Saying the last couple of weeks has been colourful for Scottish Football would be an understatement.
We are now in a position where we have a Taskforce co-chaired by the heads of two clubs to look at what needs to be done in the Covid 19 landscape right now and into whatever future unfolds.
Representatives of the clubs first convened last Monday and Graham Tatters, Elgin City chairman told BBC Saturday Sportsound that the 2nd division has already agreed unanimously to back 3 leagues of 14 as their preferred option.
On the same show Iain McMenemy, Chairman of Stenhousemuir effectively told us among other things that nothing in Scottish Football is ever easy, and mentioned that he believed the fans should be involved in any process.
Around the same time a very welcome conversation was underway between Les Gray, Taskforce co-chair and Paul Goodwin of the SFSA with Les asking for and welcoming fan input.
Dave Allen Called Our Future Years Ago
His oft quoted “I wouldn’t be starting from here joke” is a remarkable insight into where we find ourselves.
Our game is on the cusp of internecine war following the confusing combination of events we’ve all see playing out.
The hastily convened Taskforce has co-chairs who have also been quoted in the MSM as having different agendas, one for an immediate solution and one for a long-term plan.
Nothing wrong with that, in fact brilliant, we need both because they are interrelated.
Collectively we have to ask not just how do we minimise the economic and social impacts of the pandemic but also how do we start to shape our game for a better future?
Both these needs are right nows and both are the remit of the current Taskforce.
Now is the Time to Circle Our Wagons
This unique, open-ended, revenue-winter hit our clubs unexpectedly and overnight.
It is already brutal and will get worse with no current exit plan and no future certainties.
We know Dave Cormack’s Aberdeen is currently burning £1M per month.
No club has Covid immunity and a world of salary reductions, deferrals furloughed staff, little in the coffers and no exit strategy or road map out is a stark reality.
It’s hard to imagine that footballers have become liabilities rather than assets in a blink of an eye.
But it’s not hard to foresee that the financial stress on our clubs will see casualties.
Never before have we needed inter and intra-club teamwork for the common good.
But not in Scottish Football where an internecine spat is about to flare big time.
Civil War Breaking Out?
The record will show the recent SPFL Good Friday vote got an 80% plus backing vote from the clubs but in reality became a farce as Dundee eventually changed their “casting” vote.
This was paralleled by the “whistleblower” outburst by Rangers interim chairman Douglas Park demanding immediate suspension of Neil Doncaster and Rod McKenzie and an independent inquiry that sort of happened but not to the satisfaction of some.
One week later it rages on in the media with words today like “damning evidence, serious concerns, lack of fair play, coercing and bullying” being the vocabulary fed to the MSM to share with their audiences.
It seems some clubs have become unhappy with how our game is run and want to do something about it, so welcome to our world guys, – us fans have been saying that for a long time.
Our game needs big change but it won’t happen overnight and a pandemic crisis is maybe not the best timing for internecine strife.
Closing Down 2019 – 2020
This season is already ended for all Scottish clubs outside the Premiership.
UEFA didn’t do much to help and could have been more proactive in stopping inter club squabbling but plus ca change.
Most football people I have spoken to (with their self-interest hats off) were not totally happy with the implications of closing the season early and pro rata-ing points to decide champions but pragmatically accept it is the best answer or the least worst solution.
Asked about teams being relegated while having a bona-fide chance of fighting back there is less support and indeed genuine heartfelt pushback.
Some more enlightened leagues like the Lowland League who took the decision to avoid further damage on some of their members at this time through a no relegation policy and a wait and see what’s best are seen as wiser.
What Needs To Be Done Today?
We all know that out of the Budge/Gray Taskforce there will be a few options put on the table.
There is always the status quo of 4 leagues 12, 10, 10, 10.
A 14, 14, 14, setup was discussed and voted on by the current second division clubs last Friday.
Our own similar suggestion published on your SFM was 14, 14 and a bottom league of 16 to keep the integrity of the pyramid.
Two weeks on, a more pragmatic option and one to be considered by all might be to agree no relegation for now and to wait until more is known over the next crucial weeks.
We have time on our hands and no need to rush.
Why not take our lead from the sages at the Lowland League?
As a fan what do you think?
Should we plan for an interim period?
Should it be status quo?
Do we apply parameters (like no relegation) but accept that any other plan has to be kept flexible till more is known and agreed?
Your insights and views are welcome by Ms. Budge, Mr. Gray and their team either on this forum where I’ll read and collate them or if you prefer sent to me at
andrew@scottishfsa.org
What Needs To Be Done for Our Tomorrows?
We live in the real world and that means money is and always will be the prime driver and starting point.
Money is entwined with self-interest, status, power, politics and sometimes greed.
A given is every club will always want more and that is the easiest of several elephants in any room when looking at change to impact positively on the future of our game as a whole.
But maybe, just maybe now is different.
Post Covid many clubs will be on their knees financially and it will be a different world.
Les Gray’s Million Pounds Question For all Fans
No surprise it’s not an easy one
If you were charged with helping to create a sustainable and healthy future for Scottish Football is what would you do?
How would you advise Les, Ann and their Taskforce team about the right moves to make?
Once again insights welcome on SFM or to
andrew@scottishfsa.org
As a starter for 10 some stuff that has come up in previous SFSA fan surveys about our game (in alphabetical order) includes –
Better Communication, Bigger Leagues, Community Involvement, Council Telly live games, Gate Sharing, Grass Roots Investment, Fairness, Family Friendly, Fewer clubs, Integrity, Kids Free, Leadership, Less leagues, No Bigotry, Openness, Outside expertise, Same rules for all, Schools Football, Simplicity, Standing Sections, Summer Football, TV Kick-off times, Regional Lower Leagues, Reserve League, Strict Liability, Transparency, Wholesome Sponsors etc.
The list is not exhaustive. Please feel free to add any others.
Some will be contradictory, some nice to haves but the crucial thing to do is to find the smartest moves and build on them.
We’re responding to Les and Ann in good faith
Never before have we the fans been asked in such an open way.
Collectively we have a short-term end of season issue and a need to set up our game for what comes next which might include an interim period.
The background to any responses you offer is uncertainty exacerbated by growing internecine chaos and increasing vitriol.
I’ll end with some wise and hopeful words by a Taskforce Co- chair
Without openness, transparency and pragmatism we will simply keep making the same mistakes.
Ann Budge
‘Finloch 28th April 2020 at 16:52
Every day we get closer to an unnecessary civil war…’
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I’m not sure that the civil war is unnecessary, perhaps the SPFL is an autocratic organisation that requires examination & reform: it’s just that this isn’t the time for it. Add the fact that TRFC’s premise for attacking it is based on unsubstantiated (at this time) allegations. What if their ‘smoking gun’ is actually a ‘dribbling water-pistol’?
TRFC is desperate to crash the bus & to do it now. Why? That’s the question for me. What’s so rank-rotten at Ibrox that someone thinks the way out from under is to attempt to destroy the SPFL & its board?
As you listed a couple of songs, here’s one from me:
‘I Was In The House When The House Burned Down’ by Warren Zevon. It mentions a ‘loving cup’, ‘I had the money till it all was spent’ & ‘I had the money till they made me pay’.
Homunculus 28th April 2020 at 21:30
“However to suggest that what happened in 2012, in the run up to it and afterwards was not illegal simply isn’t true.”
You may have missed my subsequent post where I clarified that point. I wasn’t claiming that Rangers’ actions weren’t illegal, but that, as far as I’m aware, the football authorities weren’t acting illegally in their failure to deal with Rangers. As I also pointed out, I reserve judgment on the matter of the UEFA licence award in 2011, the outcome of which may determine whether the SFA acted illegally.
upthehoops 29th April 2020 at 07:15
"…why is a man professing such a thirst for honesty and transparency so selective at what he gets angry about? There have been huge scandals since 2012 that neither Tom or any of his BBC peers have demanded action on, and in fact have backed Rangers and the authorities."
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'Journalists' like the gombeen man are a worse plague than covid-19 and do far more damage to 'society' and the body politic than any disease.
Their non-reportng, mis-reporting, selective reporting even in the matter of 'Sport' in order to suit particular agendas in support of untruth is typical of those who would quite happily report political untruth on behalf of repressive political regimes for personal gain.
Who would trust any journalist or national broadcaster known to maintain the fiction that RFC of 1872 did not die as football club?
Many such journalists will end up on the breadline as the disreputable organs they work for progressively go bust-in the same way that RFC of 1872 went bust.
When that happens, they will be in no mood to think of denying those Liquidations as they scrabble and scratch to find some other corrupt master to whom to sell their rotten souls.
Even Moira Gordon of the 'Scotsman' is being selectively brave today!
In her piece in today's edition she says:
" Given that the SPFL board have been selective in either hearing concerns or deciding which one to address, they are going to have to be far more comprehensive in that document[the Q&A document they are going to issue] if they are to quash the ill-feeling that appears to be swelling rather than abating"
Selective?
After 12 years of silence about the Big Lie, and nothing in the way of previous criticism of the cheating by SDM's RFC, she's got some nerve, has our Moira.
She ends her extensive and severe criticism of the SPFLwith this
" Scottish Football needs answers before it can move along"
That's her credibility as any kind of journalist well and truly blown.She'll be appearing on BBC Radio Scotland soon, as back-up for the gombeen man!
A lot to digest from the statement but before it gets lost :
"…..the SPFL furloughed several staff and a number of the executives voluntarily took salary cuts. As a result, only an executive team of five remain to administer and manage the on-going business of the organisation as well as planning for the end of the current Season and for Season 2020/21. Their workload has been extremely onerous, managing a huge number of additional tasks – liaising with the SFA, medical officers, the Government, UEFA, other league bodies, our commercial partners and clubs."
Note : No mention of supporters. Telling.
Scottish Football needs a a strong Arbroath.
Apologies for quoting myself from 1934hrs last night:
'What if their ‘smoking gun’ is actually a ‘dribbling water-pistol’?'
Keith Jackson's piece this morning:
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/smoking-gun-water-pistol-rangers-21942630
'As one source said last night: “What Rangers need to deliver now is something devastating. Something that points to serious wrongdoing inside the SPFL board room. What they need is a smoking gun. But the general consensus around most of the clubs right now is that they are holding nothing more than a water pistol."'
Morning Keith, hope you're well & enjoying the content here
Mordecai 29th April 2020 at 06:00
…….
Mo problems here, may be something on your side of things.
John Clark 29th April 2020 at 09:45
(Moira Gordon) ends her extensive and severe criticism of the SPFLwith this
" Scottish Football needs answers before it can move along"
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Hey! Do I not have copyright on this?
Scottish Football needs strong IPR enforcement….
Being the cynic that I am, I feel that there may be a PR box ticking exercise going on here. The proof of the pudding lies in the outcome of course, and there is no doubt that vastly divergent views between fans and authorities over this may only highlight the need for institutional change.
The ability to be proactive in the face of Covid 19 fallout is limited, so I think the principles that should be established on reconstruction should be governed by the over-arching tenet that as ar as possible, no club should be punished as a consequence of the lockdown.
Ordinarily I would say that this should be a deal-breaker, but these are extraordinary times.
It has been suggested to me that we have some kind of non-partisan petition created along the line of "Scottish Football fans have no confidence in the governance of the sport by the SFA and SPFL."
Current issues have certainly precipitated this, but despite the SFSA's understandable attempts to set up a line of communication with the authorities, how do we feel about this right now?
Put it this way BP. To requote Andrews own quote of Ms Budge’
we all know the reality is that they’d be delighted to continue to make the same mistakes because here’s the thing – they don’t have sufficient consensus vote to convince themselves they’re doing anything wrong. That’s fine, its understandable even, but it does require the trifling matter of several thousand mug punters putting their dissatisfaction to one side and turning up every week. Yet suddenly, without their cash, sorry support, suddenly it’s all a load of mistakes and they’re very keen not to repeat them. Temporarily. And for the top league only.
As I said before, I would be lying not to admit I’m enjoying their self inflicted self absorbed discomfort.
Smugas
Empathy meters on stun ?
Andrew Smith, I would add to that list Reform of refereeing in Scotland. Especially breaking all ties with the SFA. The leagues to appoint refereeing associations on fixed terms and monitor performance.
Also, to fully adopt Financial Fair Play.
I think keeping it simple and non-partisan enables support to be garnered from all quarters of Scottish Football.
"Scottish Football fans have no confidence in the governance of the sport by the SFA and SPFL."
We all know the issues and the roots of the mistrust. Let's get the door open and take it from there.
Scottish Football needs a show of fan strength.
BP;
"…
It has been suggested to me that we have some kind of non-partisan petition created along the line of "Scottish Football fans have no confidence in the governance of the sport by the SFA and SPFL…"
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Totally agree BP, that this would be preferable, IMO.
Mrs Budge said “without openness, transparency and pragmatism we will simply keep making the same mistakes”.
I don’t disagree with Mrs Budge, but I do have to ask why it can be cherry picked in terms of when openness and transparency is demanded. Can she use her influence to ask for the Five-Way-Agreement to be made public? Can she also ask why it is acceptable for the SFA to sit on a disciplinary matter for two and a half years? Lastly, why is it not open to people from every group in society to become a Grade 1 match official?
I thought when Mrs Budge came into the game she might have challenged the age old secrecy and prejudices which blight Scottish football governance. So far her silence has been her consent in my view, until now of course when her club is directly affected!
I will finish by saying that I do think imposing relegation on any club is very unfair. Therefore I would be in favour of the 14 team top league model which has a split which guarantees fairness in terms of home and away fixtures, which we currently don’t have.
The full Q&A with questions from Murdoch McLennan and answers from Murdoch McLennan.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52472021
Jingo.Jimsie @ 10/09
Made me smile and reminded me of part of a line from Mr Tambourine Man:-
“in the jingle jangle (!) morning I’ll come following you”
Another one up for the Bampots!!
Breaking news – according to Rangers Radio caller has heard that (I know – what was I doing in there?), Peter Lawell’s son works for Deloitte!
I demand that they be investigated!
And who has made the following quote, from The Sun today;
"I just hope that what comes out of reconstruction isn't an outcome that protects the few that it's a conclusion that looks at what's in the best interests of Scottish football.
"I would include the Highland, Lowland, Juniors and even the amateur game in that as well.
"It can't just look at what's right for the existing 42 clubs."
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Step forward and take a bow, the absolutely shameless Stewart Regan!
I smell shite !! All of a sudden they want fans opinions , open and honest, transparency and all that. Now is not the time . Its time to buckle down be safe and see whats left at the other end . Sickens me that the media are in a flap about honesty , truth , , transparency . What they really mean is selective honesty, selective truth and selective transparancy . Obviously because Rangers are drowning in a sea of debt, lies and historical fraud they are gonna try and Mask Rangers HUGE financial problems by claiming “It was the corona virus wot did it” . Alec Rae is the new Derek Jonston cheerleader , no points lost if you go into administration . We all know where you are going with this Alec you are fooling no one . Just the start of a concerted campaign by you and and all the other media lapdogs . I genuinely feel for clubs who have ran their club within their cash budgets and are now struggling because of the Corona Virus . A points deduction would be unfair if they go into administration .The Rangers however have probably been trading insolvently for god knows how long and it would stick in the craw if they used this as an excuse when the enevitable administration comes their way. . Im self employed and have nt earned a penny since lockdown and dont know when I will so I know where the genuine honest clubs are coming from. .Im sure everyone on here would probably agree to a genuine Q&A about truth blah blah blah if they thought it was genuine . I for one am very suspicious of this and the timing. Wait until this is all over and have this Q&A as long as nothing is off the table. Lets visit the reasons when it all started to go wrong , Yes away back to the early 2000s when a world class administrator helped set up EBTs for a certain club ( his club) then moved up the greasy pole to the SFA where he gladly kept them hidden along with probably all the high heid yins at the SFA of that day . Then lets talk about OCNC ,or giving a team a golden pass into the champs league fraudulently , The 5WA , the LNS sham, continually turning a blind eye to a club that was a financial head case . As long as this and probably loads of other stuff Ive forgotten is part of your Q&A then yes Im all for it. As I said before now is not the time though . I could save you a lot of bother and tell you the common denominator on the vast majority of our problems . The Club from Govan and the Authorites who are paid to protect and make our game flourish ( stop laughing) are afraid of them . I need a cold shower
After reading both the statement from Rangers on Sunday and the open letter from the SPFL board yesterday. It struck me that a strange shift had taken place.
Instead of the customary long rambling affair, the message from Ibrox was short, sharp and to the point. The letter from the SPFL board in comparison, was indeed a rambling and IMO poorly drafted effort that didn't appear to go down well with many in the media who commented upon it.
As my mind and body begins to recover from my Coronavirus shock (I've not had it, as far as I know, but I have been living in something akin to a state of shock for a few weeks now) I feel a bit more like entering the debate over Scottish football's future, though that might not last for I think bad news will be just around the corner for some time to come.
I'll start by saying I didn't realise that the current blog had been written by a guest blogger and thought it was something Bink Pink had written, so I read it without any mistrust or preconceived expectations, and I have to say I found little wrong with it, so I read it again, and lo and behold, I found nothing wrong with it again, and found more to agree with than not.
Andrew Smith offers no solutions, and I don't think that was his intention, but I think it's important for all involved to continually take stock, which is what I think he is doing here, of where we are as our society changes as more is learned of the effect the virus will have on the world. In my opinion there is less than little chance of next season starting in August and a more than passing chance that it won't start this year.
I am very much of the opinion that the title issue and the relegation issue should have been tackled completely separately, as they are both completely different in both their sporting effect and the economic outcome for the clubs involved. This is true even in normal times. For each season starts with (in the case of the Premiership) 12 teams all on zero points and ends up with one winner who gains a title while nobody else loses anything that they had held as a result.
On the other hand, we start with 12 teams who have a place in the top league, but end with one, or two, clubs losing their place, and not only losing that place but also having a question mark placed on their future with the only certainty that they are going to lose a great deal of potential income while having to continue to finance an expensive (for the league they will be playing in) squad. This year, of course, that future takes on a much more sinister hue. A hue akin to death in some cases.
I think that, by trying to solve both issues in the same motion, the SPFL has caused many more problems than they would have if they'd kept them as separate matters. I think TRFC, in trying to stop Celtic being crowned champions, have been able to gain at least one ally, that really has no interest in who is made champions, they might not have had had the two issues been kept separate.
I can offer no solution to the way forward, other than to say that I feel that the SPFL (and all leagues) should be viewing the matter as far more complex than just deciding on relegation or how many clubs per league we should have next season. They should be looking at it with the question, how do we find a set up that will allow us the flexibility to shift from a season starting by the Autumn and one starting in Winter while allowing a viable league competition to still take place?
In the meantime, I think the overriding aim of the SPFL should be to try to ensure the futures of all their member clubs, even TRFC, while not only ensuring all are treated equally and fairly, but that no club is put in a worse position than they are now if they were not already doomed*.
*This clearly does not impact on the title decision as neither Celtic nor TRFC will be doomed by the outcome (though one of them might very well be doomed by their very own brand of hubris).
StevieBC 29th April 2020 at 13:20
'…Step forward and take a bow, the absolutely shameless Stewart Regan! '
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Shameless isn't the word,StevieBC.
Regan was at the very heart of the 5-Way Agreement which enshrined an actual untruth of monstrous proportions in that it proposed and propagated the lie that TRFC (or SevocScotland/Club 12) was Rangers of 1872.
An untruth eagerly seized upon by the drafters of the Prospectus for the IPO, and continuously since then propagated relentlessly by successive SFA/SPFL boards as well as by football hacks in the print press and the BBC.
Scottish Football might very possibly die under the weight of its own deceit over the past decade.
Covid-19 might simply just hasten matters.
I do not wish that to happen: but I'm pretty sure we cannot go on with the Big Lie and the generalised distrust and suspicion of our governance bodies that their readiness to sustain that Lie creates.
From McLelland's Q&A.
"In the absence of any such report, those alleging "bullying and coercion" risk bringing the game into disrepute and sowing further unnecessary division".
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Regardless of sowing further unnecessary division, bringing the game into disrepute is a serious charge. It should not, and cannot, be allowed to slide, or be ignored, should the report not be forthcoming or consist mainly of jumbled up words in no particular order.
easyJambo 29th April 2020 at 13:06
Re Macleannan's Q&A
Understand why loans weren't the answer but no explanation of why an 'extraordinary' interim payment couldn't have been made based on current placings and a final but nominal payment issued at a later date once the season had been either declared ended or played out.
Talk of clubs clambering for money but the lower division clubs I heard on the radio such as Forfar and Falkirk said they were fine for cash until after the summer. Does anyone know who exactly was needing the small amounts, given the pro-rata split of only £1.8m, and the fact they wouldn't have normally expected it until towards the end of May when the leagues and play-offs ended?
The 'false deadline' of 5pm of good Friday was poorly chosen. Similarly the SPFL board seemed to feel pressured by what they feared as potential 'negative press' if a result wasn't announced later that same evening. Therefore they didn't think it through in terms of the 28 day rule and are clearly able to be easily manipulated by press reaction as opposed to doing the 'right thing'.
It also seems the SPFL did not think through the scenario of what would happen if not all the required votes were received by the 5:00pm false deadline. MacLennan seems to be implying that regardless of what occurred the board seemed hell bent on reaching the objective of releasing monies to the lower division clubs and to hell with everything else.
Still no explanation of why Dundee's email didn't make it through before the false deadline, like all other votes bar the one received during the meeting that commenced at 5:00pm everyone else's. We understand it got stuck in quarantine, but does anyone know how/why?
Not sure if it has been said but who was the 'outstanding' votes in the Premiership and League 1 & 2. I assume the rejection in the Premiership was Hearts but who from that division didn't put pen to paper. While their vote may not have mattered in terms of the required 75% it would be interesting to know who abstained, when and why. Similar to the lower divisions. (As discussed before when a relatively well run club like Aberdeen said they were scrambling around trying to digest information, seek clarification, get legal advice, gather their board's views etc it clearly wasn't the best way to make an important decision).
No recognition at any time, even when issuing press releases on 15 April that clubs like Partick and Stranraer were being hard done by in the immediate aftermath, in terms of sporting integrity, by being relegated without deciding their own destiny on the pitch. This was only an afterthought. The same could of course be said for those who missed out a chance of potentially gaining promotion via the play-off system.
If you are a members organisation and a handful of your members are going to be disadvantaged by the results of a vote, you should have the decency to acknowledge that and, at the very least, thank them for 'taking one for the team' in difficult circumstances.
The upshot for me is that the main thrust of the exercise was to get paltry sums to the lower division teams and worry about any other fall out afterwards.
In other words the same quick fix, short term thinking that has blighted and held Scottish football back for decades.
No matter how they try to camouflage it, The Rangers sole aim is to prevent Celtic being declared 9 in a row champions, and also take the spotlight away from the perilous financial state that they are in. There is little or no chance of their resolution, to have an independent enquiry, being passed, and then what.
Like spoiled children, they will continue to moan and groan at everyone and anything, ably assisted by the MSM, and their own placemen on radio, TV and print determined to disrupt and divide while their own house is about to fall down round about them.
Cant they wake up and realise that when football restarts, with social distancing they’ll be playing in front of crowds of circa 10,000, not the 50,000 they were used to. They couldn’t balance their books when they had the massive income from the large crowds. How on earth will they manage with crowds and income down by 80%?
If reports are correct, they are currently up to their eyes in debt which they can’t service, and are also facing substantial damages in their ongoing court cases.
As soon as the EGM is over and their resolution lost, The Rangers should immediately be charged with bringing the game into disrepute and their CEO asked to resign his position.
It is plain to see that the SPFL have not covered themselves with glory in trying to rush a solution to release funds to clubs without thinking through the consequences. It is further evidence of incompetence but corruption? I’m not so sure. Reading EJ’s posts the last couple of weeks one gets a sense of his anger and frustration not previously noted on this blog. I believe that anger is justified in the conflation of champions and relegation into a single vote. I can sympathise with Hearts but I fail to see a legitimate reason for grievance from TRFC. Realistically they were not going to overtake Celtic and if they have substantive evidence of wrongdoing beyond ..but,but Dundee changed their mind then they should publish and be damned. It would be relatively simple at this stage for the SPFL to cut the ground from under TRFC by advocating no relegation and say they are actively pursuing a 14/14/14 restructure subject to audited business plans and rigorous financial fair play rules. Clubs run with proper financial probity should not be disadvantaged by the reckless profligacy of others. After this crisis has passed whatever professional football is left standing will surely have changed .One hopes it will be for the better. A hae ma doots.
This bit of the Q&A piqued my attention –
' Members either agree with a resolution put to each of them or they do not, and although Members were asked to state a position by 5pm on the Friday, every club was told in writing that it could, if it wished, take the full 28 days in which to respond to agree or otherwise.'
If that is the case , why all the noise about artificial deadlines , other than mischief-making ?
I have no problems with no points deduction for going into administration at this time as long as they club/clubs can prove beyond doubt that they were on a sound financial footing before this occurred.
As most other pursuits are kind of closed to us these days, I'm doing a fair amount of reading.
A long time ago I was much taken by the film "55 days in Peking". Prior to seeing that film I don't think I had even heard of the Boxer rebellion. Shortly after watching the movie I bought "The Siege at Peking' by Peter Fleming [brother of Ian Fleming of James Bond fame].
I am now in process of re-reading it.
About half an hour ago I reached page 53 where there is this description of a journalist who was in the Britsh legation building during the siege.
"Dr George Ernest Morrison was thirty-eight years old.The son of a Scottish emigrant to Australia…. he began his journalistic career with a pungent exposure of the traffic in native labour between the South Seas Islands and the Queensland sugar plantations…..He walked across Australia…He led an expedition to New Guinea…He qualified as a doctor…served as a medical officer at the Rio Tinto copper mines in Spain and as court physician to a Moroccan sheikh…..then walked across China from Shanghai to the Burma frontier..and in 1895 joined 'The Times', becoming its Peking Correspondent two years later.
He combined flair with scrupulous accuracy to an extent which sometimes irked the Foreign Office in London. It was he who provoked Lord Curzon to coin the phrase “the intelligent anticipation of events before they occur,”, which '(wrote The Times' ..was perhaps the most genuine tribute ever wrung from unwilling lips to the highest qualities which a correspondent can bring to bear upon his work”
My kind of journalist!
Is there a Morrison-type among the SMSM /BBC pack of Big Lie deniers and PR handout propagandists?
Or a newspaper prepared to have anyone like him on their payroll?
Courage and scrupulous accuracy combined with flair. How wonderful!
[ I don't think he Morrison featured as a character in the movie, but during the siege he played a significant and courageous part in saving many lives]
gunnerb 29th April 2020 at 15:56
Reading EJ’s posts the last couple of weeks one gets a sense of his anger and frustration not previously noted on this blog.
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Your observation is undoubtedly correct. I guess that it is to do with having a stake in the game (both as a Hearts shareholder and an FOH contributor).
That frustration is with the football authorities, their decision making, and the self interest of clubs who unquestioningly support their respective Boards’ decisions. I see it as being similar to that experienced by the fans of many clubs in the lead up to RFC’s demise and its aftermath.
In both sets of circumstances the football authorities have circled the wagons and sought to deny and deflect any criticism of the actions they took.
There are however a couple of differences. The most obvious one is that the MSM appears to be on the case and willing to press the SPFL for answers. That pressure is at least forcing some response in the form of press statements and open letters to clubs (some of it misguided).
That’s the same MSM, which for the most part refused to get involved in the RFC saga, despite having evidence of wrongdoing laid on a silver salver for them. It is galling that they have acted this time when they don’t have the same level of evidence available to them.
The most likely reason is that it is a favoured club in the form of TRFC that is leading the complaints of wrongdoing on this occasion, hence their championing of the cause.
If that club has the damning evidence that they claim, then we should all be grateful. If they don’t have that evidence, then they should immediately be subject to a charge of bringing the game into disrepute. No ifs, buts, or maybes about it.
The other notable change I’ve noticed is on the blog itself. The current issues don’t appear to have generated the level of discussion that I would have expected, particularly when the actions and governance of the footballing authorities is questioned. I don’t know for certain why that is, but I suspect that it is a mix of sentiments, some reluctant to be seen to support TRFC (albeit without them publishing their dossier of evidence), some actually supporting the stance taken by the SPFL, some content with the direction of travel in a partisan way and some just disillusioned by what happened during the RFC saga who might want change but are content to watch from the sidelines.
I can’t believe that many posters on SFM don’t want change at the top of the game. If this situation leads to change then I would most definitely welcome it. I couldn’t care less who triggers it, whether its a single club, a few, or many.
The head of the French federation also revealed how the final tables will be decided.
They will be based on the last completed round of fixtures, and promotion and relegation will be enforced.
He said: "That's what the rules say. We've set an example with the amateur leagues and, believe me, it's not easy.
"Promotion and relegation? Yes, it has to be that way."
paddy malarkey 29th April 2020 at 16:14
If that is the case , why all the noise about artificial deadlines , other than mischief-making ?
===============================
It's just that, noise.
If the document which I have copied is real it specifically said that members had 28 days in which to respond. That was the only "deadline"
The 5pm was a request on the voting slip which was attached to that document, again it is clear it is a request. They wanted to move things forward as quickly as possible and if the resolution reached it's 75% (in each of the three voting blocks) then they didn't have to wait the full 4 weeks.
You often see these things in such situations, something starts being said, then repeated, then magically becomes a fact. There was only one deadline.
I notice from the new blog above that subjects that have arisen during previous surveys held by the Scottish Football Supporters Association included Same Rules For All, Strict Liability, No Bigotry, Fairness and Integrity, amongst many others listed.
Perhaps it’s just me, but I’d be utterly astonished and more than a little disappointed if a substantial number of Scottish football supporters had never broached the subject of one of the elephants in the room, namely the development, enablement and acceptance of a sterile duopoly that has stifled the game in this country for 35 years, during which no club other than Celtic or Rangers has won the top league title.
Leaving aside the rancour and division actively encouraged by our money-grabbing football authorities during a century plus of pseudo-religious, Irish political nonsense that should have no place in football and the subsequent mass glory-hunting by fans leaving behind their home town clubs to instead attend matches at Parkhead and Ibrox on the back of success achieved in such circumstances, isn't it worthy of an airing?
When I refer to enablement and acceptance, think of the death through liquidation of the original Rangers Football Club. Think of the automatic reaction of the football authorities in 2012, which was to take whatever drastic action they deemed necessary to salvage television and other commercial contracts because they were largely predicated on ‘Old Firm’ matches.
No thought was given to the notion that in the fullness of time, Aberdeen or Dundee United might build themselves back up to a level that would see them once again challenging for titles, or that Hearts, Hibs, Kilmarnock, St Johnstone or others deserved the opportunity of replacing Rangers in the top two.
Think about the football authorities’ attempt to gerrymander a new club into the then SPL to avoid the predicted financial Armageddon that never materialised. I’m not quite sure why they didn’t just rewrite their rules and regulations to specify that Celtic and Rangers are prohibited from finishing in the bottom six of the league, far less being relegated or even liquidated! That would of course be akin to ‘rigging’ football, but thanks to our myopic money-driven football authorities, the game is all but rigged anyway. There is an acceptance that that’s the way it must be – Celtic and Rangers as the largest supported clubs, driving the most money into football’s coffers, must be at the top of our game for the rest of eternity because no other model works. End of.
Unfortunately, such dogma works, because chairmen of all the cannon-fodder clubs such as my own were and are only too happy to feed off the scraps from the table of the big two rather than admit that one of the protagonists had died, even although that death offered a once in a generation opportunity for advancement to many of those clubs, who instead opted for perpetual mediocrity and, at best, mid-table obscurity.
I know that the ‘New Firm’ broke the duopoly back in the late 70s/early 80s of their own volition, but there is no sign of a modern day Alex Ferguson or Jim McLean on the horizon, nor is there any likelihood of our football authorities opting for anything that threatens the status quo, even to the extent that a Rangers Version 3 will inevitably be unveiled if Version 2 goes down the plughole like its’ predecessor, as seems increasingly likely.
Now, before any of you Celtic supporters get your panties in a twist, firstly at my audacity for linking the two clubs together and secondly for daring to suggest you might want to give up what effectively has been virtually a decade long monopoly (rather than the usual duopoly), I suggest you might want to have a word with Peter Lawwell and Dermot Desmond about financial inter-dependency before berating me for simply stating the bleeding obvious.
I do have a modicum of sympathy for you not wishing to give up what is rightfully yours just to satisfy those of us who are bored of the repetitive nature of your incessant trophy haul, or ‘jealous’ as you might call it, but I do so in the same way that I view hundreds of square miles of beautiful Highland landscape in my neighbourhood that is owned by a single landowner. While that seems grossly unfair to me, I can at least acknowledge that if roles were reversed, I would be loath to give it up if my ancestors had owned it for centuries.
Unfortunately, I don’t have ready-made solutions to the ‘problem’ other than some form of financial handicapping akin to the franchise system adopted by some US sports, which I don’t personally like or endorse, or perhaps a drastic rejigging of prize-money dispersal whereby the pyramid is turned upside down so that finances are more equitably spread.
I fully appreciate that nobody knows how many clubs will be left standing once the coronavirus pandemic has finally departed and that the health of our nation has to be the current priority, but we may well find we have no football at all to watch for a long, long time to come, in which case, why not discuss the unmentionable in the intervening period?
Would have given you 5 thumbs up for that Highlander!!
Highlander 29th April 2020 at 17:51
Celtic were literally hours away from going out of business and have built the business back up from practically nothing, or less than nothing when you think about the debt position.
Who helped the club when the Bank of Scotland were happily going to put them out of business … the Celtic support via share issues, buying tickets etc.
Celtic are where they are because of the support, building the business sustainably and for the most part living within the club's means. Yes there was some stupidity at a later date but the fans rallied round again.
Celtic are in the position they are in because of the support and an excellent board running the business.
[moderated]
I can’t immediately cite instances but I am pretty sure the “duopoly” and finances have been regularly aired on this site. Including but not limited to gate sharing and a more equitable distribution of Champions league monies.
Highlander 29th April 2020 at 17:51
I think most fans of the diddy clubs view CFC and TRFC as two cheeks of the same *rse , sh*tt*ng down on the rest of us from the top of the table , the only difference season to season is which sits higher . We are tolerated only because they couldn't survive without a competition but are still viewed with contempt . They wouldn't have looked back had they been given the opportunity to join a different league to further their own interests . And regardless of whether you accept that one of the clubs died , you are still only getting scraps off the table . You never know , though , that if a large number of clubs go to the wall in England , they may get invited to make up the numbers in those leagues . We can but hope .
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/british-museum-19-million-images-now-free-4-million-items-can-now-be-seen-virtually-at-british-museum-3451894
Nothing to do with any football , but a wee resource to pass some time during lockdown
https://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/british-museum-19-million-images-now-free-4-million-items-can-now-be-seen-virtually-at-british-museum-3451894
Highlander 29th April 2020 at 17:51
I'm with you on the distribution of prize monies Highlander, but there is no need for pyramids of any kind, upside down or not. It takes X amount of clubs to form a league, likewise, a cup tournament. Without them there is neither leagues nor cups. Divvy the purse monies equally. Taking a wee amount from a big pocket, is akin to a large amount in an empty one. It's not much, but it's a start.
A cup or a flag, plus either promotion or Euro entry is plenty. Clubs already capitalise on successes through other revenue streams such as broadcasting, matchday income etc. There really is no need for a purse prize……I've yet to see a fan cheer at a player holding a cheque aloft.
Tom English has had an article published on the BBC website tonight that would not look out of place on a Rangers fans blog.
Highlander29th April 2020 at 17:51===================
Excellent post.
People such as Auldheid and dare I say myself recognise the financial inequality you highlight and have advocated ways of changing things to create a leveller playing field. It would be useful if more fans of the big two could get on board with this.
Sharing the finances more equally should create a more competitive environment and improve the product on the park that the fans could enjoy.
With all the corruption and mismanagement in the game I have lost my appetite to attend the matches of my diddy team but still contribute to the fans trust out of a misplaced sense of loyalty.
From English on his BBC platform tonight
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52472024
“..MacLennan has been chairman of the SPFL for almost three years and in that time he hasn’t done a single interview with a journalist.”
Yer dead right Tom, plenty of hacks like yourself to trot out their stupid cliches, but never a true and honest journalist among them!
Makes me chuckle a bit that Doncaster is now seen as a great administrator after all these years of being public enemy number one.
Blagged from James Doleman SPFL should hire them for PR .
https://lettersofnote.com/2011/02/14/regarding-your-stupid-complaint/
Bill1903 29th April 2020 at 19:40
Where have you seen this.
I hope the evidence dossier hasn't been accidentally shredded….. It wouldn't be a good look.
Homunculus 29th April 2020 at 18:09
Oh and the "panties in a twist" nonsense. Grow up.
_________________________________________
In the circumstances, I can only refer you to wise advice from a frequent poster on SFM to play the ball, not the man, for the purpose of avoiding hypocrisy.
The SPFL are pointing toward the expense of another Independent Inquiry (I.I.) as an important reason not to vote for another.
Did they consider expense when they instructed Deloitte to carry out the first I.I.?
