant, Fish Nish but you are mistaken. (to be fair you are not the only one).
If John Obika hadn't scored and the game had ended 0-0 then Hearts were still bottom.”.
Quite right, Higgy. I was sloppy with the phrasing. Should have said, “Coup de grâce”.
Hearts had been self-harming all season and, at that point, merited demotion. It was a mercy…
However, no one knows better than a Buddie that teams CAN turn things around. Seasons are the full measure. Hearts had started to invest heavily in their squad. They might well have pulled it off…
…particularly if they had a last-minute, penalty-saving expert like Vladcav Hladky!
I can and do love fitba, but…
…summary execution by the very organisation in which Hearts has been an exciting and previously valued member was the morally wrong thing to do. Who likes participating in a competition which changes the rules halfway through?
I understand the SPFL reasoning: the Twin Cheeks wouldn’t want the pfaff of a prolonged or cluttered season when there are Euro games and overseas money-making friendlies to be played.
More bad news .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55171011
Re The recent punishments for St Mirren and Kilmarnock, I have merely scanned the ruling for Killie and read a bit of commentary re St Mirren
It seems there are two parts to case. Killie were deemed to have not operated social distancing protocols on the bus to an away game and at a pre-game meal. To put is simply, they probably need to have two buses to keep all players and staff appropriately distanced and at the hotel where the meal was served, the tables had too many people around them.
In St Mirren's case it seems the same applied but they were also guilty of letting players car share. There seems to be questions about not imparting covid related information to players and staff in an appropriate manner.
I may be wrong but I get the impression the cash fine is for braking the covid protocols and the loss of game and the 3-0 award to opposition is based on sporting disadvantage, given the result was that due to Covid issues the offending team were unable to put out a team and thus placed unfavourable conditions on their opposition that would otherwise not have occurred.
The linking of these two cases to earlier one with Celtic & Aberdeen seems to be 'apples and pears' in that both those clubs were willing and able to play their fixtures. The SPFL seem to also be saying that the Scot Gov cancelled the games but I am not sure that is strictly the case.
However, if a team were to fall foul of a bout of food poisoning as a result of their own catering operation and could not fulfill a fixture, is it not the case that precedent for teams being unavailable due to 'illness' within the squad is that the games are rescheduled.
Clubs would not be fined for breaking hygiene protocols and no points would be awarded to the disadvantaged opposition.
I can see why the SPFL have taken the stance they have, in these most difficult of times, but not overly convinced they have the powers or precedent to take such action. Perhaps it is a gloves off approach as opposed to being more accommodating in 'normal times'.
While not so fussed about retrospective action on Celtic and Aberdeen, I am more concerned that the same SPFL seem willing to disrupt an already jam packed league fixture list and allow a certain team to needlessly go to a winter training camp (which presumably will be abroad), when there could be a higher probability of people straying from protocols and covid controls.
If Celtic or any other team are unable to fulfill fixtures due to 'covid mistakes' then 3-0 it will be, no?
Paddymalarkey@13.21
From the BBC article it states that the 9 Dundee Utd first team players in isolation will also miss the game against the current league leaders. The league being decided the way it was last season was unsatisfactory to many. This season is rapidly becoming farcical. The soulless games were bad enough but more and more are now less and less competitive. Ghost teams playing ersatz football in empty stadia. Is it really worth the effort?
Like buses .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55189245
Ex Ludo 4th December 2020 at 14:57
'…The soulless games were bad enough but more and more are now less and less competitive.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
The 'solidarity in untruth' [the Big Lie] that was created to avoid the supposed Armageddon that the death of Rangers of 1872 was imagined to bring about if Rules had been properly applied has had the not unexpected effect of rendering the sport's governance bodies utterly discredited as any kind of moral authority, able to deal with the truth of a feckin pandemic!
Scottish Football would, if it had not lied, might have hoped to find an honestly agreed policy on how to deal with the nobody's fault 'act of God' pandemic.
Every club knows that lies are at the very heart of the governance of our sport. And they supported the lies.
One is hard put not to say 'hell mend ye all'. Like rats in a sack killing each other rather than co-operatively gnaw your way out of the sack you may all die the death.
I do hope these players didn’t car-share or sit too closely on the bus going to this photo shoot on Nov 27!
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/1789021/dundee-united-leaked-team-photo-covid-19-rules/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
Homunculus 3rd December 2020 at 12:18
I see King is also looking for the magic 20p per share, the same figure which has been used for converting to equity.
=====
Exactly Homunculus
If you dilute your shares fourfold from 80 million to 320 million, you can’t expect them to remain at the same price of 20p, and DK seriously can’t expect anyone to believe his ridiculous claim they’re worth 50p. I doubt even Club2012 are ‘that’ stupid.
fitbawfan 5th December 2020 at 11:24
If you dilute your shares fourfold from 80 million to 320 million, you can’t expect them to remain at the same price of 20p, and DK seriously can’t expect anyone to believe his ridiculous claim they’re worth 50p. I doubt even Club2012 are ‘that’ stupid.
He is seriously selling his exit strategy as doing them a favour.
Club 1872 have clearly bought it and are selling it to the fans.
I don’t think King expects to get the full £13.5 million, but this will probably see him getting a few million out of it, money which won’t go to the club.
I am genuinely intrigued with regards the mindset of the other “investors” and what they think of him getting money rather than confetti. Maybe they are just glad to see the back of him. They aren’t paying for it after all, it’s just the normal fans who will scrape together what they can to give to their favourite millionaire. Then proclaim what a saviour he was for their fledgling club.
I wonder who will pay for the statue, probably them as well.
I don't think Big Dave will get out of dodge with the swag anytime soon . What he's looking for is an agreement that his shares will be bought at 20p a pop regardless of of any future financial problems at RIFC/TRFC , including admin/liquidation . The other directors seem happy enough to let somebody else pay off Dave – no way would they like to be lumbered with more confetti . If anything seismic happened , Club 1872 will be left holding the bag for Dave's pension , and I think most supporters can see this , I cannot see them recruiting 20,000 investors , especially as the cash is definitely not going anywhere near their club .
Just idle speculation on my part, but
this 'generous offer' from King has got more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.
Sell shares to TRFC fans – at an artificially inflated price and for a company whose Annual Accounts typically come with Going Concern red flags fluttering away vigorously!
For King to even try and brass neck it – with the cheerleading support of the pseudo-financial advisor Chris Jack in The GT – suggests that he got short shrift trying to dump his shares on other Directors.
StevieBC 5th December 2020 at 14:48
Oh, they don't even get the shares for their £500, they give the money to Club 1872, who then give it to King.
Club 1872 get the shares.
I think you are right though, he is doing this because no-one else wants them, why would they.
He will get rid of at least some of them this way I think.
Saw this on another site and found some of the comments to of interest and maybe to some on the SFM.
"
contra mundum @ celtic noise
My concerns with respect to governance and management at Celtic plc are long-standing. Specifically, the board’s and CEO’s:
It seems there is no corruption or financial crime serious enough to which the Celtic board and CEO will not turn a blind eye for their “Old Firm” friends.
Their policy of not using the term “the Old Firm” is fooling no one. It is very clear the Celtic plc business model depends on “the Old Firm” remaining alive. The craven acquiescence to (and facilitation of?) the above and more is now coming home to roost and affecting results on the park.
A blind eye was turned to the involvement in Scottish football of a convicted fraudster for how many years. At what other club would this have been accepted by the SFA and the other member clubs? The latest financial statements of RIFC cast serious doubt if that club/company is a going concern. Despite the disclosure that they have offers extant from two directors to cover forecast cash shortfalls of £23.2m “as necessary”, the financial statements further disclose explicitly there is no binding debt facility in place as at 17 November 2020, the date the financial statements and audit opinion were signed. Information should be sought on the ultimate sources of the directors’ and other loans. There is a proven track record of proceeds of crime being invested in that organisation by a convicted South African criminal.
Based on the publicly available information in the 2019-20 RIFC financial statements, in my professional opinion there is genuine reason to be sceptical about why the audit opinion did not include a qualification on the basis that the company is NOT a going concern. [Disclosure: I am a Company Auditor and Chartered Accountant with over 38 years’ experience.]
Celtic could easily commission professional advice that would reach a similar conclusion and demand further forensic investigation. So why don’t they?
Why are the Celtic board so unwilling to insist on a level playing field for all clubs?
If Celtic are unwilling to act on any of the above, they must be forced to by Celtic supporters. And as minority shareholders who hold no voting power, only financial sanctions, I believe, will be effective in doing this.
The board and CEO have done just enough and no more to stay ahead domestically, with the notable exception of the appointment of Brendan Rodgers. Even his short 33-month tenure was corrupted and disrupted by a CEO who is an unqualified, de facto Director of Football, supported by a compliant board. They have achieved very little for years to assist any progression in Europe or to move to a competition outside Scotland.
Who among us wants our club’s very existence to be dependent on a rivalry with bigots, cheats and criminals?
Governance at Celtic has failed in the last decade or so. The current board has morphed into the same cosy, group-think set-up that characterised the pre-1994 board. Any external criticism is verboten and rejected outright. Just keep buying season tickets and merchandise and shut up!
Renewal and regeneration are required to bring fresh, modern thinking and strategies to the board and management; and, most importantly, knowledge of the global football environment in the 2020s. How many of the current board know how a contemporary, professional sporting organisation with a global footprint should be positioned and run?
Good corporate governance includes succession planning and a healthy level of turnover in board and CEO positions, with recruitment of those with contemporary and complementary skill-sets relevant to the sector, not the complacency, hubris and stagnation that allows the same people to hold the same roles for decades.
For the vast majority of us, Celtic is an emotional investment. We want our club to be able to compete on a level playing field. We play by the rules, so we should insist others are forced to do the same and are held fully accountable when they do not.
We need these messages to be conveyed strongly and clearly to the board and CEO; and if they continue to refuse to act, they need to face financial sanctions.
Potential financial sanctions:
All of these measures will be seen as controversial by some and will be financially harmful to Celtic in the short-term, of that there can be no doubt; but for far too long these issues have been ignored by the current board and CEO.
Regrettably, if they will not listen to the people who are Celtic football club, in my opinion we need to communicate with them in the only language they understand – a financial one."
King bought his shares for 18/20p in 2015 after he successfully drove down the price by encouraging boycotts and discontent via his media poodles , he then converted loans to shares at 20p so his costs are less than 20p per share . He states he only wants back what he has put in , however nobody is asking what he took out. Driving the share price down for his benefit , he took out the NOMAD, he took the club* off the stock market , he cost the club millions in litigation and possibly 10s of millions in damages (to SDI,Elite,Hummel,Memorial walls etc) he cost 7 figure sums in interest repayments from loan sharks ( including himself) an expense account for 1st class travel and hotel bills whenever he wanted to go and watch his favourite club* Liverpool . The damage caused by his takeover which breached the guidelines and led to his cold shoulder pariah status which ultimately led to difficulties securing banking facilities and raising capital from investors . You don't need a calculator to see he has taken out and or cost the club* far more than he has put in , and what he has put in he wants back with profit. If Club 1872 sign an agreement then that board and all its members may be liable for the full amount even if the club* go under. Nothing personal of course it's just business.
A reminder of Judge Southwoods words
"A mendacious witness whose evidence should not be accepted on any issue unless it is supported by documents and other objective evidence. It was remarkable that King showed no sign of embarrassment or any emotion when he conceded that he had lied to the (SARS) commissioner in a number of his income tax returns. In our assessment, he is a glib and shameless liar."
The takeover panel also found him to be glib and shameless
In hearings with the panel, Mr King initially denied having acted with individuals including George Letham, another Rangers shareholder, to gain a controlling share in the club.That was “later shown to be untrue” following the discovery of emails between the two men, which Mr King had told the panel were deleted and could not be recovered.The panel found that “Mr King’s behaviour shows a clear propensity to disregard the [takeover] code and comply with its rules only when forced to do so by enforcement proceedings in the court”
Homunculus 5th December 2020 at 15:46
I think you are right though, he is doing this because no-one else wants them, why would they.
…………………
It may also have been his turn to do a Malcolm Murray.They need millions to see out the season, best case sell some players in Jan. If that does not happen someone has to come up with another loan, king has taken himself out the equation. Now the other shareholders will get an extra turn in the game of pass the parcel, and all the time looking at king walking away with his pockets jingling and a jangling
bigboab1916 5th December 2020 at 16:59
Saw this on another site and found some of the comments to of interest and maybe to some on the SFM."
——————–
That's the most coherent and persuasive expression of the current discontent, or some of it, that I've seen. Unfortunately time is too tight for the proposed financial sanctions to make any difference this season, (if they ever will, which I doubt).
Fences have now been erected to keep the fans at bay tomorrow. Celtic supporters exercising their democratic right to engage in peaceful protest is likely to be a shorter road to the same end. Taking on your own supporters, or customers if you will, is not a good long term strategy.
Cluster One 5th December 2020 at 22:08
Do you think they will sell the top players (no point selling without bringing in a decent fee) when they are so close to winning their first ever league title, or indeed major trophy, and stopping Celtic winning ten league titles in a row.
I think the money will have to come from even more loans.
Cluster One 3rd December 2020 at 00:16
When was the last time they made a profit on a player?
……………..
Looking at the accounts, and the money needed to see out the season and the money needed for next season before a ball is even kicked. looking at an unseeded club trying to reach the CL group stages, looking at player sales that made a profit?
Again obviously no guarantee.
…
Touching on DK medium to long term strategy from 2015.
AD Hoc he called it, and it still looks the same today with even more loses.
=======%%%=======
Fair questions and points.
The management of contracts and player trading has, over the years, been very poor and was a obvious area that needed addressed within any medium to long term strategy.
To that end we brought in Ross Wilson and a modern progressive coaching team in an attempt to add value. The football operation as a whole is now functioning well and it’s reasonable to be confident that player sales will generate net revenue in 2021.
Based on 3 years of European results, I’d say we have a reasonable expectation to make the European group stages for next season, whether that be CL or EL. Celtic are making a now habitual dogs dinner of managing the combination of CL qualifiers and player trading. It’ll be interesting to see if Rangers new more professional approach does better.
You are right, there are no guarantees in football (especially during a pandemic) but as for how it pans out, we’ll know more come next September.
Just a quick word on Covid related government restrictions.
On one hand, Scottish fitbaw seems to be lobbying hard for a better deal….but with the other are doing their level best to punch itself in the face.
Is Scottish fitbaw confident that for political reasons, the government won’t act on previous threats of action or are they just leaderless and omnishambolic, or a bit of both ?….. Speaking of which, Peter (other than his bank balance) isn’t having a good time of it on various levels and I doubt he’ll be around Scottish fitbaw this time next year (no matter who wins the title).
2021 seems to shaping up as a year for significant events and change on many levels and Covid19 makes nearly everything more difficult to call.
Whisper it, sounds almost crazy, but Scotland have two home group games and a real chance to make the KO stages of a major finals for the first ever time.
One specific regards Peter, his friends at the SPFL, fixture changes and Covid.
Bang in the middle of a global pandemic, why would the SPFL consider the reason of an overseas training camp valid, to move a fixture that the other team (Hibs) don't agree to ?
Homunculus 5th December 2020 at 23:16
"I think the money will have to come from even more loans."
And those loans will be converted to equity at a later date further diluting the shares just bought by club 1872 for 13m (If they do buy them) . If Club 1872 were given a choice to support the club* ( or even the operating company that runs the club*) or to support Dave Kings pension fund then they should support the former. The question remains why the Board didn't go to them before Close Leasing or Laird . It looks like the Board don't want Club 1872 to have a large slice of the pie . One question that remains unanswered is did King jump or was he pushed ? Did he see the writing on the wall or did the other Directors finally have enough of this dangerous liability ? Removing himself from the board takes away any personal liability he may have faced , but there is no need to offload his shares at (according to him) a 60% discount in a goodwill gesture. I'm just surprised he's not hanging around to unveil his own statue. As Oscar might say " to lose one club may be regarded as a misfortune , to lose both looks like carelessness". I wonder if he'll vote against a CVA this time?
Timtim 6th December 2020 at 12:13
If Dave King can walk away from this with the best part of £19m, or anywhere near it, and still be thought of by many Rangers supporters as a hero then it will be the best con even he has ever pulled off.
Re a CVA, he lobbied against it for the former club, in fact he even suggested to the support that they should not buy season tickets.
Clearly liquidation suited his purposes.
"I am opposing the CVA and urge all loyal fans to do the same,"
"I also believe that all true Rangers fans should not buy any season tickets …"
The Rangers support see what Dave King does in every other aspect of his business life, they see what the South African authorities say about him, what the takeover panel say about him, what the UK Courts say about him, what other businesses who sue him and their club think of him. They choose to ignore all of it.