It seems to me as if instructing the Deloitte inquiry was a rather desperate and poorly thought out step in what has been ongoing omnishambles from the 6th floor at Hampden. The SPFL were basically burning money on something that wasn't ever going to serve for anything but the auditors bank balance.
They really do seem to have been all over the place for some time now. In the medium-term, it might prove to be more expensive not having another Inquiry.
reasonablechap 29th April 2020 at 22:07
They really do seem to have been all over the place for some time now. In the medium-term, it might prove to be more expensive not having another Inquiry.
=======================
A simple solution would be for both parties to provide a surety upfront, and the loser coughs….That should help concentrate the minds.
As things stand there is no evidence that there is any evidence.
Corrupt official 29th April 2020 at 22:23
reasonablechap 29th April 2020 at 22:07
They really do seem to have been all over the place for some time now. In the medium-term, it might prove to be more expensive not having another Inquiry.
=======================
A simple solution would be for both parties to provide a surety upfront, and the loser coughs….That should help concentrate the minds.
===========================================
Who are "both parties" CO.
This is basically a civil war. Certain members of the SPFL (currently unknown other than Hearts, Rangers and Stranraer) would like an independent inquiry. I have no knowledge of what the terms of the inquiry are, if anyone does could you post it here.
The board of the same SPFL do not feel another independent inquiry is required. They feel it would be a waste of money.
However it is the same pot of money any fees will be paid from. This will not be clubs v SPFL. It's SPFL members v SPFL board.
Unless I am picking this up wrong.
It's great that the blog is gathering significant momentum with varied opinion. These stifled times seem to have reawakened us – the modern day last proletariats of football.
I find it astonishing that the MS(S)M have suddenly found 'digital transmission' despite their longwave 'emission' of the last 8 or so years. But in reality, we all knew that they'd already found their upper limit.
Of 42 'constituencies', the initial vote tallied 85% in favour. A landslide in democratic terms. Who could argue with that? Well, for one, the short lived club protested, as have the vast majority of Scottish 'written' hacks and most of the broadcast media, save a few.
Where was this clamour of calls for investigation when the biggest fraud in Scottish Football unfurled before our eyes and ears?
A test is considered reliable if we continue to get the same result. The question I ask myself is how many tests will they insist upon?
*'proletarians'
for those interested and much younger than Big Pink
:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Proletarians_of_Football
Bill1903
29th April 2020 at 19:40
18 15 Rate This
Makes me chuckle a bit that Doncaster is now seen as a great administrator after all these years of being public enemy number one. cool
…………….
Personally, I have little time for Mr Doncaster; but, rather than instinctively play the man, I'd question if it is really helpful to get hung up on individual personalities?
This is fairly simple for me.
1. A pandemic is the type of crisis that the football authorities should have included clearly in its contingency plans. The SPFL and SFA absolutely deserve criticism for their lack of foresight. The authorities (and not only in Scotland) must take responsibility for their indecision and the rancour that has ensued from those clubs whose actions are (quite understandably) motivated by self interest. Are any of the positions adopted by various clubs and their supporters that surprising? Depressing, yes! But, it's hardly shocking.
2. What you may find surprising, is the SPFL's Articles give the board complete power to deal with situations that are not covered by existing rules in any way it sees fit. It actually didn't need to put forward the resolution, but (probably because there was a single dissenting voice on the board) chose to try and build a consensus around the only viable option it considered available. If it was truly trying to force through its preferred option, would it have put the resolution forward at all? Since it technically didn't need to do so, why give itself the heartache?
3. Neil Doncaster is a director of SPFL Ltd. He, and every other director, is perfectly entitled to lobby the company members to support a resolution that the board had proposed. It would be a very strange situation indeed where a board recommended a course of action to its shareholders, but also had no opinion on it! That is just nonsense! Completely bonkers! Genuinely struggling to understand why this is thought to be, in any way, controversial.
4. As has been stated numerous times, the SPFL articles (and the Companies Act) provide 28 days for a written resolution to gain the requisite support. As long as the resolution had not been withdrawn, any club that initially voted against, could change its mind within those 28 days. Unless there is evidence of some criminality (in which case, it should be a matter for the police) the manner and reasoning for Dundee's change of mind is largely immaterial to its validity. It makes no difference if its original vote was considered 'cast' or not. The club supported the resolution a few days later – so well within the 28 days allowed. Unless it had chosen to withdraw the resolution, the SPFL would have had no legal authority to refuse to accept Dundee's later approval. It was clearly a resolution it wanted to get passed. Why wouldn't it wait for Dundee to make up its mind?
4. In this case, none of the critical decisions appear to have been made by Neil Doncaster. With a single notable exception, the board as a unit appears to have driven the process.
5. It is perfectly acceptable that members (and supporters) are free to question the stated aims of the board. But, if over 80% of clubs agree with a particular course of action, is it really ok that the minority try to maliciously undermine that decision? Is it ok to make false claims of improper process and potentially actionable statements on the professional integrity of individuals who are thought to have supported the majority decision?
Of course Neil Doncaster is generally worthy of a bogey man tag. It's just that, in this particular drama, I haven't seen any indication that he is the major protagonist.
reasonablechap
29th April 2020 at 22:07
4 17 Rate This
The SPFL are pointing toward the expense of another Independent Inquiry (I.I.) as an important reason not to vote for another.
Did they consider expense when they instructed Deloitte to carry out the first I.I.?
It seems to me as if instructing the Deloitte inquiry was a rather desperate and poorly thought out step in what has been ongoing omnishambles from the 6th floor at Hampden. The SPFL were basically burning money on something that wasn't ever going to serve for anything but the auditors bank balance.
They really do seem to have been all over the place for some time now. In the medium-term, it might prove to be more expensive not having another Inquiry.
………………..
Following the publication of Partick Thistle's legal opinion, the SPFL would be duty bound to ensure that the circumstances around Dundee's vote did not provide a real risk that the overall approval of the resolution could be challenged.
Don't think there was any choice, but to get its own legal opinion on the matter.
Homunculus 29th April 2020 at 23:06
I see what you are saying H, as it is essentially "some clubs" v the clubs collective body, (The SPFL). By "both parties", I meant requisitioners for, and against. as essentially it will be voted for, or against. That is the only thing that will determine the next step. There will be a next step, or won't be, subject to the EGM outcome.
If evidence is produced, the SPFL board, (Doncaster and McLelland are particularly singled out) are guilty of wrong-doing, and the clubs collectively are responsible, as they are the ones the board represent.
If however the requisitioners cannot provide evidence of wrong-doing, then the requisitioners are in the wrong, as they claim to have evidence of such. It should be up to them alone to shoulder the cost
There are laws in place governing how the members vote should be performed. The accusations are that the vote was rigged in some way, (undisclosed as yet). Rigging can only be achieved using unlawful means. If conducted lawfully, it was not rigged. Nobody would rig a vote just for the hell of it. There must be a beneficiary, or beneficiaries. It follows that Sevco claim to have evidence of that unlawful activity.
There are no costs to an inquiry, because if there is evidence of unlawful activity it is a police matter, and for the police, or its legal agency to investigate. However I recall well from the Sevco school of business that an EGM comes at considerable cost, and it is that cost to which I was alluding.
With the evidence on the table at the EGM, if unlawful activity took place, I'm sure those who voted to terminate the leagues will be altering their position and voting for police involvement, as it is impossible for 81% of the membership to benefit on the back of the other 19%…Most must have been deprived or disadvantaged in some way deceptively.
If the inquiry requisition is voted down, it really is because there is nothing to see here. The requisitioners should pick up the EGM tab.
Alternatively it can be recovered via fines added to the disrepute charges.
As to the terms of inquiry, Sevco laid out 7 points in a statement, with the 7th being pretty much a catch-all, but to my mind there are only two. Lawful or unlawful.
CO
Pretty sure that requisitioners always pay for their EGM.
Just hope they’ve paid in advance! ?
EDIT: Actually, on reflection, I think that it is only the costs related to a written resolution that are borne by the requisitioners.
As this is a (virtual) meeting, the company pays the costs.
(Apologies to JC's blood pressure in advance!)
Following Regan's breathtaking quote yesterday,
today we have Doncaster confirming that Scottish football has now officially entered The Twilight Zone, ( :spooky music: ).
From the DR today;
"…(CEO Doncaster said),
If anyone feels there has been improper behaviour then they should bring it to the public’s attention and raise it with the chairman of the SPFL for a proper investigation.
That simply hasn’t happened…"
=====
2012 simply didn't happen for Doncaster or the SPL then…?
In 1996 there was a huge, real scandal in Scottish football. The head of the SFA deliberately delayed the registration of a player for Celtic which meant the player was not available to play against Rangers in the Scottish cup semi-final. Celtic had to go down the legal route to prove this after the SFA twice said everything was above board. Did that real, legally proven to be right scandal lead to major sea change in Scottish Football governance? No it it didn't. Were the media enraged at this scandal and did they demand major sea change? No they weren't, and no they didn't. Did the media fully support the senior SFA man involved? Yes they did, even to the point of saying many times over the years the country could do with him in charge at times, and they also delivered fawning eulogies on his death. That is only one example of media double standards depending on the club involved. 2011 and 2012 have delivered several chapters alone.
I mentioned yesterday I have had the paranoid accusation thrown at me my whole life. Clearly I was never paranoid enough.
Hirsute Pursuit ….
Is it ok to make false claims of improper process and potentially actionable statements on the professional integrity of individuals who are thought to have supported the majority decision?
Of course Neil Doncaster is generally worthy of a bogey man tag. It's just that, in this particular drama, I haven't seen any indication that he is the major protagonist.
————————————————–
At this stage, I don't think you can use the word false without suitable qualification. Rangers have clearly said (via Sunday statement) that they will provide the clubs with the evidence well in advance of the GM.
Neil Doncaster has become more the Invisible Man than a bogeyman. An invisible man, who reportedly earns in the region of 350K or so, from a board who are deeply concerned with finances. An invisible man who, as CEO of the SPFL, has played a major part within the ongoing farce, when 350K worth of leadership was required.
Regardless of what happens in the next few weeks. I think numerous SPFL clubs might consider it time for a fresh face as CEO. I think many thought he wouldn't see 2013 in the role but here he is in 2020, at the helm of a league without a sponser and in the midst of a mess of their own making.
ps. wrt the Dundee vote. IIRC the legal opinion of Partick Thistle (QC and junior counsel) considered the resolution to have lapsed when the Tayside club sent the initial vote. Only legal opinion but worthy of inclusion.
reasonablechap
The SPFL are pointing toward the expense of another Independent Inquiry (I.I.) as an important reason not to vote for another.
Did they consider expense when they instructed Deloitte to carry out the first I.I.?
It seems to me as if instructing the Deloitte inquiry was a rather desperate and poorly thought out step in what has been ongoing omnishambles from the 6th floor at Hampden. The SPFL were basically burning money on something that wasn't ever going to serve for anything but the auditors bank balance.
They really do seem to have been all over the place for some time now. In the medium-term, it might prove to be more expensive not having another Inquiry.
………………..
Hirsute Pursuit
Following the publication of Partick Thistle's legal opinion, the SPFL would be duty bound to ensure that the circumstances around Dundee's vote did not provide a real risk that the overall approval of the resolution could be challenged.
Don't think there was any choice, but to get its own legal opinion on the matter.
———————-
In recent communications, the SPFL have repeatedly pointed to finance as a major factor to consider when faced with a decision/vote on whether to go for an Independent Inquiry or not.
I agree that clarity is required, the Deloitte Inquiry was so narrow in scope that it provided more questions than answers.
I would have thought that in frugal times, the SPFL lawyer, Rod McKenzie was more than capable of coming up with what were the simplistic findings of Deloitte.
At that point, the clubs didn't know of or expect an Independent Iquiry. IMO the Deloitte move seemed to be more a tactic to take some heat out of the ongoing situation, at least in the eyes of member clubs. It didn't work.
Corrupt Official
I wonder if your username allied to your obviously considered opinions suggest where this all might be heading towards. Is it co-incidence that Doncaster was at the SPL when you first used it on here?
(disclaimer: the above is a joke)
IMO there is already a big enough mess out there for SPFL clubs to think very carefully about the positions of those at the top of the board further down the line, when the time is right.
However, I agree that one way or the other, the evidence now plays a pivotal role in the next Act and potentially how the whole thing might rumble on.
Recent days have seen the SPFL prepare the ground for a response to when the evidence is revealed. Now it's probably about lobbying clubs one by one and trying to get commitments ahead of the clubs receiving the dossier.
Could this be the final throw of the dice for sevco a scorched earth battle plan to take down as many clubs as possible sure seems like it.
Just going back to Maclennan’s Q&A.
the mystery club Over 7 years ago where memories seem strangely hazy, and the apparent certainty with regards to Gretna….why in the former case was it necessary to predicate the loan on a wealthy guarantor and in the latter case we managed to lose money on it (which to be fair probably explains the need for the guarantor in the former case I mentioned)
Why were we extending more than the likely end of season fee payment which both clubs were likely to receive? I’m not aware of any creditor stupid enough to send the gross (the full fee payment) to an insolvent recipient on nothing more than a promise of getting an interim loan paid back? You just send the net at the end Shirley?
Paddy Malarky
I think most fans of the diddy clubs view CFC and TRFC as two cheeks of the same rse , shtt*ng down on the rest of us from the top of the table , the only difference season to season is which sits higher . We are tolerated only because they couldn’t survive without a competition but are still viewed with contempt …..
—————————————————-
From a business perspective (IMO)
Both big clubs need each other
Both big clubs need provincial clubs
Provincial clubs need big clubs
A governing body needs them all.
What happens if one or both of the big clubs leave the league (for whatever reason) is very significant downsizing.
.
ps. I apoligize for the dawn bombardment (not a howitzer!) but I blame lockdown.
https://twitter.com/record_sport/status/1255736137357746177?s=21
The good ol’ Daily Record picking sides and framing the current SPFL dispute as a revolt. It’s dèja vue all over again.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/neil-doncasters-explosive-qa-keith-21948878
Neil Doncaster's explosive Q&A with Keith Jackson as SPFL chief takes on Scottish football's biggest issues
Doncaster defends his actions while calling on the Ibrox club to end the feud which he admits is bringing shame on the Scottish game
Ex Ludo
The good ol’ Daily Record picking sides and framing the current SPFL dispute as a revolt. It’s dèja vue all over again.
——————————————-
The DR is the choice of the SPFL for obvious reasons.
Keith Jackson, who for years has been effectively for hire in a role of rent-a-pen for any individual, club or governing body that become a useful source, has recently been batting for the SPFL. Whilst the publication have been pushing the customary a tit for tat, clickbait battle further down the page.
reasonablechap
My user name was chosen to reflect the fact that I have human frailties and will get things wrong at times!
I am staggered at the thought that any reasonable person could consider Keith Jackson is batting for the SPFL!
Am I wrong on this occasion?
It’s guaranteed that there is going to be a huge dung pile of nonsense written and said across the SMSM – between now and the 12th May – as the SPFL and TRFC compete to hijack the narrative for their own purposes.
And all this proves – yet again – is that the standard of Scottish football governance is shockingly poor.
The fans have known this for many years: why don’t the clubs listen and take action to improve how Hampden operates?
‘reasonablechap 30th April 2020 at 08:51
However, I agree that one way or the other, the evidence now plays a pivotal role in the next Act and potentially how the whole thing might rumble on.
Recent days have seen the SPFL prepare the ground for a response to when the evidence is revealed. Now it’s probably about lobbying clubs one by one and trying to get commitments ahead of the clubs receiving the dossier…’
######################
Currently there is no ‘evidence’ of wrong-doing in the public domain: what there are, however, are airy-fairy, non-specific allegations about certain individuals (apparently acting singularly & in concert – oops!) which require to be substantiated.
Once the allegations are made public & proved to have substance, then they become evidence. Until then, it’s simply gossip & handy for filling column inches at this difficult time.
Frankly, I find it incredible that any sporting organisation would allow its board-members to be traduced by an active member-club in the way the SPFL board currently is by TRFC’s innuendo.
For the record I don't have any evidence to suggest the SPFL board were involved in bullying or the likes. However it is clear that some of the stakeholders have implied there was and it is for them to produce evidence. Even if not bullying or coercion Others have indicated they felt incredibly pressured given the request for a 'false' 5:00pm deadline on Good Friday.
What I am certain of now is that regardless of what the rules say re the 28 days allowed to return a vote the SPFL board were on a mission to get cash delivered to the lower league clubs.
IMHO they did so in a cack-handed and poorly managed manner that, despite what we are being fed, did not cover various scenarios and potential outcomes. At the end of the day it has resulted in a handful of clubs being disadvantaged in terms of not being able to define their destiny on the pitch.
In the event of the current season not being played out the impact on these teams has been recognised as an after thought.
Now we have men who normally operate in the shadows suddenly opening up to daily Q&A sessions.
I fully support those who are being accused of wrong doing to go on the offensive to protect their reputations but perhaps if they had been more open and transparent (and again IMHO competent) with regard to the running of Scottish Football over many years, fans would be less suspicious regards their behaviour.
T'Rangers may see something more sinister but I just see another chapter in a story of incompetence in the handling of serious matters that affect our game.
reasonablechap
30th April 2020 at 07:37
8 9 Rate This
Hirsute Pursuit ….
Is it ok to make false claims of improper process and potentially actionable statements on the professional integrity of individuals who are thought to have supported the majority decision?
Of course Neil Doncaster is generally worthy of a bogey man tag. It’s just that, in this particular drama, I haven’t seen any indication that he is the major protagonist.
————————————————–
At this stage, I don’t think you can use the word false without suitable qualification. Rangers have clearly said (via Sunday statement) that they will provide the clubs with the evidence well in advance of the GM.
Neil Doncaster has become more the Invisible Man than a bogeyman. An invisible man, who reportedly earns in the region of 350K or so, from a board who are deeply concerned with finances. An invisible man who, as CEO of the SPFL, has played a major part within the ongoing farce, when 350K worth of leadership was required.
Regardless of what happens in the next few weeks. I think numerous SPFL clubs might consider it time for a fresh face as CEO. I think many thought he wouldn’t see 2013 in the role but here he is in 2020, at the helm of a league without a sponser and in the midst of a mess of their own making.
ps. wrt the Dundee vote. IIRC the legal opinion of Partick Thistle (QC and junior counsel) considered the resolution to have lapsed when the Tayside club sent the initial vote. Only legal opinion but worthy of inclusion.
…………………..
It seems, from any calm, sensible, dispassionate view of the current situation, that TRFC are doing no more than desperately rabble rousing to the hard of thinking.
In the past 8 years – in fact even prior to its official inception – various false claims of injustice of one sort or another have been used as marketing devices to rally the raging hordes. Paradoxically, coping with reality appears to be much more problematic than creating mayhem for itself and everyone around it.
This rampaging framing of its own preferred existence has worked well for the insecure child-club in the past. Why, when reality is currently so difficult, would we expect the sale of season tickets not to be accompanied by a frenzy of paranoid false accusations.
We can watch and be witnesses to its madness. We would all do well not to be consumed by it.
O, how the hypocritical jackals of the SMSM are crawling out of the woodwork!
That’s now 4 of them whose pieces I’ve now read. Each of them squeals like a stuck pig, shouting ‘foul’ on the merest unsupported allegation of a suspicion that the SPFL may have got something wrong, and perhaps may have deliberately got something wrong.
For a decade at least these hypocritical purveyors of untruths were silent about, and by their silence were supportive of the most deceitful football club that has ever cheated Scottish Football (and the taxpayer), and were too complicit or too afraid to ask hard questions of the majority shareholder of that club (may his fortunes decline)
Further, for the last 8 years ‘these people‘ ( and I have no need to ask who they are, Ally!) have helped propagate in conjunction with the SPFL and SFA the most ridiculously absurd lie, namely, that TRFC is the same club as that rotten, deceitful club, then known as RFC of 1872 and now languishing in Liquidation awaiting complete and utter dissolution as any kind of entity, but deceitfully renamed RFC 2012 to con people)
That support enabled the very SPFL against which they are now venting their spleen to betray the very concept of Sporting Integrity in an utterly inexcusable way and for basest of reasons.
There was no pandemic, no threatened imminent collapse of the whole economic structure of the nation, never mind of Scottish Football, no dire emergency of any kind as a possible excuse when the SMSM supported by their own lies the nonsense of the 5-Way Agreement.
Put alongside the sheer scale of the deceit attaching to the actions of the SPL,the SFL and the SFA in defence of ‘Rangers’ up to 2012, and in support since then of the living lie that is TRFC any ‘mistake’ over the ‘vote’ even if it were as calculatedly deliberate as those actions were, is of relative insignificance in the scale of wrongdoing.
Truth is indivisible, certainly: and it is right that in the matter of the ‘vote’ the truth should be established.
But the canting hypocrisy of the SMSM rat pack is really hard to stomach.
May their laptops freeze permanently and their posings as pseudojournalists speedily come to an end as finally, completely and as dishonourably as that of the football club formerly known as RFC of 1872.
TRFC have gone for broke this season to stop 9iar and have failed. The recent explosion of sound and fury is no more than an attempt to create enough confusion to allow their most benighted fans to claim that this title is "tainted" and so 9, 10, 11 iar didn't happen. It's pure last ditch dog in the manger stuff.
In this they have seized on an acorn of truth, in the Partick Thistle relegation issue which they are now furiously watering and bombarding with uv light in the hope that it will grow into a plausibly large tree before the axe falls. The SMSM are manning the hoses and changing the bulbs.
What will the SPFL Members do?
I might also say that I have wanted to see the back of Doncaster and McKenzie since 2012 in the case of the former and subsequently for the latter. I take EJ's point made earlier about football fans wanting rid of the administrators. With regard to the current mess, I doubt if Doncaster and McKenzies's modus operandum has changed either, so I can understand what appear to be disgruntled mutterings from other clubs. As things stand, I am consigned in lockdown to sitting back and, hopefully, watching the dog mortally wounding the hand that bred it, just as the dagger is plunged into the Hound's heart.
Rangers should put up or shut up . The SFA should step in with a " bringing the game into disrepute" charge. This would not be tolerated in any other football association , Once again showing up the SFAs lack of ability, intelligence, cowardice ( insert your own adjective) to run our game. If Rangers truly had damning evidence it would have been released through ttheir pals in print media and their friends at the BBC long long ago . The SPFL have been too generous to them . They should have told them you have 48 hrs to produce your so called evidence if none is forth coming then Bye Bye .
reasonablechap 30th April 2020 at 08:51 4 4
Corrupt Official I wonder if your username allied to your obviously considered opinions suggest where this all might be heading towards. Is it co-incidence that Doncaster was at the SPL when you first used it on here? angry (disclaimer: the above is a joke)
========================
I didn't have Doncaster particularly in mind, but it is Campbell Ogilvie's initials. Now there is a crook if ever I saw one. We have all observed how they handle "Inquiries", and that is why I consider that if Sevco have evidence of unlawful action it must be a police matter.
If nothing unlawful took place, it's a non-runner. It's only right the requisitioners should be made to cough under such circumstances…..Along with damages.
However as I stated previously, there is no evidence of any evidence. Until there is, it's only paper-talk and gumbumping with dubious motivations……Punishable motivations.
Just a thought as another payday is upon us – do any of our more learned contributors know if sevco would qualify for one of the Government backed loans that are available to companies suffering hardship during the lockdown?
https://twitter.com/thetributeact/status/1255651788499238912?s=21
Some thoughts from a Celtic facing twitter account (if that’s still ok on here?)
Macfurgly @13.10
Im with you regarding Doncaster . Not at the moment though , all clubs need to go into survival mode .I would dearly love after this is all over , level heads sit round a great big table and put in place a competent SPFL and SFA fit for the purpose of a modern game without all the baggage that the SFA particularly carry. It cannot be filled with people who turn a blind eye to a certain clubs wrong doings .And it must have a proper rule book, not a rule book drafted by highly paid lawyers allowing for an "out" if the authorities dont feel like applying the rules….. A boy can dream
The SPFL has quietly made the amendments to their Rules and Regulations in accordance with what the 42 clubs voted on in the written resolution (I’m not aware of having read the full resolution).
https://spfl.co.uk/pages/rules-and-regulations
The changes relating to the end of the season can be found in paragraphs C7a (p31-32), C53 (p44-49) and Appendix 3 (p116-118).
I had understood that the decision and means to end the season only applied to tiers 2-4 of the pyramid, and that it was still open for the SPFL Board to end the premiership season as they saw fit, depending on the prevailing circumstances at a later point in time.
If I’ve understood the rule changes correctly, the SPFL Board has left themselves with only the binary choice of ending the Premiership by playing the season to a conclusion, or ending the season early and applying exactly the same criteria as were applied to the other tiers.
It probably won’t make any difference to the final determination, but I hadn’t appreciated that the SPFL Board had limited the future options available to them.
Separately, decisions on who will participate in next season’s UEFA competitions also appear to have been agreed with the SFA, based on league positions only, with no consideration being given to concluding the Scottish Cup.
easyJambo 30th April 2020 at 13:32
'….The SPFL has quietly made the amendments to their Rules and Regulations'
'"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"Quietly is the word", eJ.
Last night I was looking up what the rules were in relation to gate-sharing in league games ( a propos the posts about 'more equitable 'distribution) and I noticed the new rules you mention. I went straight back to the 'News' bit of the SPFL website, and found not a cheep!
What is it with folk who have websites that are open to the public with headings like 'latest news' but who do not post the 'latest news'?
Self -defeating in terms of PR and openness!
gerrybhoy67 30th April 2020 at 13:20
Just a thought as another payday is upon us – do any of our more learned contributors know if sevco would qualify for one of the Government backed loans that are available to companies suffering hardship during the lockdown?
==================================
I believe staff have been furloughed, and players and management have accepted a 3 month wage deferral, with conditions unknown attached.
reasonablechap 30th April 2020 at 09:13
To quote John Mc Enroe , " You cannot be serious ! " .
In my opinion , only one of the top two clubs is reliant on the other .
How are you defining provincial ? Partick Thistle are hardly a provincial club – OTIG . Outwith the Capital conurbation ? Outwith any of our seven cities ? Diddy clubs ?
The clubs outside the top two will get by , especially if we cut out the money wasted on marquee international transfers
. Most find a way of living within their means , the others die .
The governing bodies are stuck with them all , whether they need them or not . If either or both of the big two were to leave , the stature and prestige of the leagues would greatly diminish , along with income and support , and there would be a new landscape with the number of clubs greatly reduced . I dare say that there have been papers prepared that envisage football being played in Scotland with far fewer clubs , so the authorities would have a head start . It may even be that that the big two are too high maintenance for a country with our population with a declining interest in football as a spectator sport .
Unfortunately , a large number of supporters of the premier club and its revenant sidekick hold views similar to yours . Take out the big two and you get a diminished product and probably a long, slow lingering death . Take out the other forty clubs and there is no product . The only way to keep it all together is to find a system that acknowledges that all clubs have needs and aspirations ,and that provides an equitable , not perfect , solution . I honestly fear , though , that football as we knew it has changed permanently because of the virus , and the immediate future may not be too rosy .
If the authorities need help to envisage football played with supporters observing social distancing , a couple of pictures of the Jackie Husband for our most recent games might be of help .
https://twitter.com/lequipe/status/1255816737246687232?s=21
Ooh la la.
Thanks Cluster One I was aware of the furlough wages claim but I think there are loans available of up to 25% of the company turnover which would provide approximately 8 to 10 million pounds
Best Tweet of the day for me with regards Sevco Tantram.
pat kelly
@patkelly19
·
1h
Those accustomed to privilege may feel that equality is oppression
gerrybhoy67 30th April 2020 at 14:45
. I assume you mean some sort of government loan?. I can say Sevco will not be offered a credit line from a bank,…any bank, and all available assets are already securitised. It's highly doubtful Sevco would pass any form of means tests applied, and I don't think they can do business on a handshake anymore. Current legal wrangles point to the fact that even contractual business is problematic. Other than that Gerry, I can't be more definitive, but the weather report made no mention of Hell freezing over any time soon.
Thanks Cluster One I was just thinking it may have been an escape route
Companies with a turnover in excess of £45m can apply for commercial loans of up to £25m through the government loan guarantee scheme.
The ten banks taking part in this scheme are:
Bank of Scotland, Barclays, Clydesdale Bank & Yorkshire Bank, Danske Bank, HSBC, Lloyds Bank, NatWest, Santander, RBS and Ulster Bank.
The good news for the Ibrox club is that its last audited accounts show revenue of £53m.
However, there must be a serious question over whether or not RIFC/TRFC can, with its recent poor record of corporate governance, persuade one of them to take them on as a client.
Just to add to my last comment…
A few days ago the government increased (from 80% to 100%) its guarantee on the loan scheme for small businesses.
For a business the size of RIFC/TRFC, the guarantee remains at 80%. Meaning, of course, that 20% of any loan advanced, would be at the sole risk of the lender.
What bank would be prepared to risk up to £5m that such a loan might be written off through an insolvency event – either now or over the next few years?
Does the Ibrox club have a history of generating profits (in 'normal' times) that could be used to repay such a loan?
Perhaps it could persuade the lender to convert its 'investment' to equity!
easyJambo 30th April 2020 at 13:32
So EJ if what you say is true then am I correct in saying that, if the winning the Scottish Cup no longer counts to the fourth Euro slot, in the likely event of Celtic being awarded the Premiership, Aberdeen will be granted entry to Europe and Hibs will be added to the teams unable to define their own destiny on the field of play.
Hearts are then on course to suffer a double whammy of relegation and being unable to potentially gain a Euro slot on the field of play.
Once again no sight of any apologies or recognition by the footballing authorities that at least two of the four semi-finalists are being hard done by regardless of whether the cup is played out or not.
wottpi 30th April 2020 at 16:03
========================
The UEFA place granted to the cup winners (if they have not also qualified for the CL), currently gives them Scotland’s second ranking place, meaning that they would start in EL Qualifying Round 2, rather than EL QR 1 in next season’s competition (subject to UEFA not moving the goalposts).
As things stand, Celtic will start in CL QR1, Rangers gains by starting in EL QR2 and Motherwell and Aberdeen will start in EL QR1. Aberdeen gains by having an EL place confirmed but misses out on the chance of starting a round later, while Hibs and Hearts miss out on the chance of participating at all.
Perhaps the SFA will compensate Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts for the missed or lessened opportunities.
Nah, just scrub that last remark. It isn’t going to happen.
What might be a fair question to those who have expressed a desire to complete the season, if at all possible, by the end of July. If there was just a one or two week window, i.e. not enough to complete the league programme, then should the cup semi finals and finals be played instead?
I know that won’t happen either.
Ex Ludo 30th April 2020 at 13:20
https://twitter.com/thetributeact/status/1255651788499238912?s=21
Some thoughts from a Celtic facing twitter account (if that’s still ok on here?)
=========================================
I pointed this wording ("entitled" rather than "shall") and the potential consequences out at the time – the word chancers came to mind.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
easyjambo 16.37
——————————————
There has been a silence regarding what might happen re the cup. Presumably this is a matter for the SFA? Seems to me 3 games should not be too difficult to manage.
This is brilliant from Forbes. 'That it makes them look silly to everyone else doesn’t really matter so long as Rangers fans keep buying season tickets and merchandise.' Full article:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikemeehallwood/2020/04/30/scottish-footballs-covid-19-soap-opera-continues-as-rangers-demand-corruption-investigation-but-refuse-to-produce-evidence-of-spfl-wrongdoing/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
https://twitter.com/rpmcomo/status/1255867507442843649?s=21
And Brexit hasn’t gone away you know!
Jingso
Currently there is no ‘evidence’ of wrong-doing in the public domain: what there are, however, are airy-fairy, non-specific allegations about certain individuals (apparently acting singularly & in concert – oops!) which require to be substantiated.
Once the allegations are made public & proved to have substance, then they become evidence. Until then, it’s simply gossip & handy for filling column inches at this difficult time.
Frankly, I find it incredible that any sporting organisation would allow its board-members to be traduced by an active member-club in the way the SPFL board currently is by TRFC’s innuendo.
————————————–
I didn't say the evidence was yet in the public domain.
The evidence isn't gossip or rumour. A member club of the SPFL has stated that they possess evidence and intend to distribute it to all the other 41 clubs well in advance of the GM.
Unless the meeting was called off prior o the evidence being presented, the more important question of what is it, will be coming along soon.
bordersdon 30th April 2020 at 17:27
There has been a silence regarding what might happen re the cup. Presumably this is a matter for the SFA? Seems to me 3 games should not be too difficult to manage.
=====================
All noises seemed to indicate the semi-finals and final being the curtain raiser to the new season, which of course right now would hinge on a number of factors if that was to be the case.
Hirsute Pursuit
It seems, from any calm, sensible, dispassionate view of the current situation, that TRFC are doing no more than desperately rabble rousing to the hard of thinking.
In the past 8 years – in fact even prior to its official inception – various false claims of injustice of one sort or another have been used as marketing devices to rally the raging hordes. Paradoxically, coping with reality appears to be much more problematic than creating mayhem for itself and everyone around it.
This rampaging framing of its own preferred existence has worked well for the insecure child-club in the past. Why, when reality is currently so difficult, would we expect the sale of season tickets not to be accompanied by a frenzy of paranoid false accusations.
We can watch and be witnesses to its madness. We would all do well not to be consumed by it.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
A dispassionate view of the current situation wouldn’t have chosen some of the language used above and I still say, as per the post to which your post replied to, that it is too early to state “false” without suitable qualification.
That said, I can certainly understand the scepticism.
What reasons may make this time different ?
However, if the clubs were to vote against the resolution despite of compelling evidence being produced. Then yes, it would be used as a marketing tool.
I’ll stop there regards talking about the evidence until we know what it is.
Wow just wow.
HP
However, if the clubs were to vote against the resolution despite of compelling evidence being produced. Then yes, it would be used as a marketing tool.
———————————————————————-
Perception is everything in such matters. What might seem inconsequential to others will almost certainly be "compelling" to the WATP crowd?
Yet another staggering quote: this gem extracted From The Sun today;
“The SPFL had appointed Deloitte for an internal inquiry and surprise, surprise there was no wrongdoing.
If they are going to have an inquiry it needs to be an independent one.
It should happen because it is as if they have something to hide.”
=========
This quote was no doubt said with a straight face – and is attributed to none other than the ex-cheeky chappie himself:
Alistair “Who are these people?!” McCoist!
Mibbees it’s just me?
Was I living in a parallel universe in 2012?
I think I should be told…
reasonablechap
30th April 2020 at 18:07
…………….
Let me make a couple of fairly obvious predictions.
When the much anticipated dossier is released, there will be a great gnashing of teeth from a very vocal minority. Alongside the usual suspects from the SMSM, they will claim that the ‘evidence’ within proves, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the vote to finalise positions was defective. It will point to the nefarious forces at work to the detriment of Rangers[sic] and the benefit of its ‘Old Firm’ rival Celtic.
The provenance of the specific allegations won’t really matter. The logic or accuracy of what is claimed will be lost to the idea that the club is defending itself and it’s supporters from the dark ‘hidden forces’ at work.
The other clubs will look at what has been presented, collectively shrug their shoulders, decide that it should go no further and the resolution will be lost by a very large majority. The perceived sense of injustice and outrage from Ibrox will be off the scale.
Meantime, season tickets will go on sale at Ibrox.
Have I missed anything?
May I ask, when did Reasonable Chap start posting? Not a name I recall seeing until very recently.
‘reasonablechap 30th April 2020 at 17:33
I didn’t say the evidence was yet in the public domain.
The evidence isn’t gossip or rumour. A member club of the SPFL has stated that they possess evidence and intend to distribute it to all the other 41 clubs well in advance of the GM.
Unless the meeting was called off prior o the evidence being presented, the more important question of what is it, will be coming along soon.’
##############################
I’ll accept that I could have worded my post of 1129hrs in a slightly better way.
However, currently the only people who say that they have ‘evidence’ is a party whose position is one of blatant self-interest. If this ‘evidence’ is so damning, they should present it immediately: heck, the people they allege are corrupt are still in post & still making decisions. Until such time as the ‘evidence’ is examined by a reputable third-party (who would probably be the policewoman of the Scottish game, the SFA Compliance Officer, but that likely wouldn’t be acceptable to TRFC, would it?) & found to have standing it’s just an unsubstantiated allegation. As others have written, TRFC really need to ‘put up or shut up’.
You say TRFC’s ‘evidence’ isn’t ‘gossip or rumour’. How can you decide that without knowing what the ‘evidence’ is? Do you know what this much-vaunted ‘evidence’ is? Are you simply accepting the (RRM) word of Robertson & Park.
nawlite 30th April 2020 @ 19:29:
I think he's an old steer getting a new lease of life on a different turn-pike…
borderson
Perception is everything in such matters. What might seem inconsequential to others will almost certainly be "compelling" to the WATP crowd?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Perception amongst all fans will be through tribal filters, of course ! That goes for both sides.
The SPFL will of course have their reaction ready (various degrees of dismissal/deniel).
However, what matters is objective legal opinion. If considered a damp squib then the Rangers support won't be happy with their own club, believe me. If people think at this juncture and in these particular set of circumstances that such a siege mentality will give desired results, they are wrong.
My personal guess at this stage is that the vote will be lost, that the evidence will be compelling enough to take to court and that there will be a reasonable prospect of success. SPFL offical(s) will resign/move-on prior to any action.
Now the prediction is out
, I really am going to stop talking abot the dossier until we have it to hand.
Good night
Mmm, that's where my mind is going too JJ.
HirsutePursuit 30th April 2020 at 15:24
I’ve had a wee look at
https://www.british-business-bank.co.uk/ourpartners/coronavirus-business-interruption-loan-scheme-cbils-2/for-businesses-and-advisors/
Especially
WHO IS ELIGIBLE
Your business must:
I must say that any reasonable person would have deduced that we were being steered in a particular direction early on in this recent flood of interventions.
Steven Gerrard has now written a message to fans …………
https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/a-message-from-steven-gerrard/
……. complete with the obligatory sales pitch for Season Tickets
"This current crisis has created unprecedented challenges. Players and senior staff have shown their loyalty to our club in recent weeks, and now we want to reward you for your loyalty to us. I am therefore delighted we have frozen the price of season tickets and have extended the deadline for applications."
Reasonablechap
I’ll stop there regards talking about the evidence until we know what it is.
————————————————————————
Very wise, and reasonable.
The full thing is awesome EJ
What percentage of it do you think Steven Gerrard wrote, or even read.
Thursday, 30 April 2020, 20:00
by Steven Gerrard
THANK you for your incredible backing in season 2019/20 so far. Your loyalty will never be taken for granted and we are desperate to reward you for that loyalty.
These times are unlike any we have witnessed before. The UK faces challenges never experienced in our generation, certainly since the Second World War.
Our city of Glasgow is a proper football city, and Rangers are a proper football club. I grew up in a resilient city. I played football in a resilient city. I am now proud to manage in a resilient city.
Football makes a city, Rangers makes Glasgow.
I know nothing but football clubs who have faced down periods of incredible difficulty, but like our cities, because of your support, we will come through again, stronger than before.
That is what makes us who we are. We fight back to be even stronger when times are hard. Rangers gives us all something to rally around – that is why I am here.
I have experienced many cauldron-like atmospheres. Ibrox is a proper football stadium and your support makes all the difference.
I need only take myself back to our Europa League win over Braga. Our players delivered on that night, but it was your backing which drove them on from 2-0 down. That is proper football.
There are few grounds in world football capable of doing that. Ibrox is very much one of them and we need that backing as Rangers is nothing without you. It really is one special place and I am absolutely sure that you, just the same as I, cannot wait to be back there.
This current crisis has created unprecedented challenges. Players and senior staff have shown their loyalty to our club in recent weeks, and now we want to reward you for your loyalty to us. I am therefore delighted we have frozen the price of season tickets and have extended the deadline for applications.
There are more chapters to be written in our story. We can only do that together.
We will be ready for whatever challenges come our way in season 2020/21, whenever that begins.
We need you to be ready too.
Steven Gerrard
HirsutePursuit 30th April 2020 at 15:24
I’ve had a wee look at
https://www.british-business-bank.co.uk/ourpartners/coronavirus-business-interruption-loan-scheme-cbils-2/for-businesses-and-advisors/
Especially
WHO IS ELIGIBLE
Your business must:
JC/HP, I have been monitoring the various schemes for business reasons but also with an eye on how an organisation without access to lending facilities, a loss last year of £11m and this statement in the accounts might fare in any application :
“The Board acknowledge that the uncertainty over the level of additional funds that will be required and a lack of a binding debt facility indicate that a material uncertainty exists which may cast doubt over the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern and therefore its ability to realise its assets and discharge its liabilities in the normal course of business.”
In such an organisation’s position it is not a loan application that I would feel optimistic about submitting….
Scottish Football needs a strong balance sheet.
HirsutePursuit 30th April 2020 at 18:57
Have I missed anything?
============
Just the disrepute charges HP….It’s hard to see that they can reject the requisition without applying the charges…..It will come back to bite them if they don’t bring closure. Otherwise I think your crystal ball is twinkling brightly. Nial might disagree though.
ps. Donald Findlay is on @BBCScotNine tonight for those who use their services.
Sorry if I have missed it.
Has anyone seen the resolution which is being put to the SPFL members at the EGM.
Also, will they have 28 days post the meeting to support it, on the basis that if they don't they simply need to do nothing and if it does not reach 75% it will fail.
Jingso.Jimsie 30th April 2020 at 19:44
I'll second that JJ.
Homunculus
30th April 2020 at 20:47
0 0 Rate This
…….
28 days apply to written resolutions only.
Assuming that the requisitioners have submitted a valid resolution, it will be decided on the day.
I'm surprised that, if it exists (I assume it does), it hasn't been made public yet.
gerrybhoy67 30th April 2020 at 14:45
7
1
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Thanks Cluster One I was aware
…………..
I don’t believe i gave an answer, you may be getting your CO’s mixed up
JC
I think the eligibility criteria you quote are from pre-covid days.
The page that would be relevant for TRFC would be:
https://www.british-business-bank.co.uk/ourpartners/coronavirus-business-interruption-loan-schemes/clbils/clbils-for-businesses-and-advisors/
HP – from that scheme :
“Have a borrowing proposal which the lender would consider viable, were it not for the current pandemic, and for which the lender believes the provision of finance will enable the business to trade out of any short-term to medium-term difficulty”
“For facilities above £250,000, personal guarantees may still be required, but claims cannot exceed 20% of losses after all other recoveries have been applied.”
Mmmm…..
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
PS Still nae interims.
Redlichtie
Perhaps Mr Park could use his business assets as security?
…oh wait!
Last week I wrote this:
I hope they haven't taken my prediction as the basis of TRFC's business plan!
Rangers Football Club (@RangersFC) Tweeted: 01.05.20 | #MyGers https://t.co/Jlk1GDtnCd https://twitter.com/RangersFC/status/1255912299010940928?s=20
HirsutePursuit 30th April 2020 at 21:11
'..I think the eligibility criteria you quote are from pre-covid days.'
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Very happy to be corrected, HP: thanks.
HirsutePursuit 30th April 2020 at 21:06
Got you, thanks for that.
Presumably there is a time limit before the meeting, to give people time to consider things.
SPL chase Rangers EBT inquiry legal costs. Oldco Rangers were fined £250,000 in February after being found guilty of breaching SPL rules relating to payments issued through their Employee Benefit Trust scheme from 2000 to 2011.
The costs of the probe are reported to be up to £500,000.
Rangers say it is “ridiculous” to expect them to foot the bill.
The inquiry lasted almost a year and the verdict was delivered by an independent commission, led by judge Lord Nimmo Smith and featuring two QCs.
A statement from the league read: “There has been a routine application for costs given that the case was successfully pursued by the SPL.”
The SPL would not expand on whether they were pursuing the newco Rangers for costs but they would have no chance of securing any from oldco Rangers, which is in liquidation.
………………..
I can’t remember if the costs were ever paid. the fine was recouped using the offset rule.
Lost my mother today. In her late 80s, another victim of the virus she caught in hospital. Not good to shoot from the hip, but had this vile Tory govt done their job in the interests of the many, she’d still be around to give me dogs abuse for another few years. Sleep tight Ma.
…………
condolences to one of our own.
I am honestly stumped how the clubs are going to deal with the sale of season tickets/books.
So many unknowns.
-Therefore, how many home matches?
-What will the ground capacity be with ‘distancing’?
=Will STs be valid for every home match or eg. alternative games in order to share out if reduced capacity?
So sorry for your loss Cluster……. Heartfelt condolences. x
Corrupt official 30th April 2020 at 21:5
…………
Not me CO, Big Pink i believe.
sorry if my message came across wrong
Apologies C . And to you BP. Genuinely sorry for both the misunderstanding and your Ma's passing.
easyJambo 30th April 2020 at 20:22
'.Steven Gerrard has now written a message to fans ..'
Homunculus 30th April 2020 at 20:29
'..What percentage of it do you think Steven Gerrard wrote, or even read. '
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
There is little likelihood, I would say, that Gerrard penned that letter himself, and that's not a meant to be an insulting-to-Gerrard observation: his gifts lay in another sphere (with another 'sphere', indeed!) entirely.
With the stress on 'loyalty', 'readiness', civic contribution ('Rangers makes Glasgow') and the wee reference to the 'UK', it strikes many of the regular emotional chords and will play well, especially with the 'decent' TRFC supporters and potential season-book purchasers.
One thing very noticeable by its absence is the tone of tub-thumping aggression.
I hope that that is not just because the letter was to be signed by Gerrard, and that it signals that the PR man at Ibrox might have begun to learn that quiet, genuine dignity and subtlety of expression while it may not garner you additional friends might help stop you making enemies!
( The letter could, of course, have been better structured, to avoid the rambling and disjointed sequencing of concepts and redundant repetition. If I were to mark it as an effort by a Higher English candidate in exam conditions, I'd give it a bare 'pass' by reference to the standards obtaining in 1960!)
An old episode of the American sci-fi series The Twilight Zone has been brought forward in my thoughts due to the current circumstances in Scottish football. In the episode in question a new sort of shop opens up in a small town and it had an interesting business model,it paid people a fee in exchange for a memory,the memory would be extracted by machine. At first the locals loved it, strapped into a strange looking contraption for five painless minutes then off they went with dollars to spend. Thing was it all felt too easy and tragically the locals realized one by one that by given away their memories they had in fact given away themselves. What’s this got to do with Scottish football,Scottish society?
In February 2012 it was announced that Rangers football club had went into administration. There followed in Scotland daily feverish reporting on the subject of Rangers’ future,people may recall for instance Chick Young’s Govan Utd talk almost nightly on BBC Sportsound.Of course on here we know how the story ended,liquidation.
Rangers fans find those five months mentally unacceptable and have taken it seems all the memories they have of that time and thrown them away.They have,unlike the poor folks in small town America,still to realise that by throwing away part of our memory bank we throw away a part of ourselves. Things in reality as a consequence of memory depletion fail to make sense to Rangers fans anymore,they are suffering from,due to their own belief system,a form of dementia,they are almost the dictionary definition of demented.Dementia patients tragically can no longer hold short memories sequentially, this for instance can lead to a sufferer being in a scenario where they have put their purse in the kitchen drawer for safe- keeping .If no memory of this act is logged and only the initial memory of the purse being on the fireplace remains trouble ensues. Children can easily find themselves standing in their mother’s living-room having to fight off genuine felt accusations of theft where the purses absence from the fireplace is exhibit A. This scenario has already happened here in Scotland,Jim Spence argued with the demented memory of the Rangers’,support and paid the price. This is only ever going to get worse, dementia only ever does.
Thanks for the condolences CO and CO.
My mum’s passing had been a while coming, but you’re never ready. Not been affected by death in the immediate family for over thirty years, so I’m not at all practiced. I am grateful for the support I’ve had from relatives and friends. Times like these you realise who those friends are.
Hopefully I’ll be back to full function in the next few days.
John
misterlightbulbjoke 30th April 2020 at 22:59
'.If no memory of this act is logged and only the initial memory of the purse being on the fireplace remains trouble ensues'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Yes.
The SMSM most decidedly did not log the memory of Liquidation; Traynor, for one, made either a liar or a complete farce of himself with self-contradictory reporting, and the other jackals in the SMSM and BBC [one or two honourable exceptions!] drugged on succulent lamb from an early age, piled in in support.
Whit? The most successful club in world football liquidated? Couldnae, and therefore didnae happen!
Was there ever such a parcel of rogues as those lying journalists and their even more contemptible editors ( now pleading for us to subscribe online to their dishonest publications!)?
Honest to God!
Big Pink 30th April 2020 at 23:23
‘.Thanks for the condolences CO and CO.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
BP, please accept my heartfelt condolences on the death of the mother who bore you.
Mammy, mum, mother…maw… We’ve all had one as and at the very core of our being.
And those of us, like you now ,who have lost the woman who brought us to life, have an understanding of how significant our mothers were as being the first person, and perhaps the only person, who loved us unconditionally.
God be with your mum.
Big Pink
30th April 2020 at 23:23
…………..
Deepest condolences John. It is never easy dealing with the loss of those closest to us.
Everyone, especially the elderly, our NHS and our care staff, have been left utterly exposed by this horrible virus.
It's particularly sad that even now, with the elderly known to be so vulnerable, idiots like Trump are agitating the hordes to get things back to 'normal'. Unfortunately, unless an effective vaccine is developed, I fear we may never see 'normal' again.
I hope we can hold firm with what we're doing for now and fewer of us have to endure the pain you are feeling.
God bless you and yours.
BP, Thoughts and prayers John. Lost my own mother after a long illness. You have my sympathy.
Condolences, BP. Both mine are still going at 92, on the Isle of Man, with support from my sister.
RIP, Mrs C.
Heartfelt Condolences BP I know what you will be going through I am 60 and both mine have been gone for more than 20 years.You will get through this the pain will ease but the good memories will always be with you take care and stay safe.
Big Pink.
So sorry.
Nothing I can say but I can't say nothing.
Aurellio Zen
I must say that any reasonable person would have deduced that we were being steered in a particular direction early on in this recent flood of interventions.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I'm hardly going to change opinion on here and wouldn't bother trying to.
The only serious attempt to steer opinion this week has been a concentrated campaign from the SPFL, both directly and indirectly.
It's a pity they weren't as forthcoming and ready to communicate when the questions started to arise. They didn't have the answers nor the leadership when needed but they've now been forced/advised to go on an intensive PR/lobbying drive.
Meanwhile, Rangers stay quiet and maintain the line that was stated in 3 short paragraphs last Sunday.
Those communications tactics seem to be a shift from the normal, ie. it's usually Rangers who go louder and wider.
BP – I'd like to add my condolences to those expressed by others earlier.
Homunculus
The full thing is awesome EJ
What percentage of it do you think Steven Gerrard wrote, or even read.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Football club is looking to promote ST sales and the first team manager is used in promotional push.
The only thing I see that might be considered as awesome is that the letter is so widely read.
Big Pink
I’d like to send my condolences for your loss.
Looks like we are now into the fourth or fifth “season” with the return of an old franchise with his new ip number and/ or email address and name.
Same style high intensity and agenda though.
Please don’t feed.
Reasonablechap – Each plans a bore
My condolences to you and yours BP. Thoughts are with you.
I see Susie Dents word today is Ipsedixitism!
I see that John Nelms has given a Q&A to Dundee's Evening Telegraph. I say "given" as it has all the appearance of a list of questions that he was prepared to answer and steers away from anything that might be deemed controversial.
https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/dundee-fc-john-nelms-lifts-lid-spfl-vote-u-turn/
Today also sees the latest meeting of the Premiership clubs, after which a decision could be made on concluding the Premiership season.
Interestingly, the DR says that TRFC's EGM request will be top of the agenda, while the BBC says that it's not on the agenda.
Hmmmmm! Which one to believe? I'll have a think about it for a few nanoseconds and say neither.
The football finance guru, @swissramble, has recently put together a simplified two page financial summary for each of the EPL clubs. He has now added similar ones for Celtic and Rangers as shown below. They are a useful reference to the key financial numbers from the accounts, although they relate to positions as they stood 10 months ago.
Finloch
Same style high intensity and agenda though.
Please don’t feed.
Reasonablechap – Each plans a bore
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Why not just tolerate a differing opinion instead of pushing for a closed shop?
I’m critical of a governing body/authority, how they went about their business and want to see a meaningful Independent Investigation. This is consistent with the stated common purpose of this community.
“The common purpose of almost all within our community is to hold the football authorities accountable to the fans, something they have avoided for almost 150 years.”
I don’t want to get involved further in defending my involvement and would rather just post on the issues in front of us.
Easyjambo
Nelms Q&A
%%%%%%%%
It seems obvious to me that the SPFL are in the midst of a structured and relatively intense lobbying campaign to effectively close down the resolution well before the 12th of May. This coming Saturday (on Sportsound) there will be a pre-recorded Chris McLaughlin interview of Neil Doncaster.
I note that Chris McLaughlin and Tom English were on last night’s Sportsound programme*. When English mentioned inconsistencies between the Deloitte timeline and what Dundee FC had publicly stated, McLaughlin closed him down quickly. He stated that you CAN’T say anything that puts into question the auditor. That was the matter closed.
The thing is, Tom English wasn’t casting doubt on the integrity of Deloitte. He was trying to raise a valid question that only helped to highlight why an investigation with such a narrow scope wouldn’t provide all the answers. Chris McLaughlin vigoursly closed him down with a spurious argument.
It chimes with Q&A’s where both Q’s and A’s come from the same place, the Doncaster interview will be pre-recorded and Chris McLaughlin is who will be asking the questions.
My opinion on the two journalists mentioned above, is that there is one who wants to get to the bottom of this story and another who doesn’t appear so keen.
*https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08bwtnb
Just to add that the particular conversation I referred to in the previous post begins at 11 mins 14 secs on the link provided.
Donald Trump has stated he’s seen the Rangers dossier but can’t disclose the contents
Phil’s latest is suggesting that TRFC had asked the SPFL for a loan, but the SPFL loan criteria was not complied with – so no loan was forthcoming.
This might explain Ibrox totally losing the plot re: accusations, and a requested investigation and suspensions, etc.
If the SPFL is ultimately the ‘bank of last resort’ and in the Ibrox club’s case, “It’s the Bank that likes to say: Naw!”,
then the only leverage left, (possibly?), relates to this quickly convened meeting tomorrow – to enable TRFC to negotiate some leeway, re: funding from the SPFL, (or the SFA even?).
Give us some cash and we will drop our complaints?
A bit left field I know, but if TRFC is that desperate for cash, why even bother wasting time on SPFL business when your own club is potentially about to sink beneath the waves…?
In other news, I note that David Murray has finally obtained approval from the Scottish Government for a £450m housing development on a greenfield site to the west of Edinburgh between the RBS headquarters at Gogarburn and the city bypass. It would appear that he still has influence in high places.
Rangers offer fans £25 voucher in place of refund if SPFL ends Premiership season early.
………
They ere due at least 3 home games, not much of a refund.
Use it in the shop. A voucher to get rid of last years stock.
StevieBC
Phil and his source(s) have proved to be unreliable.
Whilst cashflow will become a problem for all clubs sooner or later, the timing of this regards his impeccably placed source with SPFL info rings alarm bells, as it comes within a very active and intense PR/lobbying exercise from the SPFL.
In short, I don’t think the story true but appreciate that some will want to believe it.
Easyjambo
Knowing how Sir Duped has managed to navigate stormy waters and come up trumps would help lead us to somewhere meaningful regards finding out how the UK of various tiers operates.
This article in today’s Herald Sport makes, I think, some decent points until he gets on to “teams that have teetered on the brink of financial oblivion over the last 20 or so years”: then dear oh dear!!
https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/18420258.james-cairney-fans-bickering-titles-missing-bigger-picture/
Very long term lurker but first time commenter.
I enjoy reading all the comments and ideas of others yet I've avoided contributing 'til now due to my limited knowledge.
My contribution today is really an idea for the consideration of both the blog and for the author to feed into his organisations survey.
Of all the ideas for the completion or curtailment other than a call for flexibility, few have considered the possibility (likelihood) of restrictions preventing the playing of matches remaining in place into 2021.
My idea, if this is the case, would be a couple of closed door friendlies per team in early January with matches beginning as soon after as possible.
Thereby, play the league season over 2 years. Complete the semi finals and final of the 2020 Scottish Cup quickly then play both of the 2021 Scottish Cup and League Cup with finals close together next May. UEFA could fit in the remaining games from the current Champions League and Europa League competitions.
I know that UEFA will baulk at the loss of revenue but at least it would allow the 2021-22 season to be a fresh start for all and football could do with a fresh start with full FFP throughout and clubs, those that survive, living within their means.
We in Scotland will also have to construct a form of regulation that, once and for all, sweeps away the acceptance of antediluvian bigotry and dumps it in the dustbin of history where it belongs.
One final point, the attitudes and administrators who have presided over the disasters of the last two decades can not be part of that new thinking. We must fully professionalize the executive branch of both the league and SFA. For this to happen, Celtic will have to raise their heads above the parapet and put up with the sniping of the SMSM as the rewards will outweigh the short term pain. This will all be easier to achieve if the club thingy playing out of Ibrox are out of the equation.
Good luck to all the well run clubs and stay safe everyone.
Only Scottish fitba’ could arrange High Noon for 2 o’clock. Apparently the delay was at Sevco’s request, as they haven’t redacted some steenking badges from exhibit “A”, yet. They are not needed at this stage. Reports that we are about to discover whether the whistle-blower is a person, or a train coming, remain unconfirmed.
Evidence of actual evidence is expected to be produced though………Or maybe no….But the statement sweepstake lotto jackpot, is expected to pay out more than the national lottery this weekend, to the lucky winner.
Thanks to all for their messages, both private and public. Really appreciated.
On another planet, I see we are busy
Big Pink, John, please accept my sincerest condolences at this very sad time. Your mother may well be a statistic for this cruelest of Governments but she will always be a shining light in your life and a great loss to all who knew and loved her, I am sure. Don't 'take it on the chin', just let it all out and cry your heart out if that's what you need.
Condolences, too, to all your family and friends.
Take care, stay safe.
I’m sorry for your loss Big Pink. I pray that your mother rests in peace.
BBC Sport Scotland@BBCSportScot
Scottish Premiership clubs have been told that they will see Rangers’ evidence against the SPFL next week after what Aberdeen chairman Dave Cormack described as a “productive” meeting of the top-flight clubs.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52506778
easyJambo 1st May 2020 at 18:42
Your link to BBC Scotland
”…Dundee United were represented by Mal Brannigan. However, within a couple of hours, they announced that the chief executive had left his post with immediate effect.”
“””””
And a few mins ago United confirmed Brannigan has quit. Wasn’t helluva lot of point in him ‘attending’ the meeting.
Is there a significant back story?
John Clark 1st May 2020 at 19:09
And a few mins ago United confirmed Brannigan has quit. Wasn’t helluva lot of point in him ‘attending’ the meeting.
Is there a significant back story?
============================
I would have expected Jim Spence to explain that one, but it appears that he is either unaware or unwilling to go public with the reasons.
Jim Spence@JimSpenceSport
Scottish football may not be world class on field…..but off the pitch….Rangers square going everyone….Dundee Hokey Cokey vote….Utd just promoted and all going well and MD suddenly out the door….
Weird! He was quoted only today in the Courier and BBC Gossip page. "American owners’ investment is being smartly managed, says Dundee United chief Mal Brannigan".
What if he's the whistleblower!!!! Haha.
Just as well that there are a lot of supporters of the Queen down Ibrox way because they are being royally shafted in the ST sale . We're on our uppers as well , but at least had the decency to offer cash refunds for unplayed games . A £25 voucher for club store tat doesn't quite cut it .
Paddy, their £25 voucher isn't even spendable in the club shop! That would cost the club too much.
Your boss man at Partick Thistle (cant remember his name) got very high praise on Radio Clyde this evening.
Jim Spence takes aim at TRFC and asks questions of John Nelms and Mark Ogren in his latest column in the Courier.
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/jim-spence/1304113/jim-spence-undignified-rangers-threatens-scottish-football/
Did I mention that I received this email on 6 April from the FCA? I had damned near forgotten about it myself, it seems so long ago!
I imagine the FCA might be having codiv-19 problems of its own as well as maybe being run off its feet in some way or other with the problems of desperately anxious companies.
I, therefore, am not holding my breath waiting for a reply to come next week!
Complaints Scheme complaints@fca.org.uk
To:j
Cc:Complaints Scheme
Thu, 9 Apr at 11:06
Dear Mr
Thank you for your email.
Your complaint has been assigned to me to investigate. I will update you again in four weeks and, by this time, I hope to be in a position to provide you with a more substantive update.
Should you have any questions in the meantime, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Thank you for your continued patience in this matter.
Yours sincerely
Ch …K…….
Associate / Complaints Team / Risk & Compliance Oversight Division
12 Endeavour Square
London
E20 1JN”
And I won’t be calling for anyone to be suspended just yet, or for an Independent Investigation!
I wouldn’t want Donald Findlay to castigate me for departing from my normal way of behaviour!
( And credit to him for his observations about the Ibrox board not behaving like an Ibrox board)
EJ, ‘Page not found’ Deleted?
edit, I found it on The Courier’s website
easyJambo 1st May 2020 at 21:46
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/jim-spence/1304113/jim-spence-undignified-rangers-threatens-scottish-football/
I think this works better .
Jimbo
I see that now . Worse than I thought .I keep forgetting that they're shameless .
The BBC is reporting that contrary McLennan’s Q&A claims about loans, the SPFL did make advances or loans totaling £300,000 to two clubs in season 2016/17, which correlates with Ann Budge’s recollection.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52508965
The information was in the SPFL’s accounts which covered that season.
I’m annoyed that I didn’t check this myself earlier as I did have an inking that I had read that clubs had received funds more recently than had been suggested in the Q&A.
I thought Jim Spence was better than this.
"The club which, before liquidation, regarded itself as Scotland’s quintessential establishment football institution, is engaged in a war of words with the SPFL, casting aspersions but, as yet, producing no hard evidence."
The club he is talking about is still going through liquidation.
He knows that.
The argument about whether what was received by the two clubs in 2016/17 were “loans” or “advances” doesn’t really bother me that much. What does concern me is the reason that the clubs needed the cash.
According to an SPFL spokesman:
“During season 2016-17, earlier than usual fee payments were made to two clubs, totalling £300,000,” said a spokesman. “These were made following the promotion of Rangers FC to the Ladbroke Premiership. These fee payments followed complaints by three clubs that they had been disadvantaged in the fixturing for that season by not getting three visits from Celtic FC/Rangers FC.
“As a result of the negative impacts on their cash flow resulting from this fixturing anomaly, two of those three clubs requested earlier than normal fee payments totalling £300,000. These fee payments were not loans and were wholly within the amounts budgeted to be earned by those clubs, whatever final league placing was achieved by those clubs that season.”
So three clubs complained that they only had two visits from Celtic and Rangers instead of the three that they had budgeted for. The reason for this was apparently a “fixturing anomaly”.
Are they really saying that the fixtures are normally set up for Celtic and Rangers to ensure that all other clubs will be guaranteed three visits from Celtic and Rangers before the split.
That is an incredible situation for the SPFL to gerrymander fixtures in that way. All clubs should be treated in exactly the same way when it comes to fixtures. By all means schedule derby matches for holiday period and reverse the venues for the equivalent games between same teams for the following season, but that’s about it.
Hearts were scheduled to play both Hibs and Aberdeen twice away from home before the split, this season. Perhaps they should have insisted that they had three home games against those two clubs.
Rangers had just been promoted from the Championship the previous season, so had no priorities in terms of fixture scheduling. The fixtures are normally announced in June, so why were clubs not budgeting for the fixtures as drawn, rather than in anticipation of what they hoped to get.
The SPFL Board appears to have acknowledged both the anomaly and that clubs’ cashflows were impacted, thus were sensitive and accommodating to the situation.
That sensitivity doesn’t seem to be evident when is comes to relegating clubs by means of a vote of other clubs, including those who relieve themselves of such a risk.
If anyone can point me in the direction of the rules that determine such fixture scheduling, then I’d appreciate it.
easyJambo 1st May 2020 at 22:52
'..The BBC is reporting that contrary McLennan’s Q&A claims about loans, the SPFL did make advances or loans.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
As soon as I read that, eJ, my mind instantly made a distinction between 'an advance' and 'a loan'.
Advances of what you are due are not 'repayable.' – If I'm due my wages on May 10th but am skint today I might get a sub. That sub is not a loan-just an advance payment of monies due, and my wages will be reduced correspondingly.
A repayable loan from my 'friendly' publican ( borrow £50 quid, payback £60) is a horse of quite a different colour.
English is maybe being too loose with language. (And the SPFL, in using terms like 'repaid' (as in the example you cite) may also have been far too casual in the way it uses language)
Were people ( maybe 27 clubs, or even one club, in potential trouble) looking for 'loans' for more than their proper end-of-season entitlement, the excess of which over their final entitlement would have to be repaid?
We don't know.
TRFC may have been seeking a sum of money on loan ( disguised as an 'advance') and the SPFL realising that many other clubs in potential distress might try that tactic too [ I mentioned before that the SPFL itself is, of course, able to borrow monies] may rightly have decided that to go down that road would be fiscally unjustified.
But if the 'smoking gun' is in what Engish has to say, then as evidence to back up the slanderous accusations made against the SPFL board it would be pretty weak, and even the least effective of the QCs you and I have seen in action would have fun with it in open Court.
{And I remember that the legal chap at TRFC is not particularly well-regarded by at least one judge in the Court of Chancery)
I keep an open mind, while accepting that the SPFL made a hames of a whole lot of things.
Andrew
The fork paused on its way to my mouth the other night as my ears picked up your sweet dulcets from Clyde SuperscoreBoard.
Unfortunately my good lady entered the room to praise my cooking just as you were getting into your stride so I missed some of the message that you were trying to get across but I think I got the gist of what I missed from this blog.
What I did get after you signed off from the presenters was a bit of what I might call surprise that supporters might not only want to be involved but, gasp, actually had something to offer.
I would not call it condescending as in they meant to be so, they were being presented with some new thinking and were coming to terms with what you were saying and how you presented it. I’ve heard that kind of response before 🙂
I’m delighted to hear that the idea of consulting fans on the future of the game is taking hold and in answer to your question
” If you were charged with helping to create a sustainable and healthy future for Scottish Football what would you do? How would you advise Les, Ann and their Taskforce team about the right moves to make?”
What I suggest is that we strongly make the point on behalf of the fans that the ONLY source of income that Scottish football can rely on, even the big clubs as commercial income is at an ever growing risk until football as we know it can resume, is the supporters and with no football to offer, the clubs have nothing to sell and depend on fan loyalty.
Now fan loyalty has always prevented any boycott action by supporters even when the action of those running the game has justified it, and we all knew that without a real threat of lost income, nothing will change. Well the real threat has arrived.
What we have through painful human circumstances is the equivalent of a boycott and it gives the same bargaining power that a boycott would. We need to use it and not come to the table as supplicants but as equals.
Both those running the clubs and supporters have a shared desire and depending on the time it takes to end social distancing, that desire is survival. Not reconstruction but survival and that in my opinion should head the agenda.
So with no football to sell for the foreseeable future what can clubs sell their support who are their main income source?
The answer is obvious: a meaningful share in each club and by meaningful I mean one where “share” holders instead become members with a single vote at AGMs where resolutions are debated and passed. This is how Malmo do it.
Malmö FF made the transition from an amateur club to fully professional in the late 1970s under the leadership of club chairman Eric Persson.The club is an open member association, and the annual general meeting is the highest policy-making body where each member has one vote, therefore no shares are issued. The meeting approves the accounts, votes to elect the chairman and the board, and decides on incoming motions. During the successful 2010’s era Håkan Jeppsson was the chairman after taking over after Bengt Madsen in 2010, prior to his sudden death in 2018. The club’s legal status means that any interest claims are made to the club and not to the board of directors or club members. Daily operations are run by a managing director who liaises with the chairman.
With an equity of 497 million SEK the club is the richest football club in Sweden as of 2019. The turnover for 2018 was 343 million SEK.[72] The highest transfer fee received by Malmö FF for a player was 86.2 million SEK (€8.7 million at that time) for Zlatan Ibrahimović who was sold to Ajax in 2001. At the time, this was the highest transfer fee ever paid to a Swedish football club.[73]
The main sponsors of Malmö FF are Volkswagen, Elitfönster AB, Intersport, Imtech, JMS Mediasystem, Mercedes-Benz, SOVA and Svenska Spel.[74] The club also had a naming rights deal with Swedbank regarding the name of Eleda Stadion between 2007 and 2017 when it was called Swedbank Stadion.
Under such an arrangement those running clubs would become truly accountable to individual member supporters and not any wealthy owners, who are now possibly looking for an opportunity to get out of Scottish football, even at Celtic because not only is there no money to be made, keeping their clubs alive will cost them if they wish to continue to stay the course.
Proper supporter representation would also do much to restore the trust in the governance at SFA and SPFL because involving supporters in a meaningful recognised capacity would bring transparency and from there accountability at club and governance level. No more secret 5 Way Agreements, No more LNS shams. No more kicking the Res12 can down the road. No more media led shouts for a narrow SPFL investigation when such huge evidence backed elephants remain in the room and no more lies to shareholders at an AGM.
A membership scheme would have to:
3 Supporters overseas would do the same at same price on basis of being able to watch all games via IPTV with option to attend in person if in UK. (Like Celtic’s overseas season ticket)
4 Supporters who for any reason do not or cannot watch a live game pay a nominal amount to be a member (with or without voting rights?) perhaps with discount on club merchandise (offered to all tiers).
Of course 2 and 3 could not be offered now on the basis of watching a game but the promise that this would happen eventually with new added voting rights and the fear of there being no club around eventually if they do not take up the offer, should be enough to swing the argument for subscribing.
Supporters have the future of Scottish football in their hands, not Les Gray or Anne Budge or Peter Lawwell or whoever is the club recognised “head” and it is a future supporters should not sell cheap.
PS A slot on Off the Ball next?
easyJambo 1st May 2020 at 23:40
'..The argument about whether what was received by the two clubs in 2016/17 were “loans” or “advances”
"""""""""""""""""""
I've only just seen this post, eJ. I've been up and down like a yoyo 'sharing' the PC with the missus, and hadn't 'refreshed' before my post of 00.14.
If I am understanding this correctly (?)
One of the clubs in question must have been Hamilton – with Motherwell likely to be the other.
Back in 2016/17, both missed out on home fixtures with Celtic and TRFC in the third round of matches and both ended in the bottom six after the break.
Although the last league game was 21 May, Hamilton (having finished 11th) played on to win the Premiership play-off. Its last game was the 28 May.
Since the SPFL accounts are made up to 31 May, I'd guess that Hamilton did not receive its final fee payment until the beginning of June – hence the advance payment amount showing as outstanding at the end of the financial year.
We already know that the SPFL make a number of advance fee payments to all of the clubs at regular points throughout each season.
Other than inserting an additional, unscheduled round (still based on, I believe, the lowest possible position each could have finished at the time), the nature of the advance payments in question would appear to be the same as every other advance payment.
My understanding is that just prior to lockdown, the SPFL had made a scheduled fee payment – again, based on the minimum league position each club could achieve at the time. It seems to me, highly unlikely that, a fortnight ago, there would have been much scope to make significant fee advances, beyond those already made.
Auldheid 2nd May 2020 at 00:18
————–—————-
You have to be careful when setting up membership schemes. If you are planning to give something tangible in return for the fee, then you will probably have to pay VAT on the fee.
I know that the Foundation of Hearts has been very cautious about any reward schemes for that reason.
Some good insight from Iain McMenemy of Stenhousemuir writing in today’s Scotsman
……………
Iain McMenemy: Project restart’ to get football going seems a bit too rushed
Plan to resume so soon feels like it’s to suit broadcasters, which means it is all just about money
By The Newsroom
Saturday, 2nd May 2020, 7:30 am
It is important that the fans should have a voice when possible reconstruction solutions are being discussed. Picture: SNS Copyright: 2020 SNS GroupAlthough there are no matches being played, football still seems to be talked about just as much.
South of the Border, the talk is around “Project Restart”, the ambitious plan to get football going again in a matter of weeks. Whilst the full details of the plan are yet to emerge, most likely because they are yet to be developed, the plan is likely to involve televised games behind closed doors, therefore, without any fans allowed in the stadium.
Part of me thinks that it would be great to see the game return, but I can’t get away from the famous words of Jock Stein: “Football is nothing without fans”. However, that is perhaps the price we will all eventually have to pay to get football going again.
But is it too soon? Already some players are voicing their concerns about being asked to train and play whilst this virus continues to infect at current rates. The idea of players in masks is probably the most ludicrous of the suggestions to emerge. I’ve also seen figures quoted of £200,000 per team to fund a player testing regime to ensure they are free of COVID-19.
It all seems a tad rushed to me. Football is a sport, it’s a competitive game between two teams that is designed to entertain its fans. It feels like this plan is only to appease the broadcasters, so in fact it’s football for money, not for fans.
Why not wait just a little longer. Once we have the science that supports a position where we are well and truly defeating the virus, then we can get back to football. I concede that this may yet involve playing behind closed doors, but if we have reduced the infection and reproduction rates of the virus, it is safer for players, staff, coaches and the large support team that ensures games go ahead. I hope that is the approach we take in Scotland. But ultimately I hope that we can get back to playing in front of fans before too long.
Football fans also made their voice known this week with the publication of the results of their survey into league reconstruction. Their message was loud and clear. 70 per cent of supporters say they want proper reconstruction as opposed to a quick fix for one season. 84 per cent of fans want to see an end to playing the same opposition four times a season, with a clear preference for enlarged divisions up to 14 or 16 teams. I hope football will listen.