@Homunculus
The illusion is the delusion that comes from collusion . When it comes to propaganda nobody is more refined at it than the Brits, and nobody is more gullible than the British public . Dress it up in the Union flag bestow a sprinkling of Royal patronage add some pomposity and remind everyone we stood alone and defeated Hitler and there will be a mass outbreak of forelock tugging from Wick to Plymouth. The reality is a corrupt banana republic operating the largest money laundering operation out of the City of London via its offshore tax havens ignored by a Parliament (the Mother of Democracy) which has just voted to break International law and excused its troops and operatives from prosecution for war crimes . Those who stand up and expose the truth will end up sharing a cell with Julian Assange or a sports desk at the Dundee Courier with Jim Spence.
Crooks like Sir Philip Green , Robert Maxwell or Sir David Murray can empty the pension pots and pilfer bank accounts and never be held to account. Is it any wonder that the “Establishment Club” can operate with such impunity , that a blind eye is turned to the running up of debt or that a convicted criminal was ushered up the marble staircase strewn with rose petals. Is it any wonder that Ibrox is a microcosm of the British Empire that it toasts annually from its loving cup. The truth is too painful and too shameful to deal with , better it live with the myths of World’s most successful same club* just the holding company Craig Whytes fault anyhows.
If Priti Patel who was sacked less than a year ago for having secret meetings with a foreign Govt (essentially treason) can then return as the Home Secy (in charge of law and order) then there is every chance that King stepped down at Ibrox in order to become the unopposed parliamentary candidate for Dunny on the Wold
I wonder if Peter will be aggressively lobbying the government to ease attendance restrictions for the upcoming Celtic AGM ?
I think Peter and his Board of diddies should enquire about hiring the infamous Ibrox AGM 'Gazebo on the pitch'.
Just to be on the safe side.
…and in the season of goodwill, the cash would be welcomed at Ibrox…
Not for the faint of heart ,
Video: Celtic fans attack the team bus as it leaves Celtic Park (msn.com)
Timtim 6th December 2020 at 13:53
'. The truth is too painful and too shameful to deal with , better it live with the myths of World’s most successful same club* ..'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
In that general vein, Timtim, I will post off tomorrow this letter:
" Mr Dean Beale,
Inspector General and Chief Executive,
The Insolvency Service,
PO Box 3690,
Birmingham B2 4UY
Dear Mr Beale,
From the website (updated January 2020) of the Insolvency Service I take the following sentence:
“ We also have the power to conduct confidential investigations into limited companies and limited liability partnerships where we have received information that suggests serious corporate abuse”
On foot of that, I would like to invite you to investigate the circumstances relating to what I view as the clearly misleading implication in the Initial Public Offer( IPO) document issued by Rangers International Football Club plc ( RIFC plc)(company number SC437060) in December 2012.
That implication was that the football club of which RIFC plc is the holding company, and on the fortunes of which prospective shareholders would depend for returns on their investment in RIFC plc, was the Rangers Football Club plc, founded in 1872 ,and incorporated as The Rangers Football Club Limited in 1899 (company number SC004276) which, before it entered Liquidation ,claimed with some justification to be the most successful football club in history, in respect of sporting achievements over 140 years.
In point of absolute fact, the Rangers Football Club plc of 1872 foundation (company number SC 004276) entered Administration on 14 February 2012.
The appointed Administrators signally failed to find a buyer or to achieve a Company Voluntary Agreement (CVA) to allow the club to return to solvency.
In consequence, the club entered Liquidation on 31 October 2012,[ where it still languishes under the new name (RFC 2012 plc) given to it on 31 July 2012 with the intention, I believe, of hiding the fact that it was Rangers of 1872 that was being Liquidated]
Shortly prior to 31 July 2012, a consortium had set up a completely new company, incorporated as SevcoScotland Ltd , company number SC 425159.
It was to this company that the (in my opinion, not vey able) Administrators had sold many (but, obviously not all!) of the assets of the distressed club in June 2012 . (Among the assets that could not be sold were a number of football players whose contracts with the club were rendered null and void by the Liquidation and who were therefore free to quit the club and seek employment elsewhere)
Under the Articles of Association of the then Scottish Premier League (SPL) and the Articles of Association and Rules of the Scottish Football Association (SFA), Rangers Football Club plc (company number SC004276) had its share in the SPL withdrawn, and ceased in consequence to be a member of a football league, and therefore lost its membership of the SFA..
It thus lost its very existence as a football club entitled to participate in Scottish professional football.
There was no question of the distressed club having merely changed ownership, as many football clubs do.
No, the club went into Liquidation and was not bought outright by a new owner.
[Sadly, the wishes and fond remembrances of football fans cannot change the harsh reality of the death of a football club any more than the wishes and remembrances of family can resurrect a deceased loved one]
The new company, SevcoScotland Ltd , desirous of becoming a football club and of taking the place of RFC plc of 1872, and having on 31 July 2012 renamed itself (with, in my opinion, deceitful intent) as The Rangers Football Club Ltd, applied for a share in the SPL. Their application was rejected virtually out-of-hand.
Their subsequent applications for membership of the First and Second divisions of the SFA were equally firmly rejected.
Finally, however, their application to be allowed to join the third Division was (not without controversy) accepted, and, in consequence, they were admitted as a new football club into the SFA.
If one looks now at the IPO Prospectus I believe that one can clearly see that it misleadingly implies (and possibly can be read to assert ) that the club of which RIFC plc is the holding company is the historic Rangers FC of 1872 foundation, and not the brand new football club created in 2012!
I think that that needs looking at.
And, of course, one has to question the legitimacy of the use of the name 'The Rangers Football Club Ltd' as being the deliberate use of a historic, famous and once respected name in order to disguise the fact that the football club presently using that name is not that historic club, but a new creation, and that the Rangers of 1872 is, as a matter of cast iron fact, awaiting dissolution as and when the Liquidators conclude their business.
Yours sincerely,
and , of course, with compliments of the season,
[me]
@JC
Precise and to the point
I noticed you left out the part where the original club* run by a knight of the realm operated an unlawful tax scam in order to spend that money on players they clearly couldn't afford then sold the business to a discredited businessman who had been barred from operating as a Director for 7 years who then failed to pay tax and NI spending that money on players they clearly couldn't afford before that business went into administration and liquidation or the last Chairman of the tribute club* was convicted of 41 counts of tax evasion and was then cold shouldered by the City for a period of 4 years for his behaviour during a hostile takeover and the current Board have once again ran up significant tax arrears while spending that same money on players they clearly cannot afford as shown in every set of accounts since they were formed just 8 years ago.
Been really busy of late folks, so progress on the new platform has been slow. Plan right now is to relaunch shortly after the new Year (possibly earlier if the festive period allows me to do more than usual).
No doubt there will be feature requests. I hope to have some folk beta testing either this weekend or next so we can anticipate problems moving forward.
If anyone is interested in being part of that – or indeed if anyone is interested in doing some behind the scenes techy-type work, please email me.
I'm away back to ignoring the media for another week 🙂
reasonablechap 6th December 2020 at 08:23
Fair questions and points.
…………..
· ROSS WILSON joined the ibrox club as their new Director of Football on 13/10/2019 and valued the squad as £100 king now believes it is worth £200 mill.
…
it’s reasonable to be confident that player sales will generate net revenue in 2021. Or another word Hope, it’s reasonable to be confident that already 2 transfer windows have passed with not much player sale profit.
………….
Based on 3 years of European results, I’d say we have a reasonable expectation to make the European group stages for next season,
…
Or another word Hope.
………………..
And as you say Covid19 makes nearly everything more difficult to call.
Hope of player sales and profit and a run in the champions league group stages was the hope that killed the last ibrox club, Let us just hope this ibrox club are not going down the same route when on top of everything Covid19 makes nearly everything more difficult to call.
…..
we’ll know more come next September.That is a long way to kick the can.
JC,
Perhaps an extension to your paragraph;
"The new company, SevcoScotland Ltd , desirous of becoming a football club and of taking the place of RFC plc of 1872, and having on 31 July 2012 renamed itself (with, in my opinion, deceitful intent) as The Rangers Football Club Ltd, applied for a share in the SPL. Their application was rejected virtually out-of-hand." With ten clubs voting against the application one club abstaining and only one of the 12 clubs, RFC plc of 1872 (in Administration) voting for the application. A brand new club applying to join and another different club voting to let them, highlights quite clearly the two clubs existed at the same time and cannot possibly be the same!
In case there is an interest . (from BBC Sport ).
Group F: Denmark, Austria, Scotland, Israel, Faroe Islands, Moldova
How does qualifying work?
Thirty-two teams will take part in the World Cup in Qatar, of which 13 will be from Europe.
The 10 group winners in qualifying will secure their place at the tournament while the 10 group runners-up will go through to the play-offs, along with the two best Nations League group winners who do not finish in the top two of their World Cup qualifying group.
The 12 play-off teams will be drawn into three separate play-off paths, each of which will comprise semi-finals and final, with the three winners heading to Qatar.
When are the World Cup qualifying group matches?
March 2021: Matchday 1-3
September 2021: Matchday 4-6
October 2021: Matchday 7-8
November 2021: Matchday 9-10
March 2022: Playoffs
paddy malarkey 7th December 2020 at 18:36
In case there is an interest . (from BBC Sport ).
—————————v——————-
Of great interest PM. Probably the best draw we could have got? Looking forward to yet another campaign! No much chance of travel though in the immediate future?
bordersdon 7th December 2020 at 20:23
A very good draw for us , imo . Better than what Wales and Norn Irn got , but not quite the luck of Engerland . And we should all be vaccinated by the second set of fixtures .
Reference the penalties for St Mirren and Kilmarnock for COVID infringements
I agree that they should be penalised, not sure about a points deduction though . However why should the opposing team gain 3 points ? Surely that is also penalising all the other teams in the league, as they still have to play all their games. A points deduction should have been applied and games should still be played
Timtim 7th December 2020 at 00:51
normanbatesmumfc 7th December 2020 at 13:31
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Thank you, gentlemen both, for your valid observations: I had already posted the letter before I saw your posts, or I would have tried to incorporate the gist of them .
I would say, though, that the Insolvency Service's powers seem to be quite limited in scope. Like the FCA, the laws they operate under are largely framed by parliamentarians many of whom are 'businessmen' and/or chummy with the 'corporate world' and are not too keen on making it easy to nail them.
I still can't get over the too-readiness (in my opinion) of the FCA and the Courts to let King two-finger them!
I may be entirely too gloomily cynical but I tend to think that the Insolvency Service ['IS']would behave the same as the FCA, and find reasons to let people off the hook rather than prosecute!
Still, there will a record of my letter on the IS files, and perhaps (who knows?) the fiendish cleverness of the timing of the re-naming of clubs, and the ambiguous use of initials to obfuscate and mislead ,might be considered as a teaching point for their 'inspectors' and raise questions about the abilities of Nomads ,and of the people in the FCA who let that Prospectus be issued!
@JC
I can only applaud your tenacity to hold these charlatans to account but I fear the game is rigged and these organisations that are meant to oversee fair play are really set up to deflect issues instead of solving them. However that doesn't mean we should give them a free pass to pi** on us and tell us it's raining . Of course (lest we forget) the SFA themselves didn't recognise them as the same club* when they included them in the 2nd round draw of the Scottish Cup against Forres Mechanics instead of the 4th round entry point they would have been entitled to for finishing the previous season as runners up in the SPL. I do however look foeward to any reply that may be forthcoming.
In other news our old friend Dave has been explaining to his pet hack at the ET how everyone in the boardroom is the bestest of friends.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18927220.dave-king-opens-fall-out-rumours-relationship-ibrox-board-rangers-share-sale-club-1872/?ref=twtrec
Timtim 7th December 2020 at 23:07
'..the SFA themselves didn't recognise them as the same club* when they included them in the 2nd round draw of the Scottish Cup against Forres Mechanics instead of the 4th round entry point they would have been entitled to for finishing the previous season as runners up in the SPL.'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Aye, Timtim, it's the wee detail (a fact well known to the CID!) that exposes the untruth of a suspect's statement.
There has never in the course of human history been a liar so skilled as not to have been sooner or later detected in a lie, because, psychologically, the liar himself knows that he is lying!
And that is a great handicap.
John Clark 6th December 2020 at 23:44
I follow an account on twitter that keeps track of Donald Trump's legal efforts to overturn the widely accepted reality of his defeat in the Presidential Election. I believe the current tally is 49 failures to one success.
I'm not sure if anyone has been keeping track of your own efforts to overturn the consensus (rival fans excluded) that Rangers FC is not a new club, but I suspect they make Trump's track record look impressively successful.
Does your constant failure, the relentless rejection of your point of view by the copiously varied sources to which you have applied over the last 10 years, not make you take the hint?
Nobody outside of social media echo chambers takes the new club thing seriously. Your personal failed efforts to prove otherwise, and those of others, are a laughing stock.
When your own allies in Auldheid and the Res 12 crowd step outside the echo chamber into the reality of legal representation – the costly reality – they don't touch the "new club" argument with a barge pole. I've seen the reams of text dedicated to the 2011 Licence issue. Barely a sentence, if that, of legal argument as to why the same club status of Rangers should be overturned.
Why is that? Would Auldheid and the Res 12 group not give their right arm to have it confirmed that Rangers FC are a new club? Let alone barely touch on it in the course of spending 10s of thousands of their hard earned £££ in securing legal representation?
They don't touch it because it's a childish fantasy, at home on social media where nonsense can be spoken free of charge and obsessed people can waste their time making fools of themselves, without having to pay for the privilege.
If I am incorrect, and the £10000s of legal representation secured by Auldheid etc did include attempts to over turn Rangers' status as the same club, you will of course oblige and point out the relevant sections.
bordersdon 7th December 2020 at 20:23
paddy malarkey 7th December 2020 at 18:36
Would hope by the September rounds there may be a chance to get to games if the vaccine roll out goes well. However in terms of away games can't see any great attraction other than Austria, don't really fancy the rest. Would consider Denmark if I can get a bank loan for a pint!!
“Old Firm ” Collusion?
Trade mark number
UK00002264673
List of events
Date
20 September 2020
Type
Sending of email/paper renewal reminder
Text
The E-mail Renewal Reminder has been sent at 20/09/2020
Date
22 November 2018
Type
Recordal registration. Recordal type: Change owner details
Text
Change of owner details has been recorded due to recordal RC000116100 received on date 30/10/2018; owner(s) Celtic F.C.Limited (id: 218706),Sevco Scotland Limited (id: 613831) has been updated to owner(s): Celtic F.C.Limited (id: 218706),The Rangers Football Club Limited (id: 613862)
Date
22 November 2018
Type
Recordal registration. Recordal type: Full assignment
Text
Full Assignment RC000115952 received on date 30/10/2018 has been recorded, resulting to the change of ownership from Celtic F.C.Limited (id: 218706, country: GB),The Rangers Football Club plc (id: 613657, country: GB) to Celtic F.C.Limited (id: 218706, country: GB),Sevco Scotland Limited (id: 613831, country: GB). The effective date of assignment is 14/06/2012.
Date
21 November 2018
Type
Edit owner
Text
Name and address details were amended.
Date
30 March 2013
Type
Edit representative
Text
Name and address details were amended.
Date
30 March 2013
Type
Edit representative
Text
Name and address details were amended.
Print trade mark history | Glossary of terms
brian_d84 8th December 2020 at 07:36
One of your own points can be turned back on your/itself.
If the current iteration of Rangers is the same club, that club must have lost many multi-millions of pounds when it was supposedly ‘illegally relegated’, then spent several seasons in the lower divisions, with much reduced income and no European football. Why then did it not take legal action to recover those millions? Even with the world’s most litigious man on board, pun intended (Dave King), Rangers* studiously avoided having the matter of the new entity’s status subjected to legal scrutiny, knowing that more than one judge had already laughed out of court the notion of an immortal, ethereal club. Charles Green had previously taken the legal route over a piffling little signing embargo, without punishment, so there was no reason to avoid court action, particularly since the value of perceived losses were exponentially higher.
Point 2 – if you were genuinely unconcerned by John Clark’s ongoing commendable battle, you wouldn’t feel compelled to visit this site to belie that lack of concern.
brian_d84 8th December 2020 at 07:36
'..Does your constant failure, the relentless rejection of your point of view by the copiously varied sources to which you have applied over the last 10 years, not make you take the hint? '
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Have I touched an exposed nerve?
Failure to get what? Liars to acknowledge that they are lying?
The entity that was the football club that was founded in 1872 was the entity that entered Liquidation in 2012 and ceased to exist as a football club precisely as many venerable football clubs have done .That is the incontrovertible fact.
The transfer of the emotional baggage of fans to a newly created club cannot make that new club the old club.