I previously advocated a seat at the reconstruction working group table for supporters. That obviously didn’t happen. However, I understand that the working group has committed to seek opinion from supporters’ groups. That is a positive and I commend Les Gray for making that happen. I’d hope that their views are properly considered and help shape the future of the game.
Football will return and let’s hope it has a fresh format. More importantly, let’s hope that all clubs get through these difficult times. Club finances are taking a hammering and uncertainty hampers the ability to plan ahead.
The continual in-fighting within the SPFL does us no favours either. I’ll refrain from picking sides, and instead I’ll just hope that it ends soon. There are bigger issues out there to worry about and I’d rather we spent our time focusing on ensuring the survival of our clubs, and the eventual return of our game.
There are clearly issues that need to be addressed within our league structures but these should be dealt with in a constructive environment. Any member club should feel empowered to criticise and raise issues of concern, and the league executive should be ready to respond with transparency, openness and a desire to seek resolution.
We have to accept a degree of self-interest in a members organisation in which each member is a club that competes against other clubs. But there are times when we have to also find common ground.
I was invited to take part in a Lowland league podcast this week. The invitation arose as a result of concerns in the Lowland/Highland leagues that their champions have lost out on access to the SPFL playoffs this season due to the season ending prematurely. So at the moment, this means that the reconstruction route is the only one open to them to progress into the SPFL. If that route is closed off too, then that would clearly be a disappointing outcome, but unfortunately, it is one that could happen.
I faced some tough questions, from supporters of teams in the Lowland League who have every right to feel aggrieved. But there are no solutions that satisfy all concerns. There is no structure that fixes everything. There will be losers somewhere along the line. Self-interest and self-preservation will be factors in the debate, there is no point pretending otherwise.
Lowland and Highland League supporters want their interests honoured, so will SPFL club supporters. All of this is before the politics and financial interests that exist in football rear their ugly head too. But while there are these big issues that cause division, there are many others where we have common ground.
We might not get everything fixed right away. The issues that remain when this is all over are hopefully things we can try to pick back up and address at a future point. The virus is here for a while yet, and our way of life will be adversely impacted for some time. Football will be back, but as only one small part of society that will need to find its new way, and that’s something we shouldn’t lose sight of.
easyJambo 1st May 2020 at 23:40
The argument about whether what was received by the two clubs in 2016/17 were “loans” or “advances” doesn’t really bother me that much. What does concern me is the reason that the clubs needed the cash
======================================
I'm not sure where to find it in the rule book EJ, but it's in there. I recall the argument the anomoly causes from the side of the top end of the split. Due to the uneven amount of games to be played, sometimes it pans out as 3 aways and 1 home, as opposed to 2 home and aways each during the normal course of a season. Clubs on the underside of the split, normally budget for being on the receiving end of 2 x 2 visits from Celtic and Sevco.
Whether they should be budgeting for receiving it is another matter, but its a red herring.
I am actually more concerned with why our journalists are such puppets on strings. Trial by media is no trial at all. It's what the law says that counts, and we are all witness to how much disregard these puppets pay to legal outcomes when their strings are pulled. Pay no heed to Uncle Tom.
John Clark 2nd May 2020 at 00:14
====================
It would be great to know the real truth behind the motives of so many involved in this. One particular truth I would like to know is why the BBC are handing their Chief Sports Writer a platform for what seems to now be a personal crusade against the SPFL. What is his motive, and why only now is he desperate for the SPFL to be held to account for something even though Rangers refuse to tell anyone what it actually is? Something just doesn't sit right.
In terms of a truly 'Independent' inquiry I personally don't believe such a thing is possible in Scottish Football.
easyJambo 1st May 2020 at 23:40
The argument about whether what was received by the two clubs in 2016/17 were “loans” or “advances” doesn’t really bother me that much. What does concern me is the reason that the clubs needed the cash.
According to an SPFL spokesman:
“During season 2016-17, earlier than usual fee payments were made to two clubs, totalling £300,000,” said a spokesman. “These were made following the promotion of Rangers FC to the Ladbroke Premiership. These fee payments followed complaints by three clubs that they had been disadvantaged in the fixturing for that season by not getting three visits from Celtic FC/Rangers FC.
“As a result of the negative impacts on their cash flow resulting from this fixturing anomaly, two of those three clubs requested earlier than normal fee payments totalling £300,000. These fee payments were not loans and were wholly within the amounts budgeted to be earned by those clubs, whatever final league placing was achieved by those clubs that season.”
=====================================
This is exactly the kind of arrangement that I suggested should be used to resolve the current short-term financial issues being faced by clubs. A number of posters claimed that this wasn’t possible but clearly it was and had precedent.
The SPFL Board and executive were guilty of both ignoring this option and conflating financial help with league issues and thus leaving member clubs with an unwelcome choice – secure financial assistance but accept something likely unwelcome in any other circumstances.
Shameless but as we know clearly typical of how these people think.
Scottish Football stinks.
Have Sevco submitted an Euro application form by the required cut-off date and is it compliant?…Did Sevco ask for a £2.4m “loan” secured against potential league prize money but with a deferred payback option, meaning a £4.8m money transfer,(inclusive of 2nd place prize monies), with £2.4m repayable at a future date subject to their entitlement?…..Did Sevco ever conjure up the additional £10m they required to see out the season?…..Do Sevco have available finances to settle player remunerations at the end of the agreed wage deferral period?….Are Sevco directors currently taking advantage of government relaxation of the Insolvent Trading laws? Are Sevco on schedule to notify the authorities as to what colour jersey they will compete in next season?…Do Sevco have contingency resources to settle potential court awarded damages made against them?
OMG this journalist lark is easy.
If journalists really want to turn the Sevco funeral into the noisiest cortege in the country, there are easier ways to do so without dragging every other club into it. There is no need to turn it into a mass grave.
Corrupt Official…..and what a story that would be! A real investigative scoop that would highlight this culmination of scandalous behaviour by the two clubs and football authorities going back over ten years.
Who amongst the journalistic cadre has the balls to speak truth to power? Their ongoing silence is a badge of shame.
Scottish Football needs a strong SMSM.
Corrupt official 2nd May 2020 at 10:22
'….this journalist lark is easy…'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Except that it requires a degree of moral courage and some actual interest in objective Truth: qualities which the general run of SMSM football hacks do not have, as has been demonstrated by the absence of any kind of criticism of SDM, RFC of 1872, and by the acceptance without demur of the living lie that TRFC has been since 2012.
Every man jack of them (with one or two honourable exceptions) has simply shut his mind and ears to the truth -either through personal support of the cheating that went on and/or out of cowardice ,happy to prostitute himself for such gain as he imagines might outweigh the loss of his personal integrity.
Breaking news
Tommy Wright quits/sacked
I was flabbergasted over my cornflakes this morning – at a DR headline.
It succinctly captures;
– the WATP mentality ingrained at Ibrox
– the farce status of Ibrox business operations
– the continuing, blind compliance of the SMSM.
"Rangers commercial chief aims to 'influence government' as he gives replica kit update"
According to today's BBC Gossip page, the Daily Record is reporting that these payments/loans/advances (delete as appropriate) were only able to be made because "Celtic deferred a £300,000 payment to enable the SPFL to pay advances to Motherwell and Partick Thistle in 2017." If true, could that be a reason that the same couldn't be done for all clubs this time around?
Also, if true, wouldn't Anne Budge know about the background if she knew about approving the loan?
Busy day yesterday so just catching up.
Sorry to hear BP’s news. Sad at the best of times but even more so in the current situation. My thoughts are with you and your family.
Higgy's Shoes 2nd May 2020 at 11:23
Breaking news
Tommy Wright quits/sacked
===========================
He'll be lined up for the Northern Ireland job.
From the DR : "Gers are continue to hunt for a new kit supplier for next season, the club’s 150th anniversary (sic), after a judge ordered they couldn’t continue their agreement with Hummel or Elite Group who sold their shirts.
Bisgrove said: “All of our existing contracts within kit and retail will come to a conclusion at the end of the season. That will lead us into a new era and that allows us to move forward with a new partner across kit and retail.”
======================================
I wondered if Mr Ashley knows about that last bit?
Scottish Football needs a more than cut 'n' paste SMSM.
redlichtie 2nd May 2020 at 12:05
From the DR : "Gers are continue to hunt for a new kit supplier for next season, the club’s 150th anniversary (sic), after a judge ordered they couldn’t continue their agreement with Hummel or Elite Group who sold their shirts. Bisgrove said: “All of our existing contracts within kit and retail will come to a conclusion at the end of the season. That will lead us into a new era and that allows us to move forward with a new partner across kit and retail.”
=============================
Ach you know the Sevvies Red. They can never get a word in at the best of times, and he probably got cut off mid-sentence.
That will lead us into a new era and that allows us to move forward with a new partner across kit and retail, subject to them undercutting the Sports Direct matching offer
redlichtie 2nd May 2020 at 12:05
Confirmed on the TRFC website
https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/commercial-update/
EJ's post suggests that TRFC has abandoned capitalisation. Have they realised that capital letters were a Roman construct to be abjured in the interests of Staunchness (or staunchness?).
easyjambo
Just goes to show how easy it is to write guff/fake noos when you put your mind to it.
As the world’s most successful football club wrt to deflection, I don’t think it will be too long before the ‘ba’ (which is currently ‘in the slates’) will be well and truly burst.
SEVCO must be dreading, in spite of their protestations (!), a playing end to the season.
IMHO that is.
UTHoops
It would be great to know the real truth behind the motives of so many involved in this. One particular truth I would like to know is why the BBC are handing their Chief Sports Writer a platform for what seems to now be a personal crusade against the SPFL. What is his motive, and why only now is he desperate for the SPFL to be held to account for something even though Rangers refuse to tell anyone what it actually is? Something just doesn’t sit right.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Tom English is simply doing his job.
In this case, trying to hold power (the SPFL) to account.
Don’t forget, this site is primarily supposed to be about holding Scottish football governing authorities to account.
I get why many will criticise Rangers for not releasing the evidence earlier but they have announced it will given to the clubs next week. Personally, I’d have liked to have seen it released earlier as well.
It’s perfectly logical to be critical of Rangers regards timing and be in favour of holding the SPFL to account.
RedLichtie
This is exactly the kind of arrangement that I suggested should be used to resolve the current short-term financial issues being faced by clubs. A number of posters claimed that this wasn’t possible but clearly it was and had precedent.
The SPFL Board and executive were guilty of both ignoring this option and conflating financial help with league issues and thus leaving member clubs with an unwelcome choice – secure financial assistance but accept something likely unwelcome in any other circumstances.
Shameless but as we know clearly typical of how these people think.
Scottish Football stinks.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Agreed
They’ve been caught in a lie(s).
Higgy’s Shoes 2nd May 2020 at 11:23
Breaking news
Tommy Wright quits/sacked
All speculation, rumour and innuendo on Saints site(s) at this time. No official statement from the board.
I don’t know……………….Nobody knows!!
Following a pretty dismal start to the season he managed to put together a fairly impressive squad that was gelling well and really coming on a game in the months prior to the shut down. He may well be thinking that that has all gone now and is simply not up for starting from scratch again at McDiarmid if/when, football eventually returns this year.
Has about 2 years to run on his contract but, there has been an inkling amongst some fans that maybe he was ready for a change.
Of course as mentioned earlier, there is the NI job.
easyJambo 2nd May 2020 at 12:20
…Furthermore, Rangers will begin the 2020/21 football season with a new kit and retail operations partner, following the conclusion of all existing contracts. James Bisgrove, Director of Commercial and Marketing said: “The club is incredibly excited to introduce its new kit & retail partner to Rangers supporters world-wide imminently. This represents a clean slate and marks the start of a new era in the club’s commercial retail operations…
____________________________-
Two thing strike me about that part of their statement, strike me but don't surprise me.
We already knew that their existing contracts had come to a 'conclusion', though not in the way such a conclusion is normally reached outside of court. They have also given a complete body-swerve in the statement to the ongoing SDI/Ashley case.
Secondly, I doubt very many clubs, or companies, release the news that they have a new business partner before they feel able to give it's name. Kind of takes the gloss off the big announcement.
It's almost as though the club have some season tickets to sell and are desperate to put out 'good news' without actually committing themselves to naming names that might lead to further legal action from a rather litigious enemy of the people.
RedLichtie
From the DR : “Gers are continue to hunt for a new kit supplier for next season, the club’s 150th anniversary (sic), after a judge ordered they couldn’t continue their agreement with Hummel or Elite Group who sold their shirts.
Bisgrove said: “All of our existing contracts within kit and retail will come to a conclusion at the end of the season. That will lead us into a new era and that allows us to move forward with a new partner across kit and retail.”
======================================
I wondered if Mr Ashley knows about that last bit?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Interesting rumours starting to come through (via poster on FF who has a near perfect record wrt info). It boils down to the large dark shadow of Mr.MASH to have been metaphorically removed from the clubs retail operation. No details of how.
I realise this will be met with scepticism and that would be understandable but given the record of source reliability, I wouldn’t discount it.
%%%%%%%%%
ps. Doncaster on Sportsound (live)
Live because of what looks like damage control re advances/loans. Earlier in the week, Chris McLaughlin had said it would be a pre-recorded interview.
Will only take questions from one person (ie. doesn’t want Tom English asking questions).
I have spoken about football allegiances and giving thumbs-up and thumbs-down. I fully understand that those with different footballing views will choose one or the other however I find it incredibly sad that one or two posters appear to lack any basic human level of respect when responding to a number of recent non-footballing posts.
I know that TRFC and SDI were advised by Lionel Persey to seek a settlement through mediation. Given the lack of any information relating to further hearings, then it is entirely possible that mediation has happened.
Lets say that a figure of £3m, £5m, or whatever, was the agreed amount for SDI to walk away, including completely forgoing the matching agreement.
If TRFC was then able to get an up front payment from a new retail partner to match the settlement figure, then it would be a no cost option for the club and allow them to make a fresh start. I don’t know how such transactions would be accounted for, if at all, within the club’s annual report, so we may never know what was involved in the settlement.
Edit: An alternative scenario would be that TRFC has approached a new supplier and the SDI is not prepared to match the agreement. That would of course leave the court action ongoing.
The press release appears to involve use of a new tense, the TRFC Future Perfect, detectable by the presence of the adverb 'imminently'. This signals all multiverse waveforms will collapse into the best of all possible futures, Rangerswise. It's usage, as always, is conditional on the urgent sale of all season tickets.
Easyjambo
I wonder if Dave King having stepped down from the role of Chairman has altered the way SDI/Ashley might consider an offer.
Another thought is how he views his involvement in football. He seems to be seriously considering selling Newcastle Utd.
Edit
Your alternative scenario is plausible but again it would need Ashley to back down and/or a new company to make a very good offer when it probably doesn’t need to.
https://twitter.com/rangerstaxcase/status/1256580747814514693?s=21
Impecable timing.
EJ
…. or the new kit supplier is Sondico and the retail partner is Sports Direct.
https://www.sportsdirect.com/sondico-fundamental-polo-t-shirt-junior-boys-620026#colcode=62002650
Seems the most likely scenario.
Ex Ludo
Impecable timing.
Text of RTC tweet
Journalists. If you are happily taking leaks and leads from shady PR people but not demanding they give you the full text of the resolution Rangers* wanted the SPFL to present for a vote, you are just a shill.
%%%%%%%%%%%%
That infers that RTC is in possession of or at least seen said text.
That being the case, I’d ask RTC to publish it. Otherwise it’s simply one mans shady PR people against another mans fan on twitter.
Avatarreasonablechap 2nd May 2020 at 15:05
Ex Ludo Impecable timing. Text of RTC tweet Journalists. If you are happily taking leaks and leads from shady PR people but not demanding they give you the full text of the resolution Rangers* wanted the SPFL to present for a vote, you are just a shill. %%%%%%%%%%%% That infers that RTC is in possession of or at least seen said text. That being the case, I’d ask RTC to publish it. Otherwise it’s simply one mans shady PR people against another mans fan on twitter.
————
Not correct. He is not claiming to have seen the resolution, nor, indeed, is he saying there is anything wrong with the resolution, itself. He is castigating the SMSM though, for, once again, accepting everything that their favoured club says without question and reporting what the club wants them to report like the lapdogs they are.
In other words, they are just shills.
Do you agree with him or do you think it is right that 'journalists' should just accept everything they are given from one particular source and publish it as though factual?
Help with maths:
Clubs have already had interim payments
' The top three in the Premiership – Celtic, Rangers and Motherwell – will receive £395,000 plus VAT.
The rest of the top-flight clubs will get £157,500 plus VAT.' BBC 26 March 2020
Any further advance payments, if advanced at all, would surely need to be calculated on a 'worst case' scenario. 'Worst case' would involve no further points won on the pitch, optimum possible performances from league rivals, plus an admin event. This brings us back to OC/NC territory. -15 would leave TRFC still 2nd; -25 would drop them to 5th. It's not so much the difference in prize money (£717000) – not to be sniffed at, but probably not decisive. It's when Doncaster gets his calculator out and says 'Make your mind up lads, OC or NC?' that things get interesting.
Just listening to Sportsound and see that Neil Doncaster confirmed that those fee payments of £150k were made to 2 clubs (M'well and Thistle) in 2017. He also confirms that at the same time, Celtic deferred an equivalent £300k of their fee payment due.
He also states categorically that loans could not be made because of the potential for non-repayment by some clubs failing due to Coronavirus.
Ally jambo
I didn’t say he did claim to see it. I used the word inferred.
I disagree with your interpretation.
If you just want to call out journalists in a general sense then there is no need to refer to a particular text.
He is pointing to a particular text and is suggesting that journalists have reported inaccurately due to not having seen it in full, nor being partiularly interested in pursuing it. To suggest that, would infer he has seen it or is going by the word of a 3rd party for information
Shills
Scottish fitbaw hacks are amongst other less than wonderful things, often shills. But it most certainly goes in various directions.
reasonablechap
2nd May 2020 at 15:05
Ex Ludo
Impecable timing.
Text of RTC tweet
"Journalists.
If you are happily taking leaks and leads from shady PR people but not demanding they give you the full text of the resolution Rangers* wanted the SPFL to present for a vote, you are just a shill. "
That infers that RTC is in possession of or at least seen said text.
That being the case, I’d ask RTC to publish it. Otherwise it’s simply one mans shady PR people against another mans fan on twitter.
The tweet infers nothing. It is reasonablechap who is inferring. The RTC Tweet implies that the journalists should be able to infer that the PR people know somebody who may know somebody who has seen the text.
Hope this helps
It was public knowledge that RIFC/TRFC was financially desperate – even before the lockdown.
There must be a predefined ‘tipping point’, you would think, when the Ibrox company/club actually issues a 100% honest statement?
Something like: “the club has minimal cash and needs your help urgently – so please, please buy your ST’s NOW or you may not have a club to support.””
Unless of course, an insolvency event at Ibrox is the preferred / pre-agreed course of action…?
Mibbees the SPFL is not being as ‘accommodating’ as they could be… as the SPL was in 2011/12?
Re RTC
If only he/she had an established history of proving that journalists always seemed to provide one side of the story, and yet remarkably it consistently appeared to be from the same side….
Same method every time.."I thought this blog was.." "I am trying to put an alternative blah blah" ,"Oh! well why dont you engage me in a civilized .." ah ffs just do one.Your only purpose here is to disrupt and antagonise( you succeeded). At least you're more transparent than the SFA.
re my help with maths post at 15.39
This is without making allowances for the clubs below TRFC picking up points – that's the help needed bit. I've no idea what combinations of other team's results would most disadvantage TRFC. 42 points max from a pre-split admin could see them missing the split as teams down to Killie could match that total.
Reasonablechap@15.05
Inferences, inferences everywhere but no evidence to be seen.
It seems to me that it is perfectly reasonable for RTC or anyone else to ask journalists to not just accept press releases and statements at face value. This was the core of the problem in and around 2010 when Rangers (IL) were in trouble with the Taxman and none of the SMSM would touch the story. I’m sure, being a reasonable chap, that you will agree with me and acknowledge that RTC did Scottish football a huge favour by exposing what was going on and pointing up the ineffectiveness of the SMSM?
Perhaps not since you’re not a fan like me.
John Clark 2nd May 2020 at 00:14
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easyJambo 1st May 2020 at 22:52
‘..The BBC is reporting that contrary McLennan’s Q&A claims about loans, the SPFL did make advances or loans.’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
As soon as I read that, eJ, my mind instantly made a distinction between ‘an advance’ and ‘a loan’.
……………………….
So far ahead of the Game JC.
FYI, it was reported (by the DR) that the Rangers[sic] resolution was as follows:
The "and instructed" phrase is important – because it appears to attempt to remove the board's power to take steps to ensure that each prospective borrower would be in a position to make repayment if necessary.
Of course, if the league positions were subsequently called as is, no repayments would be necessary.
However, if the leagues were to restart at a later date (say in July/August), the final positions are likely to change and some clubs would have been overpaid.
With the probibility of multiple insolvency events over the next few weeks and months, it's possible not all clubs will survive until that 'final' decision is made. Many may not be in a position to restart the season and, at the very least, their final positions could ultimately be significantly lower than where they are placed now. Failing to finish the season may even mean expulsion and the loss of some or all entitlement to prize money.
As I read it, the "and instructed" phrase was incompetent – as it would place the board in breach of its fiduciary duty.
Without that phrase, the resolution became largely meaningless as the board has always had the authority to provide loans.
The question then centres around how many clubs would have qualified for a loan? How many would have been able and/or prepared to put forward personal guarantees? Could the SPFL members have confidence that all loans of greater value than the eventual prize money would be repaid?
Without the "and instructed" phrase, loans would have been be available for clubs that were in a decent financial position.
Clubs, already on their arses, simply wouldn't have qualified.
John Clark 2nd May 2020 at 00:14 30 2 Rate This easyJambo 1st May 2020 at 22:52 '..The BBC is reporting that contrary McLennan’s Q&A claims about loans, the SPFL did make advances or loans.' """""""""""""""""""""""""""""" As soon as I read that, eJ, my mind instantly made a distinction between 'an advance' and 'a loan'. ………………………. So far ahead of the Game JC.
JC, You frequently quote in your musings, "(with one or two honourable exceptions) when referring to our noble press. I assume that Jim Spence is one but for the life of me I can't fathom who the other could be. Would you please reveal who this person might be so that we don't make false accusations against him/her.
I was going to say above, "so that we don't miscry this person" but it seems that this is not a recognised word. I looked up a few dictionaries, books and online but didn't find the word. I am sure that I have spoken it and heard others use the word but he ho, "false accusations" will do.
Listening to sportsound today they were saying some bigger clubs were in more danger of going out of business than the smaller clubs.
Easy option if a 'bigger club goes bust us to buy one of the smaller clubs and rename them.
This is what Airdrie United did to poor Clydebank. They even got to change their name back to Airdrieonians!! All perfectly legal apparently.
This was as sorry an episode as all the Rangers/Sevco stuff as far as im concerned
ExLudo
I don't think we needed to be told that journalists often accept press releases and statements at face value. The lead up to the Iraq war should have been a large enough red flag for anyone who hadn´t picked up on it before.
Mainstream Scottish fitbaw hacks are generally poor and are getting steadily worse due to various reasons, eg. the clickbait culture promotes very low quality work, the lack of direct access/relationships promotes printing press releases or similar, widespread media training means you tend to know what will be said before it is said and eventually you stop listening. I could go on…
There are exceptions to that but not very many, eg. at the moment Tom English is trying to do a real job of work.
There is also the tribal aspect but that works both ways.
Ironically both Rangers and Celtic fans say the MSM only works in favour of their rival. Neither are accurate.
Messageboards are tribal and essentially closed shops.
As was discussed on Sportsound the 'loans issue' is a red herring.
The idea of just approving an 'advance payment' to clubs was wholly avoided by Doncaster. IMHO he failed to provide any argument if a) was it even considered, b) if so, why was it ruled out or deemed inappropriate.
He waffled on about the potential for clubs owing the SPFL monies if final league positions changed. However that is only a concern if you advance 100% of the final sums owed. A calculation could easily have been done to ensure all clubs got something and a little bit held back to deal with final placing.
As Michael Stewart stated, even if that were the case any anomalies could have been resolved the following season by paying more or less to the club's involved.
A resolution could have satisfied issuing some money now along with agreeing a deadline by which the leagues were called if there was no prospect of playing the season out. At that point the final tranche gets paid out.
No one has provided a decent reason why lower league clubs need money now but Premiership clubs can somehow ride the storm a little bot longer.
In all divisions there will be clubs needing cash urgently and those who can wait a bit longer.
Wottpi
As was discussed on Sportsound the 'loans issue' is a red herring…
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Doncaster went on live to try and contain (and kill) the story.
He is the first person in a sports progranme that I've ever heard to have insisted in answering only questions from the one person. Effectively rendering Tom English, Michael Stewart and others mute and unable to help Richard Gordon against a lawyer, when detail and semantics were always going to play an important part.
From Q&A's done in front of mirrors to live interviews but only with their conditions.
You'd think they had something to hide.
Bill1903 2nd May 2020 at 18:03
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Listening to sportsound today they were saying some bigger clubs were in more danger of going out of business than the smaller clubs.
Easy option if a ‘bigger club goes bust us to buy one of the smaller clubs and rename them.
………………..
If they go bust that means they have no money to continue never mind buy another club.
https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-statement-46665
…………….
Statement
SPFL statement re Ann Budge loan claim.
https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-statement-46665
If Rangers* were to go bust then buy up another club* can I suggest Queen of the South , that way at least they would have 2 Petrofac Cups to boast about.
Sevco were clearly not paying attention when Rangers were getting battered in the courts, but they know now……….Loans are subject to taxes.!
Edit
I got that the wrong way round.
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/05/02/sevco-win-another-make-believe-victory-over-big-mike/
This may not end well.
And is the new kit supplier Castore? Not even a household name in their own household….
Rangers* seem to have found a company even younger than themselves (est 2016 v 2012).
If Andy Murray is involved he should know better.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
Reasonablechap@18.04
So no credit due to RTC for his/her contribution 10 years ago but you’re happy to applaud Tom English for doing the job today that he should have been doing then. One of his main priorities then appeared to be emailing copy to Craig Whyte for approval.
Perhaps you’re not as reasonable as your nom de plume suggests. Oh well.
What’s it all about, alfie?
Is it just for the moment we live?
What’s it all about when you sort it out, alfie?
Are we meant to take more than we give
Or are we meant to be kind?
And if only fools are kind, alfie,
Then I guess it’s wise to be cruel.
And if life belongs only to the strong, alfie,
What will you lend on an old golden rule?
As sure as I believe there’s a heaven above, alfie,
I know there’s something much more,
Which takes you back to what’s it all about, a question that should be asked before being dragged down the sematic she said he said word mines.
If viable alternatives to what SPFL did to stay within the bounds of their responsibilities to the SPFL in fact do or did exist, what impact would that have had on the decisions clubs were asked to make?
Are complainers saying that the end result in terms of payment and timing of them would have been different had a different resolution been put forward or alternatives given in the one that was?
If not what is the problem?
If any alternative removed the need to set league placings in concrete, who would benefit from that and for how long? Would the separation have made any difference to clubs not in top tier if payments under whatever description were made anyway?
Under the Resolution passed the top tier clubs were tied in to commitment to base payments around league placings, but would that have stopped such a decision having to be made at some point or was it that payments to them cannot be made until UEFA guidance is clear enough to follow? They seem to be waiting for their share of the £7M Doncaster stated is being held and is it the waiting that annoyed TRFC because of their financial circumstances?
Do they feel hard done by not because any resolution that required league placings gave Celtic the title but because they could not and cannot wait until that placing decision is taken or is it a combination of both?
Is that why they shouted foul but as time passes are having to recognise title placings will be decided on sporting merit and SPFL have no option for reasons ND explained to make payments dependent on placings?
It does not help that the two top tier clubs most affected by a tie to fixing league placings are Hearts because of relegation and finances since Anne Budge has made it clear, unlike her Ibrox counterparts, Hearts (and her I imagine ) face financial difficulties that a payout would help Hearts deal with.
TRFC on the other hand, assuming no financial stress , could then only be annoyed at losing the chance, poor as it was of catching Celtic , or surrendering that the title was won on sporting merit by Celtic when the pandemic offered the opportunity to do what they could not and deny Celtic the title.
In short would any other route taken by SPFL have stopped Celtic being awarded the title and Hearts from relegation in the ever clearer scenario that Scottish football itself is screwed possibly for this year and CoVid19 has already drawn the line on this season?
Now if TRFC really want Doncaster and McKenzie’s head on a plate The LNS Sham timeline, when both failed to respond fully and convincingly to evidence of dishonesty and unlawful ebts withheld from LNS, brought to their attention by SFM in 2014, should be more than fit for such a purpose. Over to TRFC.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uWzxhblAt9dnVHSl9OU3RoWm8/view?usp=sharing
.
2nd May 2020 at 19:13
I think a lot of TRFC supporters balk at the thought that loans have to be repaid . That'll never catch on .
Maybe if Rangers had a decent lawyer they could have drafted a resolution which was actually competent to put to the 42 members of the SPFL and none of this nonsense would be going on now.
Change "instruct" and "loan" and you are pretty much sorted I would have thought.
In fact did the SPFL not offer to help with that. They could hardly have done that then rejected the resolution which was put to them.
Someone else's fault syndrome … again.
With reference to my earlier comment stating survival of the game in Scotland is the only issue we should all, clubs and supporters be concerned about, check these reports from the USA about the difficulties sport faces restarting because of CoVid19.
The only answer seems to be reduce costs to a minimum (without impoverishing payers in the process ) and seek whatever help supporters with a pay check or mega rich owners can afford to give.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/05/01/sports-return-plans-problems/
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29120877/blueprint-how-league-finish-2019-20-season
Hope and pray for the best, plan for the worst.
Ex Ludo
So no credit due to RTC for his/her contribution 10 years ago but you’re happy to applaud Tom English for doing the job today that he should have been doing then. One of his main priorities then appeared to be emailing copy to Craig Whyte for approval.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%
My post wasn't about 10 years ago, I am referring to more current events.
Auldheid 2nd May 2020 at 20:10
They could have paid out minimum guaranteed earnings eg all in top 6 in Premiership get 6th place prize money , 6-12 get 12th place money . The other divisions could be dealt with the same way – minimum guaranteed based on present poits total . The residue to be paid out once league positions are finalised .
I see Tom English did an interview with SFA President Rod Petrie. As a man who is keen to get to the bottom of things and hold the authorities accountable, you would think he might have wanted to know why the SFA have been sitting on the Rangers European Licence case for over two years. Tom didn't ask. No surprise there.
paddy malarkey 2nd May 2020 at 20:47
Bearing in mind that the clubs had already gotten most of their money as interim payments throughout the year. Most would not have got much in the way of an additional payment doing it that way
By finalising the positions in the bottom three divisions they all got everything they were going to be entitled to.
Auldheid 2nd May 2020 at 20:10
Do they feel hard done by not because any resolution that required league placings gave Celtic the title but because they could not and cannot wait until that placing decision is taken or is it a combination of both?
Is that why they shouted foul but as time passes are having to recognise title placings will be decided on sporting merit and SPFL have no option for reasons ND explained to make payments dependent on placings?
It does not help that the two top tier clubs most affected by a tie to fixing league placings are Hearts because of relegation and finances since Anne Budge has made it clear, unlike her Ibrox counterparts, Hearts (and her I imagine ) face financial difficulties that a payout would help Hearts deal with.
================================
It has been stated on here several times over that the conflation of releasing funds, tied to ending the season, abandoning play offs, determining champions, promotions, relegations and potential reconstruction, into a single package, led to unnecessary argument and division between the member clubs. Had each of those issues been voted on individually, then we may have ended up with the same outcome, or perhaps not. We will never know. What we do know is that most clubs voted for their own self interest, perhaps on a single element of the package that was most critical to them.
Hearts were not waiting for a further payment. As ND pointed out earlier today, the teams in 6th and 12th place have already been advanced and received amounts equivalent to their full fee payment for the season, with other clubs receiving a bit more in anticipation of their final positions. I doubt that Ann Budge is facing personal financial difficulties. However, Hearts like every other club will be facing financial difficulties.
Despite ND’s statement, I’m uncertain whether Hibs (currently 6th) has been overpaid as a result, given that they will end up in 7th place if/when PPG is applied to determine the final positions (the difference in final fees payable between 6th and 7th is £125k).
The clubs’ vote was a necessary precursor for the implementation of the SPFL Board’s resolution, as it involved changes to the SPFL’s Articles for the use of PPG to determine final league positions. The fact that the clubs were able to do that illustrates that the clubs could equally have voted for a range of other changes to the Articles permitting alternative solutions to be implemented, had the Board not insisted on a single solution.
reasonablechap 2nd May 2020 at 18:20
He may be using Rangers TV interviews as his template . Avoids awkward questions .
paddy malarkey
2nd May 2020 at 20:47
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Auldheid 2nd May 2020 at 20:10
They could have paid out minimum guaranteed earnings eg all in top 6 in Premiership get 6th place prize money , 6-12 get 12th place money . The other divisions could be dealt with the same way – minimum guaranteed based on present poits total . The residue to be paid out once league positions are finalise.
……………
The SFA suspended all football on 13th March.
What you are suggesting is, I think, almost exactly what the SPFL did when making the scheduled advance of fee payments in April.
I listened to BBCsportsound today and ND explained loans and advanced pre payments about 3 times. ND in between the lines seemed a bit pissed of with this requisition and the EMG taking place on 12 May (basically in his opinion wasting valuable time). He really sounded convincing, and was really bemused of what case he had to answer to. I heard the SFA medical expert/doctor lay out the case that this season is vitually over. Now if on the 12 May the Ibrox club lose the vote, which is very likely, then if I was ND I would state season over and award Celtic the title as soon as. Ibrox club should not be delaying the planned future of our game.
valentinesclown 2nd May 2020 at 21:19
That makes sense, if this resolution fails I would expect them to finalise the season for the top division shortly thereafter.
That would not involve them "awarding" Celtic anything. It would simply be a case that Celtic would become champions, being top of the league when it finished.
HirsutePursuit 2nd May 2020 at 21:16
paddy malarkey
2nd May 2020 at 20:47
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They could have paid out minimum guaranteed earnings eg all in top 6 in Premiership get 6th place prize money , 6-12 get 12th place money . The other divisions could be dealt with the same way – minimum guaranteed based on present poits total . The residue to be paid out once league positions are finalise.
……………
The SFA suspended all football on 13th March.
What you are suggesting is, I think, almost exactly what the SPFL did when making the scheduled advance of fee payments in April.
…………………………………………………………
The problem is the disparity between 2nd place prize money and 6th place which is skewed in the way that the Big Two fixed it when they ran the show for their benefit only.
It’s not a lot of dough in terms of what Sevco need but I’m convinced it is to pay for their “financial restructuring” otherwise known as Administration.
They are angry because they can’t get their hands on it before going into Admin and the Doomsday clock is one minute from midnight. If they go into Admin, depending on the points deduction, they could end up as low as 5th place and the prize money you get that far down is a lot less.
The SPFL know they are going to implode and don’t want to give them money they are not really entitled to. They tried to buy a League that Celtic own already.
I’ve done no research.
HirsutePursuit 2nd May 2020 at 21:16
And was summat I proposed way back then , although I think the problem is the enforced provision of loans rather than the quantum .
From the 'Retail Gazette'
https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2020/02/castore-secures-7-5m-to-fund-expansion/
“Castore creates products that enhance athlete’s performance and we look forward to more leading athletes benefiting from our truly innovative technologies.”
Surely they're not into pharmaceuticals?
Bogs Dollox 2nd May 2020 at 21:47
'…I’ve done no research.'
"""""""""""""""""""
Ha, ha, BD. You're not really one of the following , are you? ….Tom English/Keef/Chick/Kenny Mac/ or any of many other SMSM hacks?
the Rangers European Licence.
All the noise from ibrox looks like it boils down to not wanting to show they are desperate for money. If they have put forward their application for a european licence and made out everything is ok cash wise, how then do you explain you need a loan or an advance or a sub or a tap to see you to season ticket time, after just applying for a european licence?
……
Hope you can see where i’m coming from.
John Clark 2nd May 2020 at 21:52
From the 'Retail Gazette'
https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2020/02/castore-secures-7-5m-to-fund-expansion/
—————————————————
As far as I can establish from Companies House records, Castore is a trading name for J.Carter Sporting Club Limited (09670915).
On the basis of when the timing of Andy Murray's "investment" was made public (March 19), there was an an allotment of shares in April 19 which raised around £1.5m. I don't know if Murray subscribed for all or part of that share issue. There is no corresponding entry for an individual holding of all those shares, nor is there any indication of Murray holding shares in his own name in a subsequent confirmation statement.
The company certainly looks ambitious in terms of the funds that it has raised over the last year or two, but we will have to wait and see what clout they have in the retail business.
Ballyargus 2nd May 2020 at 17:39
'.. I assume that Jim Spence is one but for the life of me I can't fathom who the other could be.'
""""""""""""""""""""""
Ballyargus, I tend to use the phrase 'one or two' when I wouldn't feel absolutely sure that there wasn't more than one but would feel absolutely sure that there weren't many more than one!
The EBT-documentary maker comes to mind from a number of years ago….
Reasonablechap@20.33
Mine too. It’s the volte face of our intrepid reporter that I find interesting.
John Clark 2nd May 2020 at 21:57
Bogs Dollox 2nd May 2020 at 21:47
'…I’ve done no research.'
"""""""""""""""""""
Ha, ha, BD. You're not really one of the following , are you? ….Tom English/Keef/Chick/Kenny Mac/ or any of many other SMSM hacks?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No.
I'm afraid I never have been.
Many years ago I used to be a paperboy (41 DR's, 2 Heralds, 1 Sun, 1 Guardian) and always read the DR from back to front even at 14 it was obvious that it was a shitrag.
But 40 odd years ago they had Sports Reporters of note. Things were a bit more honest.
I recall Scotland playing Chile in 1977 in the stadium where 3,000 socialists and communists had been murdred by Pinochet. As a 15 year old it made a big impression on me. It was called the "match of shame". Despite protests it went ahead. The SFA making wrong decisions since time began.
Ballyargus 2nd May 2020 at 17:39
ps to my immediately previous post
In the matter of the word 'miscry', have a look at
https://www.scotslanguage.com/articles/node/id/373
The Yellow on the Broom
I ken ye dinna like it lass tae winter here in toon
For the scaldies aye miscry us and they try tae bring us doon
It's hard tae raise three bairnies in a single flea box room
But I'll tak ye on the road again when yellow's on the broom
https://twitter.com/thescotsman/status/1256623767121428480?s=21
Unfair play? Whatever next?
Aye – the auld Scots tongue right enough John!
… and there's plenty mair fae Adam Mc Naughton's songs.
Ahm awa' tae dig some oot! (I need some light relief after another day of Civil Warring so to speak)
Apologies for going off at a slight tangent!!
easyJambo 2nd May 2020 at 21:08 Edit
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Auldheid 2nd May 2020 at 20:10
Do they feel hard done by not because any resolution that required league placings gave Celtic the title but because they could not and cannot wait until that placing decision is taken or is it a combination of both?
Is that why they shouted foul but as time passes are having to recognise title placings will be decided on sporting merit and SPFL have no option for reasons ND explained to make payments dependent on placings?
It does not help that the two top tier clubs most affected by a tie to fixing league placings are Hearts because of relegation and finances since Anne Budge has made it clear, unlike her Ibrox counterparts, Hearts (and her I imagine ) face financial difficulties that a payout would help Hearts deal with.
================================
It has been stated on here several times over that the conflation of releasing funds, tied to ending the season, abandoning play offs, determining champions, promotions, relegations and potential reconstruction, into a single package, led to unnecessary argument and division between the member clubs. Had each of those issues been voted on individually, then we may have ended up with the same outcome, or perhaps not. We will never know. What we do know is that most clubs voted for their own self interest, perhaps on a single element of the package that was most critical to them.
Hearts were not waiting for a further payment. As ND pointed out earlier today, the teams in 6th and 12th place have already been advanced and received amounts equivalent to their full fee payment for the season, with other clubs receiving a bit more in anticipation of their final positions. I doubt that Ann Budge is facing personal financial difficulties. However, Hearts like every other club will be facing financial difficulties.
Despite ND’s statement, I’m uncertain whether Hibs (currently 6th) has been overpaid as a result, given that they will end up in 7th place if/when PPG is applied to determine the final positions (the difference in final fees payable between 6th and 7th is £125k).
The clubs’ vote was a necessary precursor for the implementation of the SPFL Board’s resolution, as it involved changes to the SPFL’s Articles for the use of PPG to determine final league positions. The fact that the clubs were able to do that illustrates that the clubs could equally have voted for a range of other changes to the Articles permitting alternative solutions to be implemented, had the Board not insisted on a single solution.
=============
Id forgotten ND saying bottom 6 in top tier paid out so that takes Hearts need for the money out of the equation, but still leaves was it the placing element Hearts objected to? I can well understand that given the cost of relegation, but TRFC!
What is in it for them? What would they be losing in money terms under what was eventually agreed by required majority? The difference between 1st and 2nd place prize money? Access to the CL?
On what performance related basis could such an argument be made if, as now seems inevitable, games cannot be played? Same goes for Hearts although gap narrower between bottom and second bottom than 1st and 2nd.
ND was at pains to say no reasonable alternative had been put forward but even if it had, I'm asking what would it have changed in terms of using current league placings to determine payout?
If alternative was dependent on playing the outstanding games, which everyone wanted, rather than placing teams on current position, how realistic is that position now and is it not a bridge that will have to be crossed anyway?
I can understand the annoyance of Hearts (and Thistle) and sympathise but what other solution would have kept Hearts (and Thistle ) up that did not affect the league structures? Hearts stay up but Dundee Utd don't get promoted or they do creating a 14 team top tier that a number of clubs might have objected to?
Maybe that is why the SPFL did not want to propose such an alternative, because it either might not have been passed, delaying payouts, because the majority of top tier clubs wouldn't want a 14 team top tier with the consequential cut of the cake leaving them less in order to save Hearts from relegation?
I'm trying to cut through the arguments to identify the motivation behind them and whilst I think the way the vote news came out along with a key vote being changed provided reasons for suspicions to be raised, I don't think the SPFL's motivation can be confirmed in the absence of a document of evidence that shows they got the desired result by wrongful means.
Did the SPFL get what they wanted? Pretty sure, that is how they operate, we know that. Was it unjust or unfair in the circumstances and to whom? That remains to be proved.
I had some sympathy for Michael Stewart's arguments at the time but I think events have overtaken them, which is I think where I came in.
@Ex Ludo
"Unfair play? Whatever next?"
would it be presumptuous to suggest "we were duped"
Why not release the evidence now? Why release a statement saying a new kit deal will be announced imminently instead of waiting until the new kit deal was signed ,sealed and delivered? Is Ashley still to decide if he wants to match the rights ? Is Stewart Robertson aware of the details of the damning evidence against Doncaster and Co , if not why not ? If he is why has he not brought it to the attention of the Chairman of the SPFL (a board he sits on) which would be his duty. Robertson's position is untenable and Doncaster should have made that clear .
I think the wheels are going to come off this Castore spin soon enough…
TRFC must be off their trolley to come up with this latest retail / kit bollox.
It must be a madhouse inside the TRFC offices just now.
Dreaming up any positive stories at all, whilst the staff are busy bailing out the water from the sinking wreck.
@Auldheid
I believe they are going down , they know they are going down , the SFA and SPFL know they are going down , there is no Craig Whyte,no Charles Green and no cunning plan . It's all about deflection , the finger pointing, tears , tantrums and endless squirrels are all pointing to the fat Lady clearing her throat. You know things are bad when Niall gets a new ISP and a new identity .
Why don’t the 41 senior clubs simply vote to tell the Ibrox club to p!ss off?
Remove the Ibrox circus and clowns for good.
Banish them from Scottish football. Let them join an English league, or any league who will take them: who cares?
Everybody and every club is hurting financially just now, so the removal of ‘the blue pound’ could just get lost in the mix.
Could be a small price to pay for Scottish football to – finally – cut out this malignant influence, and move on to a brighter, progressive future in the Scottish game.
God knows, it’s long overdue…
Regards EJ and Auldheids discussion,
May be it’s me getting confused but if teams have already been paid out cash based on league positions what exactly does the circa £7.2m owed to Premiership clubs cover?
Is it directly related to final positions and who is it that gets the cash?
If, as discussed by EJ and AH , is it true the bottom six have been given final paid outs already based on positions ?
If so why have the top six not been paid in a similar fashion as clearly it cannot be linked to ‘final – final’positions.
Is this maybe what T’Rangers are hacked off as they see no reason for the much needed cash not to be released?
Cluster One 2nd May 2020 at 22:00
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the Rangers European Licence.
All the noise from ibrox looks like it boils down to not wanting to show they are desperate for money. If they have put forward their application for a european licence and made out everything is ok cash wise, how then do you explain you need a loan or an advance or a sub or a tap to see you to season ticket time, after just applying for a european licence?
……
Hope you can see where i’m coming from.
================
The current timetable for applying for a license differs by days but in 2011 the deadline for submitting an application with accounts audited to specific standards for annual and Interim (which were used then) was 31st March and date for informing UEFA 26th May 2011. The licence itself was granted on 19th April which suggest SFA are in possession of relevant accounts. However there are confidentiality clauses round licensing which SFA could use as an excuse not to grass.
Any journalist worth his assault would have asked SFA if a licence had been granted unconditionally.
Auldheid 3rd May 2020 at 01:02
…
Any journalist worth his assault would have asked SFA if a licence had been granted unconditionally.
====
Absolutely, Auldheid!
The SMSM journalists should have been assaulting the SFA long before 2011!
wottpi 3rd May 2020 at 00:39
Is this maybe what T’Rangers are hacked off as they see no reason for the much needed cash not to be released?
========================================
Advances are made periodically during the course of the season, but pre-virus that was a relatively low risk scenario. I think from the SPFL's position post-virus, it became ultra high-risk. Even with maximum payouts from a finalised league there are no survival guarantees. An advance made to a club who still went bust could create a domino effect upon the surviving clubs due to being short-changed because of the lost advancement made. (The Gretna scenario)
There would be hell to pay with litigation aplenty from disadvantaged short-changed clubs already struggling. On top, if 1 club went under, technically, surviving clubs should finish 1 pos higher. If 3 clubs, 3 places etc…. The position/reward gap greater, ergo the loss more severe….It would be so messy.
With the leagues called they are finalised. Positions are cast in stone. Every club has been paid its dues. It may well still go under, but there are less ripples caused by it. That is why the leagues needed called before a pay-out, percentage, or in full, could be made. 7th spot is still 7th even if the 6 above fall, taking any pay-out with them. 7th spot cannot claim the substantially richer 1st prize. That money has been lost.
It really does feel unnatural defending the SPFL, and Doncaster in particular, but in this instance they have took the only viable option available to them.
When the Pish starts to Spout,
Interim Accounts aren't out,
That's Castore.
When a reasonable chap,
Rehashes old crap,
That's Castore.
When posts make it clear,
You are quite clearly Steer,
That's Castore.
When The Lawman got pushed,
When Ernest got shushed,
That's Castore.
When the mask finally slips,
That's when he'll get his chips,
That's Castore.
When he runs out of luck,
When he's told GTF,
That's Cast… Of Thousands?
But all immediately identifiable.
Must try harder.
Remember the heady days when each post received three digit Thumbs Down? A shadow of his former self and that wasn't too substantial.
I await the inevitable Phase Two: Less reasonableness; less chappy-like behaviour; more rudeness; more egotism; more deflection; more dogmatic pronouncements; more insults.
History should tell us the kind thing to do is cut out the middle man and go straight to Phase Three: The Order Of The Boot.
There must be a large number of sites suffering from Repetitive Big Toe Strain Syndrome from having to boot him back to whichever swamp he usually infests.
Auldheid 3rd May 2020 at 01:02
The licence itself was granted on 19th April which suggest SFA are in possession of relevant accounts. However there are confidentiality clauses round licensing which SFA could use as an excuse not to grass.
Any journalist worth his assault would have asked SFA if a licence had been granted unconditionally.
……………..
A good journalist…. Dear SFA The rangers look like a basket case desperate for money. Did you grant them a licence on the 19th April 2020?
Have the ibrox club given you assurances of their cash reserves.
Have you seen their accounts? Are you happy to grant a licence?
With questions remaining of the granting of a licence in 2011, you don’t want to go down that road with an ibrox club again.
To your knowledge is everything in order to grant a licence?
What is at the bottom of the current controversy in Scottish football ?
It is how the SPFL went about trying to find a solution to various extraordinary issues that the Leagues and it’s members face.
At best, it was rushed, cackhanded and clumsy.
The detail that is already out there suggests that the whole process was a all-in-one force fit that was railroaded through with scant regard for governance.
The one thing that the SPFL board have done with a degree of energy and visibility wasn’t to immediately address issues and show leadership. It has been the media campaign these past few days to try and effectively neutralise the issue as a threat to the status quo. But even the way that has been done suggests they have things to hide.
The issue at the bottom of this, is the governance of the SPFL.
To those who today say just move-on, there is a crisis to address. I’d counter, why would you trust the same people to navigate a path through the approaching storm?
Posters who think the bigger issue is about motives of certain clubs seem to overlook the above very easily and forget one of the main guiding principles of this community regards holding governing authorities to account. The motives of clubs can be summed up as self-interest. Beyond that, it’s something that people can obviously speculate upon but in this situation, it isn’t the core issue.
I’m not suggesting ignore eveything else but would suggest it better not to lose sight of why this all kicked off and to date, it’s not been put to bed.
ps. I don’t mind the thumbs down and I wouldn’t expect anything else but if replying, please play the ball and not the man.
Irony; some people should look up the meaning!
"To those who today say just move-on, there is a crisis to address".
I mean seriously!
2012.
Corrupt official
3rd May 2020 at 01:54
I get where you are coming from but the logic isn't being followed through.
If lower league clubs needed both certainty and cash for future planning and survival then the same must be true for some Premiership clubs.
I can think of one at least from the south of the Clyde and St Johnstone's finances were reported as being on a shoogly peg recently.
The SPFL is on one hand saying they need to help some clubs immediately by releasing cash but at the same time potentially risk a premiership club going bust by not releasing cash now.
Are we saying that if, for example Livingston, found on Monday they had run out of cash the SPFL board would deny a request for an advance payment in the minimum amount that the club would have been expected to recover at the end of this month for the fear they may go out of business in June.
If the directors were going to spend it on bevy fair enough but surely the SPFL should be taking all steps possible to assist member clubs to survive.
Therefore once again what is the £7.2m remaining in the pot made up from and who is it owed to and by what amounts.
It appears to me that the money has been earned to date for the games already played so far and other deals 're advertising etc as outlined by Doncaster yesterday.
Regardless of whether or not a club looks like going under they still deserve to receive what is rightfully theirs.
A release of the minimum amount expected and holding back a smaller balance still seems to me to be a solution that covers all bases.
It would also have shut up any clubs who were perhaps desperate for hard cash.
In summary the resolution should have said, agree to advance payments immediately on current positions. Vote by Good Friday recommended but given the 28 day rule agree that if no movement regards the virus situation all divisions would be called on 15th May. Last two weeks in May would see the nominal balances paid out based of PPG formula to determine final placing.
The leverage of paying out cash immediately would have most probably resulted in the same votes but would have shut T'Rangers up from the outset.
The club's being relegated or missing out on playoffs are hard done by either way.
While i am logged on. To any one wondering what happened
with my "complaint" I assume it must have been good, as I
have not heard a thing back yet!!!! OFCOM, BBC,SMSM.
They have a lot to answer for. Someday Karma will visit.
Could one of the worthy's answer this for me please?
I was told yesterday that it is in the rules that "a team must be
relegated from the top division". Is that true?
Finally, there are so many great posters on here, but there is one
i always enjoy reading, Thanks to StevieBC.
reasonablechap 3rd May 2020 at 10:23
To be clear I absolutely detest Doncaster. I wouldn't trust him with the cash float for a tuck shop and the man should have been punted in 2012. But having listened to him yesterday, accepting the point about only one interviewer, my concern was not about governance. That seems to be the one bit he does know. He moulds it to fit of course. But crucially he doesn't appear to go beyond boundaries. I'll at least credit him with that.
Auldheid
the Rangers European Licence.
All the noise from ibrox looks like it boils down to not wanting to show they are desperate for money. If they have put forward their application for a european licence and made out everything is ok cash wise, how then do you explain you need a loan or an advance or a sub or a tap to see you to season ticket time, after just applying for a european licence?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I think finance is a challenge or soon will be for most clubs. In the second half of the season, cashflow can often be an issue and different clubs find different ways to address it.
I've seen numerous theories on here and elsewhere during the last few years that saw Rangers in administration within X weeks/months. They haven't even been close to it because there have been individuals willing to finance what was termed as a structured loss. Up until now, this has been kept within FFP rules.
Wrt your theory, do you have evidence of Rangers looking for loan/advance/tap just after applying for a European licence ?
Dependent on how the health crisis plays out in relation to both Scottish and European football, there may well be serious problems for the Ibrox club to address but IMO, I think that would be further down the line.
Sorry to the blog if Im being incredibly slow. My memory was SPL cash was forwarded to Gretna to complete their fixtures? Did they not do that, and thus forfeited the 12th place fee that would have been due to them anyway? Im still not following how moneys were forwarded AND lost. Confused.
Auldheid 2nd May 2020 at 23:09
Id forgotten ND saying bottom 6 in top tier paid out so that takes Hearts need for the money out of the equation, but still leaves was it the placing element Hearts objected to? I can well understand that given the cost of relegation, but TRFC!
It may need another listen to the podcast to confirm exactly what ND said. My recollection was that it was the 6th and the 12th teams who had received full payment (effectively the minimum that they would receive after the split), which would at least make some sense. MS also seemed to pick it up as the bottom six, but I think he was wrong.
What is in it for them? What would they be losing in money terms under what was eventually agreed by required majority? The difference between 1st and 2nd place prize money? Access to the CL?
On what performance related basis could such an argument be made if, as now seems inevitable, games cannot be played? Same goes for Hearts although gap narrower between bottom and second bottom than 1st and 2nd.
ND was at pains to say no reasonable alternative had been put forward but even if it had, I'm asking what would it have changed in terms of using current league placings to determine payout?
Money could have been paid out in full to all premiership clubs based on current positions, with a correcting settlement next season had the remaining games eventually been played and positions altered.
If alternative was dependent on playing the outstanding games, which everyone wanted, rather than placing teams on current position, how realistic is that position now and is it not a bridge that will have to be crossed anyway?
I agree it is no longer realistic to expect games to be played so the split of prize money would have been based on current positions (or PPG) as above. The argument against early distribution that clubs might go bust is a red herring. The money would be due to clubs anyway as soon a the season was called. Neither the SPFL or the other clubs would be losing out in cash terms. The SFA/SPFL rules on insolvency would ensure that football creditors are repaid in full following any CVA or in TRFC's case phoenixing.
I can understand the annoyance of Hearts (and Thistle) and sympathise but what other solution would have kept Hearts (and Thistle ) up that did not affect the league structures? Hearts stay up but Dundee Utd don't get promoted or they do creating a 14 team top tier that a number of clubs might have objected to?
There are solutions that would have saved Hearts and Thistle without reconstruction. "Null and void" and "no promotion or relegation" are two, although I wouldn't advocate either. In my view a "no relegation and a temporary reconstruction" (although I would prefer a permanent change) was an eminently, fair, practical and sensible one in the exceptional circumstances. Even the Lowland League, East of Scotland League and the new West of Scotland League, all within the pyramid, have adopted that approach.
Maybe that is why the SPFL did not want to propose such an alternative, because it either might not have been passed, delaying payouts, because the majority of top tier clubs wouldn't want a 14 team top tier with the consequential cut of the cake leaving them less in order to save Hearts from relegation?
There was no need to delay payments, as noted above. Any temporary reconstruction would have seen the top tier return to the previous set up after a year or two, unless clubs voted to continue it or make it permanent. Do you really think that there will be a full 38 game league season played in 2020/21? That in itself could be described as a temporary reconstruction. If the season is shortened, say to 22 games (two rounds of fixtures), would you consider it possible that top tier clubs would vote for no relegation in those exceptional circumstances? I do. Your comment of cutting the cake is a valid one and may well be the self interest reason for clubs to vote against ANY reconstruction proposal.
I'm trying to cut through the arguments to identify the motivation behind them and whilst I think the way the vote news came out along with a key vote being changed provided reasons for suspicions to be raised, I don't think the SPFL's motivation can be confirmed in the absence of a document of evidence that shows they got the desired result by wrongful means.
Agreed, although by conflating all the elements that I described in my earlier post, it served to obtain a lot of individual decisions in a single vote. My question is also one of motivation. Who on the SPFL Board was the driving force behind the composition of the various elements of the resolution, the presentation of it as a single take it or leave it option, and the requested short timescales? I know that three clubs represented on the SPFL board all benefited significantly by the removal of any risk of relegation either automatically or via a play off.
Did the SPFL get what they wanted? Pretty sure, that is how they operate, we know that. Was it unjust or unfair in the circumstances and to whom? That remains to be proved.
The question for me was how did they determine what the wanted. What was it that the Board wanted to achieve. Whatever solution they came up with should have recognised the exceptional circumstances that we are all experiencing and set out not to exert a significant disadvantage on any single club. Some clubs were in need of cash. Some clubs were on the verge of titles and others had chances of promotion. UEFA places had to be confirmed. At the other end of the table a number of clubs were all at risk of relegation. To my mind, enforced relegation as a result of the votes of other clubs, some with the self interest of survival, while others were only interested in getting some cash, was both wrong and unfair. I view it as a punishment. By that, I mean the actual imposition of a relegation that was previously just a risk. That actuality is on a different scale to the loss of an opportunity for clubs to achieve promotion through the play-offs.
I had some sympathy for Michael Stewart's arguments at the time but I think events have overtaken them, which is I think where I came in.
I think we are all finding the same arguments as tiresome and repetitive, but the way you describe events as having overtaken them is akin to saying that "decisions have been made so we should move on". With your own experience of "moving on" in the context of the Res 12 issue, I'm sure that you still harbour hopes of righting the wrongs that were done in 2011 and thereafter and you want structures put in place that can prevent such errors being repeated. That's where I came in.
https://twitter.com/rangerstaxcase
Smugas
To be clear I absolutely detest Doncaster. I wouldn't trust him with the cash float for a tuck shop and the man should have been punted in 2012. But having listened to him yesterday, accepting the point about only one interviewer, my concern was not about governance. That seems to be the one bit he does know. He moulds it to fit of course. But crucially he doesn't appear to go beyond boundaries. I'll at least credit him with that.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Thanks for the reply Smugas !
Whilst Doncaster might have been convincing in his delivery in a one on one with Richard Gordon, he didn't put the particular issue focused upon, to bed.
The underlying theme of the SPFL carefully managed media campaign has been to avoid real transparency. Whether that be the Q & A's to self or interview only if specific condition requested of the BBC are met.
IMO it only re-enforces the impression they have things to hide.
reasonablechap 3rd May 2020 at 11:07
Up until now, this has been kept within FFP rules.
Where's the evidence of this ? If it's only your opinion , mine is that they don't comply but have no figures /statements to prove either way . These things should be posted on SPFL website , with no regard given to clubs' squeals of commercial confidentiality . I think I'll suggest just that to UEFA .
Watcher
Irony; some people should look up the meaning!
“To those who today say just move-on, there is a crisis to address”.
I mean seriously!
2012.
%%%%%%%%%%
That was 2012. Today is 2020.
Some might term referring to 8 years ago as whataboutery or even a large squirrel. The point being is that for many on here, 2012 will always be above all what needs to be addressed, even if that means overlooking the present. I think this will probably be generational and if Scottish fitbaw was to have a similar line-up of clubs in 20 years, we might have moved-on, not that I would bet on it or still be here to see it.
2012: Clubs, including Celtic aren’t really interested though, are they? Comes down to the same old thing. For Celtic PLC it’s about commercial self interest.
ps. 2012 and 2020…….. Common denominator: Neil Doncaster
Easyjambo (&Auldheid), 11.10am
If only we could hear or read a question and answers session or a presentation of alternative views of that calibre on the media !
Reasonablechap@12.19
2012 and 2020 common denominator = Doncaster.
A few more common denominators than ND in this particular equation surely?
Paddy 12.06, agreed. Why should these figures be confidential? What happened to transparency? These are public firms who have to be open with their financial accounts twice a year usually. Although we are still waiting on the overdue ‘interims’ from Ibrox. However as I understand it, because they are not listed on a stock exchange they are not obliged to publish interims. How handy!
Noticed this when I sent the email – maybe where some of the money appeared from .
https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/newsid=2641748.html
paddy malarkey 3rd May 2020 at 12:06
…mine is that they don't comply but have no figures /statements to prove either way
______
Not quite correct, Paddy, for we do have their last set of accounts to go by that included, not only a going concern warning, but a note that there was a £10m hole in their projected profit/loss. A hole that has only been partially filled by a now non-director's loan while liabilities, at the time of the accounts, have increased by quite a few million as a result of signing, still to be paid for, high cost players.
Not only could they rightly be said to be at least 'on the cusp of breaking FFP regulations', there is undeniable evidence that they've played fast and loose with those regulations by spending money they don't have to benefit in the very way that the FFP regulations were brought in to stop.
Perhaps not evidence that would hold up in court, but in the world of reasonable opinion there's a hell of a lot more to indicate a failure to comply with FFP than there is to suggest otherwise; that is, of course, in a world where jiggery-pokery of figures, and getting away with it because the governing body is 'on your side', is non-existent.
wottpi 3rd May 2020 at 10:51
Corrupt official
Sorry wottpi, but I can’t provide a breakdown of the remaining pay-out dues, other than the sum left, is what is intended to be the final settlements upon the league completion, and is configured in line with those final placings. I have attached the “starting block” pay-outs below, but I don’t think thats what you’re asking.
The vote was called originally to assist the lower divisions getting payment. The Prem was omitted due to UEFA’s entry requirements stance at the time. It was not subject to the vote, (i.e. call the league as final), but it is subject to the same precedent.
In the case you mention, Livingstone, I assume as a random choice, I’m sure it would be assessed on an individual basis. Two lower div clubs did ask for a “breathing space” loan, but withdrew the request upon the league’s vote to finalise the division and make the full payments.
I don’t know if Sevco do, or don’t want a loan, or even if it would be granted, nor do I know if they wanted position payments forwarded without calling the league. I’m not sure they even know what they want, as they have changed stance on numerous occasions, but I don’t think any other Prem clubs have requested breathing space loans to date. They may still, but as it stands the Prem has not yet been finalised. (UEFA, and indeed the indications are the clubs wish to give completion every chance).
However, making payments en masse to all 12 clubs is not feasible as credit checks for all would take time for clubs to compile, and the SPFL to audit before a yea or nay could be provided. The argument being that next season’s preparation is a better use of time.
From what I can ascertain, maximum payments have already been paid that position fluctuations allow, should the division be played out….The final placings though, can not only fluctuate due to games won or lost, but also by the very real fact clubs may disappear, and any monies paid, going to the receiver.
As another ahem, random example. If Sevco were to receive part payment, but go bust, that black hole is tens of millions of pounds deep. It is gone. Lost to the game forever….But…….If the division is called and paid in full, its still gone, but they were entitled to the payment. No other club is affected.
Clubs have zero entitlement to any prize money whatsoever, if they do not complete the season. In fact if they do not finish the season, they disappear forever. (I know, I know). To pay more than what they have already been advanced during less troubled times, would be foolish, as (a) they did not complete the season, and (b) it is money in the hands of receivers, which to all intents and purposes, should have been awarded to surviving clubs whose final placings would/should be advanced. This shortfall of payments would leave the SPFL in danger of litigation, which in turn leads to more infighting, as the SPFL is in actual fact the clubs themselves.
Calling the divisions, making the payments, Everything is clean. It is decided. It’s over. Onwards and upwards
No club has a claim on any other club or the SPFL itself. Every club has received its just reward. It’s fair….Not perfect, but as fair as its going to get.
https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-prize-pot-reaches-25m
Smugas
3rd May 2020 at 11:07
3 0 Rate This
Sorry to the blog if Im being incredibly slow. My memory was SPL cash was forwarded to Gretna to complete their fixtures? Did they not do that, and thus forfeited the 12th place fee that would have been due to them anyway? Im still not following how moneys were forwarded AND lost. Confused.
………..
Think the fee advance included some/all of the parachute payment Gretna (had it survived) would have been entitled to receive to prepare for life in the lower division.
Since it did not take its place in the Championship, I believe the league considered that it was entitled to ask for a refund of that element.
Thanks HP
I never thought of a parachute payment – I was obsessing on the 'positional' fee payment!
No arguement from me there. But they dont get to pick and choose which elements they wish to be transparent on, nor do they get to selectively pick which they will be questioned on, nor, for that matter, do the journalists get to either!
EJ
…
What happens if 20 of the 42 clubs go bust and no replacement clubs are formed?
The football creditor rules would only come into force if a newly formed club was seeking to transfer the membership of an existing club. Whilst I'm sure that some may attempt to do so, I suspect (given the timescales) not too many would succeed – especially if they wanted to be up and running for next season.
How many genuine potential buyers were there for the assets of the last football club in Scotland that ceased trading?
How many buyers do you imagine there will be, in the current circumstances, for the assets of up to 20 failed clubs?
HirsutePursuit 3rd May 2020 at 13:38
EJ … I agree it is no longer realistic to expect games to be played so the split of prize money would have been based on current positions (or PPG) as above. The argument against early distribution that clubs might go bust is a red herring. The money would be due to clubs anyway as soon a the season was called. Neither the SPFL or the other clubs would be losing out in cash terms. The SFA/SPFL rules on insolvency would ensure that football creditors are repaid in full following any CVA or in TRFC's case phoenixing.
___________
What happens if 20 of the 42 clubs go bust and no replacement clubs are formed? The football creditor rules would only come into force if a newly formed club was seeking to transfer the membership of an existing club. Whilst I'm sure that some may attempt to do so, I suspect (given the timescales) not too many would succeed – especially if they wanted to be up and running for next season. How many genuine potential buyers were there for the assets of the last football club in Scotland that ceased trading? How many buyers do you imagine there will be, in the current circumstances, for the assets of up to 20 failed clubs?
_______________
I'm not sure of the actual legal position regarding the prize money, but if it is actually owed to the clubs then it will be due to them whether they go into administration/liquidation or not. If they fall into administration, but survive, that money is not lost for it undoubtedly helped the club stay afloat, though if the club is liquidated, a la Rangers, then the money is lost to the game along with the club.
Again, though, I don't know if the distribution of prize money is contracted in such a way that it is due to the clubs only if they complete the season or if, as members, it is already due to them, but as the first stage of any insolvency is almost always administration (which would probably take us past the last day of the season) then, regardless of when the money is paid out, the money will be paid to the administrators and lost if they don't achieve a CVA. As things stand, I doubt even TRFC are going to fall into liquidation before the last day of the season so whatever happens they/their administrators are going to get their share of the prize money.
While in administration, Hearts (and other clubs in similar positions) were paid out prize money which undoubtedly helped save them from the same fate as Rangers.
So, basically, if the legal position is that the prize money is owed to the clubs, but only due at a set date, then that money will be lost through liquidation regardless of when that money is paid out, but I don't know if the contract states that it only becomes due if the club completes the season intact (ie not in liquidation) which might change that, but I doubt it.
Allyjambo 3rd May 2020 at 12:37
Perhaps I should have said "credible".
Corrupt official
3rd May 2020 at 12:44
The fact the we and others are still debating this is proof positive that Doncaster did not address the matter of ;-
a) Was the option if advance payments ever considered?
and
b) If not why not?
Any responses he gave yesterday lacked clarity and went no where near the detail you have provided. And your well developed thoughts, arguments and considerations are from someone on the 'outside'.
You would have thought Doncaster being on the 'inside' would have and decent and better answers to hand to deal with what was going to be an obvious question, but he didn't.
Richard Gordon pressed him a few times but we got no-where near an open and transparent answer.
If Doncaster had been in court and gave such a performance I doubt a judge would have been overly impressed.
Once again we fans are left trying to make sense of decisions of the footballing authorities as opposed to them being made in a manner that the paying customer can see as being logical, sensible and well considered.
I don't expect them to always get things 100% correct or manage to please everyone but they do seem to be consistent in mismanaging key situations and pissing people off, one way or another.
Fresh news on the release of the evidence to the 41 clubs.
According to The Sun (Devlin) it will be within 72 hours.
That would give the clubs ample time to consider the contents. A damm sight longer than the SPFL gave the clubs to consider the resolution in question.
Not long to wait now………
paddy malarkey 3rd May 2020 at 14:22
Allyjambo 3rd May 2020 at 12:37 Perhaps I should have said "credible".
======
I think the going concern warning and the statement of the £10m hole were very credible.
I guess that gives TRFC a final 72 hours then,
to negotiate / threaten / dare I say bully?
the SPFL and other clubs,
to get what it wants / concessions,
in return for dropping its complaints.
Otherwise, TRFC would have happily released their 'evidence' immediately – you would think…?
wottpi 3rd May 2020 at 14:24
Corrupt official 3rd May 2020 at 12:44
The fact the we and others are still debating this is proof positive that Doncaster did not address the matter of ;-
a) Was the option if advance payments ever considered? and
b) If not why not?
=============================
To be fair he was battling an agenda laden interview that was only looking for certain answers, and as a result, limited and repeated questions. Most of what I have said has been gleaned during lockdown, from various sources, which is a timeframe not available for radio.
However he did point out that hundreds of pages were studied by himself and fellow directors/ staff, with many issues discussed and addressed in an attempt to come up with suitable options.
I would imagine those discussions would not be dis-similar to discussions/debates on SFM, and with a similar spectrum of fan widths, only differing in so much as they would have a wee bit more insider knowledge ….They even have a wee disruptive troll in Robertson.
100% agreement is simply not always possible and sometimes its the lesser of two evils that prevails. I think that as things go, timeframes available, and target aims, they are genuinely doing their best. In unprecedented circumstances perfection is a big ask.
If all of the fees had been paid – but the season left open, there are a couple of scenarios that I imagine could play out.
Under the first scenario and the season actually restarts (say, June/July), some clubs may not be in a position to do so and be forced to forfeit some/all remaining games.
Under either option, insolvency events may occur before the season is finalised and clubs would automatically incur points penalties. Such penalties can be appealed, but those appeals would open up a new set of hugely expensive and potentially explosive choices for the appeal bodies.
Again, under either scenario, some clubs may cease trading and be expelled from the league.
Until the league season is finalised, the positions can change quite substantially (even if no further games are played) and underpayments/overpayments would need to be reconciled.
Clubs falling into liquidation cannot be compelled to refund overpayments.
Whether you think it is possible, probable or certain that clubs will go under before the season is finalised, the SPFL would have been at that same risk of having made fee overpayments that could not be recovered.
As a positive choice, that would not have been a responsible position to adopt.
I think the chance of getting the clubs to agree to reconstruction at the same time as finalising positions was slim to none. And Slim had left the building.
In all honesty, I believe the choice to ‘call’ the league in the terms it did was the right one. I just cannot see how it could have taken any other course of action.
StevieBC 3rd May 2020 at 15:07
'…
I guess that gives TRFC a final 72 hours then,
to negotiate / threaten / dare I say bully?
the SPFL and other clubs,
to get what it wants / concessions,
in return for dropping its complaints.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
It's a pleasant situation to be in, I have to say: sitting on the sidelines while the Club that is a Living Lie has a go at one of the Governance bodies that helped manufacture that lie and has run with it for 8 years!
What's not to enjoy?
The SPFL, like the fox in the fable, chose in 2012 to carry the scorpion TRFC over the river and is now being stung by that scorpion, faithful to its inherent poisonous and malicious nature.
When the baddies fall out and start sniping at each other, I can rejoice in their discomfiture.
Corrupt Official
To be fair he was battling an agenda laden interview that was only looking for certain answers, and as a result, limited and repeated questions.
%%%%%%%%%%%
Poor Mr.Doncaster, perhaps we should give him a raise on his 350K salary for his limited answers to repeated questions.
Maybe if he hadn’t insisted on refusing interjections from others, the questions may have been more varied.
Maybe if he and his colleagues had conducted the whole rushed affair with good governance, competence and a fair approach regards not inflicting extra pain on (relegated) clubs when there was no need to……we wouldn’t be here 4 weeks later and the SPFL wouldn’t have needed to firstly sit in a bunker for a fortnight or so, then undergo a PR blitz that has been big on words but small on satisfactory answers.
“Agenda driven interview“…. wow, just wow !!
Unless the agenda was journalists looking to hold power to account.
I’d send him an e-mail to apologize and suggest John Nelms is next to be put in front of Richard ‘Paxman’ Gordon but it would probably just go into quarantine.
John Clark 3rd May 2020 at 15:30
=================
The statement below is an extract from an e-mail response Mr Doncaster sent to me in 2017. He said it was the SFL who were responsible. Mr Longmuir and Mr Ballantyne if I recall correctly made the decision, which was akin to the Fox getting the key to the Henhouse! However, I don't doubt for a minute that the SPL (as they were at the time), would have made exactly the same decision. It was all part of the gerrymandered fix, and it's not called the Five-Way-Agreement for nothing!
'When Rangers Newco joined SFL3 in 2012, the SFL recognised Rangers Newco as possessing all of the title history – this is evidenced by the SFL handbook for season 2012/13 and the SFL website at that time.'
Charles Paterson, Sky journalist tweeted the following at 20:18 on the evening of Friday 10th of April (day of first public vote count).
It appears that there may be “a technical question-mark” over the competence of Dundee’s no vote”…
https://twitter.com/charlesp_sky/status/1248691865882447872
%%%%%%%%%%%%
How does that fit in with the Deloitte timeline (below) ?
“Sequence of key events on 10 April 2020.