I note, incidentally, that the person who incorporated 'River House Capital Ltd' (company number 456869) on 15 August 2013 which
changed its name and status to ' River House Capital Community Interest Company' on 4 October 2013
and then to 'Club 1872 Projects Community Interest Company' on 30 June 2016,
did so as a representative of The Rangers Supporter's Society Ltd. (which is the sole shareholder of Club 1872 CIC)
was one of the founder members of the Scottish Football Supporters Association.(SFSA)
That perhaps explains in part the reluctance of the SFSA to tackle the deceit involved at the heart of football governance as a necessary preliminary to tackling honestly and openly the manifold problems that beset the sport and about which there is legitimate room to have differing 'opinions ' and seek consensus on possible solutions.
brian
I have altered some of your comments about social media a tad to read …
"…where nonsense can be spoken (written surely) free of charge and obsessed people (i.e. liquidation deniers like me) waste their time making fools of themselves, without having to pay for the privilege"
I think that is more meaningful to most of the posters on here, reduces the idiocy of your comments, gives you more credibility, and indicates a self awareness sadly lacking in SEVCO 'camp followers' – which include the agenda driven SMSM.
If, as seems likely, the 8 year old club wins their first major domestic trophy, it will be heralded as number 55 – another shocking indictment on how the truth can be suppressed.
Finally, John, of all people, will never give up on his mission to expose the 'big lie', so you're wasting your time attacking him.
wottpi 8th December 2020 at 07:53
———————v——————-
Both Austria and Denmark would be expensive guys but a night or so in either would be worth it
brian_d84 8th December 2020 at 07:36
Nobody outside of social media echo chambers takes the new club thing seriously.
……………
That is a narrative i have stumbled on a bit of recently.
Social media is one of the most popular online activities that users engage in around the world. There are 3.5 Billion social media users worldwide.So enough social media echo chambers to go around. 45% of the population. If John and others can capture just 1% or less, good for them.
A small percentage of folk inside the social media echo chamber take the new club thing seriously otherwise they would not protest so much.
brian_d84
in the year of liquidation the old club came second in the league,why did they not play in europe,why did rfc limited have a vote to vote sevco into the spl,why did a lot of their players walk away mid contract,you can say no one cares,trust me,we do,if you want to think in your head it's the same club,fair play crack on,the rest of us have a brain,oh any chance you still have your show liquidation the red card piece of cardboard in the house,asking for a friend
The life of Brian
”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/18964226
Rangers: Kelty anger after testimonial is called off
Last updated on
23 July 201223 July 2012.From the section Football
Kelty Hearts have criticised the Scottish FA after the Fife juniors were forced to postpone a pre-season friendly against the new Rangers.
The Ibrox outfit were unable to play because the SFA has yet to approve the club’s membership.
“So a thanks must go to the SFA for having a negative impact on not only the top end of Scottish football but the lower end also,” said Kelty.
The testimonial game for an experienced Kely midfielder will be re-arranged.
We are all gutted with all the work done sending tickets out etc
Kelty Hearts
Ally McCoist’s side have only played games behind closed doors at their Murray Park training ground as they are not licensed to play official fixtures.
They are due to play their first game of the season, against Brechin City in the Ramsdens Cup, on Saturday”
We feel your hurt but it is what it is.
tony 8th December 2020 at 17:38
oh any chance you still have your show liquidation the red card piece of cardboard in the house,asking for a friend
……………
The Red card against Liquidation has always intrigued me.
On the one hand, as you suggest, did any fans keep that red card as a bit of a memento thinking this could be a piece of history to show i was there to save the club from liquidation. A kind of token to show off to the grankids, Look what your grandad has a piece of red card from the day in the clubs history were we had a demonstration and saved the club from liquidation, i could never sell it you see as it is priceless a great part of the tradition of the fans making a stand to save the club.
Or on the other hand.. Grandad did you hold up a piece of red card to save the club from liquidation?
Never happened kid, all those pictures are fake, photoshopped, social media for you. Now go away and play.
Who knows, if the red card display did really help the club against liquidation. wonder just how much that little piece of history would be worth today?
May even have found a place for it in the museum the ibrox club are planning on building.
bigboab1916 8th December 2020 at 19:39
‘…’..as they are not licensed to play official fixtures’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Ha, ha, nice one, bigboab.
That must have been the last honest bit of Football Governance there has been in the ‘saga’.
And then they had to resort to lying, to their perpetual ignominy and shame as individual persons and collectively as ‘Football Governance’
There can be no ‘moving on’ until Governance makes a statement that TRFC is not Rangers of 1872 and may not claim any of the titles and honours of that club.
Cluster One 8th December 2020 at 20:22
…
Who knows, if the red card display did really help the club against liquidation. wonder just how much that little piece of history would be worth today?
May even have found a place for it in the museum the ibrox club are planning on building.
============================
Apparently the Ibrox museum will have a novel dating convention applied to artefacts on display;
B.C. Before Craig
A.D. After Demotion (*cough*)
And for balance: the planned CFC museum should soon take delivery of an historical artefact to put on display…
Peter Lawwell.
StevieBC 8th December 2020 at 21:26
'…delivery of an historical artefact to put on display…Peter Lawwell.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""'
…in a place of honour as "The man who might have shopped us, but didn't!"
Cluster One 8th December 2020 at 15:28
That is a narrative i have stumbled on a bit of recently.
Social media is one of the most popular online activities that users engage in around the world. There are 3.5 Billion social media users worldwide.So enough social media echo chambers to go around. 45% of the population. If John and others can capture just 1% or less, good for them.
A small percentage of folk inside the social media echo chamber take the new club thing seriously otherwise they would not protest so much.
=======%%%=======
I read your post and the term clutching at slippery straws comes to mind. In fact it actually reminds me of when Charles Green came out with the 500 million fanbase claim.
I’d ask Brian84 to leave John and his indefatigable ability to connect any god given subject into a midnight missive on the Rangers, well alone. We need some humour in these generally dark times.
Reasonable WC draw for Scotland but we need to keep improving if we want to finish above Denmark and/or Austria because at the moment, we seem to be on a par with Israel. The age profile of the squad is right but we lack some quality (depth) up front to hurt sides like Denmark (2 recent clean sheets against England). …Given we now play a 3-5-2,…what about James Tavernier (via residency criteria*) ? He is currently the most effective player in the SPFL.
*If that is indeed the case
Who has described “The Scotsman” newspaper” as
“This historic bastion of journalistic integrity ..” before going on to say ” [we are] proud of the breadth and quality of our coverage of sport ”
Let me tell you: none other than Euan McGrory , editor of that very journal.
Proud that his football reporters subscribe to and support and propagate the biggest piece of deceitful hooey and absolute b.lls that Scottish football governance foisted on the supporters of the sport of football, in their denial of a plain, objective commercial and sporting fact, namely that the football club known as Glasgow Rangers of 1872 foundation is in Liquidation , and that The Rangers FC founded in 2012 is not, and could not possibly be, the Rangers of 1872.
The man’s got a blo.dy insulting cheek to solicit our financial help to keep his paper in existence.
[Full page advert in today’s issue of ‘The Scotsman’, headed ” We have been by your side, bringing news that you trust-since 1817″ ]
reasonablechap 9th December 2020 at 06:37
I read your post and the term clutching at slippery straws comes to mind.
…
In what way?
………………
Charles Green came out with the 500 million fanbase claim.
…
Some ibrox fans believed that claim and some still do.
Suppose the only people who understand Liquidation and its impact would be legal minds, if only there were some to explain to us what it means. Oh wait a minute.
And i suppose the media who understand the concept of liquidation as well.
”
cannot pass on that which is undefinable, this is a new Rangers,” Donald Findlay QC .
Alan Dewar QC,
The Rangers football club does not exist, it is an idea in people’s minds, a myth of continuity. No-one knows what the Rangers football club is, but it has no legal personality.”
Mr Dewar adds that ” you can only be the chairman of an entity that has a legal personality. Sevco Scotland, and it alone, bought the assets and carried on the business. The concept of the Rangers Institution continuing exists only in the minds of die hard supporters.”
https://angelahaggerty.com/why-the-word-sevco-matters/
A wee bit of help at last .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/55254701
https://www.bdo.co.uk/getmedia/855077e6-42e9-4126-adfb-39ea4c869cb2/RFC-2012-PLC-Progress-Report-to-30-10-2020.pdf.aspx
……………….
The joint Liquidators had sought detailed explanations regarding certain aspects of the strategy implemented by the joint Administrators during the Administration. A substantive response to our requests was not recieved and we continue to liaise closely with the committee in considering the further actions in relation to these investigations.
This matter has now been progressed and formal legal action has commenced. The former joint Administrators have defended the action to date and should matters progress to an evidential hearing in the court of session this will commence on 4 May 2021.
Another court date.
Cluster One 10th December 2020 at 18:19
‘..Another court date.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
And there was I, yesterday, annoyed at having missed a continuation hearing of David Grier’s damages action v both the Lord Advocate and the polis!( I hadn’t been checking the court Rolls as diligently a before)
But I also had forgotten to check up for the Liquidators’ report to creditors!
Well done you!
Maybe by May 2021 the Courts might be back to normal, and I will enjoy physically attending any ‘evidential hearing.’
That would be in the world of ‘civil’ not ‘criminal’ law.
And I am quite interested. Given that the criminal charges against the Administrators were dropped, to their enormous personal financial advantage, of course[but what’s a few million quid compared to the worth of your good name!!] it remains to be seen whether the creditors of the Liquidated football club will manage to nail the Administrators for incompetence, lack of proper care and concern in seeking a buyer, a perhaps too readiness to choose a buyer to whom to sell some of the assets whose offer to buy at £x was not perhaps made to other would-be buyers of assets!
Lots of fun and knowledge of the law as she is practised still to be had!
You’ve cheered me up!
Cluster One 10th December 2020 at 18:19
John Clark 10th December 2020 at 22:49
———————————-
BRS Glossary Document SWUC350
"Given the highly sensitive nature of the proceedings at this stage, we are unable to provide any more
detail in respect of the claim."
———————————-
Will inevitably be settled out of court and no dirty washing aired in public.
John Clark 10th December 2020 at 22:49
……………
Star wars day as it is now known now May the 4th.
Looking back May 4, 2012 Bill Miller American Dream.
Crossbar challenge May 4, 2013.
Big push for rangers supporters trust fund to go live on the 5th. May 4th 2014.
Craig whyte trial reports fraudsters tried to buy club May 4, 2017.
Lots more fun to come
I am not comfortable with public funds being used to support private enterprise at any time. Either the enterprise is owned and operated by and for the benefit of the tax payer or it stands accountable to its shareholders who must decide the best course of action. Should the government of the day seek to invest public money in private enterprise then we should expect a reasonable return or dividend on such. Football should not be an exception. I see low interest loans are mentioned, perhaps this could be limited to a maximum of £100000 and anything above charged at commercial rates. This would ensure the wider football community would benefit without advantage being offered to larger concerns.
gunnerb 10th December 2020 at 22:56
'..Will inevitably be settled out of court and no dirty washing aired in public.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Perhaps that will depend on whether Duff and Phelps, the international firm, want, on the basis of what they might have been told, to support the Administrators or throw them to the lions?
Their good name is of world-wide importance to them.
Would I use D&P if my [hypothetical!] business was at the stage of looking for an Administrator?
Absolutely not!
If I had a friend( small chance!) or a brother whose business was unable to to continue would I recommend D&P as Administrators?
Absolutely not.
And that's what D&P international have to take into account: the track record.
And everybody knows that being 'settled out of court' is little more than an admission that the truth is that the other party has won, and lets minimise the damages and costs.
Admittedly off topic, but I do wonder about modern day journalists' understanding, and command, of basic English e.g.
"Simon Jordan fears for Neil Lennon who may have an 'unwritable' ship" (Transfer Tavern – Nathan Linley)
John Clark 10th December 2020 at 22:49
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Cluster One 10th December 2020 at 18:19
‘..Another court date.’
……………………
This caught my eye and thoughts on another court date.
…
Soon BDO will take over as liquidator of Rangers Football Club PLC (RFC PLC). This will bring to an end the involvement of the administrators, Duff and Phelps (D+P) and will open up for BDO the possibility of various steps to be taken in the interests of creditors.
https://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/07/07/sevco-director-admits-rangers-assets-bought-at-undervalue-liquidator-should-take-assets-back/
11 Dec 2020 Statement of capital following an allotment of shares on 10 December 2020
………………
Is it a share issue every month to keep the lights on?
You would imagine their opponents , especially in Europe , would be looking at the state of their finances and the fact they are behind in social taxes , and wondering why they are being allowed to buy players and deprive others of prize money .
I wonder whether it is Club 1872 Projects Community Interest Company that has bought 1,375,000 shares for £275K?
That would bring their percentage of the total to 8.78%
29952838 divided by
340991872
x 100% = 8.7840328347%
making Club 1872 the 4th largest shareholder.
[If my figures are wrong, blame my first maths teacher at secondary school!]
Is there any legal mechanism that could prevent King selling just such proportion of his holding that would make Club 1872 the single largest shareholder? Would the present Board have powers to prevent a sale to any body that King wanted to sell his shares to? Could RIFC plc compulsorily purchase them back?
Cluster One 11th December 2020 at 15:55
‘..This will bring to an end the involvement of the administrators, Duff and Phelps (D P)..’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
It has to be remembered that Lord Hodge had a wee query or so to be answered before he felt able to discharge the Administrators as having met all their legal requirements in the sense that they had done their duty under the law and had not infringed any actual law.
However, whether they had fully lived up to the norms of their professional body by, for example, arbitrarily selecting CG as the chosen purchaser of assets without giving the other failed bidders ( Walter’s consortium, or Mr Ng or Bill the trucker, for example) a chance to bid might be another question.
Griffith -v- P ( in my inbox today)
Here's a wee 'contempt of court' case, where a wee wumman , with no record of criminality, is sent to the pokey for 12 months, no messing about.
Neutral Citation Number: [2020] EWCA Civ 1675 Case No: B4/2020/1805 IN THE COURT OF APPEAL (CIVIL DIVISION)
Judgment published on 11-12-2020 02:08 PM GMT
Of course, I make no comparison between 'forging a Court order' and flagrantly disobeying a Court order. Not complying with an order to do something ( King) is not in the same category as forging a Court Order thereby interfering with the administration of justice(the wee wumman)
But still…some folk seem to be dealt with extraordinarily leniently for giving two fingers to the Court while other folk……
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/29million-rangers-court-claim-against-23155084.amp?__twitter_impression=true
The liquidator of Oldco Rangers has launched a £29million court case against administrators Duff & Phelps over their refusal to sell Ibrox stadium.
BDO says the stadium – and the club’s training complex, corporate brand and players – should have been cashed in and the money put towards the multi-million pound mountain of debt.
The case is to be heard in Scotland’s highest civil court in May next year and will point back to February 14, 2012, when Duff & Phelps were appointed administrators of the club after it fell into financial ruin during the ownership of Craig Whyte.
…………….
Something we spoke about the other day, good of the SMSM to catch up.
‘John Clark 11th December 2020 at 20:14
I wonder whether it is Club 1872 Projects Community Interest Company that has bought 1,375,000 shares for £275K?…
[If my figures are wrong, blame my first maths teacher at secondary school!]’
#############################
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC437060/filing-history
According to the PDF attached to the first entry in the above link, it’s 13,750,000 (thirteen million, seven hundred & fifty thousand) shares that have been issued. At 20p each, that’s £2.75m.
What could that be needed for?
Working capital?
Deferred wages?
Transfer payment(s)?
Taxes?
Something else?
Jingso.Jimsie 12th December 2020 at 11:35
".. it's 13,750,000 (thirteen million, seven hundred & fifty thousand) shares that have been issued. At 20p each, that's £2.75m.2
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Ha ha, Jingo, that makes me a bit like Eric Morecambe-right figures but wrong order! Thanks for that correction.
Lausanne, 11 December 2020 – The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS)
“…the 2020/21 UEFA Nations League match between Switzerland and Ukraine, that was scheduled to be played in Lucerne on 17 November 2020, was declared forfeited 3-0 by Ukraine.”
Ukraine has appealed to CAS against that decision, asking that the match be re-scheduled or decided by UEFA drawing lots!
(The Ukrainians had been put into mandatory Covid-19 quarantine and couldn’t field a team. Any hope there for St Mirren?)
Cluster One 12th December 2020 at 09:58
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/29million-rangers-court-claim-against-23155084.amp?__twitter_impression=true
…BDO says the stadium – and the club’s training complex, corporate brand and players – should have been cashed in and the money put towards the multi-million pound mountain of debt…
=================
I realise that the link is to a DR article, so accuracy is highly questionable, but IIRC;
– Murray Park wasn't sellable due to a 'joint arrangement' with Sport Scotland?
– in 2012 there were doubts about the stadium and who actually had "ra deeds" – but presumably it WAS sellable initially?
– the IP / brand was sellable. Is that now generating a revenue stream for Charles Green today? (Only guessing).
– don't know about the players though. If D&P tried to sell them, could they have just refused to leave and walk away for nothing – like Macgregor and Naismith, (IIRC?).