“1. An SPFL Board Meeting commenced at 17:00 on Friday 10 April 2020. At the start of the meeting 38 returns had been identified as received, and 1 further return was received during the meeting at 17:10, bringing the total number of returns to 39.
“Ladbrokes Premier: 10 returns in favour, 1 against
“Ladbrokes Championship: 7 returns in favour, 2 against
“Ladbrokes Leagues One and Two: 16 returns in favour, 3 against
“It was noted during the meeting that one vote remained outstanding from the Premiership, one from the Championship, and one from Leagues One and Two.
“2. The Board meeting concluded at around 17:15.
“3. At 17:15, Neil Doncaster called Dundee FC Managing Director, John Nelms, and left a message asking whether Dundee FC intended to submit a return.
“4. At 17:39, Neil Doncaster had a conversation with John Nelms and confirmed that as far as he knew, no vote had been returned from Dundee FC.
“John Nelms thought Dundee FC’s vote may have been returned, but would make enquiries.
“5. At 17:50, Eric Drysdale (Dundee FC Club Secretary) spoke to Iain Blair (SPFL’s Company Secretary and Director of Operations) asking whether Dundee FC’s return had been received. Iain Blair confirmed that it had not.
“6. At 18:00, a text was received by Iain Blair, from Eric Drysdale, intimating that the Dundee FC vote should not be considered as cast.
“7. At around 20:30, Ian Blair accessed the SPFL’s email quarantine system (which is a feature of the email system operated by a separate third party) at the suggestion of Rod Mackenzie and identified an unread email from Eric Drysdale that had been sent at 16:48 on 10 April 2020.
“Iain Blair released the quarantined email and it appeared in his SPFL email inbox at 20:55.
“Prior to identifying the quarantined email at around 20:30, no one from the SPFL had seen the email from Eric Drysdale.
“Deloitte’s examination of phone records, mobile communications (including texts) and email data has identified no evidence of improper behaviour by SPFL personnel concerning the submission of the Dundee FC vote.
upthehoops 3rd May 2020 at 15:39
'..an extract from an e-mail response Mr Doncaster sent to me in 2017. He said it was the SFL who were responsible. Mr Longmuir and Mr Ballantyne if I recall correctly made the decision, which was akin to the Fox getting the key to the Henhouse.'
"""""""""""""""""""""
Well remembered, uth!
I've always meant to have a look back at that merger (or rather, takeover: the SPL simply registered change of name to SPFL)
Where did it come from and why? That is, was it innately connected with the 5-Way agreement as part of some deal with Longmuir or had it been on the stocks long before the Liquidation and death of RFC of 1872
reasonablechap
3rd May 2020 at 16:06
0 0 Rate This
……….
Not sure who you are directing your question to, but I don't understand its premise.
How is it you think a tweet from a Sky reporter relates to the Deloitte investigation?
Are you saying that there is some conflict? If so, what is it?
Allyjambo 3rd May 2020 at 13:59
HirsutePursuit 3rd May 2020 at 13:38
HirsutePursuit 3rd May 2020 at 15:15
I agree with AJ.
@HP, you are now getting into remote possibilities.
The season was scheduled to end and all monies paid out two weeks from now. All Premiership clubs will have budgeted to receive all remaining funds around that date. I cannot envisage a decision to end the season being delayed any longer than a few days beyond that point.
If clubs did become insolvent, having received funds, but with games still to play then, 1) any points penalty would be subject to appeal for reasons of force majeure, with, in my opinion, a high likelihood of success. 2) any funds distributed wouldn’t be at the cost to any other club, as they would have agreed to receive what was appropriate to their position at the time.
Any club, or the SPFL itself, that sought to recover funds from an administrator / liquidator would be free to do so. The benefit of doing so would be marginal, at best, at this stage of the season.
As a have pointed out previously, the SPFL is a members organisation. They are free to change their Articles of Association as they wish. (as they did re the use of PPG to determine the final league positions). They could have changed the articles about promotion, relegation, play-offs, number of teams in the league, financial distribution for this season and next season only, if they wanted to.
PPG, for example, was only one method that was available to determine final positions. Although it may be viewed as the fairest option by many fans, it doesn’t take account of the split of home/away games and the difficulty or otherwise of the games played to date or future games cancelled.
The league could have been called a number of ways: on current standings, the standings as they were when teams had played the same number of games, the position at the completion of the second round of games when all teams had played home and away against every other team. All those options could have been accommodated by changes to the Articles. I do hope that they were all considered before PPG was put to the clubs. However, why PPG had to be attached to decisions on promotions, relegations, abandoning play-offs etc. still isn’t clear to me.
HP
In relation to Deloitte timeline.
How does Charles Paterson know there had been a technical question-mark regards the Dundee vote and that the vote was a No vote by 20:18 ?
EasyJambo
@HP, you are now getting into remote possibilities.
%%%%%%%%%%%
Very
Being an auld geezer, I struggled with the use of the word ‘quarantine’ in relation to emails!
In my day it meant what every child in the country now knows what it means because of covid-19!But when the word was used in relation to a technical procedure in the world of email communications, it had me baffled.
Dundee’s vote went into ‘quarantine.’
Was this a deliberate attempt by SPFL to hide an unwelcome ‘NO’ vote?
I read up that ‘quarantine’ can be part of the business of automatically separating out ‘spam’.
Technical glitches are the order of the day, and there is nothing untoward about emails going astray into somewhere other than they were addressed.
But most importantly, a ‘no’ vote can be changed even after it is cast, right up to the official deadline!
Dundee could have sent 100 emails stating their vote was ‘NO’ and still have been perfectly entitled to change it to a ‘yes’ right up to the end of the 28 day balloting period.
John
But most importantly, a 'no' can be changed even after it is cast, right up to the official deadline!Dundee could have sent 100 emails stating their vote was 'NO' and still have been perfectly entitled to change it to a 'yes' right up to the end of the 28 day balloting period.
%%%%%%%%%%
Not according to the legal opinion sought by Partick Thistle.
When sent (not arrived or received), it was a No and at that point the resolution lapsed.
reasonablechap
3rd May 2020 at 16:26
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HP
In relation to Deloitte timeline.
How does Charles Paterson know there had been a technical question-mark regards the Dundee vote and that the vote was a No vote by 20:18 ?
……….
Surely a question for Charles Paterson. Does he post here?
Do you know how he sourced his info?
Still don't understand, whatever answer he may provide, how it would be relevant to the Deloitte investigation.
How do you think it would be so?
Please, please don't feed the aspen bachelor.
Its just a road to nowhere.
Really boring and utterly self defeating.
There are more interesting things going on.
reasonablechap 3rd May 2020 at 16:34
‘..Not according to the legal opinion sought by Partick Thistle.
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
I think the Companies Act is actually quite clear:
Under Section 296 of the Companies Act 2006:A vote is not signified until
” 296 Procedure for signifying agreement to written resolution
(1)A member signifies his agreement to a proposed written resolution when the company receives from him (or from someone acting on his behalf) an authenticated document—
(a)identifying the resolution to which it relates, and
(b)indicating his agreement to the resolution.
(2)The document must be sent to the company in hard copy form or in electronic form.
(3)A member’s agreement to a written resolution, once signified, may not be revoked.
(4)A written resolution is passed when the required majority of eligible members have signified their agreement to it.
AND Section 297 :
297 Period for agreeing to written resolution
(1)A proposed written resolution lapses if it is not passed before the end of—
(a)the period specified for this purpose in the company’s articles, or
(b)if none is specified, the period of 28 days beginning with the circulation date.
By any unstrained reading, it is clear enough that a full 28 period must elapse before any vote counts.Thus, at any point before the end of that period a vote received is NOT ‘signified’ legally.
Been lurking for a long, long time but happy to read and learn.
This, however, is starting to feel somewhat familiar.
We have one particular team/entity/engine room subsidy being very aggrieved at a particular issue and leading a crusade against…well everyone, a whole host of supplicant "journalists" willing to push that particular line of questioning despite there being far more relevant issues which apply to all of Scottish football as opposed to one particular team, and lastly, the re-emergence of a specific type of poster on this forum who continuously deflects, denies and contorts.
It's almost as if there is a determined effort going on here to disguise or distract our attention from something that they don't want to admit or acknowledge.
The end is nigh.
This latest announcement re a merchandising partner made me feel I'd seen something similar a few days before the lockdown started; so, does anyone remember the name of that guy from the Far East who was about to buy megabucks worth of shares and had a foot in the door of the Blue Room?
Was he called Deja Vu Alloveragain, or something? Or was it Ezztees Forsale?
Finloch 3rd May 2020 at 17:48
'…Please, please don't feed the aspen bachelor'
"""""""""""
A moment of weakness, Finloch: he talks such ill-informed balls that I shouldn't really respond.
I will not do so again, because there is no reasoning with 'invincible ignorance', the blindness that can't see because it chooses not to!
Supporters of the Big Lie fall into that category, I believe.
Allyjambo 3rd May 2020 at 17:59
'. so, does anyone remember the name of that guy from the Far East..'
"""""""""""""
There have been so many, Aj, that it's hard to keep track.
Are you thinking of the guy originally from Greenock or Port Glasgow, who's in the logistics business in Japan and is always looking for land near good roads for storage /transport purposes?
I've actually forgotten his name, and it was on the tip of my tongue when I began to post this!
John Clark 3rd May 2020 at 18:29
Allyjambo 3rd May 2020 at 17:59
==============================
I think that it was Bill Ng who you were thinking about.
Like most of the other interested parties looking to buy RFC before it was liquidated, he's had a chequered back story.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/prospective-former-rangers-owner-bill-10297531
Allyjambo 3rd May 2020 at 17:59
This latest announcement re a merchandising partner made me feel I'd seen something similar a few days before the lockdown started;
===========================
Stuart Gibson Ally…….Good at the hokey-Cokey I believe. ……No so much the "In", bit, but brilliant at the "ooties".
Corrupt official 3rd May 2020 at 12:44
I don’t know if Sevco do, or don’t want a loan, or even if it would be granted, nor do I know if they wanted position payments forwarded without calling the league. I’m not sure they even know what they want, as they have changed stance on numerous occasions.
……………….
That saves me going back over the last weeks to look out all their statements (I’m not sure they even know what they want)
Re the sky tweet.
it was common knowledge that Dundee were part of the first division bloc voting no. The Record had ran their eckshclusif on the “Championship Battleground” 48 hours previously. It became common knowledge quite quickly through SPFL clumsiness that Dundee’s intended no vote (intended in so far as the SPFL were subsequently told to disregard it) and which Mr Gardiner was so quick to protect/advertise 18 hours later (sorry 17.5 because the westie needed out) and the missing vote at ten past five was one and the same. Hence the Sky tweet later to say the Dundee vote (and hence the overall result) wasn’t the given everyone had previously thought. Tweet then follows. No?
Smugas
3rd May 2020 at 11:07
3 0 Rate This
Sorry to the blog if Im being incredibly slow. My memory was SPL cash was forwarded to Gretna to complete their fixtures? Did they not do that, and thus forfeited the 12th place fee that would have been due to them anyway? Im still not following how moneys were forwarded AND lost. Confused.
……………….
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1257025777100611586/photo/1
Smugas 3rd May 2020 at 13:31
14
0
Rate This
No arguement from me there. But they dont get to pick and choose which elements they wish to be transparent on, nor do they get to selectively pick which they will be questioned on, nor, for that matter, do the journalists get to either!
……………..
I remember Warburton getting removed from a presser when journalists were told not to ask questions about Joey Barton, but they did.
John Clark 3rd May 2020 at 15:30
As you say, what's not to enjoy.
Seeing the new club biting the hand that helped con it into existence, and threatened every other club with financial Armageddon if they didn't let it into the top league (as was), then tried to get them in at the top of the lower league (as was), then eventually managed to get them into the bottom division of that league.
There was a lot of threatening, bullying, coercion going on back in the day.
Watching said club have a real go at them is fecking hilarious if you are honest.
And all because they thought they had a chance at stopping Celtic win 9 in a row, when they couldn't do it himself. Then really started throwing the toys out of the pram when 80% of the clubs said nah, we'll finish the league.
They are absolutely raging that the SFA are insisting on finishing their competition as well.
Here's the great bit, bring on the independent inquiry as well.
As you say, what's not to like.
reasonablechap 3rd May 2020 at 16:06
How does that fit in with the Deloitte timeline (below) ?
“Sequence of key events on 10 April 2020.
“1. An SPFL Board Meeting commenced at 17:00 on Friday 10 April 2020. At the start of the meeting 38 returns had been identified as received, and 1 further return was received during the meeting at 17:10, bringing the total number of returns to 39.
…………………….
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1257032517137371136/photo/1
…………….
The rangers 17.10pm
Cluster One 3rd May 2020 at 20:45
The rangers 17.10pm
========================
I think that it may have been Hearts voting just after 5pm. Apparently Hearts had tried to submit their vote around lunchtime, but ending up resubmitting it just after 5pm.
John Clark 3rd May 2020 at 16:07
I’ve always meant to have a look back at that merger (or rather, takeover: the SPL simply registered change of name to SPFL)
Where did it come from and why? That is, was it innately connected with the 5-Way agreement as part of some deal with Longmuir or had it been on the stocks long before the Liquidation and death of RFC of 1872
………………
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1257040546088005633/photo/1
………….
This could be a good start for you JC. The part that is highlighted. Also remember he got a bonus that there were some question marks over.
……………………….
Not related but just a bit of information while looking that up.
Rangers Retail ltd was born 2 days later
reasonablechap 3rd May 2020 at 16:34
John
But most importantly, a ‘no’ can be changed even after it is cast, right up to the official deadline!Dundee could have sent 100 emails stating their vote was ‘NO’ and still have been perfectly entitled to change it to a ‘yes’ right up to the end of the 28 day balloting period.
%%%%%%%%%%
Not according to the legal opinion sought by Partick Thistle.
When sent (not arrived or received), it was a No and at that point the resolution lapsed.
Been reading your comments all through this thread and come to the conclusion you are either a troll digging for info or looking to sh*t stir, if you have evidence or a source, without naming the source at least put up the statement or shut up.
If Partick Thisle had a legal position why did they not pursue it, as it stands they are relegated and may not come up from the lower division, thus, you would have thought they would have fought their corner.
Partick, ICT and Dundee, never carried through what they had whatsapped, and Dundee and the other two could have changed their vote as the man who replied stated this was a resoloution and was compliant with company law, 28 days before it fails and even if it was not official, if a club wanted in reverse of what others have been saying Dundee’s no should have been a no, any club could have insisted Dundee must register again as they never followed procedures for casting the vote as laid out and they sent their vote to spam, which is a spoiled ballot paper.
Partick Thistle were in my opinion told they do not have a leg to stand on and best save what they would have lost in a legal dispute and hope for change. So instead of taking your argument around in circles why not take the night off and stop posting he said and they said you are now behaving like a sevco rep.
Cluster One 3rd May 2020 at 21:19
John Clark 3rd May 2020 at 16:07
I’ve always meant to have a look back at that merger (or rather, takeover: the SPL simply registered change of name to SPFL)
I can't recall ever discovering the outcome of Longmuir's bonus's.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/spfl-investigate-claims-secret-bonus-2169597
Just another add-on to above to late to Edit
As the Newco rangers were invited into the bottom tier the SPL were trying to hatch a plan for a SPL2 and get a rangers into it.
Back in the day they were really making it up as they went along.
Cluster One 3rd May 2020 at 21:19
John Clark 3rd May 2020 at 16:07
I’ve always meant to have a look back at that merger (or rather, takeover: the SPL simply registered change of name to SPFL)
Where did it come from and why?
================================
It originated in the second half of 2010 when SPL 2 was being considered, i.e. before RFC’s demise. Had it happened, then much of the two lower tiers of the SFL would have been left behind. That was also the situation that prompted ND to mention “financial armageddon” if clubs didn’t vote for his plan.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1338087/Neil-Doncaster-urges-SPL-clubs-grab-cash-lifeline.html
Stewart Regan only repeated ND’s comment when RFC hit the buffers.
RFC’s collapse triggered a rethink of the planned split and ended with a merger of the SFL and SPL. It provided an easier path for TRFC to the top flight, while protecting the critical TV deal.
Note: The linked article talks about “financial Armageddon”, but also reflects clubs’ complaints about “emotional blackmail” being applied.
Plus ça change
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52515606
easyJambo 3rd May 2020 at 21:37
It originated in the second half of 2010 when SPL 2 was being considered,
……………
Round about the same time HMRC were asking questions i believe.
Corrupt official 3rd May 2020 at 21:32
………….
I HAVE THAT SOMEWHERE
……………………..
bigboab1916 3rd May 2020 at 21:31
…….
I read Partick Thistle released a very good statement.
John
A moment of weakness, Finloch: he talks such ill-informed balls that I shouldn't really respond.
I will not do so again, because there is no reasoning with 'invincible ignorance', the blindness that can't see because it chooses not to!
Supporters of the Big Lie fall into that category, I believe.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
You'd better send one of those "invincible ignorance" e-mails to the QC and junior counsel who gave Partick Thistle the legal opinion (link below / you might have to C&P it into the address bar). I thought after spending all that time in court, you might have learnt by now that barrack room lawyers have their limitations and can easily make a fool out of themselves.
https://cdn-5dd296c4f911cc1c581d2ef3.closte.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2020.04.14-FINAL-Rev_Redacted-Joint-Opinion-PTFC-.pdf
Cluster One 3rd May 2020 at 21:19
"….This could be a good start for you JC. The part that is highlighted. Also remember he got a bonus that there were some question marks over."
"""""""""""""""""""""
It all comes flooding back, Cluster One! Thank you.
EJ
Two weeks ago, there was still earnest yearnings for extending the season into July/early August. Some were (still are) even suggesting a later start for euro competitions could give national leagues to September/October to finish.
I agree that those options now appear to hold just the remotest of possibilities (in Scotland at least), but the position was not as clear cut at the time the board's resolution was put forward.
Force majeure can certainly be a defence if an insolvency event occurs, but, the penalty is automatic and the process of appeal is not as straightforward as you might think. It would be expensive, opaque to the general public and hugely controversial. Can you imagine the wailing outrage if a club gained promotion or escaped relegation following a successful appeal whilst another, in apparently similar circumstances, had its appeal rejected.
Imagine that the league had made advance payments – based on a provisional league position. Regardless of how the final league positions were ultimately determined, the board could not have any certainty that the final positions in the weeks or months ahead would be the same as they are right now. Only by absolutely finalising the positions, could the fee due to each club be finalised.
The SPFL has not changed its articles.
Article 103 says,
The board shall, …:
…
103.9 in relation to the operation of the League, the League Cup and any other Competition operated by the Company, be entitled to make such arrangements, adopt such procedures and make such determinations as it considers appropriate in circumstances where the Rules or Regulations, as the case may be, do not direct or provide for the manner in which the League, League Cup or other Competition operated by the Company should proceed or be operated;
…
103.13. make such recommendations to the Members on such matters as it considers appropriate.
From the above, you can see that the board could have taken the decision itself. Instead the board chose to make a recommendation to the members. The members accepted the board's recommendations and the RULES have been updated accordingly. No change was required for the Articles.
All of the changes were related to making specific determinations within the operation of the league competition in circumstances were it was considered the existing Rules did not provide clear (enough) guidance.
Personally, if it had been up to me, I would have made a determination that all remaining games were given a 1-1 scoreline. That would have met the expectation of a 38 game season. However, I have no insight into what methodologies were considered and why PPG was the preferred determination. In all honesty, unless the final positions were determined by a formula that was grossly unfair, I don't think it matters too much.
I suppose, from a Premiership perspective, the formula would need to meet UEFA's requirement for 'sporting merit'. So, perhaps the board felt that PPG is most representative of the actual playing record of each club over as much of the season as was actually played. In the circumstances, I find it difficult to find fault with that logic.
In terms of promotion, relegation and the play-off competitions, the starting point is that the league positions have been established. What are the options if Dundee United are deemed to be winners of the Championship and Hearts finish bottom of the Premiership? Promotion and relegation are simply consequences of those facts. For those clubs, there is no real decision to be made.
For clubs in play-off positions, at least a decision (determination) needed to be made. In all the prevailing circumstances, was that determination perverse? No, I don't think so.
Will the board have considered other options? In theory, I suppose so. But, in all honesty, what was the prospect of achieving sufficient consensus to enable fairly substantial changes to the articles?
Perhaps I am too pessimistic. I just feel the idea that there could, in short order, be agreement around changes to fee distribution and league reconstruction, is a tad optimistic …at best.
John Clark 3rd May 2020 at 22:12
Must have felt like christmas to Longmuir.
HirsutePursuit 3rd May 2020 at 22:31
The SPFL has not changed its articles.
===========================
Mea culpa
Apologies, but it was the “Rules and Regulations” that changed. However, any changes to the R&R are subject to the AoA.
Alterations to Rules
A2 Any alteration, deletion or addition shall be made in or to these Rules including the Appendices only in accordance with the Articles.
reasonablechap 3rd May 2020 at 22:07
‘.The Dundee Rejection Vote was therefore deemed to have been cast at 4.48pm when it was sent.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””
With apologies to Finloch of this parish, I reply:
It may have been ‘cast’ but under the Companies Act it manifestly was not legally ‘signified’ and could not be legally signified until the expiry of 28 days!
Messrs Thomson and Anderson, in my opinion, have like some layman taken the ‘casting’ of a vote as meaning that the vote has been ‘signified’ as defined in the Companies Act.
A very basic mistake, to assume that a word or expression used in everyday speech has the same meaning as a quite different word used in an Act of Parliament!
easyJambo
3rd May 2020 at 22:39
0 0 Rate This
………..
The gentle point I was trying to make is that changes to the rules are made to ensure its competitions are operated as effectively as possible in the prevailing circumstances.
A change to the articles could be much more profound as it may involve altering the contractual and commercial consequences of the nature and outcome of those competitions.
Seeking to get approval for making determinations in the context of the completion of a competition shouldn't be particularly contentious. Though, of course, it has proven to be just that!
Trying to change the commercial consequences of the competition outcome at the same time seems overly ambitious.
I listened today to Mulraney of Alloa's observation that
"The full-time clubs are going to be presented with problems that are very, very significant. Some of our larger clubs are going to face some real, real searching questions over the coming months."
And I wondered: is there already some enterprising real journalist getting right in there to try to predict which full-time clubs will be the first to go under, and why?
Are the betting companies offering odds?
And, being on a promise from Mrs C, I'm off to bed now.
The promise being, of course, that she'll kick ma heid in if I don't get aff that blog!
Easy Jambo
On your last point first which arises as result of seeing where you are coming from in your reply:
I had some sympathy for Michael Stewart's arguments at the time but I think events have overtaken them, which is I think where I came in.
I think we are all finding the same arguments as tiresome and repetitive, but the way you describe events as having overtaken them is akin to saying that "decisions have been made so we should move on". With your own experience of "moving on" in the context of the Res 12 issue, I'm sure that you still harbour hopes of righting the wrongs that were done in 2011 and thereafter and you want structures put in place that can prevent such errors being repeated. That's where I came in.
==========================
1. To clarify: by moving on I didn't mean dropping the point you made about who decides the desired objective and how to reach it, that battle for transparency goes on by asking questions about the 5 Way Agreement that meant Celtic, who would be a part of a desired shared aim of keeping crowds turning up at Ibrox and continuation of a poisonous rivalry to attract TV money, having to lie to shareholders at last AGM and pretend for over 7 years they were unhappy with the SFA in respect of the UEFA licence 2011beacuse of their involvement in the 5 Way Agreement.
Given it is the same point you make, it is a long term battle. No, by "moving on" I meant we need to concentrate on the battle for survival facing all top tier clubs with players on contracts they can no longer afford for as long as football is impossible to play to an attending audience.
I was influenced by what is going on in the USA to enable sport to continue as reported by The Washington Post and New York Times that I linked to. Its grim and somehow supporters have to be persuaded to pay to keep their clubs alive with no guarantee of when they will have a game to watch, which is the basis of my reply to Andrew Smith's main blog feature about selling membership in return for a meaningful vote on club business.
Perhaps "park the questions arising from the voting issues for now" better covers it, although now that Hearts have been bitten by the same opaqueness, Anne Budge might realise it was a mistake not make a fuss using Res12 as a reason for an SFA clear out with an introduction of domestic FFP which I think would be good for all challengers for best league positions.
The modus operandi of both SFA and SPFL is as clear as day based on previous SFA/SPFL investigations and the key question is who decides on the desired outcome the SPFL or SFA CEO is asked to deliver?
Res12/ 5 Way Agreement pursuit has been parked, not dropped because its aim is transparency and accountability and it is ironic that now Rangers think they are on the wrong end of a decision by one of those bodies they now want what they have derided since Res12 was first lodged.
Easy Jambo
If alternative was dependent on playing the outstanding games, which everyone wanted, rather than placing teams on current position, how realistic is that position now and is it not a bridge that will have to be crossed anyway?
I agree it is no longer realistic to expect games to be played so the split of prize money would have been based on current positions (or PPG) as above. The argument against early distribution that clubs might go bust is a red herring. The money would be due to clubs anyway as soon a the season was called. Neither the SPFL or the other clubs would be losing out in cash terms. The SFA/SPFL rules on insolvency would ensure that football creditors are repaid in full following any CVA or in TRFC's case phoenixing.
================
I think that because of what happened at Rangers and the loss of income from self isolation , the SPFL Board used a justifiable principle to support not giving loans, even if they had other motivations and the eventual adjustments after league is called are small.
Put another way, had there been another outcome they wanted that raised the same argument/principle, they would have said the cost of the risk was minimal. That is what they do. That is Doncaster's job to justify the unjustifiable. An example at Celtic. Refusing to pursue SFA JPDT to complete investigation into UEFA licence 2011 on the grounds its between the SFA and Rangers, totally missing the point Celtic could be owed compensation and deserve an answer.
I can understand the annoyance of Hearts (and Thistle) and sympathise but what other solution would have kept Hearts (and Thistle ) up that did not affect the league structures? Hearts stay up but Dundee Utd don't get promoted or they do creating a 14 team top tier that a number of clubs might have objected to?
There are solutions that would have saved Hearts and Thistle without reconstruction. "Null and void" and "no promotion or relegation" are two, although I wouldn't advocate either. In my view a "no relegation and a temporary reconstruction" (although I would prefer a permanent change) was an eminently, fair, practical and sensible one in the exceptional circumstances. Even the Lowland League, East of Scotland League and the new West of Scotland League, all within the pyramid, have adopted that approach.
==============
Agreed on no relegation but at the other end of the table successful clubs would have to be promoted so reconstruction by the back door which The SPFL Board might not did not want to happen for cake slicing reasons. (I'll cover rest if if needed later today)
John Clark 3rd May 2020 at 22:41
It may have been ‘cast’ but under the Companies Act it manifestly was not legally ‘signified’ and could not be legally signified until the expiry of 28 days!
Messrs Thomson and Anderson, in my opinion, have like some layman taken the ‘casting’ of a vote as meaning that the vote has been ‘signified’ as defined in the Companies Act.
A very basic mistake, to assume that a word or expression used in everyday speech has the same meaning as a quite different word used in an Act of Parliament!
………………….
That took me back to the time Charles Green said he got the Nod.
Auldheid 4th May 2020 at 04:10
The modus operandi of both SFA and SPFL is as clear as day based on previous SFA/SPFL investigations and the key question is who decides on the desired outcome the SPFL or SFA CEO is asked to deliver?
Res12/ 5 Way Agreement pursuit has been parked, not dropped because its aim is transparency and accountability and it is ironic that now Rangers think they are on the wrong end of a decision by one of those bodies they now want what they have derided since Res12 was first lodged.
===============================
The frustration for both of us is that nothing has changed or looks likely to change in the foreseeable future in terms of the governance of the game and the key question you pose gets to the heart of the matter. Who decides on the desired outcome?
I’m sure that much of the furore over the current machinations will be forgotten about once football does resume in a meaningful way, although the recriminations will remain for a year or two longer. Your own fight about events nine years ago has all been forgotten by all but the most fervent followers of the campaign (I include myself among such followers). As each year passes the relevance diminishes, but I still support what you are doing.
May the 4th be with you.
EJ You have just said what many of us have been thinking.
I concur with your response to Auldhied.
The thing for me though and I don't mean this in a lookback 20/20
kind of way, rather it was something I had predicted at the very
beginning. The mistake has all along been to take the long route.
One thing that the SFA and Sevco have been better at than all
others is "kicking the can down the road", indeed if there were
ever to be a medal for said sport my money would be on them.
The only way to go, in my opinion was down the court/legal
route. That is the only way. Again just my opinion.
BTW, Two crackers, May the 4th be with you and from JC,
"I am on a promise" very funny indeed.
Furthermore, Rangers will begin the 2020/21 football season with a new kit and retail operations partner, following the conclusion of all existing contracts.
James Bisgrove, Director of Commercial and Marketing said: “The club is incredibly excited to introduce its new kit & retail partner to Rangers supporters world-wide imminently.
The above is taken from the most recent statement from Ibrox (May 2nd) . Firstly, “following the conclusion of all existing contracts” is being interpreted as having got rid of SDI where the reality is the contracts with Hummel and Elite were the existing contracts that have now been terminated and were done so by a Judge ruling in Ashley’s favour. For him to now walk away , ditching his matching rights contract and dismiss any award due to him is fantasy land moonbeams .
Secondly , why would Bisgrove not announce its new kit and retail partner right now ? Imminently can be an inordinate length of time when it comes to Ibrox affairs , there’s the share issue , the far east investment , partnerships with Dallas Cowboys and even NOMADS that have been described as imminent and that’s before mentioning the dodgy dossier that the Press seemed to have moved on from.
Meanwhile it’s worth looking at https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08142409 where David Cunningham King remains the one and only active Director and whose accounts are long overdue (March 20 2019)
What will arrive at Ibrox first ? the RIFC interim accts , Rangers Retail accounts or the Christmas card to Charles Green from Dundee Utd ? My moneys on the Christmas card.
Auldheid 4th May 2020 at 04:35
We got ourselves in trouble with our performances on the park and would have liked the opportunity to play our way out of it . Merde arrive, just got to cope with it . Not as bad as all the doings Falkirk got years back , and they are still with us .
easyjambo
May the 4th be with you.
————————————————
The 4th May 1985 was the final Saturday of the Scottish Premier Division and on that day Aberdeen finished their league season by beating Hearts 3-0 (McDougall 3) at Tynecastle. I think we had already won the league before that but the significance is that it remains the last time any team other than one playing out of Celtic Park or Ibrox have won the top league in Scotland (Celtic were 2nd, Dundee Utd 3rd and Rangers 4th, on the same points as St Mirren, being 21 points behind us at a time when it was 2 points for a win). I bring this up, not to remind ej, but in connection with a Highlander post last week in relation to how our game could be improved by a more equitable distribution of the money in the game. My memory was that there was nothing like the disparity in resources available to clubs in these days and the destination of the league title was much less likely to be determined by money. Alas I fear that we will never get back to that situation and that any changes to distribution of funds will be "tinkering at the edges".
This 'imminent' deal with 'leaked drawings' of home / away / third / goalkeepers and even training ground 'potential' kits,
has the whiff of a Dallas Cowboys deal, the Apple stadium naming rights, and the 500M fan base.
No contracts signed, but it's a good news story for Ibrox – and this unknown supplier Castore receives a lot of free publicity.
What are the odds that the Ibrox club plays in unbranded kit next season…?
From the BBC "gossip" page today. "Up to" £20m over 5 years they say
Rangers have signed a new kit deal with sportswear brand Castore worth around £20m (Sportcal via Scottish Sun).
Aye borderdon, remember it well! The thing isAberdeen doing what they did back then was made possible by a “ perfect storm” of factors. An ambitious and competent board, an ambitious and outstanding manager, decent players extant and good youths coming through. More importantly an old firm doing (paying) just a bit more than the diddies: where the money was going is not of interest to me but it wasn’t going on the football side! Even more important to the point of being crucial the gap between us and England was much narrower. A player like Archibald, for example, could double or treble his money by joining Spurs but now it’s a multiple of 40 and more. Scotland based players can double or treble their wages going to a mid to lower championship side. Short of a collapse of the game across the uk aberdeen will not win the league again which makes it quite remarkable that they, and others, even get close now and then.
I have no problem with the gap between Celtic and the rest, they sell 50000 season tickets, get 50000 at euro games, win stuff, buy low and sell high AND have owners with a bit of dough! Whether it would be better for them also for some of the rest of us get to the trough is another argument.
what I do have a problem with is all those years I, my fellow supporters and my club shelled out good money in an attempt to compete only to find out the old Rangers shafted the lot of us with their tax dodges and improperly registered players they otherwise couldn’t afford. The fact they were liquidated is no comfort. The fact that we’re supposed to consider the current bunch as some sort of continuation is just taking the piss.
Re SEVCO’s new kit ‘deal’.
Great news is that Mike Ashley’s out of the frame – all profits to Govania! Aye right!
SMSM accurately (?) reported that CFC would get ca £ 5m per year from new, landmark Adidas (market leader) deal.
SMSM accurately reporting that SEVCO will ‘pocket’ £4m from their deal with hitherto unheard of outfit.
Somebody’s sums ain’t right.
bordersdon 4th May 2020 at 16:07 From the BBC "gossip" page today. "Up to" £20m over 5 years they say Rangers have signed a new kit deal with sportswear brand Castore worth around £20m (Sportcal via Scottish Sun).
__________
Hmm, I wonder if SDI might feel able to match that deal, I mean, £4m a year for a kit deal with 'the world's most successful club' must seem mightily attractive to a company with SDI's infrastructure and financial resources. I'm not sure, but unless the 'matching rights contract' with SDI has been set aside by the courts then Big Mike must be pretty happy at the prospect of matching such a deal.
Unless. of course, the truth is that TRFC are paying Castore £4m per annum to make the kits
Ernie: Absobluminlutely.
Bordersdon @ 15.45: take that post and add on the earlier comment made by EJ (who may himself have been quoting Auldheid) along the lines of, the problem is not the befuddling of the vote to achieve the desired outcome, but in discovering who/what the creator of the desired outcome is.
In your context I suspect “the desired outcome” is to avoid the very storm you describe and I also remember with such fondness. That’s not an anti Old Firm cheek thing. It’s just to say that I suspect the unhealthy duopoly is considered by many to be far superior to a clearly unhealthy monopoly – but crucially that’s to the deliberate exclusion (certainly suppression) of any other possible outcome.
If the net cost (excl of VAT) of a replica shirt is around £50, it would take 80,000 sales each year to achieve revenues of £4m.
If you account for manufacturing, advertising, distribution and retail costs one would imagine that, with a fair wind, a profit of £1 – £1.5m might be achievable.
We know that a kit manufacturer might pay a football club on the basis of a licensing fee – payable as a fixed percentage of each sale. Alternatively, it might share the profits through some sort of joint venture.
Either way, a deal that splits the profit 50:50 from the whole enterprise, is likely to represent an excellent outcome for a club with limited alternative retail opportunities.
Let's assume that TRFC have negotiated such a deal.
On that basis, and regardless of the actual licensing methodology, its probably a reasonable estimate to say that the sale of 80,000 shirts (total revenue of £4m) the net income to TRFC will be in the region of £500k to £750k.
If TRFC are expecting to receive £4m as its cut, it's likely that Castore would need to sell around £30m of its merchandise. That would represent up to 600k replica shirts.
Imagine, for a moment, that such latent demand exists.
For a small company with no significant retail infrastructure, do such numbers sound realistic?
StevieBC
Apparently Mike Ashley owns them
bect67
https://mobile.twitter.com/Yogi_theTim/status/1257284111716306944/photo/1
Thanks for that Tony!
How could they SMSM be so far out with their figures? Mmmmm.
They do love their sour grapes I think!
Ernie
——————————————————————-
We could have a long discussion about the first part of your post, some of which I agree with but others not so much. However for the avoidance of doubt I totally share your position on the "old" Rangers EBT / not properly registered players. That's a whole different issue.
bect67
Click the photo in the post below those figures
Help ma boab!
Now, I’m more confused.com. than ever.
So Big Mike will sort it all out – now that King’s away!
My education continues apace!
That’s a wee dampener on the ST launch Tony/Bec. …..And frankly, deplorable deception and misdirection from the club towards their own support……I mean all clubs have their wee tricks and planning campaign sales…..But OMG !….There will be rage.
.
Corrupt official
Did they not even consider no one would look into it
Let's not believe what we want to believe re that tweet from…. 'Yogi the Tim'. Seriously?!
I searched for Business Live and found what I think is the current accurate listing that his tweet seems to refer to. https://www.business-live.co.uk/enterprise/mike-ashley-sports-direct-newcastle-16723204
I can see no mention of Castore being connected to MA or Sports Direct. Happy to be proved wrong.
tony 4th May 2020 at 20:51
It's beyond doubt they would have expected it be uncovered T, (maybe not so quickly), but a few ST's would have left the shelf, and somebody else will get the blame….They have been blaming their dearly departeds since 2012….From wee Craigy onwards, its always the guy who just left who did it…….Just pap it in the paper. As predictable as Scooby Doo…..Much funnier but.
nawlite 4th May 2020 at 21:14
Let's not believe what we want to believe re that tweet from…. 'Yogi the Tim'. Seriously?!
I searched for Business Live and found what I think is the current accurate listing that his tweet seems to refer to. https://www.business-live.co.uk/enterprise/mike-ashley-sports-direct-newcastle-16723204
I can see no mention of Castore being connected to MA or Sports Direct. Happy to be proved wrong.
===================================
Correct.
I've just searched for the same article myself. The Castore link is one of the "most read" stories on business-live to the right hand side of the Ashley article. There is no connection between the companies.
easyJambo 4th May 2020 at 21:19
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nawlite 4th May 2020 at 21:14
Let’s not believe what we want to believe re that tweet from…. ‘Yogi the Tim’. Seriously?!
I searched for Business Live and found what I think is the current accurate listing that his tweet seems to refer to. https://www.business-live.co.uk/enterprise/mike-ashley-sports-direct-newcastle-16723204
I can see no mention of Castore being connected to MA or Sports Direct. Happy to be proved wrong.
===================================
Correct.
I’ve just searched for the same article myself. The Castore link is one of the “most read” stories on business-live to the right hand side of the Ashley article. There is no connection between the companies.
Was searching myself including at Companies House. Can’t find a link but did establish that they are not billionaires. If only that kind of search ability was available 8 or so years ago…
Let’s not jump to conclusions or accept info from a single source. The kind of thing journalists obviously avoid before going public.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
Was searching myself including at Companies House. Can't find a link between SDI/MA/Castore but did establish that they are not billionaires.
If only that kind of search ability was available 8 or so years ago…
Let's not jump to conclusions or accept info from a single source. The kind of thing journalists obviously avoid before going public.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
Point taken. Had a wee root about myself and haven't found anything other than the tweet.
Aye same here , no like him tweeting that without a wee check, noted now
Easy Jambo 10.15
The frustration for both of us is that nothing has changed or looks likely to change in the foreseeable future in terms of the governance of the game and the key question you pose gets to the heart of the matter. Who decides on the desired outcome?
I’m sure that much of the furore over the current machinations will be forgotten about once football does resume in a meaningful way, although the recriminations will remain for a year or two longer. Your own fight about events nine years ago has all been forgotten by all but the most fervent followers of the campaign (I include myself among such followers). As each year passes the relevance diminishes, but I still support what you are doing.
May the 4th be with you.
======================
The future of Scottish football is now completely unknown but if supporters were to ask questions like this one I’ve copied from Sentinel Celts
“Here’s a question for ye . As a season ticket holder, the narrative at the minute across the country for most, indeed probably all clubs is this.
Give us your season book money or we may go bust. Why would they go bust? Answer is – wages. Celtic for example pay , let’s guess at an average of £20k per week. Of course some will be more.
Here’s my problem.
Millions of workers across the country are getting 80% of salary up to a max of £2500 per month. We have to get on with it.
Why is it necessary that players get paid their exorbitant salaries? Can’t they live off their savings the same as us?
I’m at a loss as to why the season ticket money is so critical?
Genuine question btw .”
and my reply
“If all supporters asked that question on players wages and dug deep , they would find that they themselves are responsible for creating demand in a market where trapping a ball was more important than teaching, or nursing, or healing.
It’s not that I object to a worker maximising his return for his labour, its putting his employer out of business if too greedy is my objection.
It serves neither in the long run, and here we are in a long run.”
This is in line with my thinking that the game is fecked for a number of clubs in the top tier and the only thing that will keep them going is high reserves, owners with deep pockets or supporters, particularly where the first two don’t apply.
Celtic have an advantage over all others and one thing that might stop their supporters ponying up unquestionably is to realise or become aware of how much Celtic are prepared to betray their support to the extent of lying to them. On doing so they would be entitled to ask for a greater say in policy in matters affecting supporters, in return for their financial support.
I think, thanks to joint efforts to get the Res12 narrative out, there are few supporters having read https://www.res12.uk who think the UEFA license was granted under honest circumstances in 2011. They might also be wondering why Celtic have not taken the matter to heart as the club who should be compensated, but not enough to make them want to act.
However if it became known that Celtic not only had enough evidence to call the LNS Commission out on their own and failed to act on it *, but through prominent bloggers argued for delay until the Supreme Court ruled and so allowed the false narrative of no sporting advantage to become the accepted narrative, which undermined any argument for title stripping, then perhaps, just perhaps they might react as a group of shareholders, who have seen evidence of The Board’s duplicity are prepared to do, and that is table a motion of censure of the Board, PL in particular but also the departed Eric Riley, their man on the SPL Board in 2013 and ask why it is necessary to be lied to by Celtic in order to keep a dishonest club as Celtic’s main rivals.
Loyalty is two edged sword and clubs asking supporters to keep them alive without setting out what they are keeping alive is as deceitful as it comes and in return for that loyalty translated into financial support, supporters should be demanding transparency and accountability of their clubs through meaningful supporter involvement, before providing a penny of support.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6uWzxhblAt9dnVHSl9OU3RoWm8
The reason for Riley’s absence at the SPFL Board decision making point in Feb 2014 and subsequent lack of pursuit by him and Celtic from 2014 can be discovered in the 5 Way Agreement and Side letter to Sevco from Doncaster, where the clause requiring CAS referral of any dispute has also allowed the pursuit of Res12, which Celtic insisted be done domestically, to be buried by the SFA.
Riley was on the list of SPL Board members as well as Peter Lawwell in July 2012 that had the 5 Way Agreement attached and was one of the SP(F)L Directors contacted in 2014.
What the LNS Commissioning has in common with the recent SPFL payout Resolution is the setting of terms to achieve a desired result.
Call me an auld cynic but how much of a backhander/ebt would Castore take to give impression Rangers had some source of future income to satisfy the want to be satisfied that everything in the future garden is rosy?
HirsutePursuit 4th May 2020 at 17:10
"….it's likely that Castore would need to sell around £30m of its merchandise."
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I have only the haziest idea of how guys get money from other people and use that money by giving it to other folks who either already have a manufacturing business and workers that actually make and sell things or are enabled to set one up.
There is no [relevant] company named 'Carstore' listed in the Companies House records.
You need to go into the 'Carstore uk' webpage to find that the 'Carstore' website is run by 'J.Carter Sporting Club Ltd ' company number 09670915, on this link
https://castore.com/uk/terms-conditions/
If you then find J.Carter Sorting Club Ltd on the CH pages, you will see that there were at 23/09/2019
29 shareholders holding between them the 99,464 shares in issue ( nominal value of ordinary shares £0.001).
The two founders, Thomas and Philip Beahon (not 'Beaton') had 25,000 each, and no other shareholder had more than 3675 (Michael Needley).
Andy Murray is not among the 29, unless he's using another name, but he 'partners' them in so far as he seems to 'recommend' their tennis clothes.
If you then look at the Accounts for year ended 31/01/2019, Note 2, you see that the total number of employees was TWO.
Who the feck is making the gear? And under what arrangement that puts money into J.Carter Sporting Club Ltd?
Can it really be one of Mike Ashley's manufacturing places? That would be absolutely priceless!
How does all that kind of thing work?
No wonder I'm poor, if honest!
Of course, I am not necessarily being critical of any small company and its shareholders or even of the capitalist system or even of a small company that contracts with TRFC, or even of Andy Murray.
I'm just amazed that at the age I am [ statistically speaking, within 4 or 5 years of my end] I should know so little of the big, bad world of money-making with other people's money and not actually doing anything like making football togs and such like!
Auldheid 4th May 2020 at 22:12
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6uWzxhblAt9dnVHSl9OU3RoWm8
……………….
I’m getting.
The requested URL was not found on this server. That’s all we know.
@Auldheid 22.28
Castore has just got a great deal of (free) publicity at least in Scotland. The Castore story has deflected away from Dossiergate and allowed creditors of the Ibrox club* to believe it's business as usual and an income stream will be arriving . It has also spun the story that Ashley is gone (again) which has rallied their beleaguered fan base .Only time will tell if there is any truth to this deal but for the moment it's painting a rosy picture that satisfies both sides . As for how would they cope with demand if true , I'm sure they could outsource the contract to a sweat shop in the 3rd World , charge big money and pocket the difference.
JC
Had a quick look at how Castore operate earlier.
As far as I can tell, its business model is to design the sports clothing and use 'partners' (including one in Italy) for manufacturing. It has a smallish range of retail partners (Harrods, Selfridge's amongst others) to sell its merchandise as 'high end' sportswear.
Its existing networks seem at odds with the requirements for mass produced replica shirts.
One would expect that the manufacturing, logistics and retail outlets required for such an enterprise to be undertaken by a different set of partners.
In other news, I hear that Sports Direct are looking to change direction and hope to open around 100 new stores.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/sep/14/meet-the-man-behind-sports-directs-upmarket-rebrand
HirsutePursuit 4th May 2020 at 23:32
‘.. its business model is to design the sports clothing and use ‘partners’ (including one in Italy) for manufacturing.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Thank you, HP.
So the shareholders in the company are buying into two guys who have sportswear design ideas that they then sell to actual manufacturing companies to turn into manufactured goods.
Got it!
So perhaps an Ashley owned manufacturing company has indeed got the contract, being able to produce on the desired scale.
Albeit ,perhaps, of a cheaper, downmarket quality far short of what Andy Murray would consider wearing.
John Clark
5th May 2020 at 00:05
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HirsutePursuit 4th May 2020 at 23:32
‘.. its business model is to design the sports clothing and use ‘partners’ (including one in Italy) for manufacturing.’
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Thank you, HP.
So the shareholders in the company are buying into two guys who have sportswear design ideas that they then sell to actual manufacturing companies to turn into manufactured goods.
Got it!
So perhaps an Ashley owned manufacturing company has indeed got the contract, being able to produce on the desired scale.
Albeit ,perhaps, of a cheaper, downmarket quality far short of what Andy Murray would consider wearing.
………..
Not too long ago, I was looking to purchase a new TV.
My eye was caught by the similarity in many of the models – but fairly substantial differences in prices. To my untrained eye, I found it impossible to guage what model was 'better' than another.
I asked the sales person about features, picture quality, reliability, etc. The answers were less than persuasive.
In the end, I determined the thing that made the single biggest difference to the price was the brand.
Unsure about making an immediate choice, I made a note of two or three models and did a little research.
I discovered that the company owning the brand I had been looking at, doesn't actually make TVs. The specific model I was thinking of buying was actually better known as a model in the range of a household name (may have been Hitachi, but not absolutely sure).
I believe exactly the same components and software is installed in TVs on the same factory line for many different brands. All, though essentially the same, are directed towards slightly different market segments and sold at different prices.
The thing is, a brand often isn't real. Even if it has some financial value, it often has no real substance behind it.
So if Castore turns out to be no more than a shell, simply a crest and a name with no history earned through its own endeavours, well…
… it's probably a match well made.
Cluster One
Try https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6uWzxhblAt9dnVHSl9OU3RoWm8/view
Auldheid 4th May 2020 at 22:28
==================
The cynic in me wonders if Rangers are so desperate for a deal that they are quite prepared to go to court again with Ashley and indulge in the usual can kicking.
The cynic in me also thinks if Rangers new kit deal was with Adidas, and Celtic's was with Castore, the media might just be taking a different approach to their reporting.
upthehoops 5th May 2020 at 06:56
UTH, you often refer to ‘not being paranoid enough’ in your perception of how Celtic are treated by the media, football authorities, referees etc.
I can only assume those folk must be spectacularly inept, considering Celtic have all but clinched nine in a row, with ten likely to follow, and are odds on to clinch an unprecedented quadruple treble, while a healthy multi-millions of pounds sit in the bank account.
Imagine how much better they’d be doing if only everyone wasn’t out to get them.
Timtim 4th May 2020 at 23:16
I’m sure they could outsource the contract to a sweat shop in the 3rd World , charge big money and pocket the difference.
……………..
They did that a few years ago and had complaints from fans that the shirts were fading and falling apart after a wash.
……………
Once watched a program about a shoe factory in Taiwan, designer trainers and cheap trainers were both made in the same factory by the same people using the same machines and material. Only the label made the price difference.
Rangers will delay the release of their evidence into alleged wrongdoing by the SPFL hierarchy. The Ibrox club was due to circulate a dossier to the other 41 clubs today in support of its call for an independent probe. The clubs are scheduled to vote on the issue at an extraordinary general meeting next Tuesday.
…………………
They are a busted Flush.
Cluster One 5th May 2020 at 09:06
Rangers will delay the release of their evidence into alleged wrongdoing by the SPFL hierarchy…
============
Yes, it would seem that TRFC hasn’t got it’s own way, (yet?), and the SPFL is not rolling over.
So, what does the Blue Room do now?
They can’t issue that big A4, manila envelope, with “SECRET DOSSIER” scrawled all over the front of it in red, white and blue crayon: it’s empty.
Mibbees their new PR expert needs to release another squirrel – and quick!
…what a load of bollox and shame on the Ibrox club for causing even more, unnecessary grief during this difficult time for ALL clubs.
They just don’t give a sh!t about ‘Everyone or Anyone’ who is outside the Ibrox bubble!
And this club simply doesn’t give a sh!t about the wellbeing of the Scottish game, (just like the old club).
I was under the impression the explosive dossier was already prepared. Mainly because on 11th April Sevco claimed it had been seen by other member clubs, Mebbe it keeps blowing up…Did anybody notice if uncle Tom had singed eyebrows and a sooty face?….It's so hard to tell on the radio.
https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-football-club-statement/
The dossier release delayed.
"Rangers are keeping their powder dry".Daily Record.
Define powder?
I have been trying to find out some information on gate receipts but came up blank. As far as I recall gate receipts used to be shared 50/50 after the home side had deducted expenses. I don't know when this changed.
The reason why I am interested is because of the posts between Bordersdon and Ernie yesterday.
1985 is the last time the league was won by a club other than the Glasgow duo. By Aberdeen.
Bordersdon mentioned that there was less disparity in resources back then. I wondered if gate receipts was part of that?
misterlightbulbjoke
It certainly won’t be gunpowder (for explosive dossier – which, imho, they don’t have). Might refer to the useless powder in a damp squib (as they now seem faced with presenting a fatuous argument – do they even have that?).
I would now bet on the latter (the end of the line).
Whatever else it is, it’s certainly irresponsible (in the current climate when everyone should be sticking together for the benefit of the game), deflective (from their own significant financial woes as they desperately seek to punt season tickets), undignified and sheer bloodyminded (but wait – we know you all hate us, but we’re the mighty Bluenoses, so we don’t care.).
Before retirement I worked with a number of people who were victims of scammers.
One gentleman was convinced that he was in line for millions and millions of pounds from the Australian Lottery. It actually reached the point it passed a billion pounds!
The money was always going to arrive tomorrow and he was happy to part with another postal order to make sure he wasn’t going to miss out. He paid out thousands and thousands of pounds.
I pointed out the “cheque” he had received for £1 million as an advance of his winnings didn’t have his correct name and a quick check showed the bank didn’t exist! He understood what I was saying when I described it being like the Bank of Mickey Mouse and got very angry with me!
He had a phone call, before his family had his phone disconnected, to say he had won a bonus prize of an expensive car which would be delivered. He got a phone call to say they were struggling to find his house but they would be with him in a day or two for sure! They never appeared but according to him that was ok because his house (visible on Google Streetview) was difficult to find and his millions were still going to come.
His family fell all out with him, and sadly with each other, as the scammers found more and more ways to get money out of him.
Is it a surprise that today’s Rangers Rumours made me recall what was really a sad story?
The final part of the story is that even after being admitted to a care home he carried on blaming his family for not supporting him to get the money that he was entitled to. It finally stopped last year when he passed away.
You will have to trust me that my story is 100% true!
Reading the post earlier about Aberdeen at their peak in the 80s brought back loads of ( some painful ) memories . I well remember as an 18 year old travelling home and away to follow Celtic and receiving many a pumpings by an Excellent Aberdeen team . I never realised at the time that these were indeed heady days . I remember Rooting for Aberdeen in the ECWC final against Aberdeen and the whole house erupting with John Hewits winning Goal . They also went on to win the European Super Cup . Even as a young boy I always felt Aberdeen never got the praise they deserved , they also wiped the floor with an excellent Ipswich Town side who were managed by none other than Bobby Robson. . Think it was a 5-1 aggregate score and if my memory is correct they even missed a late penalty ???? Also Dundee Utd winning the league , beating Barcelona in the Nou Camp ,( what a night that was , can still remember Lorraine Kelly on Breakfast time News celebrating the next morning !!) drawing 2-2 with Man U at old Trafford , pumping a very good Borrusia 5 nil ? at Tannadice and not doing themselves justice over a 2 legged Final against Gothengerg. What great days they were . What changed ?? The money side of things definetely changed things , no doubt about that but I really do feel that what totally fecked it up was David Murray and all that happened under his Tenure. I wont go into it as we are all sick of hearing about it . What it did do is eventually make Celtic realise its potential at home and through a helluva lot of patient hard work by the Celtic board and crucial commitment by Celtic fans Celtic are now light years ahead of every other club financially domestically . Honestly I am not gloating , this is not a good thing for our game. This caused many , crucially the SFA to then wrongly think that the only solution to a strong Celtic was to have a strong ( stronger ) "Rangers" at all costs . This was spectacularly wrong , not once have they thought " what would be good for the game not just Celtic and Rangers " . I honestly do not know how we get out of this , yes a fairer distributions of cash but to do that realistically at the moment means Celtic having to give a percentage of money they have honestly earned from any limited success they may or may not have.in Europe. Celtic and some Celtic fans would feel they would be getting unfairly penalised for rolling their sleeves up years ago and working proffesionally behind the scenes to achieve a well oiled football operation. I would like to see a fair percentage of European money being distributed to the top league but it would need to come with conditions and this is where I think it probably would 'nt work. Simple things like , only grass parks in top division , FFP is a must but we need a brush taken to the SFA . We need a forward thinking body who genuinely want football to flourish in this Country …….can you see the problems already ? And thats only scratching the surface . Just heard that the so called "Dossier" is being delayed for another 24 – 48 hours……….and again there is another major stumbling point . A club who continually sh*t all over every club in the country , a loose cannon since they were formed in 2012 And still no one stands up to them I sound like a Celtic Board man but Im really not , yes they on the whole have done really well but their silence over res 12 and their whole silence on things like the 5WA stinks to high heaven . I like most on here just wanna have a competitive league free of all the moon howling from Govan and their poodles in the media
jimbo 5th May 2020 at 10:26
I have been trying to find out some information on gate receipts but came up blank. As far as I recall gate receipts used to be shared 50/50 after the home side had deducted expenses. I don’t know when this changed.
=====================================
My own recollection was the early 1980s.
A check on Wiki confirms the date as February 1981, with the source being Bob Crampsey’s 1990 book “The First 100 years. The Official Centenary History of the Scottish Football League”.
I wouldn’t doubt the writings of a former Brain of Britain.
easyJambo
My old man's geography teacher, so he tells me
Highlander 5th May 2020 at 08:36
===============
Most of my complaints are about the media, and are valid in my view.
In terms of the Authorities. Jim Farry, head of the SFA, deliberately cheated Celtic. Resolution 12 came into being because the SFA denied Celtic a place in the Champions League by wrongly awarding a licence to Rangers. A Referee lied to the Celtic Manager in 2010, and the SFA covered it up, with the help of a head of Refereeing who had to leave when it was exposed he sent a bigoted e-mail. The media supported the authorities every time.
I definitely wasn't paranoid enough.
Jimbo/Easyjambo
——————————————
Bob Crampsey in his book "The first hundred years" explains that this was approved by clubs in February 1981. So well remembered EJ!
The book is well worth a read and crammed with facts. Loads of information that I had completely forgotten.
I've not paid as much attention to Dossiergate as most on here have, so I'm not up to speed on all the arguments surrounding it, but one thing that struck me from the outset was the great likelihood that, in the end, there would be nothing more to the 'dossier' than a couple of sheets of paper in a brown envelope (OK, it might be white). There was absolutely no doubt in my mind that at one stage (or more than one) there would be a delay in producing the killer evidence. In fact I think there has always been little doubt that there was sod all evidence of anything more than some disquiet over the way the whole matter has been conducted.
TRFC are not doing this because the SPFL actions have disadvantaged them in any way – they are not even disadvantaged by Celtic being deemed champions, for TRFC do not 'own' the league trophy and have no claim to it. They are only doing whatever it is they are attempting to do to spoil things for their hated rivals while sucking up to the most sentiently disadvantaged sections of their support.
CO,
"Corrupt official 5th May 2020 at 09:55
I was under the impression the explosive dossier was already prepared. Mainly because on 11th April Sevco claimed it had been seen by other member clubs, Mebbe it keeps blowing up…Did anybody notice if uncle Tom had singed eyebrows and a sooty face?….It's so hard to tell on the radio. https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-football-club-statement/"
Seeing, and reading, a dossier – or any document – are two entirely different things. I suspect the TRFC board members and their PR flute blower know this, but the effect of saying others have seen it gives the impression they've read it and agree with TRFC's conclusions.
I suspect what's most likely to have happened is that a member of TRFC's board has held up a 'dossier' and said something along the lines of, 'we have evidence here of illegal actions by the SPFL and think it should be presented before an independent inquiry, do you agree?'
As in all cases where a 'trusted' member of society says such a thing the correct answer is, 'yes, I think it (evidence of wrongdoing) should be properly investigated'.
Anyone else heard or seen that the explosive dossier has been downgraded to “unfair play”. It seems it will be Thursday before it is released on another note where has mister reasonablechap disappeared to these last couple of days? I so looked forward to his daily spouting.
Allyjambo 5th May 2020 at 12:07
I was paraphrasing Ally and the exact statement says :-
“Other member clubs, who have seen the evidence we hold, share our concerns.
“We call for the suspension of the SPFL’s Chief Executive, Neil Doncaster and its legal adviser, Rod McKenzie while an independent investigation is conducted.”
————————————–
I doubt they can now claim to have been holding up Fat Sally's list of gambling footballers in error. This "evidence", is clearly relating to the suspension calls and the demands of an independent investigation.
Obviously the claim means the evidence was in their possession prior to the 3pm release on the 11th. That was three and a half weeks ago.
Plenty of time to save up some money to buy more ink for the printer………Unless they have decided to add a flourish of grandeur and the monks are having difficulty acquiring decent quality vellum….As we all know, goose bum-feathers are not what they used to be.. Low quality quills made from reed were sometimes used, and these were known as the bum's-rush, resulting in a blotted copy-book.
I think that's where we are headed..
shug 5th May 2020 at 12:28
'..where has mister reasonable chap disappeared to these last couple of days? '
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I eschew the reasonable chap's description of me as a 'barrack-room lawyer' (no offence to any squaddies out there, but as I wore naval uniform the appropriate insult would be 'sea-lawyer') but he may be studying hard to find a convincing rebuttal of my interpretation of sections 296/297 of the Companies Act 2006!
, which is that a vote on a resolution cast before the end of the 28day balloting period is not 'signified' legally until the end of the balloting period, and may be changed right up to the last minute of the 28 day period.
Shug@12.28
In the words of the song soon to be sung live from the Albert Hall on Friday “we’ll meet (RC) again some sunny day”
If not him, then some other bot from the same point of origin.
Allyjambo 5th May 2020 at 12:07
While, like many others, I initially thought the shenanigans had a major element of wanting to scupper Celtic’s 9IAR, I now think the Ibrox club are actually more desperate for getting any SPFL cash available in their hands – and pronto.
Yes a ‘null & void’ stops 9IAR or playing out the season gives them an long shot at stopping 9IAR but as we know there finances aren’t great then they do appear to need money coming in at regular intervals from whatever source they can get it from.
Some form of advance payment or loan is something they probably need and given what we know re King stepping down and Park’s own businesses being hit hard by the current coronavirus situation. No matter how staunch, I think even the Blue Room will be more worried about immediate survival than Celtic’s continuing trophy haul.
However all they have done is go about things in a cack-handed manner and it looks like this latest piece of nonsense is going to blow up in their faces.
On the other hand Hearts, who also will want/need cash at some point, are more concerned about the longer terms issues of having relegation forced upon them. Like Partick and Stanraer they will most likely be able to cut their cloth accordingly if a spell in the division down is the ultimate result.
While a kick in the teeth, I believe the general support and the FOH at Tynecastle would see the club through regardless of what is finally decided re the 2019/2020 season and the way forward.
As I have said many a time the T’Rangers support have been loyal and put cash into the club since 2012 but that is never going to be enough given the way the club is run.
Yes the message to the fans is try and stop 9IAR but the deeper issue is needing cash – and fast.
And just while I am on I note Doncaster’s interview on Saturday was all about the money.
I might be wrong but I can’t recall much being discussed about what thoughts had been given to how to deal with teams disadvantaged by the SPFL boards resolution.
The recognition of member clubs losing out and talk of restructuring all appeared to be after thoughts.
Doncaster was not really challenged on the thinking (or lack thereof) behind that, as IIRC
If I was a betting man I would say the Rangers have nothing of any substance and backed themselves into a corner . Now trying to hatch some sorta face saving exit plan
Of course, we could all be wrong.
Possibly, TRFC does indeed have a bulging ‘SECRET DOSSIER!’, which is overflowing with absolute proof that the SPL is well dodgy?
…and we would then all have to thank The Rangers for their sterling input!
Well, the Internet Bampots have been trying to tell anyone who will listen – since 2011/12 and before – that the SPL/SPFL is an allegedly, corrupt and a categorically, incompetent organisation.
(Ditto the SFA.)
But, nobody seems to have taken much interest of the supporters’ concerns: including the other 41 clubs and especially the SMSM.
It does seem a bit surreal though, that the Ibrox club/company is attempting to portray itself as leading a crusade to clean up Scottish football governance!
Crazy.
StevieBC 5th May 2020 at 14:44
If T'Rangers do have something nuclear on the footballing authorities we shouldn't really be shooting the messenger.
However, I think it is more likely a load of nonsense that won't stand up in court.
More chance that it is Park, like Charles Green's comments about his **** friend, just planning his exit strategy via a ban sine die for bringing the game into disrepute
On a lighter note
EJ "may the 4th go with you" Groan!
Reminds me of a prog rock band back in the seventies who would end their concerts with a few strikes on the percussion from the drummer which was described on their live album as a " 4 gong conclusion".
Also, I remember one of the sun's internal headlines from a few years back.
The story concerned a violinist with the London philharmonic who complained to the police that somebody was breaking into his house at night and moving things around.
It turned out that he was doing the housework whilst sleepwalking.
The headline:
"Orchestral man hoovers in the dark"
HS
wottpi 5th May 2020 at 14:24
'.I now think the Ibrox club are actually more desperate for getting any SPFL cash available in their hands..'
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TRFC, wottpi, came into existence because people wanted to make money.
They were aided and abetted in their desire to coin it in by the Football Authorities who manufactured The Big Lie.
They then were emboldened to imply in their RIFC 'Prospectus' that they were the Glasgow Rangers of 1872, the most successful football club in the world, instead of telling the simple, undeniable truths that that Rangers was Liquidated and that TRFC was a brand new creation which had to be newly admitted into professional football.
I had no real difficulty in accepting the admission of a new club as a new club, bottom of the lowest league.(I don't remember any other prospective applicant clubs kicking up a fuss?).
But the lie that somehow RFC of 1872 was not liquidated and remains in existence with a mere change of name and ownership was spawned in the rotten hearts and just cannot be tolerated.
It's the most ridiculous lie that was ever concocted in Sport.
And the Football Authorities and the SMSM were not and are not honest brokers, propagating the Lie as they have done and continue to do. It is impossible to believe that they genuinely do not see Truth.
I have the same name as my dad. I also have his war medals and Army paybook. My dad is dead.
I am alive. I have his medals not because I earned them, and his Army pay-book, not because I served in the Scots Guards at Cassino.
I am not my dad.
TRFC did not earn the sporting honours and entitlements of RFC of 1872 and had no membership of Scottish Football before 2012.
My dad is buried in Dalbeth. RFC of 1872 is in Liquidation.
I can say I cherish my dad's memory. The supporters of RFC of 1872 can say they cherish the memory of RFC.
I can say that I hope to have some of the traits and qualities my dad had. Supporters of TRFC can hope that TRFC has some of the traits and qualities that Rangers of 1872 had.
I cannot say that I am my dad, without being deemed a fool.
Normal, intelligent, sane and honest people cannot sensibly and honestly say that TRFC is Rangers of 1872.
No, greed and lies are at the very heart of the deception that has been foisted on to Scottish Football.
The sheer bloody cheek and arrogance of it all!
Bad cess to every lying sod who has tried to con us.
And if covid-19 brings financial destruction upon them, let it do so.
Oh Oh
https://www.ibroxnoise.co.uk/2020/05/sports-direct-rangers-shocker-this-cant.html?fbclid=IwAR1T3cTPqbJXYESWNW1Rmf97boYGDnFbTKRwLeBGXTylQaEG7AhZhu81YWU
I think that what’s happening in the SEVCO attack on the SPFL is that the football authority is strategically winning – especially the PR battle – as they have surprised the troops from Govan by coming out of their trenches in the past week through counter attacking, and outmanoeuvering them.
If SEVCO were confident about their position, they would have, and surely intended (?) to, ‘double down’ on their resolution by now. Instead, I feel we are starting to witness the crumbling of their hopes of toppling Doncaster & co.
It’s beginning to look a lot like (no not Christmas) Bonaparte’s infamous retreat from Moscow.
Before I finish, please take a few minutes to digest this infinite wisdom from Steven Thomson (another legend?):-
“…if Celtic are given the League, Rangers fans won’t accept that across the board. Universally, it won’t be accepted”. Whit????
I have used bold to emphasise the idiocy of his pronouncement.
I agree that the SPFL should be held to account (including historically e.g. 2000 -2012) – but not now and certainly not in this ridiculous and despicable manner.
The latest Joint Respose Group statement
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/coronavirus-joint-response-group-update-5-may/?rid=13929
Neil Doncaster, SPFL Chief Executive: “We gave the Minister a frank summary of the existential crisis our game is facing. Gate receipts make up a far higher proportion of our income than in England, which benefits from huge TV deals, so until we get back to playing in front of crowds, our game will remain in grave peril.
“We have already seen the UK Government pledging £16m support to Rugby League in England to prevent it from being devastated by COVID-19. The longer we are unable to play matches in Scotland, the more essential will be significant financial support for our hard-pressed national sport.”
In other words we want more government money.
easyJambo 5th May 2020 at 17:09
…
Neil Doncaster, SPFL Chief Executive:
“… so until we get back to playing in front of crowds, our game will remain in grave peril…"
======
You know what?
I think that is the first time I have ever heard the SPFL CEO mention his paying customers!
However, he's a bit dismissive to refer to us as "crowds" – and especially when he expects / assumes that we will save the business he manages…
If the SPFL is ever to become a more customer focused organisation, now could be an ideal time to start ?
bect67 5th May 2020 at 16:58
Who really cares what Rangers fans will or won't accept Bec?. They can't even accept their club died, but nobody else has trouble with it….Then there is the added fact they are just plain wrong !
I think you are correct about the tactical exchanges and PR position, and wouldn't be surprised if some stern letters have been issued on the QT. I was listening to a link of Alex EBT Rae on Radio Clyde trying to raise the issue of loans/advances again, and short of telling him to STFU he was shut down in no uncertain terms by Hugh Keevins.
They made it clear the station was not going to go there. It was done and a busted flush.
Today the dossier was delayed.
The SPFL must hold firm and make no decisions re ending the Premiership until at least May 12. Rangers are trying to provoke a rush to judgement so that they can make out to their media placemen that they haven't been listened to whilst using every trick in the scammers book to maximise income.
Corrupt official 5th May 2020 at 09:55
………………
Rangers will not be bullied into silence. We believe it is in the interests of all Scottish clubs and supporters that the evidence, which is alarming, be addressed as quickly as possible.
……………
Rangers big reveal of dossier of evidence against SPFL pushed back.
…
Can’t be that alarming and to be adressed as quickley as possible if they can push it back.
…………………………
If ever there was a time for complete openness and transparency, it is now.
……..
But lets hold off another couple of days.
……………………….
“The farcical conduct of this affair seems to me to bring the corporate governance and business operations of the SPFL into sharp focus.
…
The pot calling the kettle there.
…………………………………
“All we ask for is equality and respect. In the past few days, we have become alarmed at a seeming lack of even-handedness and fair play from the SPFL. This is surely unacceptable and, if substantiated, must be remedied.
“Other member clubs, who have seen the evidence we hold, share our concerns.
…
lack of even-handedness and fair play? But some clubs have seen this evidence and others now have to wait.
………………………..
Who writes this stuff for the ibrox club? they are all over the place, no wonder their fans have not got a clue what goes on at ibrox.
easyJambo 5th May 2020 at 17:09
'…In other words we want more government money…'
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If the Scottish Government gives any significant funding to 'Scottish Football' on account of the effects of the shutdown due to covid-19, there would surely be a case for top-slicing to compensate to some degree any club actually relegated when they might have had a fighting chance of saving themselves if the remaining matches (if the season is curtailed) were played?
An informative read from the Guardian .
https://www.theguardian.com/football/the-agony-and-the-ecstasy/2020/may/05/celebrating-great-inventors-changed-football-forever
John Clark 5th May 2020 at 19:33
If the Scottish Government gives any significant funding to ‘Scottish Football’ on account of the effects of the shutdown due to covid-19, there would surely be a case for top-slicing to compensate to some degree any club actually relegated when they might have had a fighting chance of saving themselves if the remaining matches (if the season is curtailed) were played?
======================================
I wouldn’t be giving them any more than is being given to other businesses of comparable size. Most clubs will already be using the furlough scheme so are already in receipt of taxpayers cash. There are businesses across the country who are having to lay off staff, while the biggest clubs continue to pay large sums as well as deferring a proportion of wages to their top players. In most cases the intention is to keep their most valuable “assets” sweet.
I’m afraid that when the bottom falls out any market, as it is currently doing, then football clubs need to do the same as all other businesses do in the similar circumstances, cut their costs savagely.
There is an option for clubs to stop paying wages while games are suspended, by using clauses in their contracts. For some reason they would prefer to get handouts.
Scottish football needs to be mothballed for the next six months or so, then pick up the pieces from there.
eJ, quite agree.
Why would the SPFL think it is deserving of any preferential treatment from the government?
It is just a leisure pursuit.
The SPFL might be in for a shock / reality check when the restrictions are eventually lifted.
ALL discretionary spend across the country will be inhibited for some time to come, IMO.
Cinemas, theatres, concerts, etc – and Scottish football – might not be top of peoples' priorities and especially if they are trying to clear debt accumulated during the lockdown – and when the job market is probably going to be very unstable in the near term.
adam812 5th May 2020 at 19:02
The SPFL must hold firm and make no decisions re ending the Premiership until at least May 12. Rangers are trying to provoke a rush to judgement so that they can make out to their media placemen that they haven't been listened to whilst using every trick in the scammers book to maximise income.
=================================================
Just to be accurate, the resolution is in the name of Hearts, Rangers and Stranraer.
I would also point out that the resolution is in relation to an independent inquiry and that it will be the SPFL members who vote on it, not the SPFL board.
If Hearts, Rangers and Stranraer cannot convince enough of the members to support their resolution then that means that the other members are not interested enough in having one. For whatever their reason.
Whether the SPFL board decide to finalise the last remaining division of the SPFL is really a separate issue in my view.
I hope the resolution is passed and the inquiry takes place. Well provided it has the correct scope / remit and is conducted by the correct people. That is by no means a certainty.
Homunculus 5th May 2020 at 21:10
'…I hope the resolution is passed and the inquiry takes place..
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So do I, subject to it being truly independent and the terms of reference are to the point
Either RIFC/TRFC will be shown to have come damn near to being guilty of slander in making unfounded accusations and are thereby shown to have made an ar.e of themselves, or officers/Board members of the SPFL will be shown to have acted improperly in the execution of their duties.
But I suppose with the track record each party has had in the truth stakes over the last decade, I expect there would be a fudge to save face all round: difficult, unprecedented situation, everyone meaning well, time of the essence, no chicanery or wrong-doing, just unintentional carelessness with the balloting process and announcing of status of the vote before the balloting period concluded; lessons to be learned, apologies and shake hands all round……
While I understand the desire to help protect the senior game, with some Government help if need be, we really need to start looking beyond the immediate crisis.
There is currently talk of perhaps not getting youth football played again until 2021.
How much long term damage is football going suffer?
Like the teachers strike of old, 11 a side football and sports like rugby are going to take a hit.
Sports like golf, tennis and some athletic events will be easier to run and participate in.
Kids may turn to other sports or away from sports all together and football may suffer in the long term.
I appreciate the immediate need to help players and staff but the repercussions of this situation have the potential to be far reaching and wide ranging if we are not prepared and alert.
Just for accuracy the late Bob Crampsey was indeed a schoolteacher but his subject was History. He spent many a year teaching it at Holyrood in Glasgow's South Side and was later Headmaster at St Ambrose Coatbridge.
easyJambo 5th May 2020 at 20:42 Edit
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John Clark 5th May 2020 at 19:33
If the Scottish Government gives any significant funding to ‘Scottish Football’ on account of the effects of the shutdown due to covid-19, there would surely be a case for top-slicing to compensate to some degree any club actually relegated when they might have had a fighting chance of saving themselves if the remaining matches (if the season is curtailed) were played?