StevieBC 12th December 2020 at 12:33
It will be nine years since the death of rangers that BDO will have their day in court. The debenture holders and creditors will be cheering them on i would expect.
2010 Murray did a u-turn on the sale at £33mill when Andrew Ellis and Chris Akers tried to buy it.
…
A representative from Rangers Unite asked the board “What would you see as an exit price?” Imran replied that he believed on a bad day the club was worth £50 million.July 2012
StevieBC 12th December 2020 at 12:33
'.. If D&P tried to sell them, could they have just refused to leave and walk away for nothing ..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
That threw me back to have another read at Lady Stacey's judgment in
"The Rangers Football Club Ltd (Formerly Sevco Scotland Ltd) v 1) Professional Footballers Association Scotland 2) R F C 2012 Plc (In Liquidation) [UKEATS/0038/13/SM] "
Like many other people, Lady Stacey seemed to use language inconsistently.
In para 5, she records "..The claim arises from the sale of Rangers Football Club by the second respondent to the first respondent in June 2012. ..'
And later she seems to have forgotten she had used the 'the sale of Rangers Football Club' and began to talk about 'assets' being purchased:
Para 43 ……"He was also entitled to refer, in the circumstances of this case, to the “disintegration” of Rangers. It is hard to see why that should be thought to be offensive, when as the EJ commented, there was much comment in the media at the time using such terms. In any event, the first respondent had purchased assets from the administrators and so any reference to “disintegration” was not pejorative of them. It did not seem to me to be pejorative of anybody"
It is beyond my comprehension how this notion that CG had bought the football club whole and entire was ever swallowed by anyone, when it is so evidently untrue. If he had done so, there would have been no need for the creation of SevcoScotland/TRFC Ltd, no hassle with Transfers under TUPE, no need new contracts to be signed by anyone then employed at Ibrox……
And for journalists and others to have allowed themselves to be cowed into not openly declaring that RFC of 1872 ceased to exist and was not bought and brought out of Administration is a shocking indictment of their integrity.
In my opinion;
and we have been singularly ill-served at many levels since the cheating by SDM first began.
TUPE or not TUPE
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/rangers-in-crisis-players-will-not-be-in-breach-1129188
The rags before the myth and the realisation the end was nigh
” However, on the advice of their union, PFA Scotland, numerous players have rejected the opportunity to transfer their contracts from Rangers to Sevco. ”
”
The union believe players could leave for free and Wishart tonight raised the prospect of legal action should any who wish to do so be prevented from leaving Ibrox by the football authorities.
In a statement, Wishart said: “Should the players wish to transfer across to the newco, TUPE ensures that they do so on their existing contractual terms.
“Equally TUPE affords every employee the statutory right to object to the transfer; employers cannot select which parts of TUPE they wish to apply.
“If a player wishes to object to being transferred his contract of employment would immediately come to an end leaving him with no contract, no dismissal and no right to compensation from either oldco or newco.
“Both the club and the player are then free from their contractual obligations.”
Some within the football authorities believe any player exercising their right to leave could be subject to a test case that could involve FIFA and the Court of Arbitration for Sport given that they will still be registered to Rangers with the SPL.
bigboab1916 12th December 2020 at 19:47
From that article –
Green is poised to push ahead with a £5.5million deal to buy the club's assets and form a new club, which would need to apply for membership of the Scottish Premier League and be excluded from Europe for three years.
No journalist put his/her name to it , but I think that was the general way of thinking about the situation at the time .
I have come to the conclusion that the general way of thinking about the situation now is that Craig Whyte simply unplugged Rangers* and Charles Green plugged them back in again.
Cluster One 12th December 2020 at 09:58
Something we spoke about years ago.
As soon as the CVA was rejected all focus should have been on maximising the return for the creditors, that clearly did not happen and they continued on as before, to seek as much continuity as possible between the old club and the new, to retain the assets and sell them on at a fractions of what they were worth.
The assets were sold way under price and the release of negative goodwill in the first set of account (about £20m if I remember) is just admitting that.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/negativegoodwill.asp#:~:text=Negative%20goodwill%20(NGW)%20refers%20to,a%20fraction%20of%20their%20worth.
Homunculus 13th December 2020 at 13:10
'..the release of negative goodwill in the first set of account (about £20m if I remember) is just admitting that.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I think that's the first time I've really understood the concept of 'negative goodwill', Homunculus, and I'm grateful for your explanation.
One thing that still puzzles me is why, it seems, none of the other bidders to purchase the club to keep it going as a 'going concern' did not squeal at the time about the arbitrary selection of Green as the 'preferred' one who could pick up the assets cheap, while the club went into liquidation?
Why Green? why did the Administrators think that would best for them, for the creditors? A short bidding war for the assets would surely have raised at least a few tens of thousands more for the creditors.
I really hope BDO are a cut above the FCA when it comes to getting right into things so that we can be assured that there's no nice wee '(un) gentlemanly agreement' to mask any failures in duty or any professional incompetence by the Administrators in how the Administration was conducted.
The whole feckin saga has just about destroyed any belief I may have had in anything to do with 'Financial regulation' or the legal framework in which the business and commercial worlds operate.
I'm with Stevie G – not an elbow , more of a forearm smash . https://twitter.com/i/status/1338095621723615232
John Clark 13th December 2020 at 14:02
I really hope BDO are a cut above the FCA when it comes to getting right into things
…………….
They waited this long to get the administrators to court. May have got there sooner if the administrators had not been arrested. I think i remember BDO had to wait until all that was cleared up first.
Cluster One 13th December 2020 at 22:43
‘.. I think i remember BDO had to wait until all that was cleared up first…’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””
I think you remember correctly.
We had all the f ‘arse’ of perhaps one of the most incompetently handled [even down to basic clerical work such as making sure that everybody , including the judge, was literally reading from the same page] criminal prosecutions that the Scottish Courts have ever seen, to get through first!
As I’ve said before, and not being a lawyer, I sat there wondering ( by no means asserting as a fact!)whether any case for a prosecution could ever have been so badly put, so poorly prepared for, so ill-researched and so half-heartedly presented(as it seemed to me)as to suggest that the Prosecution had no great desire to secure anything other than that the Judge would toss the whole thing out!
Believe me, I was embarrassed for the Advocate-Deputy!
If he had had a good, or reasonable case, he buggered it up.
If he had had an unwinnable case, it was a nonsense to bring it.
That’s what I, ‘unlearned’ in the law [God, how they love the historic crap, ‘one of Her Majesty’s Counsel, learned in the law’!] and being just a Joe Bloggs sitting in the public seats of a Courtroom thought, and think.
The ‘saga’ has maybe opened a wee lid on a number of things that may be needing looked at: for instance, settlements out of court , or abandonment of criminal charges, that mean that the rest of us don’t get to hear the whole truth.
And the Celtic plc AGM is tomorrow [sheesh, it's this morning! as Mrs C has just let me know by a rabbit- foot thumping on the floor above!], so, quickly, what can we expect re Res 12/now 11?
More of the same waffle? denial, let's move on? 10IAR ? we're behind you , Neil, ?- and untruth as before?
I hope I have the techy skills to hear/view the proceedings. If I can be bothered to listen to the cant.(That's a letter A in there, btw!)
I will not be lied to: not by wife, sons, brother, best friends, Boris, Nicola or anybody else; and the curse of Cromwell on any Celtic Board that lies to me, even if I am nothing but a tuppence ha'penny shareholder with no power.
On which high-flown note of moral indignation I take my leave of you.
The SFA, SPFL and the clubs have acknowledged – numerous times publicly – that they need fans inside the stadiums.
The fans have generally helped out with paying for ST renewals, PPV, merchandise – and during a financially challenging period for all.
Now, the same fans – taxpayers – will no doubt be funding the proposed 'bailout' offered by the Scottish government.
So, with all this financial support to the game…
now would seem like an opportune time for the Hampden blazers to radically change their attitude to fan involvement, feedback and complaints?
A generic e-mail address which doesn't even generate an autoreply is not acceptable – and never was – for fans to 'try' and communicate with the SFA and SPFL.
The PLC have made their FINAL decision…..Resolution 11 voted down
97.18 per cent vote against the resolution.
Or you could say that they have simply answered the above blog post title
#MovingOn
Can those Celtic fans who are unconditionally attached to this issue, continue to support the club ?
Mr Denier (RC)
You do not understand the resolution and the outcome of the vote and the FACT the PLC are taking it further.
Go back to your klan this is not finished ……unlike your former club now in LIQUIDATION.
PbyE
I understand that over 97% is quite a sizable percentage and that Mr.Bankier was always likely to talk in appeasing but ultimately meaningless woolly phrases.
"…There’s no firm timetable, but we can assure our shareholders we will provide an update when we possibly can…."
I have a couple of bridges to sell to anyone interested.
paraniodbyexperience 14th December 2020 at 13:13
'.. the FACT the PLC are taking it further. '
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Yes.
I'm not as happy as I would have been if Celtic had gone for the jugular in 2012 and publicly challenged the award of a UEFA competitions licence to CW's club, seeking police investigation of possible criminal conspiracy[as they ought to have done]
It's too late to do so now.
But I'm reasonably content that Bankier's statement is a kick in the shooglies for some of the liars in football governance at that time.
Those prime liars will live out the rest of their despicable lives knowing that they are seen to be such even by those for the sake of whom they made liars of themselves.
May they never prosper
John Clark 13th December 2020 at 14:02
One thing that still puzzles me is why, it seems, none of the other bidders to purchase the club to keep it going as a 'going concern' did not squeal at the time about the arbitrary selection of Green as the 'preferred' one who could pick up the assets cheap, while the club went into liquidation?
Why Green? why did the Administrators think that would best for them, for the creditors? A short bidding war for the assets would surely have raised at least a few tens of thousands more for the creditors.
==============================================
Absolutely none of that was a factor in the administrator's decision making from what I can see. The creditors were irrelevant.
They were working towards a pre-determined outcome involving Whyte and Green, There may have been a bit of improvisation when the CVA was rejected and Whyte was no longer required but other than that I firmly believe it was a pre-determined outcome. Let's wait and see what is determined by the ongoing proceedings.
Remember the sale did not go ahead with the preferred bidder / chosen one. The assets were sold to another company with a very similar name, Sevco Scotland Ltd. No-one seems to ever have answered the question, when was that agreed. I believe novation requires all parties to agree to it.
The aim was a CVA, a debt free Rangers, still the same club, still in the top division of the league etc.
When that was rejected and liquidation (ongoing) started there was a wee bit of the truth, then the re-writing of history, then where we are now.
Homunculus
I think it fairly obvious that D&P (C, W and Grier) were baically in, on what was largely, a pre-determined outcome.
The authorities have managed to F**k up what was to be fair, an extremely complex case, so badly that the focus is on them, although it'll be Joe Punter who has to pay for it.
You go back to the issue of conflict involving Grier. How they could come up with there not being any was crazy.
Homunculus 14th December 2020 at 14:02
'..No-one seems to ever have answered the question, when was that agreed.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I am put in mind of the Charlottes Fakes tape of a drink-taken CG on the phone telling/reminding CW '..You are Sevco…'
As you rightly say, no one has ever seen anything that shows that D&P were authorised by Sevco5088 to sell to any other purchaser than Sevco5088.
The whole truth of the entire disgraceful 'saga' will sooner or later come to light, perhaps when some at least of the wretched individuals involved have, like RFC of 1872 itself, died the death.
reasonablechap 14th December 2020 at 13:50
Is one of them the Chinvat Bridge , perchance ?
More share movement at RIFC – looks like 50,000 @ 20p .
14 Dec 2020Statement of capital following an allotment of shares on 14 December 2020
View PDF Statement of capital following an allotment of shares on 14 December 2020
– link opens in a new window – 3 pages(3 pages)
Sorry , for some reason can't post the link .
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC437060/filing-history
Probably the smallest ever issue (will check) to raise 10k . It looks like every time a bill comes in they issue some shares to whoever sends the latest cheque . Money too tight to mention , definitely maybe. This isn’t investment this is drip feeding life support medication. Nobody on the Board is giving one penny more than is necessary .
They should however progress further in the europa league after being drawn against Antwerp who are on a par with Standard Liege as a mid table Belgian outfit.
PS – smallest issue by a long way.next smallest raised 1m
PPS – always the possibility the previous bill from 4 days ago was 10k short from Honest Mistake PLC , all sorted now the cheques in the post
Timtim 14th December 2020 at 19:06
'…This isn’t investment this is drip feeding life support medication.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
That gave me a laugh, Timtin. I clicked on the 'thumbs up' thumb. Extraordinarily, instead of adding to the 6 already there, my click seemed not only not to make it 7, but to reduce the 6 to zero!
Sorry about that.
Some kind of glitch, I expect, unless I've been banned from clicking ,up or down!
Homunculus 14th December 2020 at 14:02
No-one seems to ever have answered the question, when was that agreed. I believe novation requires all parties to agree to it.
……………
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13061560.rangers-football-club-born-1872-died-2012/
…
But it emerged last night Mr Green may yet face a challenge in his attempts to purchase the business and assets, with three other “newco” offers expected
Paul Clark, of administrators Duff & Phelps, said there was a full “fall-back plan and that is the sale of business and assets to the Charles Green consortium” and added: “There is no avenue for anyone else to come in at this stage.”
John Clark 14th December 2020 at 17:13
I think BDO's £29m civil action against the administrator is more likely to bring out more of the truth than a botched criminal action by Crown Office as reported to them by Police Scotland.
BDO have taken their time, presumably investigated the matter properly and think they have enough to take the matter to the civil Courts. I would be surprised if they don't instruct top civil lawyers to carry out the action on their behalf.
Bearing in mind BDO have probably already spent a lot of the money they have brought in, another £29m would be a nice wee addition to the pot.
paddy malarkey 14th December 2020 at 18:2
"..Is one of them the Chinvat Bridge , perchance ?."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
The nearest "bridges to 'Paradise'"(!) that I remember, pm, were those over the railway line that ran up from R'glen that crossed first London Road and then the Gallowgate ,behind the Celtic end of Celtic Park football stadium!
Parkhead Station , I suppose, might be thought of as leading to Celtic Park, but there wasn't a bridge-the line went underground beneath Springfield road!( It was shown in timetables as the station for Celtic Park)
I enjoyed that reference to Chivat- I knew nothing of Zoroastrianism- for reminding me of that great scene in the 'Indiana Jones and the last crusade' movie, where our hero steps out into the void in an act of faith and an 'unseen' bridge supports him as he crosses!
Might there be more to the reasonable chap's merchandise?
Homunculus 14th December 2020 at 22:34
"…I would be surprised if they don't instruct top civil lawyers to carry out the action on their behalf."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I'm pretty sure, Homunculus, that they must already have scouted around for, and instructed, the best QCs in the field of disputed 'Administrations'; and I would not be at all surprised if they have gone south and found an English QC ( if such an one is entitled to appear in a Scottish Court on a matter of UK civil legislation?)
[I think there must be some understanding in the higher levels of the legal profession that accepting a hopeless brief, or even a brief that , while having some merit , has no realistic chance of ultimate success, simply to get the fees, is a no-no.
There must be some honourable [and feckin competent!] lawyers and advocates and QCs !
Even although the 'saga' suggests the contrary.
Cluster One 14th December 2020 at 22:04
'…Paul Clark, of administrators Duff & Phelps,..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Whatever about the D&P chap, he at least laughed when I told him my favourite joke:
Christmas time, customer in the off-licence-' two bottles of Bells, three bottles of voddy, some baccardi, couple o' dozen cans Tennents 'Special' , some IrnBru and tonic..'
The guy that serves him remarks, 'aye, expensive time, Christmas, eh?'
'Aye', says the customer, 'if it wisnae for the weans, we widnae bother!'
I was in France when I first heard that joke, and I totally collapsed in laughter.
( Ok, suit yersels: I thought it was funny)
John Clark @ 14th December 2020 at 13:58
I’m not as happy as I would have been if Celtic had gone for the jugular in 2012 and publicly challenged the award of a UEFA competitions licence to CW’s club, seeking police investigation of possible criminal conspiracy[as they ought to have done]
It’s too late to do so now.
But I’m reasonably content that Bankier’s statement is a kick in the shooglies for some of the liars in football governance at that time.
==========%%==========
So you are putting your trust into a group who have previously been consigned to your black book of dishonesty !
Quite a leap in faith,… Seems you have lessened the charge to somewhere in the vicinity of careless oversight. …..or in other words, you are moving-on regards the part the PLC have played so you can still support the club on the park.
Bankier’s statement is to appease and kick the can out of sight, period. Anyone who thinks otherwise is welcome to make an offer for that bridge I’m selling.
"…(Sevco) Managing Director says Celtic being awarded title left sour taste …" Adam Miller – HITC
If CFC were not legitimate winners, as Stewpot and many deluded followers of the 8 year old club would have us believe, what's the big deal about stopping 10IAR?
reasonablechap 15th December 2020 at 07:13
"…regards the part the PLC have played .."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Just to be absolutely clear: Celtic plc played no 'part' in the suspected irregular granting of a UEFA licence to CW's club. If there were irregularities, or even crime, Celtic plc were victims!
My charge against them is that they failed to act in the way I would have wished them to act when information began to accumulate, information which clearly suggested at least that not all that was done in respect of checking entitlement to that licence was properly done.
However, I do live in the real world!
I recognise that it is not for Celtic plc to 'police' the Governance of Scottish Football, or interrogate 'suspect' clubs, or single-handedly try to root out any generalised corruption that there may.
I recognise that there is no law that says that a football club which thinks it may have been wronged, or swindled, MUST tackle the wrongdoer or swindler seek independent investigation, even if that were to it cause it further damage of any sort.
I recognise that the Board of a PLC may have a view about what is 'best for the company ' that differs from mine.
My view was/is that there were indications enough that there had been some hanky-panky by RFC of 1872 perhaps with the collaboration of the SFA, and certainly helped by, the inefficiency/incompetence of SFA officers: hanky-panky aimed at misleading The Licensing authority.
Given the scale of the cheating by Rangers of 1872 which was becoming common knowledge in 2012, I personally would have wished Celtic plc to have screamed aloud for thorough investigation by a body outwith Scottish Football.
I very much regret that the Board did not and does not believe that getting difficult situations investigated and properly resolved is 'the best for the Company', and chose instead to temporise for years , possibly lying a bit to the Res12 requisitioners, hoping that the issue would disappear.
I am not proud of the Board: I think they lacked moral conviction and/or courage.
Having said that, I must repeat that to my mind Bankier's statement came as close to damning the SFA as it could without him opening himself up to legal action by the SFA!
The passage of time will ,of course, see the present Board members removed in the ordinary way.
However, unlike RFC of 1872, Celtic FC will not die [unless of course Covid-19 causes the death of professional football altogether] and perhaps future Board members may have a different moral compass.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55321442
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55323209
"we need to start moving one or two players a year. It won't be a big turnover in the squad but that is something we need to do"
"While player trading is the important fourth pillar to our model, we have not got ourselves in a position where we have to sell to validate the model. That's not the case."
So they need to sell but they don't need to sell , nothing like a clear and concise statement . In the meantime loans will come from Douglas Park and John Bennet even though neither of them would give that commitment to the auditors in writing . They could of asked club 1872 to loan them money or even to buy shares but apparently they would rather that cash was sent to Dave King . One club member asked that very question on twitter earlier but the club requested the issue wasn't dragged into the public domain. Maybe Park and Bennet are prepared to bail out the club* or at least keep them afloat in the off chance they will one day turn a profit but they certainly won't bail out King , that's what the mugs at club 1872 are for. The one outcome of all this is that club 1872 won't be able to provide any finance to the club* for the next 3 years .Even before today's decision Morelos was already the most red carded player in the histories of either Rangers* clubs. I hope they aren't reliant on a big offer from an unfit,overweight, off form, petulant thug to save their bahookeys .Actually…….. I hope they are.
2 days and 2 quite differently received / reported AGM’s.
1 club is relatively well run off the field, but not on it.
1 club is relatively recklessly run off the field, but is delivering consistent results on the field.
I think I know the answer for CFC – but the cost would make Lawwell’s eyes water.
CFC has to swoop for Gerrard – and his entire backroom staff – immediately.
…and that could guarantee 10IAR as well.
John Clark @ 15th December 2020 at 17:07
...I very much regret that the Board did not and does not believe that getting difficult situations investigated and properly resolved is ‘the best for the Company’, and chose instead to temporise for years , possibly lying a bit to the Res12 requisitioners, hoping that the issue would disappear.
I am not proud of the Board: I think they lacked moral conviction and/or courage.
Having said that, I must repeat that to my mind Bankier’s statement came as close to damning the SFA as it could without him opening himself up to legal action by the SFA!…
=========%%%==========
Thanks for the reply !
It only further points to a staggering level of double standards regarding the importance you repeatedly place on the importance of honesty and the invective that is subsequently dished out to liars. It simply isn’t credible to preach so loudly, then when your own lot are “lying a bit“, attempt to mitigate.
How can anyone emotionally or otherwise invested in Res.12 continue to put money into a PLC whose ‘interest’ is the polar opposite and are prepared to patronise and ly to fans/shareholders ?
This isn’t about white lies and fingers crossed behind backs (which I use to illustrate the novel concept of “lying a bit“). According to you John, it’s about a PLC lying to shareholders……. Yet, you seem to reluctantly accept Bankier’s statement because it nearly dams the SFA! ….Bankier must have been reading up on some of Charles Green’s methods to get fans onside.
The PLC have got rid of it, as they always intended to do and the Chairman is simply selling appeasement. It comes in an empty box with the instruction, not to be opened until 2099.
Competition watchdog to probe Rangers and retailers over replica kits
By Henry Saker-Clark, PA City Reporter
1 hour ago
The UK competition watchdog has launched an investigation into Rangers FC and sportswear retailers over the price of replica football kits.
On Wednesday, the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) confirmed it has opened an initial inquiry into potential “anti-competitive behaviour”.
It said it is probing Rangers and Hummel, which manufactures the club’s kit, as well as retailers Greaves Sports and JD Sports.
The investigation process, which is expected to take six months, will look into suspected breaches of competition law, it said.
The regulator said: “At this stage the CMA believes that it has reasonable grounds to suspect one or more breaches of competition law.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/competition-watchdog-to-probe-rangers-and-retailers-over-replica-kits/ar-BB1bY99q?ocid=entnewsntp
Interesting to read that our old DR friend – Keef – has been directed to have a pop at King and his proposed share sale to Club1872.
Even more interesting is the claim that RIFC had previously offered direct, new shares to Club1872 – but the offer was declined.
IF that is true, then it does raise questions about Club1872’s impartiality and the quality of advice given to its paying members.
Does this cross over into FCA regulations territory and the provision of financial / investment advice?
Anyway, don’t think King will be smiling about this latest development.
‘Timtim 15th December 2020 at 19:34
“we need to start moving one or two players a year. It won’t be a big turnover in the squad but that is something we need to do”…’
##############################
This begs the question: who (in the straitened circumstances that most clubs find themselves in) will be in the market with the required multi-millions for TRFC’s transfer magnets?
There are big price-tickets on:
A twenty-nine year-old full back who was a dud in England & has no international experience.
A twenty-eight year-old full back.
A twenty-seven year-old centre back with documented heart problems.
A vanity midfielder relying on his father’s name.
…and then there’s El Huffalo. Scoring rate, discipline & demeanour all count against him.
Then you’ve got:
Two mid-twenties midfielders who aren’t guaranteed a start.
Two twenty-eight year-old midfielders who aren’t guaranteed a start.
Most of the others are relatively worthless due to age. TRFC’s first team squad has players aged 38(x2), 33, 32 & 35.
There’s a song in Lionel Bart’s ‘Oliver’ entitled ‘Who Will Buy?’ Well, who will?
reasonablechap 16th December 2020 at 05:54
'.This isn’t about white lies and fingers crossed behind backs "
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Correct.
It's about my personal disagreement as a shareholder with a decision taken by the Board of Celtic plc on a matter of Board policy ,in respect of whether the Board should pursue a former member club of the SPL and/or the Governance body of Scottish football on suspicion of having defrauded Celtic plc of some millions of pounds.
What you may have to say, RC, as a defender of the former member club [ iniquitous on account of its decade of cheating which was the cause of it becoming a former member club] and as a supporter of the propaganda that TRFC is somehow or other that self-same former cheating club, is irrelevant to that disagreement
My dispute with the Celtic Board is of no concern of yours: you have no locus in that matter (except perhaps to be very glad on behalf of some possibly quite anxious people) that the Celtic Board chose not to have the suspected fraud seriously investigated or referred to the Police.
Whatever my entitled view of how they arrived at that decision, the Celtic Board
did not cheat and lie to Scottish Football
did not cheat hundreds of individual creditors for a decade,
did not rip off the taxpayer to the tune of several tens of millions of pounds,
and does not falsely market itself to potential investors as being the holding company of an eight year old football club miraculously about to celebrate its 150th anniversary, claiming to be the most successful club in the world!
The Celtic board failed to do as I would wish them to have done.
In not doing what I wished, however, they did no harm to anyone else and they broke no law. They have caused me and others some disappointment because they did not share the view that were serious questions to ask about the integrity of the Sport in the matter of the ' 5-Way Agreement' , questions reinforced by the Licence issue, coming into the light at about the same time.
It is conceivable, perhaps, that they might very much share that view, but decided that securing a conviction in Scotland of persons in football accused of crimes related to their functions in football management/governance might be impossible, and that any attempt to do so would be a waste of shareholders' monies amounting to more in total than what they might have gained had Celtic rather than RFC of 1872 been awarded the UEFA licence!
They might also have been reluctant , in a spirit of Marist charity, to see people go to jail!
J.J agreed: and who knows the full impact of covid on transfer fees – and the duration of any depressed transfer market.
I didn't read the full RIFC Annual Report or the full AGM notes, so may have missed it, but;
It makes sense for Robertson to state that a couple of players need selling each year: seems to have worked OK for CFC in recent years.
But, for a cash strapped club in the middle of a pandemic with few, young sellable stars in the squad – you'd think Robertson would be shouting loud about cost cutting…
except TRFC is desperate to stop 10IAR.
TRFC should be focused on short-term cost-cutting measures to counter the immediate Going Concern risks.
To state the bleedin' obvious.
Choosing to focus on winning the SPL title rather than focusing on survival is RIFC's choice to make.
…as our incompetent SFA blazers look on gormlessly… again.
If Robertson had an improved governance body as he claims to want, then the SFA would be asking searching questions of TRFC long before now.
Jingso.Jimsie @ 13:31
I wonder how many of them have release clauses built into their contracts as is the norm these days . I still believe Morelos has one (according to his agent) and it's not that high .The ridiculous valuations placed on him were aimed at appeasing creditors and attempting to attract investment rather than a serious attempt to sell him at those prices. When you buy an asset on credit then once that asset is sold the credit has to be re-paid and as most of their recent acquisitions still have outstanding payments then the amount of profit available will be limited. Gerrard and his backroom team may generate some compensation if he were to leave but again when you see what Rodgers cost and he has a far better CV then it won't be a great amount. I believe coaching badges are a necessity at EPL level which is another hurdle in the way.
redlichtie 16th December 2020 at 10:33
It said it is probing Rangers and Hummel, which manufactures the club’s kit,?
….
I thought that was now castore.
‘Cluster One 16th December 2020 at 19:20
redlichtie 16th December 2020 at 10:33
It said it is probing Rangers and Hummel, which manufactures the club’s kit,?
….
I thought that was now castore.’
##################################
It is.
It looks like someone with the initials MJWA has decided that a couple of organisations played fast & loose with an exclusivity agreement that he (or his companies) held concerning the retailing of previous seasons’ replica kits & has involved the regulatory authorities.
‘You can check out, but you can never leave…’
StevieBC 16th December 2020 at 11:50
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Interesting to read that our old DR friend – Keef – has been directed to have a pop at King and his proposed share sale to Club1872.
Even more interesting is the claim that RIFC had previously offered direct, new shares to Club1872 – but the offer was declined.
……………………………
also thinking forward to potential future issues over the next two or three years. We don’t want to come out of this one thinking we have done a great job and put £1million into Rangers and don’t have money in the pot for the next one. Jan 26, 2018.
…
Maybe they had nothing left in the pot.
……
Bruce Taylor: That is quite important because there will be future share issues and this is not just about raising capital on one occasion. It is about, as Rangers improve and the value of Rangers increases, there will be a need to subscribe more and invest more.
We, as Club 1872, need to be a strong position to support each one of those share campaigns. We want to protect our members’ investments and donations and show our members that we can do that. That is an important part of Club 1872
……………..
Maybe they don’t think the club has improved enough.
………………
This time, we have an opportunity to spend £1million again but the difference being is that it goes directly into the club. We are looking to take Club 1872 from being a fans group to major investors so that when the call comes, and they will do through various share issues, we will be there and be ready to invest and step up in the same way as any of the current investors.
…
Maybe they thought it was not the best time to step in.
………..
What we are talking about at Club 1872 is becoming part of the decision making process at the club.
….
Maybe they did not want to be part of the decision making.
………………
LF: The long-term goal has always been 25 per cent, plus one share. I think that supporters understand that fan representation and fan investment go hand in hand so those are our two key goals.
…
Maybe they moved the goal posts.
………………………..
It is quite frustrating, as Club 1872, to see people say that because this is that vehicle. Particularly over the next couple of years, there is very likely to be another share issue further down the line and when that happens the organisation has to be ready to put the money in. But the fans have to want to do it as well.
…
Maybe they were just not ready to put the money in.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/stewart-robertsons-rangers-fan-group-23172910
Reading between the lines it looks like King and the other board members did not leave on the best of terms , in fact they sound very much like they have been stabbed in the back . As we know our 4th estate ensure that all stories are cleared for publication before they hit the print button so this is as good as an official board room release. King has effectively emptied the piggy bank of club 1872 and given them a controlling hand in the blue room ( if all goes to plan) . Park and Co may have been relying on that income to cover any shortfall that he and Bennet couldn't fund but I doubt very much they would want the fans to have any degree of power in the running of the business and would have kept their shareholding in single percentage figures and out of the board room. As the (potential) largest shareholders that will be impossible.
It may just be coincidence that Robertson has warned of player sales before reminding everyone that they are so well backed financially that they really don't have to sell anyone. Park and Bennet may not be so keen to keep filling up the tank when they no longer have control of the steering wheel especially when the replacement driver only has a provisional licence. Winter transfer market is for approx 4 weeks in January but as already pointed out by jj it is a buyers market and any deals done will be by instalment and may not raise significant amounts of immediate liquidity. The other news today that there may be new issues regarding old retail deals cannot have gone down well. I just wonder if Dave King had a degree of responsibility there as well.
Timtim 16th December 2020 at 19:54
Clearly the King is dead for Keith.
He has changed sides to the one on which his bread is now buttered.
To be fair on the current board, King's move was a bit off, even for him. He is trying to milk the fans for all he can, the board are not happy about that because that was an integral part of their plan.
They are never going to raise the full amount, certainly not quickly, but I believe he has said they can buy his shares in tranches so he could be getting regular payments from them for quite some time.
Homunculus 16th December 2020 at 20:42′
“.To be fair on the current board, King’s move was a bit off, even for him.”
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
In fairness to King (choke, choke!) his prime motivation has ever been to try to get his original (according to him) £20M investment back
I suspect that he daily spits blood with rage when he thinks of SDM escaping virtually blame free in all quarters and with his personal monies scarcely affected, while others like King himself took a hit.
If it was his idea, or if he bought into the idea, of a fans’ organisation in the shape of a ‘Community Interest Company’ to which he could progressively sell his shares in such numbers as would eventually give that ‘Community Interest Company a blocking share of 25% 1 in RIFC plc, it wasn’t a bad idea.
It could be ( and seems to have been) easily sold to fans as both as a mark of his ‘concern’ lest another SDM or a Whyte ended up with a majority shareholding that could impose its will without reference to any or all other shareholders, and as the means by which loyal fans could spike the guns of any cabal that might wish to take TRFC down a road or roads that the fans would not welcome.
There is little doubt in my mind that King doesn’t give a monkey’s toss about anyone but himself, but glibly and shamelessly uses his undoubted Machiavellian skills to serve his own ends, first, last and all the time while deploying all the canting vocabulary of ‘loyalty’ and ‘participation’ and ‘commitment’ as has been used by generations of snake-oil salesmen.
Perhaps the other major investors might begin to worry about the ‘fans on the board’ possibility and what that might mean for them personally as shareholders as opposed to ‘fans’, and decide to get the hell out of a wholly phoney set-up that instead of making them profits, keeps demanding that they spend the money they have made from their own honest businesses.
King might have started a trend!
Well, and well away from football entirely, can I say that the governance body of the sport of Badminton doesn’t mess about when it comes to sports cheating.
I cite this from an email in my inbox, which has a CAS Media Release
“BADMINTON – ANTI-DOPING THE COURT OF ARBITRATION FOR SPORT (CAS) IMPOSES A TWO-YEAR PERIOD OF INELIGIBILITY ON KATE JESSICA FOO KUNE
“On the basis of the evidence put forward by the parties and by an independent expert, the CAS Panel found the athlete’s assertion of intentional spiking during the 2019 African Badminton World Championships devoid of supporting evidence thereby falling short of a cogent explanation as to how the prohibited substance entered her body.
Having failed to meet the requisite burden of proof, the Panel rejected Ms. Foo Kune’s theory of sabotage and imposed a two-year period of ineligibility. The results obtained by Kate Jessica Foo Kune during the 2019 African Badminton World Championships remain disqualified.”
Interesting that the ‘burden of proof ‘ is on the accused!
Very ‘Napoleonic Code’ sounding, and that I have to say kind of jars with me.
Even in the criminal proceedings against people involved in our ‘saga’ there was no expectation that it was for the accused to prove their innocence under the law ,as opposed to the requirement being on the Prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt their guilt!
Whatever my views and opinions and gut feeling, I still would require that charges of breach of rules or legislation be proved by those making the charges.
It is, however, not acceptable that any Sports Governance body should not investigate serious charges in order to establish whether there may be a case to answer!
Timtim 16th December 2020 at 19:54
“..It may just be coincidence that Robertson has warned of player sales before reminding everyone that they are so well backed financially that they really don’t have to sell..’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
An almost Ratner-like statement!
Honest to God: as directors of a PLC they are all over the place when it comes to thinking about consistency in their pubic pronouncements ! Have they no one to tell them how not to contradict themselves?
Have they no notion that, as a PLC, their AGM deliberations are being viewed not just by loyal fans but by guys even more savvy and devious and resourceful in business than they?
Perhaps their man Gibson ( Paisley man?) might already be aiming to increase his shareholding to go for a cheap buy-out? and, ultimately, a transformation of ibrox into a superbly placed transport logistics centre! That’s his main business, after all!
{we can all be DR/BBC types when it comes to stirring!)
Just noticed tonight’s kit was a bit different than usual, now the Castore badges may have fallen off but that collar is certainly a different design from what I have seen so far this season . Could the retail issues mentioned earlier be having a larger impact than first thought? Are these kits even registered? No 5 stars either or sponsors.
John Clark 17th December 2020 at 00:18
"Whatever my views and opinions and gut feeling, I still would require that charges of breach of rules or legislation be proved by those making the charges."
John, I think this is a very interesting case. As you say, it jars a little when the burden of proof is placed on the accused rather than the accusers. However, the way I read this was that there was prima facie evidence of an illegal substance in her body. She has given an explanation as to how it came to be there. I think in these circumstances, it is right that she come up with the evidence for that excuse.
There is a parallel in Scots law if I'm not mistaken. For example if I were stopped in the street by the polis, searched and they found a big knife on me, their testimony and production of the knife, is the prima facie evidence that I was carrying an offensive weapon in a public place. The law as I understand it allows in certain circumstances for someone to be carrying an offensive weapon in public; if it's for a lawful purpose, e.g a police officer's baton or for ceremonial purposes, e.g. a skein dubh (although only dressed in appropriate highland rig) or where there is a reasonable excuse. If my claim is that I had a reasonable excuse for having the knife on me, the burden of proof, in law, passes to me. I might explain that I am a butcher and I'm taking the knife home to have it sharpened. I would then have to gather evidence to prove I was telling the truth. That evidence would be considered by the Fiscal when considering whether to take proceedings against me although ultimately, it would be for the court to decide whether my excuse was "reasonable."
https://shop.rangers.co.uk/collections/retro-kit
It appears it is the latest retro kit , not sure if it is officially registered but lack of sponsors logo seems strange.
Nice to see The 2angers squad continuing to self-isolate…………..from silverware.
A lot of excitement for the fans of the remaining 4 teams who I'm sure will all believe they have a chance of winning.
As this is the Scottish Football Monitor,
well done to the Buddies for their epic, totally unexpected Cup win last night.
Likewise, it's good for the game that Ross County also progressed in the cup with their own big win.
At least one piece of silverware will be leaving Glasgow this season – which is no bad thing at all, IMO.
latest update on the shareholding and who lent what
Mordecai 17th December 2020 at 06:29
'…However, the way I read this was that there was prima facie evidence of an illegal substance in her body. She has given an explanation as to how it came to be there."
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Thank you for that, Mordecai.
I take the (knife)point you make by your analogy with the offence of carrying an offensive weapon!
Timtim 17th December 2020 at 11:59
—————–v——————————
Could you provide a link to the source of that so that it can be more easily read? Ta.
https://twitter.com/JBLuvsCeltic/status/1339354498343432193
sorry about the quality bordersdon ,I'm struggling to read it as well
So Club (IQ) 18-72 have less than 5% of the shareholding. Does anyone know how many blue pounds they have spent to get there? You have to pity them……like those Russian dancing bears…
How to make a small fortune out of being Chairman of a business that operates a football club:
Start with a large fortune & watch it be nibbled away by WATP-induced vanity & hubris.
######################
If Club1872 paid twenty pence for each of their 16,202,838 shares, that’s a minimum of £3,240,567.60.
I don’t think that all their holdings were bought at that price-point though, with some tranches being more costly.
Update on our migration process. We've decided to provide a forum for fans of all clubs as sub-forums on the new site.
Of course, volunteers for moderation would be good 🙂
Won't be a lot at first (I'll set up the top division clubs and add any by request), but hopefully the seed will grow.
There is an increasing spotlight in off the filed matters. Governance of the game, the continuing shenanigans at Ibrox, and of course the ever-growing disconnect with fans at Parkhead and elsewhere.
Also, the Covid crisis has set up new challenges for clubs who are already in flux. Often that kind of stuff becomes club-specific, and hopefully the new design will accommodate that.
Still on course for early January. Any suggestions/offers of assistance are welcome.
StevieBC
I believe the recent Ross County result was due to 'quintuple' being a very inelegant use of language
Jingso.Jimsie 17th December 2020 at 14:23
If Club1872 paid twenty pence for each of their 16,202,838 shares, that’s a minimum of £3,240,567.60.
I don’t think that all their holdings were bought at that price-point though, with some tranches being more costly.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Were they not one of the mugs who bought Ashleys holding at 28p?. I also thought they had thrown other money into the pot not used to buy shares, or was this a loan, later converted to confetti, rather than a donation?
If only 30,000 of them had chipped in £200 each, they could have outbid Ol Big Hands Charlie, for the whole shebang. Although to be fair, being the highest bidder might not have carried any weight in the "twilight zone" bidding/sale/purchase process.
Two former administrators of #Rangers have now settled their case against the Crown after admission their arrests in fraud trial were ‘malicious’. It follows another settlement against Police Scotland. It will cost taxpayer many millions of pounds. Others still to settle.
Dec 17, 2020
The ibrox debacle has cost the public millions upon millions and the ibrox club still have no shame about the cost and damage they left in their wake.
John Clark 16th December 2020 at 23:01
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Homunculus 16th December 2020 at 20:42′
“.To be fair on the current board, King’s move was a bit off, even for him.”
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
In fairness to King (choke, choke!) his prime motivation has ever been to try to get his original (according to him) £20M investment back
……………….
And he has vowed to sue Sir David’s Murray Group firm to claw back the
£20million he put into the club in 2001 under the steel tycoon’s watch,
claiming Sir David duped him over Rangers’ financial situation.
King, 55, said: “I have made a claim of £20million on the basis of
non-disclosure by the then chairman, David Murray, of Rangers’ true
financial position as far back as 2000.
“Other shareholders may feel deceived like I do and wish to take similar
action.”
He added that if he wins his action against Sir David he will plough the cash
back into a newly-formed Rangers.
King said: “I want to advise the fans and fellow shareholders that any benefit
I receive from my claim will be fully reinvested into the restructured
football club.
“I am 100 per cent committed to Rangers and will do whatever I can to advance
their interests.”
King was equally bitter over Whyte’s handling of the club.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/433236/king-murray-and-whyte-are-guilty-of-killing-rangers/
…………………………
Can’t be long now until king ploughs the cash
back into a newly-formed Rangers.
Big Pink 17th December 2020 at 14:34
Update on our migration process. We've decided to provide a forum for fans of all clubs as sub-forums on the new site.
————————-
Sounds good. Looking forward to engaging on the site again.
ClusterOne@18.09 yesterday
The late Ian Archer’s description of Rangers being a permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace springs to mind here.
I’ve not commented much lately but the current moves to sell DK’s shares aptly demonstrates that cash is King and King is all about the cash.
I suppose that is the opportunity to flog a bucket-load of unbranded, untitled, nae makers mark jerseys for the final scuppered.
Corrupt official 18th December 2020 at 10:29
—————————————————————
The strips are made by Castore and their logo is on the jersey but it’s also blue so that makes it difficult to see. So it is an official product and it’s available on the club website.
I think it looks quite smart but at an eye watering £68 seems expensive. Don’t know what the cost of a football top is these days. Looks like it’s sold out in most sizes so has been pretty popular.
https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/images/shares/pdfs/067_324__rulesofthespflasat19_january_2018_1518083042.pdf
page 65 covers the relevant rules re kit but as is usual with the rules it leaves room for interpretation and a get out of jail free card with the "unless approved by the board" . It specifies colour of kit so a blue top may be a blue top regardless of the colour of the collar . A couple of years ago they did turn up and play a European away game in a red training top and got away with it so I doubt very much that anything will come of this. The lack of sponsors logo may be a different matter , having paid for advertising for it not to appear may constitute a breach of contract but that will be a matter between the parties concerned. Showcasing the new retro top to boost sales just before Christmas may have been their priority.
I read somewhere that TRFC said that the intention was always to wear the unadorned, vintage-style top in the two domestic cup competitions this season. Their (several) shirt-sponsors were apparently quite happy with this.
It wasn't worn against Falkirk because of a colour-clash. The white strip that was worn for that match featured the usual sponsors's names.
Odd, isn't it?
Short reply Incredible as on phone, but happy to be put right.
Corrupt official 18th December 2020 at 12:43
——————————————————————-
There was an announcement months ago about the retro style strip, complete with the obligatory trolling about history, and the sponsors were on board with the idea.
Doesn’t appear to be anything going on here and as another poster said it was probably just an opportunity to showcase the top to grab some extra Xmas sales. That could have went better.
A similar scenario might be when a team wears next seasons strip in the Scottish cup final. This top won’t be making an appearance in the league cup final but you know what I mean.
StevieBC 17th December 2020 at 10:09
As this is the Scottish Football Monitor,
well done to the Buddies for their epic, totally unexpected Cup win last night.
Likewise, it’s good for the game that Ross County also progressed in the cup with their own big win.
At least one piece of silverware will be leaving Glasgow this season – which is no bad thing at all, IMO.
………………………………………………………………….
Thank you for the totally unexpected reference on here about there being TWO teams playing in that match!
However, as Saints had been on an undefeated run of 9 (now 10) matches – among Buddies there was a big expectation of getting such a positive result.
This has looked like an impressive group of players for a while, talented and hard-working. J Goodwin has at last got them playing as a cohesive team. As the response the late equaliser showed.
It has to be said that Lady Luck played her part when Dallas got ill and the opposition had to play with a man short.
Barring any more arbitrary docking of points by the impotents in charge of Scottish fitba, we believe it may be an amazing year of not contesting relegation yet again.
It IS positive that the silverware will not be staying Glasgow. The Bookies seem sure it on’t be going to Paisley as Saints are 10/1 for the cup, whereas Livvy are 9/4.
Scottish clubs face ‘radical change’ as Brexit changes signing rules for EU players – BBC Sport
————————————————v———————————————————–
Could be a major change! Heading for some kind of points based system although the SFA/SPFL are apparently trying to make the rules different in Scotland. I would imagine Celtic and Rangers* would be looking for a lower threshold than applies to the EPL so that they can continue with the buy low and sell on strategy? My initial thoughts (assuming the rules are GB wide) are:
Interested to hear views.
incredibleadamspark 18th December 2020 at 11:00
'..The strips are made by Castore..'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Not being a businessman of any kind, I'm still unclear about the actual manufacturing of the Castore brand products.
There appears to be no manufacturing company named 'Castore Ltd' ( even though the wikipedia entry for 'Castore' (that shows the logo) refers to 'Castore manufacturers'
The two boys who created and own the brand are the directors of the 'J Carter Sporting Club Ltd ', which has 33 shareholders in all, a number of them Venture Capitalists.
But that company has only 15 employees!
Would that number of employees be able to manufacture the volumes of items of kit that would be expected to generate deals worth £25M or more with football and other sports clubs?
If not, can we find out which companies are actually franchised to manufacture the gear?
I'm genuinely intrigued , with no reference to the fact that TRFC has a deal with 'Castore'
https://www.sportsdirect.com/searchresults?descriptionfilter=All%20Rangers%20Castore%20Tops
Cup tops the lot
John Clark 18th December 2020 at 18:41
If I remember correctly there was a whole load of discussion wih regards the quality of some of the items and it turned out some was made in China, some was made in India and I think some was made in Europe, I have no idea which manufacturer actually made the stuff but I suspect it was just factories who were able to produce what was required so long as they were given the materials and the patterns.
I don't think that's too unusual but I have no experience in the field.
bordersdon 18th December 2020 at 16:46
'..(assuming the rules are GB wide)..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
As far as I know, bordersdon, the Home Office rules are UK-wide.
Wales , Scotland and Nor'n Ireland , although having internationally recognised distinct and separate Football governance bodies appear not to have any power under the devolution settlements (or the equivalent) to derogate from them.
That builds in a kind of discrimination in favour of the wealthy end of English football, I would imagine, since the assumption must be that players qualifying for the 15 points would likely be pricier than even the richest clubs in the three devolved administrations could afford .
One does not have be politically Nationalist to imagine that some wee English Nats in the Home Office might be at the madam.
Hope Jeane Freeman MS backs anything that the SFA has to say
bordersdon 18th December 2020 at 16:46
“Might” help narrow the financial gap between the 2 and the rest (if the business model is more difficult to succeed)? and so “might” make the league more competitive.
………………..
Would buy the best talent from the clubs in the same league.
Homunculus 18th December 2020 at 21:26
'..there was a whole load of discussion wih regards the quality of some of the items and it turned out some was made in China, some was made in India and I think some was made in Europe..'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Gosh, I remember that now; and wondering how Castore could , without pretty immediate access to the production lines) guarantee the much-vaunted innovative quality of their stuff (as described on their 'about us' ) page on the web.
It seems strange to claim to be 'manufacturers' if all you've done is let someone make things to your design!
I'm prompted to ask whether SDI , JD and the many other big and not so big names in sportswear actually all use the same manufacturers?
There's a whole world of commerce and business that I'm beginning ,in my closing years, to wish that I had known something about!
Mind you, ever since I discovered that my life assurance 'adviser' got the first two years worth of premiums on the policies he sold me, I've been distrustful of 'business' and those involved.
No! I tell a lie: my distrust goes back to the 1960s when I was turned down for a job with AG Barr, then of Parkhead Cross!
Just the other week, as it happens, I looked up 'Scotlandspeople' to see if the then arrogant sod who 'interviewed' me at that time had died over the years since! He was maybe 10 or 12 years older than I, so he probably has.
No harm to him, but maybe he now knows what a great man he missed, God rest him!
https://www.whitehillwelfare.co.uk/news/club-statement-2591249.html
Club Statement
By James Stout
2 hours ago
Share via
FacebookTwitter
https://www.whitehillwelfare.c
Scottish FA Disciplinary Tribunal
Following our Scottish Cup 2nd Preliminary Round tie with Hill of Beath Hawthorn on Saturday 12 December, The Club was made aware that one of the opposition players was potentially ineligible and should have been serving a suspension. The Club raised this matter with the Scottish FA on Monday morning and asked them to investigate.
The Club received an email late this afternoon from The Scottish FA to inform us that a Disciplinary Tribunal met this afternoon and has censured Hill of Beath Hawthorn and issued a £2,000 fine, which is suspended until the end of the 2020/21 season.
The Club finds this outcome baffling and inconsistent with The Scottish FA’s own rules for the competition and previous sanctions where a club has been found to have fielded an ineligible player.
As far as The Club can ascertain, regardless of circumstances, the Judicial Panel Protocol is clear that there is a mandatory ejection from The Scottish Cup for fielding an ineligible player (Rule 303, associated with Scottish Cup Rule 12).
To further compound our sense of injustice, the tribunal has reinstated the players suspension, resulting in the player missing the next round of The Scottish Cup.
Our supporters can be rest assured that The Club are raising this matter directly with The Scottish FA as a matter of urgency and will provide an update as and when they see fit to respond. The Club has however, been told that we have no right of appeal.
………………….
I’m sure there is a sandy Bryson rule somewhere
bigboab1916 18th December 2020 at 19:34
'..Cup tops the lot..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Cleverly ambiguous wording of the description matches the misleading words of the IPO prospectus!
"This Castore Rangers Cup Goalkeeper Shirt 2020 2021"
One would be led to believe that this shirt was the shirt-type worn by the goalie of the winners of a cup in season 2020-21, which will not now be the case
Was a shirt of that design worn at all by whoever was in goal for TRFC in the Bet-Fred cup competition out of which they were knocked by St Mirren?
Now, I don't blame TRFC or whomever for making ordinary advance commercial preparations, but to go online as if it were a foregone conclusion that a cup would be won?
Or is that Ashley taking the piss?
Cluster One 18th December 2020 at 22:46
“..I’m sure there is a sandy Bryson rule somewhere.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
The Bryson ‘Alice-in-Wonderland’ nonsensical interpretation was as eagerly welcomed at the LNS tribunal as the nonsense that TRFC (aged 8) is Rangers of 1872 was ,by the 5-Way Agreement liars.
I suspect, though, that Whitehill Welfare are not as important enough in the eyes of men of no integrity and truth as were SDM’s Rangers.
Those men have a lot to answer for.
[ I may have mentioned , long time ago, that one of my sons claimed a degree of ‘fame’ for having played against the Whitehill Welfare team player who had played against Pierre van Hooijonk when Whitehill played Celtic not long before]
ReasonableChap
John Clark.
Res12 was ended by agreement with The Board on the condition that they take take over the task of challenging the SFA in respect of the abandonment of the Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal investigating breaches of UEFA FPP in 2011.
That is why Celtic said Res12 was unecessary because all the evidence that would have been gathered had Res12 been passed in 2013, has been. (and sits with the UEFA integrity Unit since May and July 2020 focussing not so much on Rangers but the SFA. The media havent picked up on that but it's a fact .
That evidence not only demonstrates the UEFA licence was granted under false pretence but in the delving more evidence of Celtic lying to shareholders has been gathered too, on a large scale re LNS.
You have pointed out Mr Chap the consequences of Celtic not acting as promise at an AGM in writing (that was insisted upon) which is that unless they do, they will be asking supporters, and not just Celtic ones, to pay for a game where the rules that make it a sport no longer apply, to the benefit of the club who from 2000 have been in breach of the rule that requires them to act in good faith to fellow member clubs.
The charge that LNS should have been asked to rule on not registration of players, which was premature, especially if SFA already had the evidence in shape of HMRC correspondence that the good faith rule had been broken, and there is reason to believe they had, especially with Campbell Ogilvie working in the SFA since 2005.
That no timeframe was stated in the Board's response was immediately picked up and Celtic were asked to set one and at AGM refused, and went off script from the actual AGM notice.
In doing so in the AGM notice they have said we will deal with the abandonment of the judicial process thus Res12 is not necessary, but in not dealing with it timeosly they have created a moral dilemma as in how can they ask supporters to renew STs for a game they have admitted has questions over its integrity? Snooker.
Any Celtic supporter would be entitled to ask before renewing can you assure me the rules that provide a discipline to the game will be applied or will they be subject to commercial considerations as happened under the 5 Way Agreement.
Celtic supporters should not have to ask that question. The assurances should be given by say end March 2021 by Celtic.
The Board may double down on renewing being automatic, but not if the evidence accumulated pointing to when they could have acted effectively becomes known.
That is the transparency bit, accountability comes next if the Celtic support at large decide they want it, which is where CST come in.
There is also a question if shareholders rights were being observed during the Res12 saga and if Directors responsibilities were adhered to.
Both take the matter away from the Res12 folk and over to the Celtic support at large in 'not will John Clark stand for it' but will Celtic supporters stand for being lied to by Celtic since 2013 to protect Rangers (for commercial reasons or as Celtic put it, in The Company's interests)
The Celtic Supporters Trust are growing in numbers, which will grow even further if they pick up the baton Res12 passed on and if the Celtic support want them too.
The supporters of every senior club in Scotland should take an interest as they too are being asked to pay for a game where there is no question that the current model they pay to watch is corrupt by its very nature.
Had it not been so, Rangers would never have died, so Rangers fans have a vested interest too in getting answers then solutions.
Then we can get all move on to watching our game with the toxicity removed, integrity and trust restored.
Something I think most supporters and SFSA members would welcome. 😉
Why this again ?
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18956810.multi-storey-flats-built-rangers-car-park/
John Clark 18th December at 18:41
———————————————————
I think the correct term would possibly be “supplied” rather than “made” if that’s not indulging in semantics too much. I don’t think there is any great mystery here. Most things are outsourced in a global capitalist economy. The component parts of your phone, PC, tablet, TV, car, clothes, trainers…. are manufactured all over the world and not necessarily by whatever company puts its name to the finished product.
Apropos of nothing in particular Castore supply kit to the West Indies cricket team, have a deal with the England rugby union captain, McLaren F1 team and will possibly supply Wolves with their kit next season. Not to mention their association with Andy Murray.
Schadenfreude!
I note that Andrew Bailey ( to whom I wrote about the FCA's potential breach of statute when it authorised the seemingly misleading Prospectus issued by RIFC plc in connection with that company's IPO) is in a pickle of bother:
from the report in the 'Daily Mail online' earlier today I extract this:
"What we now know from scrutiny of the small print is that in his dealings with the author Dame Elizabeth Gloster, a former Court of Appeal judge, Bailey sought to have his name and those of fellow senior executives anonymised.
His demand may have been to protect colleagues. But it cannot fail to leave behind the stench of an attempted cover-up.
Needless to say, Dame Elizabeth ignored his pleas. What makes his position potentially precarious is the current FCA probe into the collapse of Woodford's empire which has led to heavy losses for 300,000 savers as well as the pension fund of Kent County Council"
and
"..This week's report, led by former Court of Appeal Judge Dame Elizabeth Gloster, held Mr Bailey personally responsible for failings at the FCA"
this will get you to the internet links for the full article
Andrew Bailey bid to calm saving scandal storm may cause MORE trouble
It was while Bailey was in charge of the FCA that my complaint that the FCA may have been in breach of its statutory duty when it authorised what I believe was the misleading Prospectus issued by RIFC plc in connection with its IPO in 2012.
That complaint, as I posted on here, was in effect ignored and then , whether deliberately or not, was treated as if I had merely been making a complaint against a company (RIFC plc) and not against the FCA itself as possibly having been guilty of illegality.
[I think we in Scottish Football have had a whiff ourselves of the stench of untruth rising from from the breath of our football governance bodies and certain clubs.
And, by the Lord Harry, if organisations like the FCA can be suspect- and found out- there's no way little titchy Sports governance bodies will avoid ultimate truth, when proper investigation begins, as it will sooner or later.
[And whatever else, Bailey ran a slipshod department that lost correspondence and took weeks to reply to reminders.
Never would have happened in my department!]
'paddy malarkey 19th December 2020 at 11:44
Why this again ?
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18956810.multi-storey-flats-built-rangers-car-park/'
##############################
The development doesn't appear to have been discussed at the last GCC Planning Committee in early December.
It's likely that someone connected with the proposal (builder, architect etc.) has issued a 'year-end' press release detailing current & future intentions & someone at the Evening (not Glasgow!) Times has published it due to the TRFC association.
Remember, in modern media, clicks are king!
Very entertaining cup final today.
Penalties a bit of a lottery, as usual, as both teams could claim they were worthy of the win.
wottpi 20th December 2020 at 20:19
Nice tribute at Half time
Jingso.Jimsie 20th December 2020 at 11:41
Read somewhere that it rears its head again because of a proposal to reduce the parking for the Club Deck from 900 to 450 ,with the club finding alternative spaces elsewhere in the area . Don't know how solid that is .
Can someone tell me why Craig Gordon ( partly supported by ‘Gnaff’ McCann ) is bleating about wrt to the Edouard’s sublime penalty?
He was simply outwitted, embarrassed, and deservedly booked for kicking the ball at Edouard.
Severely bruised ego methinks.
What should we do Craig? Ban flashes of sheer skill and ‘Panenka – like’ penalties to prevent opponents being ‘shown up’
Go ‘grow a pair’ son!
cmon now bect67 he threw the ball this type of reporting will get you a job at the day late record
Fair point, well made Tony!
I had meant to add to my post that I fear this WOKE culture (!) will be the undoing of those such as me!!
I’ll check my TDs!
‘paddy malarkey 21st December 2020 at 10:37
Jingso.Jimsie 20th December 2020 at 11:41
Read somewhere that it rears its head again because of a proposal to reduce the parking for the Club Deck from 900 to 450 ,with the club finding alternative spaces elsewhere in the area . Don’t know how solid that is .’
##########################
From memory (and happy to be corrected if wrong), the Safety Case for the operation of the Club Deck is dependant on the car park area being available (even when full of cars!) for evacuation routes in the event of an emergency.
There seems to have been no move from the builders, Merchant Homes, since submitting details of a ‘proposed’ development, dated 19.03.20, to seeking actual planning permission for the works. In fact, the last update I can find is that Merchant Homes intended to hold a video Public Consultation on 29.05.20.
However, further investigation via the GCC Planning Portal shows that TRFC are intending to make changes to car parking arrangements by revising their original 1989 planning permissions. If you’re interested, the relevant reference is 20/03297/MPO. This seems to have been posted on 08.12.20, hence the article in the ET.
The subject of ‘goodwill’ featured in some recent posts ( in relation to ‘negative goodwill’).
I read in today’s ‘The Scotsman’ an article entitled “When goodwill is just not goodwill” by Catherine Feechan, a corporate partner at Davidson Chalmers Stewart LLP. [I feel I need to say that in case I might be done for copyright infringement!]
The case she comments on [an (English)Appeal Court judgment] was not to do with a company merely buying[as CG did] some of the assets of a company ‘In Administration’ (which subsequently went into Liquidation) but with the more usual ,ordinary ,straightforward purchase of one company by another.
I cannot in truth say that the judgment may have any bearing on anything to do with the Sale and Purchase Agreement under which Big Hands won a watch , buying the assets of Rangers FC (IA) for what seemed to many people, a knockdown price.
But I looked up the judgment anyway ( in furtherance of my own education)
“24 September 2020 |Court of Appeal/Civil
Neutral Citation Number: [2020] EWCA Civ 1228
Case No: A1/2019/2769”
And apparently, there are TWO different interpretations of the meaning of ‘goodwill’
The first party argued that the ordinary commercial meaning was ‘the good name, business, reputation and connections of a business’
The other party argued that the proper meaning was the accounting definition of ‘goodwill’- ‘a loss of share value where that value represents the difference between the cost of acquisition and the fair value of its identifiable net assets and/or where that loss of share value is caused by the impairment of the value of non-identifiable assets’
The Appeal Court went with the first party.
I have no idea of how to relate that judgment to the price that CG paid for the assets of the doomed( doomed by the administrators by their …by their.. by their ..what? .Ach, but what else other than by their failure, in spite of every professional effort as Court-appointed Administrators, to find a buyer to bring RFC plc out of Administration and therefore save it from the footballing death of Liquidation.]What else?
Murray ran up the debt, Whyte added to the debt and two-fingered HMRC, and the Administrators failed in somewhat interesting circumstances to get what many people thought was a decent price for the creditors from the sale of the assets.
I have often wished that I were capable of being an Ian Rankin!
Such fabulous stories might have been written!
Nice to see the thumbs back on the site.
18 thumbs down for a fairly innocuous post re the cup final and 1 person responding negatively to Cluster One's post re the BBC's half time tribute to a 36 year old footballer being struck down by MND!!
I know people say the thumbs are not the be all and end all of the site, but come on guys, really?
‘wottpi 22nd December 2020 at 10:52
Nice to see the thumbs back on the site.
18 thumbs down for a fairly innocuous post re the cup final…’
#######################
I don’t use the TD/TU facility, but it’s possible that many/all of the 18 thumbsdooners simply disagree with ‘wottpi’ that it was ‘very entertaining’.
It was a terrible advert for Scottish football: a poor game which lacked any consistency of quality play from either team, poorly refereed. The BBC commentary was cringeworthy & amateurish.
Relief for some .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55410203
Jingso.Jimsie 22nd December 2020 at 11:28
…
It was a terrible advert for Scottish football: a poor game which lacked any consistency of quality play from either team, poorly refereed…
===========
I suppose 'beauty lies in the eye of the beholder', but I thought it was a great advert for Scottish football – especially for the neutrals.
Totally agree that technically, the footy on show wasn't the best – and neither was the match officiating.
But: 6 goals, a bit of argy bargy, controversial refereeing, individual mistakes, suspect goalkeeping – plus the drama of a penalty shoot out to make history, or not.
Too many times I have watched the technically gifted EPL 'big games' where the footy on offer was high quality… but boring as hell.
At least the Scottish Cup Final wasn't a typical, dour and overly defensive 1-0 game?
wottpi
I am a bit bemused by the number of TD you received wrt to your latest post, but I’m sure that, over your time on here, your thumbs up outscore your thumbs down – so take comfort in that!!
As for the game, I’m with you and StevieBC – as a Celtic fan, I was, in all honesty, seriously ‘nervewracked’ in the second half having, rather complacently and smugly, enjoyed a cup of tea at half time.( Hearts could have scored with a header from their final free kick into the box).
Most neutral (?) watchers would certainly have enjoyed the match – especially Hearts spirited comeback.
I also had nothing but praise for Robbie Neilson’s post match comments, in which he displayed great maturity and humility amongst the disappointment of losing – unlike serial detractors like Neil ‘ah wiz a useless manager masel’ McCann, whose main contribution was to criticise ‘Panenka’ Edouard .
StevieBC 22nd December 2020 at 12:26
bect67 22nd December 2020 at 12:50
Agree, if people aren't happy with six goals in a cup final encounter that went to extra time and a nerve wracking penalty shoot out then what is it that floats their boat?
Thinking back, by the end of it I had forgotten there was no crowd in Hampden and was wholly absorbed unlike some games I've watched in these strange times.
OK so the quality was questionable and the result didn't go the way of my team but for me this is what sport should be about. If Celtic had taken it to 3-0 in the second half and strolled to the end of the game, no-one would have even remembered the game next week, let alone years to come.
Quadruple trebles, Hamilton winning F1 at a canter, etc are to be admired and respected but I'd say it isn't always 'entertaining'.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55410203
Like some others on here I thought the BBC commentary on Sunday's Cup Final was abysmal. The commentator's main aim seemed to be how much data he could present. When play was flowing he continually ignored it to give us facts about past games and player's statistics. He must have a good "Football Facts at Your Fingertips" book and constantly referred to it to show off his knowledge.
He and his co commentator had little conversations among themselves like 2 supporters at a match.
I, as a Celtic supporter, don't accuse them of bias, just of incompetent and boring commentary. I believe most watchers want the commentator to tell us the name of the player on the ball, especially of the opposition of whom we are not familiar, and give their opinion of controversial decisions. This fact based and conversational commentary is so boring, in my opinion of course. It is in fact creeping in with many commentators. Oh for the late great Rugby man, Bill McLaren who knew how to commentate on a game with no bias whatsoever even when his beloved Scotland was playing.
Extract from the BBC:
shirley, Blatter wasn't planning on a return to football next year…?!
====
"Fifa has lodged a criminal complaint against former president Sepp Blatter over the finances of a museum in Zurich, Switzerland.
The complaint relates to the involvement of Blatter and other former officials in the Fifa museum project.
It is the latest allegation of financial impropriety against Blatter, who resigned from his post as president in 2015 amid a corruption scandal.
The 84-year-old has always denied any wrongdoing.
…
Blatter is currently serving a six-year ban from all forms of football."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55410695
====
StevieBC 22nd December 2020 at 22:06
Coming back as The Sepp .
SPFL toast new sponsor as Glen’s Vodka backs Scottish football until 2023
SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster hailed the partnership, saying:“It is fantastic to be able to welcome Glen’s Vodka and Loch Lomond Group as an Official SPFL Partner.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/spfl-toast-new-sponsor-vodka-23205111
………..
If it is not Drink it is gambling firms, i thought they were trying to steer away from this kind of thing.
StevieBC 22nd December 2020 at 22:06
‘..”Fifa has lodged a criminal complaint against former president Sepp Blatter ..’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
By the purest coincidence, StevieBC, I have just this minute stopped searching on the internet for an answer to the question: “in Scotland, are prosecutions for fraud time-barred?’
As far as I can make out, the answer seems to be that, as fraud is common law offence, they are not.
So, for example, if investigation today found that there were enough grounds for believing that a number of years ago a football governance body had been party to a deceit that, say, enabled a football club in financial distress within its jurisdiction to obtain , say, a few million quid to which it was not ,under the rules, entitled, from a higher level of football governance body, there would be no bar on prosecution of those involved in the deceit, no matter that eight years had elapsed.
I for some reason was cheered by that.
As regards Blatter, he is of course innocent of any crime unless and until the prosecution proves his guilt.
As of course would be any individual or governance body or football club if any criminal charges were brought against them.
[Incidentally, I recently watched on netflix? bbc umpteen? sky this or that ?or some of the bloody myriad of tV options that there are now, a version of ‘An Inspector Calls’.
What fun, changing the domestic, family members scene to a scene set in a Board-room ,with the Inspector showing various directors not a photograph but a copy of an email!]
I assert my rights, btw, to that theme as the germ of a theatrical drama! There could be millions in it!
I've just noticed that if I give a thumbs up to a post that already has a goodly number of thumbs up, it doesn't add mine, but reduces the number already there to zero! (Ballyargus 22nd December 2020 at 17:39 is an example, even as I write!)
I hope that the little glitch is resolved.
Cluster One 22nd December 2020 at 23:01
SPFL toast new sponsor as Glen’s Vodka backs Scottish football until 2023 SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster hailed the partnership…
========
I see there is some mild criticism reported in the SMSM, but Doncaster, IMO, is confirming he is tone deaf with his comments.
The game has been screaming out for Gov't. – i.e. taxpayers' – financial support due to covid, yet it continues to simply blank the opinions of its customer base / taxpayers.
I'd guess the majority (?) of fans are uncomfortable with the national team – and our clubs – being strongly associated with booze, gambling, fast food, junk food, etc.
John Clark 22nd December 2020 at 23:40
I have the same problem when I try to use thumbs up/down. The numbers reset to zero. As Wottpi mentioned the number of thumbs down he got I reduced his to zero.:-)
John Clark 21st December 2020 at 23:22
I think the point is that the business has to record the difference between the purchase price of the assets, and their value, in the next set of accounts.
So what they are basically saying (normally) is that we bought that bakery business (for example) for £100 pounds, buy the tangible assets, the ovens etc, are only worth £80 so we paid other £20 for the existing customer base, the reputation etc, and that is just referred to in it's totality as the "goodwill".
As with lot of accountancy stuff it all just looks like smoke and mirror to lay people like me.
In Rangers case the tangible assets were, in their opinion worth a whole lot more than what they paid, but they still have to record that figure and like I have been saying, that is the dead giveaway and admission that they underpaid.
I suspect it will be part of BDO's case against the administrator.
As ever this is very much my layman's understanding with apologies to those who actually understand these things.
David Murray refused to sell for £33mill in 2010,Imran replied that he believed on a bad day the club was worth £50 million. july 2012and charles Green was telling everyone in Nov 2012 it was worth £80mill. Will be interesting when BDO have their day in court how the administrators came up with a figure of £5.5mill
Homunculus 23rd December 2020 at 17:40
‘…I suspect it will be part of BDO’s case against the administrator.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
With a nod to Cluster one whose post I saw just after writing this
I suspect it will!
The staggering difference in the various ‘valuations’ mentioned in the first (13 month year) annual report is difficult to accept as anything other than a piece of nonsense, and I would imagine that any member of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors would agree with me!
In looking at that report, incidentally, I think I saw the answer to the ‘novation’ question:
At Note 23 to the accounts there is this:
” On 14 June 2012 Sevco 5088 Limited entered into agreements for no consideration to legally reassign its beneficial interest in funding placing letters held and to novate the trade and assets purchase agreement with RFC 2012 plc (in administration) to SevcoScotland (now The Rangers Football Club Ltd)”
At that time, according to the report, Charles Green was the sole shareholder of Sevco 5088! ( I can’t find on the Companies House pages any reference to Green being a shareholder, but he’s mentioned as being a director-not quite the same thing)
If that was true, then he would have been entitled to do what he liked with Sevco 5088, and possibly enjoyed stuffing CW!
[What a feckin mucky world it is out there among the glib and shameless lying sods of ‘businessmen’ , ‘legal advisers’ and general scummy low-lives determined to make their money by cynical exploitation of other people’s trust.
We had two phone calls today from evil bastards trying on a scam. I swore at the automated messengers, of course.
And I thought: well, really, is there any difference between them and the ‘legitimate’ folk who make up company accounts , or audit company accounts, or who ‘regulate’ the financial world?
Don’t they all in their various ways con us? They will sail as close to the wind legally as they can but morally the intent is to screw us!
Or is that too bad a thought at Christmas-time?
John Clark 24th December 2020 at 00:03
EDIT
"..
In looking at that report, incidentally, I think I saw the answer to the ‘novation’ question:
At Note 23 to the accounts there is this:
” On 14 June 2012 Sevco 5088 Limited entered into agreements for no consideration to legally reassign its beneficial interest in funding placing letters held and to novate the trade and assets purchase agreement with RFC 2012 plc (in administration) to SevcoScotland (now The Rangers Football Club Ltd)” "
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Sevco5088 is still alive and kicking according to companies house despite repeated attempts to shut it down (strike it from the register) by interested parties. No deed of novation is recorded at companies house, an observation made many times by SFM members, that may yet have it`s part to play.
A Happy Christmas and peaceful new year to monitors and contributors alike…even the reasonable ones.
Cluster One @ 21:52
When you break the 5.5m figure down I remember that the stadium itself only accounted for 1.5m . It could be argued that it was an integral part of allowing business to continue but many clubs in the past have lost their stadiums (but retained their history) and carried on trading. On a bad day as a brown field site it was worth 20m , much of the demolition costs could have been covered by selling memento's such as seats , pitch plots and even the loving cup and other blue room collectibles and even turned a profit. These were not necessary to carry on trading as a football club but they were crucial if they wanted to carry on trading as the same football club* . Of course it's the same club* they wail , it's the same stadium , we bought the history and we have the trophies to prove it. They then had an IPO stating that very thing . They screwed the tax payer, they screwed the creditors , screwed the creditors again then duped the new investors . Even though the EBT scheme they used was ruled unlawful in the Supreme Court I don't believe 1 penny of those due taxes has ever been recovered . It isn't just Santa who says Ho Ho Ho
Merry Christmas
gunnerb 24th December 2020 at 10:56
"..an observation made many times by SFM members, that may yet have it`s part to play."
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Yes, gunnerb: I should have said that I could not remember when I first saw a reference to the 'novation', but it was long before I thought of looking up Companies House [it might even have been before I knew of such a thing as Companies House, so fundamentally unknowing was I of the ways of the business world!]
In the great scheme of things ,one wonders what the huge big international conglomerates might get up to when a piddling little sh.te of a one-man company can keep its origins so darkly obscured.
Perhaps BDO will present us with a stoater of a Christmas present in a year or two's time in the shape of a few good jail sentences for guilty people, if any such are are found!
Hi Folks,
We'd like to invite you all to sign up at the new forum
forum.sfm.scot
Signup process takes a minute or so. You register, then get a mail within a few seconds, and reply to the mail.
We will be sending everyone an email to all of our contributors past and present in the next few days to invite them to register and be a part of it all.
In the meantime, it would be good to start up some stuff over there, but we will keep both platforms open for a time.
Also, there are no barriers to entry for anyone, although normal rules of decency apply 🙂
There are so many bells and whistles attached to the new Forum, and I guess we will be doing a little learning as we go along.
Also, a Merry Christmas to you all.
J
John Clark 24th December 2020 at 00:03
"At that time, according to the report, Charles Green was the sole shareholder of Sevco 5088! ( I can’t find on the Companies House pages any reference to Green being a shareholder, but he’s mentioned as being a director-not quite the same thing) "
Would he not need to be a shareholder to protect his rights see below why I think he had shares
"
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08011390/filing-history?page=3
14 Jun 2012
Resolutions
Shareholders and directors have two completely different roles in a company. The shareholders (also called members) own the company by owning its shares and the directors manage it. Unless the articles say so (and most do not) a director does not need to be a shareholder and a shareholder has no right to be a director.
Pre-emption rights provide existing shareholders (members) of a company first refusal on the issue, transfer, or transmission of shares in that company. Rights of pre-emption are deemed necessary to protect members against involuntary dilution of their existing shareholdings, i.e. a reduction in the percentage of their current stake in the company.
If he was the sole owner what would he be protecting in the future?
Merry christmas to all at SFM
bigboab1916 24th December 2020 at 22:27
"… see below why I think he had shares.."
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It's not that I, in my humble opinion and in my understanding of the facts and making no categorical assertion, do not believe that CG worked a clever flanker!
I do not say that he did. I simply say that I personally believe that he did.
The problem is that trying to make sense of how the Companies House records are to be read is quite difficult.
They merely record what they have been told, and self-confessedly admit that they do not guarantee the truth of what they have been told!
But the drunken phone call to CW ( if it was not genuine then in my opinion it ought to have been, as being illustrative of the 'thieves falling out' dictum!)
Timtim 24th December 2020 at 11:41
'..It isn't just Santa who says Ho Ho Ho '
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The death rattle of those in office in Scottish Football governance in 2012 will not be a 'ho ho ho' but a very weak, frightened 'oh no no!" as they see their useless and stupid lies for what they are![ cut to 'Citizen Kane' and old Orson/Kane on his deathbed:]
I'm not actually a film buff: but reflecting on that other wonderful film "The Apartment", with Jack Lemmon , Shirley MacLaine and Fred MacMurray, with Fred playing a right bast.rd of an adulterous heel at home with the wife and family on Christmas Eve (in the American 'ideal family Christmas'), I think of other low lives in office who betray the trust reposed in them, and who then go home to be the 'good loving husband and dad' etc, knowing in their black hearts that they are liars and deceivers.
And knowing that others so consider them to be-especially those who , as having themselves been party to the lies, know them to be liars!
One for BP I think. I am trying to register on the new forum and having a problem with the registration form. There is no indication on the form what you should enter into the fields. Most of them are guessable except for the last field. I can't proceed to register until I complete that last field and I'm afraid it's got me stumped!
Anyone else having this problem or am I doing something wrong / using the wrong browser?
A very happy to Christmas to all on sfm.
Merry Christmas to one and all on SFM
One for BP I think. I am trying to register on the new forum and having a problem with the registration form. There is no indication on the form what you should enter into the fields. Most of them are guessable except for the last field. I can’t proceed to register until I complete that last field and I’m afraid it’s got me stumped!
Anyone else having this problem or am I doing something wrong / using the wrong browser?
====================================================
My problem is the email verification has not turned up so even though I managed to register I can’t verify it.
Let me offer wholehearted Christmas good wishes to all in Scottish Football-yeah, I suppose, even to the cheats therein ( in whose case maybe my good wishes might move them to wish to deserve them rather than persist in their deception!)
shug 25th December 2020 at 14:08
"My problem is the email verification has not turned up so even though I managed to register I can’t verify it."
What did you enter in the final field of the form? That's the part that's preventing me from progressing.
Mordecai I have no idea.
Shug
as far as I can see you are now a member. Did you get things sorted?
J
In case anyone is having the same problem I was having with the registration form, the last field is "location". I discovered this when I put in some gobbledegook and received an error message telling me to enter a "…valid location."
Re ‘forum.sfm.scot’:
I’ve filled in the fields successfully, to the extent that my user-name shows up, but I’m awaiting the should-be instantaneous, automated, confirmation email to activate my account. I’ve submitted a request to have it resent, but I’m still waiting. It’s about an hour now (and no, it’s not in my spam folder)…
Fortunately, Jimmy Cliff’s ‘Sitting In Limbo’ is playing on repeat in my head…
Jingso Jimsie
Two mails sent this morning. One at 10:52 and another at 10:54
I’ve manually confirmed you and Shug though, but mails were definitely sent, and no bounce back
J
Thanks BP: still nothing received though!
You are cleared for posting though
https://forum.SFM.scot
There's nothing like a wee bit of history!
I was fiddling about looking back on the SFM blog, and came across this:
"bawsbustedanatha says:
Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 11:39
"It’s started folks….
SANDY JARDINE reckons Rangers are well on their way to being in their best shape for 30 years off the pitch.
On it, he’s convinced Ally McCoist will lead the club back to the top.
But the Ibrox legend won’t forget the turmoil they’ve had to suffer – until shamed ex-owner Craig Whyte is behind bars.
It’s been eight months since Gers were plunged into administration and 18 weeks since the liquidation process was started.
Jardine is just grateful they’re still alive but every time Whyte’s name is mentioned he can’t help but look back in anger.
In an exclusive interview, he told Record Sport: “I now feel even more bitterness towards Whyte than I did at the time. What he did to this club was an absolute disgrace and I still can’t comprehend it.
“It doesn’t surprise me he rarely shows his face in Scotland. He couldn’t try to defend what he did. He decapitated Rangers.
“But I know the police and fraud squad are continuing to look at things and hopefully they will put him in jail.”
Jardine has seen it all at Ibrox during a four-decade association with the club but nothing could have prepared him for the year they’ve just had to endure.
And it pains him trying to explain Rangers’ plight to icons of the past, who will soon be celebrated at ‘Legends Lunches’.
He said: “I’ve been through hard times but there was never a situation when I thought the club could die, and we could have done this year. When I meet the older ex-players, they can’t believe what has happened.
“I met Bobby Brown last week and when he played here, Rangers were known as the biggest club in Britain and one of the biggest in Europe.”
Jardine feels his club have been treated badly by the SFA and SPL, whose indecision left Gers waiting to find out which league they’d be playing in this season.
They are now plying their trade in our game’s bottom tier but former Scotland full-back Jardine is adamant Rangers’ new chief executive Charles Green is the right man to steer the club back to prosperity.
He said: “We’re now in a far better financial position than we’ve been in a long time. It looks as though the share issue will go really well and if it’s successful, we’ll be in our healthiest position for 30 years.
“It’s still early days but Charles has delivered what he said he would.
“The club has been treated abysmally by the governing bodies. We’ve been let down by them and I include the SFA, SPL and the tax authorities in that.
“We know we deserved punishment and if the SFA and SPL felt we merited punishments, they could have done it within a few weeks.
“But it was left to the last minute, just 24 hours before our first game at Brechin we still didn’t know if we had a licence and that’s disgraceful.”
Jardine is convinced Rangers will return to the top of Scottish football and is adamant boss McCoist is the man to take them there."
I drank in the same pub as Sandy.
I'm glad that he appreciated that the new club did not exist as a recognised professional football club in Scottish Football before the nonsense of 'conditional' membership that allowed 'Club 12' to play Brechin!
Honest to God, what were they all about? pitiful in their frantic efforts to deny the death, a death as absolute as was suffered by the corpses on the cold marble of the the morgue in the vicinity of the Court in which Whyte was tried.
Sandy not the brighest, the SFA should have been jailed
Chapter 2: Licence Applicant and Licence Article 12 – Definition of licence applicant
1A licence applicant may only be a football club, i.e. a legal entity fully responsible for a football team participating in national and international competitions which either:
a) is a registered member of a UEFA member association and/or its affiliated league (hereinafter: registered member); or b) has a contractual relationship with a registered member (hereinafter: football company).
2The membership and the contractual relationship (if any) must have lasted – at the start of the licence season – for at least three consecutive years.
Any alteration to the club’s legal form or company structure (including, for example, changing its headquarters, name or club colours, or transferring stakeholdings between different clubs) during this period in order to facilitate its qualification on sporting merit and/or its receipt of a licence to the detriment of the integrity of a competition is deemed as an interruption of membership or contractual relationship (if any) within the meaning of this provision.
Article 13 – General responsibilities of the licence applicant
1The licence applicant must provide the licensor with:
a) all necessary information and/or relevant documents to fully demonstrate that the licensing obligations are fulfilled; and b) any other document relevant for decision-making by the licensor.
2This includes information on the reporting entity/entities in respect of which sporting, infrastructure, personnel and administrative, legal and financial information is required to be provided.
3 Any event occurring after the submission of the licensing documentation to the licensor representing a significant change to the information previously submitted must be promptly notified to the licensor.
Article 14 – Licence 1Clubs which qualify for the UEFA club competitions on sporting merit or through the UEFA fair play rankings must obtain a licence issued by their licensor according to the national licensing regulations, except where Article 15 applies. 2A licence expires without prior notice at the end of the season for which it was issued.
13 3 A licence cannot be transferred.
4A licence may be withdrawn by the licensor’s decision-making bodies if:
a) for any reason a licensee becomes insolvent and enters liquidation, as determined by the applicable national law (where a licensee becomes insolvent but enters administration during the season, for so long as the purpose of the administration is to rescue the club and its business, the licence should not be withdrawn);
b) any of the conditions for the issuing of a licence are no longer satisfied; or c) the licensee violates any of its obligations under the national club licensing regulations.
5As soon as a licence withdrawal is envisaged, the UEFA member association must inform the UEFA administration accordingly.
The new forum won't allow me to reply to posts. It claims, "Your account is currently awaiting confirmation. Confirmation was sent to …..(my email). I have not received an email or a requested duplicate, please advise.
As an aside I prefer the old format.
Ballyargus
There are some domains which appear to be losing our emails. I have enabled your new account on the forum and you are free to post. I will also send you an email to see if you receive it.
Anyone who is having this problem (and I guess there are half a dozen or so), please mail me at bp@sfm.scot
We will sort it
I have not registered for the new site, but feel it is cumbersome and unwieldy.
It also looks to me much less straightforward than this – so please consider a return BP.
The new forum is far too busy. Has no appeal to me at all. Hardly any of the heavy hitters have appeared. Easy and Ally Jambo. Homunculus etc. I am swithering about donating anymore. Feel a bit sad but the coronavirus situation is making me feel that way anyway. Good luck for the future