======================================
I wouldn’t be giving them any more than is being given to other businesses of comparable size. Most clubs will already be using the furlough scheme so are already in receipt of taxpayers cash. There are businesses across the country who are having to lay off staff, while the biggest clubs continue to pay large sums as well as deferring a proportion of wages to their top players. In most cases the intention is to keep their most valuable “assets” sweet.
I’m afraid that when the bottom falls out any market, as it is currently doing, then football clubs need to do the same as all other businesses do in the similar circumstances, cut their costs savagely.
There is an option for clubs to stop paying wages while games are suspended, by using clauses in their contracts. For some reason they would prefer to get handouts.
Scottish football needs to be mothballed for the next six months or so, then pick up the pieces from there.
==============
Mothballed and Govt support. We must stop thinking like this. 🙂
@ClydeSSB
You mentioned Govt providing £16m (?) to English rugby. Is that being spread over all clubs to maintain existing wage levels or has minimum wage level to cover been set to provide more to meet fixed costs? Is that not an issue Scot Gov should want addressed if approached?
Replying to
@Auldheid
@ClydeSSB
I think the term "Mothballing" might become more frequently heard in coming weeks. Some clubs, if not all, might need Govt (i.e. taxpayer) assistance but subsiding high wages cannot be a feature of any funding.
That was to Clyde SSB earlier tonight who will eventually catch up with reality. Players will be the ones under pressure in a buyers market. Perhaps an emergency wage ceiling might be adopted with increments leading up to it based on percentage of existing pay?
I'd be interested on folks views on how players wages during mothballing might be assessed.
That is players already with a contract.
Players out of contract not wanted would not be covered.
Players out of contract but wanted would be limited by mothballing affordability but as you say cannot want to be treated better than their average supporter in the same loss of wage position.
paddy malarkey 5th May 2020 at 19:48 Edit
An informative read from the Guardian .
https://www.theguardian.com/football/the-agony-and-the-ecstasy/2020/may/05/celebrating-great-inventors-changed-football-forever
=============
I wish John Alexander Brodie's goal net invention had found its way to South Pollok football pitches behind the old National Savings Bank at Cowglen circa 1966.
South Pollock was at the time one of the few grass parks in Glasgow, the inappropriately named Glasgow Green pitches having only migrated from black ash clinker to red blaes a few year before.
Red blaes was for some reason seen as an improvement, possibly because the wound resulting from a side tackle looked better in red than black. For the record I never made a slide tackle in my life on black or red, my brains were in my feet, my cowardice flowed all the way from my heart to my head.
Anyhoo back at netless South Pollok I ran on to a through pass and rounded the keeper with a swerve Graham Leggat would have been proud of (if you don't know who he was you are too young for SFM) but had to go wide of the keeper to form the narrowest of angles . The goal from my line of sight was the width of the ball plus maybe 2cm clearance either side.
However such was the accuracy of my finishing shot it cleared both posts, equidistant from either as it sailed into the space where a net should have been.
I turned to celebrate my achievement to see the referee pointing in the wrong direction, not to the centre circle but the 6 yard box for a goal kick.
The full time whistle blew soon after to halt my protestations, which the ref took in good humour, he just did not believe me.
Looking back, although I ranted on all the way back to the dressing room I don't blame him, I was a bit amazed myself that I had scored with such precision, sclaffs that went in by accident being my forte…..
Auldheid
Your question of players wages got me thinking. Nothing will be straightforward while this pandemic is with us.
The biggest issue will, of course, be revenue. How can clubs earn enough to be able to operate?
I hope I am being overly pessimistic; but I fear some clubs may well go under over the next few weeks or months.
Those that do survive may well find that all professional football is forced to be played behind closed doors next season.
If so, it's possible that some clubs may decide to try and keep going by cutting costs. Perhaps those in the lower divisions could dispense with professional players and coaches and play as defacto amateurs for a season? Maybe they could look at drafting in volunteers to help maintain the football park and keep their stadia neat and tidy?
However, what if a regular testing programme for players and coaching staff is obligatory? Who pays for that?
Who would pay for the match officials?
How would they pay traveling costs?
Training and match gear?
I wonder if some clubs may simply decide that they simply won't be in a position to put any sort of team together until fans are allowed back.
Could some of the smaller clubs think it would be safer to temporarily go dormant than risk going out of business permanently?
I genuinely think the SPFL should be asking its members, how many of you would like to take a year out?
TV revenues can probably keep the show on the road for the top tier clubs, but I'm coming round to the idea that there may not be any games played in the lower divisions at all.
For the Premiership, there has been talk of some sort of PPV deal (for one year) that would give season ticket holders live tv access to their club's games. PPV would work best (or may only work) for the clubs with the greatest number of supporters.
I wonder if the current restructuring efforts may, in the end, come down to finding somewhere for those teams still standing.
I have concerns that there may be fewer than we have been assuming.
It may be that only the top tier goes ahead in 2020/21. The question is then, how many teams could be in it?
Could we, for example, have an 18 team Premiership for one season?
Is it not the May holiday this weekend and sevco are releasing this so called dossier on Thursday well what happened to the claim that clubs will have loads of time to read over and digest the contents.I can only guess that it is a few lines on a scrap of paper if the timing is anything to go on.
'John Clark 5th May 2020 at 19:33
If the Scottish Government gives any significant funding to 'Scottish Football' on account of the effects of the shutdown due to covid-19…'
#################################
Doesn't UEFA have strict rules regarding State Aid to associations & clubs? Have those rules been waived, or are they likely to be temporarily rescinded?
"Rangers will not be bullied into silence. We believe it is in the interests of all Scottish clubs and supporters that the evidence, which is alarming, be addressed as quickly as possible."
As quickly as possible? It is now 26 days since TRFC published that statement. Why the hurry?
State Aid?
Top level football clubs getting more state aid than they already are, in line with any other business, is repugnant to me. There are more deserving causes.
Why not give hand outs to Elton John and the Rolling Stones etc to compensate for not being able to perform live on tour?
Jingso.Jimsie 6th May 2020 at 09:53
'..Doesn't UEFA have strict rules regarding State Aid to associations & clubs?'
""""""""""""""""""""""""
Good point,Jingo.jimsie.
It might be argued though that if every country whose economy has been devastated by the pandemic included financial help to the football industry as part of the recovery of the country's economy then it would not be 'state aid' in terms of the purpose of the UEFA rules?
Is football in the UK a significant enough industry in terms of its contribution to GDP and employment in most countries in Europe? Quite possibly, through the whole chain of direct and indirect employment and services.
But UEFA would have to try to ensure that those countries who might for political, propaganda reasons try to ensure sporting victory by heavily subsidising particular clubs in European competitions didn't get away with it.
Any more than a national governance body should get away with issuing UEFA competition licences to an unentitled club in order to ease that club's financial troubles!
https://sentinelcelts.com/2020/05/06/bail-out-fk-off/
HirsutePursuit 6th May 2020 at 02:18
"….Could some of the smaller clubs think it would be safer to temporarily go dormant than risk going out of business permanently?"
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Article 16 of the SFA Arties of Association would have to be got round?
"16.1 Except with the prior written consent of the Board, subject to the terms of Article 4.4 and further on such terms as specified by the Board, no full member shall resign, retire or cease for whatever reason to be a member of the Scottish FA unless it shall have given a minimum of 2 full seasons’ prior written notice of its intention to do so and such member does not owe any money to the Scottish FA or to any other member, or player or recognised football body on the expiry of such notice. The prior written notice required from the member, as aforesaid, shall be irrevocable. In the event that subsequent to providing such written notice the member intimates a desire not to resign, retire or cease for whatever reason to be a member of the Scottish FA, the written notice shall nonetheless remain extant and if the member wishes to continue in membership of the Scottish FA, it shall be required to apply for membership of the Scottish FA in accordance with Article 6.
Corrupt official 6th May 2020 at 10:28
https://sentinelcelts.com/2020/05/06/bail-out-fk-off/
==========
This includes a perfectly valid suggestion: let the leagues / clubs ask Sky, BT and others for a bailout: not from us, the taxpayers.
It’s basic economics. Those of us who want football pay the (inflated) ticket prices, TV subscriptions, etc. Those who don’t want to pay the price, or don’t like football, or just hate all sports choose not to buy.
So, how can a government disburse taxpayers’ money to assist a privately run leisure industry, and which only a percentage of the population actively support?
And I wouldn’t trust the SPFL or the SFA with another penny of public money. They deserve hee haw support, IMO.
My prediction for Dossiergate.
There will be no inquiry. Instead there will be a carefully worded announcement from the SPFL, and possibly one from TRFC, that leaves both sides in the clear. It will all have been a misunderstanding that, after both sides got together, was cleared up amicably. The SPFL will thank TRFC for bringing the matter to their attention and no further action will be required.
The announcement will be couched in language that will go some way to mollifying the bears* while at the same time making it clear the SPFL have conducted the matter completely within the rules.
There will be no explanation made public of what it was actually all about.
Any blame will be shared between Hearts and Stranraer.
*How the rest of us view it will be of no concern to any of the parties involved.
Tom English and Ewan Murray still bleating about loans today.
No wonder self-interest plays such a part. Murray's concern is evidently driven by Hearts supporting self interest. Yet when interviewed by the Celtic Underground website last year he basically shrugged his shoulders when asked about Res 12, LNS etc. He couldn't care a jot.
Where English's interest and focus is coming from is not so clear, but he too has ignored much worse issues to shame our game since 2011.
No wonder there is self interest among clubs and fans when the media are so selective in what they get angry about.
Agreed Allyjambo – plus the fact that Robertson has to go.
.. then the SEVCO/SMSM focus will inevitably thereafter switch to undermining Celtic’s second 9IAR achievement – which they will surely be awarded. Asteriskgate will replace the ‘null and void’ movement.
In fact, this has already started, with a couple of whinging statements from Steven (where did I leave my violin?) Gerrard in the DR and ET about how unfair it all is.
But then, I’m forgetting about all this ‘no surrender’ malarkey – in which there is apparently no scope for reality, common sense, humility, self-respect, decency sporting integrity etc etc.
I feel also that, one way or another, SG could be ‘on his bike’ soon.
As an aside, while I’m on, Credit to Peter Martin (PLZ Soccer) who has uttered the ‘forbidden’ L word twice in tha past week on his show!
Absolutely, Aj.
A truce will be declared.
Even if TRFC did have something tangible, why would anyone want to initiate an independent investigation at this time?
Presumably it would have to be conducted by a reputable, (i.e. very expensive), legal firm?
Just what Scottish football needs right now: additional expenditure, and external to the game.
The end result could/should be no investigation and no spend.
But the damage has already been done.
TRFC has actively orchestrated several weeks of acrimonious mud slinging via the SMSM, with personal aspersions cast at the Chairman and CEO of the SPFL.
And the reputation / image of Scottish, senior football has sunk even lower…
AJ, Stevie, I suspect you will be correct in the outcomes. But,
"TRFC has actively orchestrated several weeks of acrimonious mud slinging via the SMSM, with personal aspersions cast at the Chairman and CEO of the SPFL.
And the reputation / image of Scottish, senior football has sunk even lower." (SBC)
If ever there was a case for charges of bringing the game into disrepute then that is it. Whatever the maximum penalty for this rule break is, they deserve it. And an apology too.
‘StevieBC 6th May 2020 at 12:54
TRFC has actively orchestrated several weeks of acrimonious mud slinging via the SMSM, with personal aspersions cast at the Chairman and CEO of the SPFL…’
#######################################
Whatever the ‘dossier’ turns out to contain, I find it difficult to accept that, five minutes after TRFC’s statement alleging ‘corruption, coercion & bullying’, the SPFL weren’t onto the SFA’s Compliance Officer to report an official of a member club (S. Robertson of TRFC) for his actions in naming three individuals (including the SPFL’s lawyer!) as involved in (possibly criminal) wrongdoing.
In not doing so, the SPFL has already been found guilty in the court of public opinion (‘there must be something to it, it’s all over the media!’); hence Doncaster & MacLellan having to make public statements (verbally or written) regarding the matter.
It goes without saying Doncaster, Regan and several others have been guilty of much worse ‘crimes’ against football governance (indisputable ones) than this latest issue. But even if TRFC have anything of substance against the individuals there is a proper dignified way to go about it. They have made a show trial of it which has dominated the media for more than 3 weeks now. A trial without evidence and a presumption of guilt!
StevieBC 6th May 2020 at 11:33
'.And I wouldn’t trust the SPFL or the SFA with another penny of public money.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
And 'SportScotland' showed itself to be a bit careless in looking after the taxpayer's money given to RFC of '72. They appear to have made the assumption that TRFC was the same club as that which got a pile of money to assist with the Auchinairn training centre.
It took them quite a while to realise that the contract signed by Rangers of 1872 football club would not have been legally enforceable against the quite new football club founded in 2012, which had become the owner of the land and property, and could have told SportScotland to stuff its contract!
They had to get TRFC to accept in 2014 liability for what SDM had signed up for years before when he was given the money.
jimbo 6th May 2020 at 13:28
"….Whatever the maximum penalty for this rule break is, they deserve it..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I think we've looked at this before, Jimbo:
From the Judicial Panel Protocol
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/5604/judicial-panel-protocol-2019-20.pdf
71 94.1 No recognised football body, club, official, Team Official or other member of Team Staff, player, match official, or other person under the jurisdiction of the Scottish FA shall bring the game into disrepute.
[the maximum penalty for clubs in the premiership]
SPFL Scottish Premiership clubs £5,000,000 and/or ejection from Scottish Cup and/or exclusion from the Scottish Cup and/or any player registration restrictions and/or suspension and/ or termination of membership and/or any sanction or disposal not expressly provided above, provided that such other sanctions are sanctions listed in respect of other Rules or at Paragraph 3 to this Annex A.
In my opinion insufficiently founded allegations, bordering on criminal slander, of improper behaviour of officials/directors of the SPFL in the execution of their duties rank very high indeed.Perhaps they are the very worst allegations that can be made against any holder of office!
Will anyone against whom allegations have been made personally take legal action?
Will the matter even be referred to the Compliance Officer?
Will the SMSM ever tell the truth about any matter affecting TRFC?
So the dossier is now in the hands of the SPFL?
About time too.
(So says a friend of a friend on a sports desk. Usually right!)
Gone very quiet on here.Have we been released from lockdown?
I see some sevco fans are complaining that they have bought their season books the money has come out of their accounts then they are getting an email saying the SB has been cancelled I hope this is only a wee glitch.
jimbo 6th May 2020 at 14:16
And it will come to naught if Hearts, Rangers and Stranraer cannot convince another 29 of the 39 teams to vote for the resolution.
And as it I understand it those have to be split properly over the voting groups i.e. they have to reach the 75% in all of the groups. Though that could easily be a misunderstanding on my part so I am happy to be corrected.
I wonder if Hearts and Stranraer will join Rangers in "taking it all the way" if they fail in getting the resolution passed.
"Regan, now a Fifa and Uefa consultant,….." I read on this link
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52557383 .
Well! 'beat me on the bottom with a 'Woman's Weekly!'' *
I don't think I knew that he had such a job!
I am flabbergasted.
He became CEO of the SFA in the middle of 2010, so the Res 12 licence issue arose during his term of office.
He has questions to answer, as far as I'm concerned!
Maybe I should 'demand' an independent inquiry into Regan's involvement in any capacity in European Football?
* I use that line from the wonderful Victoria Wood's tour de force comic song performance.
[Sadly I don't know how to give the link to the youtube video of her performance, but most of you will find it easily enough. Those of you who saw it live will remember it, and enjoy seeing and hearing it again]
shug 6th May 2020 at 20:16
'.I see some sevco fans are complaining that .'
"""""""""""""""
shug, could you give us some kind of reference to let us know where you are seeing this, please?
It helps me ( and presumably, others)to check sources as independently as possible (unlike the hacks of the SMSM who, by and large just swallow what they are told in their role as propagandists for the Big Lie)
From follow follow site JC.
GEODGC
Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Today at 10:29 PM
Had the same email myself tonight. I renewed on the first day and just got the cancellation tonight, the money is still showing as having gone out of my account with no sign of a refund.
Looks like it was a glitch JC.
https://www.followfollow.com/forum/threads/season-ticket-cancelled.119363/
They also seem to still be going on about the Gretna loan.
https://www.followfollow.com/forum/threads/gretna-loan-details-deepen-controversy-over-plan-to-end-scottish-football-season.119532/.
I was wondering what it has to do with the spfl I would imagine it was the spl at that time and we all know what that means spfl is a newco not the same.
Phil yesterday.
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/05/06/a-dodgy-dossier-from-a-duplicitous-club/
shug 6th May 2020 at 23:48
'.From follow follow site JC…'
"""""""""""""""""""""
Thanks, shug.
shug 7th May 2020 at 00:03
The SPFL is basically just an expanded, renamed SPL. It still has it's original company registration number.
Unlike Sevco Scotland, which although it changed it's name to The Rangers Football Club Limited in July 2012 was only formed that May.
The original Rangers, incorporated in 1899, changed it's name to RFC 2012 PLC on the same day in July 2012 and is currently going through the liquidation process.
So if the SPL did something, it is the responsibility of the SPFL. However I don't really understand what they did wrong with Gretna. They paid a club early, money it was going to be entitled to, in order to help it see out the season. Doing anything else would surely have led to carnage in the league with it being unable to see out it's fixtures.
The thing is, they make stage payments throughput the year anyway. Presumably to assist clubs with cash flow. What's the big deal here.
Homunculus 7th May 2020 at 08:08
shug 7th May 2020 at 00:03
The SPFL is basically just an expanded, renamed SPL. It still has it’s original company registration number. Unlike Sevco Scotland, which although it changed it’s name to The Rangers Football Club Limited in July 2012 was only formed that May. The original Rangers, incorporated in 1899, changed it’s name to RFC 2012 PLC on the same day in July 2012 and is currently going through the liquidation process. So if the SPL did something, it is the responsibility of the SPFL. However I don’t really understand what they did wrong with Gretna. =================================================
The big deal is its the last straw in town H…..Whattsapp turned out to be just a guy being snidey and releasing some personals before phoning the tranny. The Dundee vote has got Deloittes signature of approval, and the invoice a duffer. The Advance saw uncle Tom loaned his own arse live on air. The Null and voiders are null and void, and the Sevvies are no happy about being glitched out of ST money……. Dossier D-Day is turning into Double D-cup Day…..Just another day in Sevconia.
If they were just looking for something to get Alfies snipped brake-lines out of the paper, they’ve rather over egged the pudding….. Asterisk…Sorry, At the risk… of sounding flippant, What was a dossier of corruption worthy of head Honcho suspensions, has been down-graded to, It’s no fair, that there was some un-minuted meetings….By video link I assume.
It’s nice that the SMSM are prepared to dig into historical issues in their quest for ammo though. I’m sure if they drop Auldheid a line, he will supply them with bucket-loads.
John
I eschew the reasonable chap's description of me as a 'barrack-room lawyer' (no offence to any squaddies out there, but as I wore naval uniform the appropriate insult would be 'sea-lawyer') but he may be studying hard to find a convincing rebuttal of my interpretation of sections 296/297 of the Companies Act 2006!
, which is that a vote on a resolution cast before the end of the 28day balloting period is not 'signified' legally until the end of the balloting period, and may be changed right up to the last minute of the 28 day period.
%%%%%%%%%%%
The legal opinion you are contradicting isn't mine, it is of a QC and junior counsel and centres on SPFL article 185.
Effectively it's a barrack-room lawyer telling a QC he is wrong.
Legal opinion is just that but it would take real legal minds to argue it to a conclusion, not the declared opinion of a messageboard poster.
UTHoops
Tom English and Ewan Murray still bleating about loans today.
No wonder self-interest plays such a part. Murray’s concern is evidently driven by Hearts supporting self interest. Yet when interviewed by the Celtic Underground website last year he basically shrugged his shoulders when asked about Res 12, LNS etc. He couldn’t care a jot…
%%%%%%%%%%%%
You are complaining about journalists still going on about something that is current yet complain about them not wanting to go back 8 years!!!
Many on here are laughing at and ridiculing Rangers ongoing attempts to hold the SPFL to account. You have to understand that in the real world out there, many stopped laughing at the Res.12 efforts years ago and have since forgotten about it.
Not even your own club as a PLC really want to know, nor do the 50,000 ST holders at Parkhead seem to that bothered.
reasonablechap 7th May 2020 at 10:21
Not even your own club as a PLC really want to know, nor do the 50,000 ST holders at Parkhead seem to that bothered.
What research have you done to reach that conclusion ? I’ve just asked the CFC supporter in the house and she’s very interested seeing this expedited , In the interest of fairness , I asked the TRFC fan and she is of the same opinion . They both want it out in the open and dealt with , but for different reasons .
Easyjambo
I wouldn’t be giving them any more than is being given to other businesses of comparable size. Most clubs will already be using the furlough scheme so are already in receipt of taxpayers cash. There are businesses across the country who are having to lay off staff, while the biggest clubs continue to pay large sums as well as deferring a proportion of wages to their top players. In most cases the intention is to keep their most valuable “assets” sweet.
I’m afraid that when the bottom falls out any market, as it is currently doing, then football clubs need to do the same as all other businesses do in the similar circumstances, cut their costs savagely.
There is an option for clubs to stop paying wages while games are suspended, by using clauses in their contracts. For some reason they would prefer to get handouts.
Scottish football needs to be mothballed for the next six months or so, then pick up the pieces from there.
%%%%%%%%%%%%
Agree with most of that.
The general economic fallout is going to be brutal and IMO the end result for Scottish football will be considerable downsizing. This would effectively fast-track our games declining significance relative to the bigger leagues and in European competition.
The current management of the game becones critical relative to other similar sized nations or those at a similar level (eg. see national co-efficient table). That is another good reason why we need good solid, competent and trustworthy people in charge at this point in time.
Those in charge and with influence in European football are not going to be too concerned about much other than the big Five Leagues. The European Conference competition may actually be better for the Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, etc (more games) than the current set-up but Rangers and Celtic risk being left behind somewhat.
It's all up in the air but Considerable Downsizing in the short to medium future is coming.
Big Pink,
I saw this poem on Twitter and thought of you at this very sad time so I thought I'd post it for you and all of us who've lost our dear mothers – and all who have passed but are still so very dear to us.
I hope you are well, my friend, and coping with all the trials that face us at such a time.
An untitled poem by Matthew Payne
To know I'll never hear your voice,
Has been the toughest cross to bear,
For you were always there for me,
A mum that knew the way to care.
And though I always let you down,
By never being strong enough,
You'll always be within my heart,
A special everlasting love!
The (dodgy?) dossier has apparently landed, all 200 pages of it.
David Tanner@DavidTannerTV
Rangers’ dossier of evidence has now been sent to the other 41 #SPFL clubs.
Rangers believe that there are serious legal questions to be answered by officials.
The document runs to over 200 pages of evidence.
The SPFL have insisted that they have done nothing wrong.
@talkSPORT
First snippet from:
Raman Bhardwaj@sportraman
Rangers legal opinion: Neil Doncaster breached his duties in law as a director of the SPFL. Opinion also states Rangers have a reasonable good prospect of obtaining from court an order for the removal of Neil Doncaster as director and chief executive of SPFL.
Paddy
The Scottish game urgently needs competent and trustworthy management to navigate the stormy waters that have arrived and will only become more brutal. The current incumbents at the SPFL have shown themselves to be anything but.
The unconsidered logic being peddled, that we should just forget about this clusterf**k and let them get on the the crisis management doesn't hold up. At a hugely important time, the current SPFL management conflated issues and brought further crisis upon their own shoulders. To which, they didn´t have any satisfactory answers and have only been able to launch a dubious PR campaign.
Required: Some time for objective and professional legal minds to digest the reportedly 200 pages before offering considered opinions.
What we will get: Snap tribal judgements.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EXaIWRNX0AAm1Tc?format=jpg&name=small
200 pages of hot air according to SPFL spokesman
reasonablechap 7th May 2020 at 11:26
So no research done , just an opinion . And no answer , just distraction . Plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose .
Paddy
It’s an opinion based on what has been happening over the past few weeks and I’m not going to write up a list for you. If you have missed some of the recent issues, then I’d suggest you read Easyjambo and RedLichtie from Easter up until now.
Early indications are that TRFC has secured 'legal opinion' which suggests they have a case for the SPFL to answer.
What the Internet Bampots know already: a legal opinion can be secured for anything – if you are paying the fees.
And, since its inception TRFC has been consistently wrong in its legal opinion received, and over numerous court cases.
Doncaster is in a win/win position.
He could already be thoroughly fed up with the nonsense, and fully aware of challenging times ahead for the game financially.
His departure would save face for TRFC.
And Doncaster – being a lawyer himself – could merrily take the SPFL to the cleaners with a huge pay off.
Damn, thought about posting at around 10.10 this morning that something must be about to happen regarding TRFC, but didn't, then one of TRFC's Sky based shills posts on Twitter at 10.59…
The clue was the return of the chameleon-like poster after a 4 day absence posting an uninformative post about a 4 day old post that no response to was going to take the matter forward, even if made more timeously.
Cue a barrage of more uninformative posts making argument just for the sake of argument.
Allyjambo
I haven’t been on for a few days and answered a post that had been directed towards me. It is a feature of messageboards.
As for posts that don’t take matters forward, those are in the vast majority.
Play the ball, not the man.
Timtim 7th May 2020 at 11:34
The language used in the SPFL statement is not just a rebuttal, and suggests they are gearing up to rag-doll Sevco. Due process followed by a disrepute charge imo…
Sevco will get an extra weekend of glitching ST books out of it.
The Dutch health minister doesn't expect football to resume in front of fans until a vaccine is available.
"That is actually only possible if there is a vaccine and no one knows how long it will take. We hope of course soon, but a year or more is very real"
There's been a number of posters here and elsewhere that have suggested, should TRFC's claims prove to be false and/or unfounded, that TRFC should be cited for 'Bringing the Game Into Disrepute', To back this up I will refer loosely to something I, and other Jambos, have mentioned here previously – the similar charge that was brought against Romanov, and ultimately Hearts, for voicing his opinion in a newspaper not even domiciled in the UK. To be able to penalise Hearts the SFA/SPL amended their own rules and applied them retrospectively. So, even if the treatment of Romanov/Hearts was deemed to be fair, how must the charges of corruption, with proof, within the governance of our game be viewed in comparison should the dossier 'proof' turn out to be made up/exaggerated/non-existent/fraudulent and so prove to be vexatious?
I'd suggest that we are entering a period in our game where – either the SPFL will come crashing down in chaos with criminal charges being pursued, or TRFC should face the potential to find themselves clinging on to their place in Scottish football by their fingernails, all depending upon the veracity of the 'evidence', of course. On the other hand, I'd still put my money on a new lump appearing in that Hampden carpet.
Michael Stewart@mstewart_23
The words of a board member who has had a wee read of the “dossier”
“As yet I can’t find a whistle or anyone with the breath to blow it”
What a thoroughly unedifying episode this has been
reasonablechap 7th May 2020 at 12:02
I didn't 'play the man' as no 'man' was mentioned, I just gave a description of a poster's actions that you appear to have recognised. Of course, my post was about the coincidence of a return less than an hour before the release of the 'dossier' was announced and wasn't much of an 'attack' on a poster under any stretch of the imagination.
And, yes, many uninformative posts are posted here, but the post I referred to was no more than a precursor to the usual barrage of similar posts, reminiscent of a pattern observed here over a number of years now whenever the Ibrox fan is about to spread its ordure again.
TRFC’s response to date is a single tweet, which for some reason provides a link to their initial statement on 11 April
Rangers Football Club@RangersFC
#RangersFC will not be bullied into silence.
https://twitter.com/RangersFC/status/1248974633463930880
reasonablechap 7th May 2020 at 11:33
Some time for objective and professional legal minds to digest the reportedly 200 pages before offering considered opinions.
———————————————————–
Why would that be required.
They have sent some papers to the other member clubs of the SPFL in order to try to convince them to support a resolution put forward by Hearts, Rangers and Stranraer.
The other members can do whatever they want with it. Including but not limited to putting it in a shredder.
People don't actually have to do anything just because Rangers said they have to.
If anyone outside of that group want to make comment on it they can, but it will just be people expressing an opinion, which is worth nothing whatsoever if they don't actually have a vote on the resolution.
Tweet from Graham Spiers
"Key part of Rangers’ accusatory statement of April 11: “bullying”. That is a very serious allegation about #SPFL governance. I’m wading through this RFC “dossier” trying to find evidence of “bullying” but haven’t found it yet. But give it time."
I'm sure page 200 will provide the smoking gun and it will take some time for all who have the dossier to reach
From the Scottish Sun
A MOTHERWELL director has posted a cryptic take on Rangers' dossier – and it doesn't make good reading for the Light Blues.
But now Andrew Wilson – who rejoined the Well board in March – has a posted a cryptic tweet that many fans assume to target the dossier.
He tweeted: “One day the countrymen noticed that the mountains were in labour.
“Smoke came out of their summit, the earth was quaking at their feet, trees were crashing, and huge rocks were tumbling.
“They felt sure that something horrible was going to happen.
“They all gathered in one place to see what terrible thing this could be.
“They waited and waited, but nothing came.
“At last there was a still more violent earthquake, and a huge gap appeared in the side of the mountains.
“They all fell down upon their knees and waited.
“At last, and at last, a teeny, tiny mouse poked its little head and bristles out of the gap and came running down towards them.
“And ever after they used to say: 'MUCH OUTCRY, LITTLE OUTCOME'. Risible.”
Dossier in full via zoom.
….From the zoomers. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ovzN-0hJgI
I don’t know if this will work (it’s from Rangers Media)
http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/topic/327244-club-statement-resolution-not-deemed-competent/?do=findComment&comment=1065819260
It should be possible to download the Exec Summary from there (19 pages).
Homunculus@12.57
I couldn’t agree more.
I have had a quick skim through the summary. There are more questions posed about the actions of Neil Doncaster and Rod McKenzie, rather than accusations of impropriety.
The questions raised are more about process, about which I share some concerns.
The TRFC take appears to echo the comments made in the discussion I had with Auldhied a couple of days ago, i.e. who determines the SPFL objectives and desired its outcomes? TRFC is complaining that they and others were not party to key information and decisions made by the Board.
I'm wondering if this is a reasonable cinematic depiction of Rangers* bluster & dossier and the likely SPFL/other members response….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
Wasn't one of TRFC's major concerns the claim that their man on the board had somehow found himself out of the loop , either by his own or others' actions , and that dirty deeds were being done dirt cheap , but not with their knowledge or permission ?
Cant argue with this from the twitterverse
I think the most serious allegations from the dossier are about the conduct of Board members Ross McArthur (Dunfermline) and Ken Ferguson (Brechin) who are accused of attempting to get clubs to vote yes by wrongly telling them either that the financial distribution (for Championship clubs) would be different, or that another club (ICT) had voted "yes" so there was no point in them (L2 clubs) voting against the resolution.
However, the dossier will not go anywhere unless more clubs go public in backing up the allegations made.
reasonablechap 7th May 2020 at 11:53
Trying hard not to play the man here but you’re shielding of the ball makes it hard to discern if it’s in play or not . I’m not looking for a list per se , more an indication that anybody else on the forum is of the opinion that all or a majority of 50,000 CFC ST holders are content that Res 12 withers and dies , and to have the opportunity to ask said poster(s) how they reached that conclusion , given that it conflicts with my own extensive local research .
With a quick look over the 'Executive Summary' one thought occurs to me.
As a matter of law, shareholders (in this case the clubs) do not have unfettered rights to see the details of commercially sensitive material.
The general distribution of detailed legal advice in relation to the SPFL's potential liability to SKY is information that should not, without the express approval of the board, have passed beyond the realms of the boardroom.
SPFL board members must be able to distinguish between responsibilities held within their respective clubs and the general legal and specifically, their fiduciary duty, to act in the best interest of the SPFL.
Releasing that legal opinion substantially changes the dynamic (in SKY's favour) when the SPFL seek to achieve the best possible outcome from its discussions with the broadcaster.
For this reason alone, Stewart Robertson's position on the SPFL board (if there had previously been any doubt) is no longer tenable.
There may be a number of charges of 'disrepute' coming up. Attempting to undermine the league's TV deal may be considered to be the most significant.
Imagine the current position was unchanged apart from Rangers being 13 points clear. Nothing else that had happened was any different. Would Rangers have issued a dossier today? If not, why not?
https://twitter.com/cartujakds/status/1258385405252116481?s=21
Interesting if true. Certainly would undermine the impartiality of the National broadcaster in this matter.
If TRFC believed that SPFL information was withheld, and/or decisions taken without Robertson's input or awareness…
then Shirley he should have resigned from the SPFL Board immediately in protest when he did become aware?
Only after Robertson had resigned, should TRFC have lodged any SPFL complaints, IMO. That would seem proper.
Therefore, IMO, Robertson should have resigned AT LEAST 3 weeks ago.
The fact he is still (?) on the SPFL Board suggests that there are ulterior motives for TRFC… i.e. the Ibrox club is not being totally honest with Scottish football.
Again
…to state the bleedin' obvious.
As Easyjambo says, the information now in the public domain re the T'Rangers dossier seems to be more related to the need for questions to be answered as opposed to 'nailed on' accusations.
From my quick look through the 19 pages I don't see anything that is unreasonable in terms of trying to establish what happened and when. There may be perfectly reasonable explanations for some of this. Some of the assertions may be simply wrong because they have been passed on via third parties.
The fact remains that we are once again in the realm of a closed shop where there is no openness or transparency and IMHO certain people pursuing pre-determined agendas to the detriment of other solutions and not thinking through the consequences.
I note the papers include an email from Stewart Robertson to Neil Doncaster on 7 April 2020 raising concerns regard the process and in particular the timetable being allowed for an appropriate degree of scrutiny.
I note that Phil Mac often talks highly of T'Rangers as a 'serious professional'. Why then would SR's obvious concerns, clearly highlighted before the meetings and crucial vote, of a rushed process that was in danger of not being properly scrutinised by stakeholders and non-executive directors be so easily dismissed now?
If the same email had been written in 2012 with regard to the rush to put T'Rangers into the top tier Scottish football many people would have thought it a reasonable stance to take.
I get the impression that somebody is trying to introduce the concept of a petition of concern into SPFL rules and regs .
Redlitchtie 14.24
"I note the papers include an email from Stewart Robertson to Neil Doncaster on 7 April 2020 raising concerns regard the process and in particular the timetable being allowed for an appropriate degree of scrutiny."
(wottpi)
With regards to this, Surely Stewart Robertson was aware that the vote on the Friday was a 'preferred' option and that votes could be cast later. 28 days? So there was no rush if more time was needed. If SR had not read the 'small print' did Doncaster point this out in his reply?
More court business next week, which will go unreported.
LORD DOHERTY – C Munn/T Sadler, Clerk
Tuesday 12th May
Continued Preliminary Hearing
CA9/20 David Whitehouse v Philip Gormley &c – A & W M Urquhart – SGLD Kennedys ScotlandLedingham Chalmers LLP
CA10/20 Paul Clark v Iain Livingston &c – Kennedys Scotland – SGLD A & W M Urquhart Ledingham Chalmers LLP
As I was reading the Material Information not disclosed to Member Clubs section I realised they had missed a point out :
> There is a '5 Way Agreement' in existence that has the New Rangers Club (Sevco Scotland Ltd) and the Old Rangers Club (The Rangers Football Club PLC in Administration) clearly identified as separate parties/signatories. Why was this not disclosed?
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
https://twitter.com/bearshoose/status/1258364091288125440?s=21
Not to be missed.
A lot of logical and lexical (thanks Wiki ) semantics deployed in the dossier . E.g. define payment in the context of "payments to clubs" , also "final placings" rather than finishing positions . Smoke and mirrors with little of substance ,imo , as I can find no proof of wrongdoing – just the usual incompetence .
If this ‘thingy’ goes far enough Redlichtie it could be?
… then Oh my days! (copyright Jeremy Frimpong)
Ex Ludo 7th May 2020 at 16:43
https://twitter.com/bearshoose/status/1258364091288125440?s=21
I'm awfully confused – is that an hour before or after BST?
Is the dossier trying to tell us that TRFC think Doncaster is not very good at his job?
Why has it taken 8 years for them to realise that, but kept their mouths shut for 8 years believing he was doing a good job.
jimbo 7th May 2020 at 16:11
I appreciate the pedantry, as expressed many times before, but we are in similar waters as the Big Tax case.
Yes you can point to the what individual sections of the law/rules say and base your interpretation of events on that, but to paraphrase Dr Poon, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
I don't give a flying you know what who is saying it, I tend to agree the whole situation was rushed through in a manner that didn't allow clubs to fully consider all matters and consequences.
The SPFL board are within their rights to try and manipulate the situation to their own liking/desires/outcome but that doesn't mean they deserve a free ride and a lack of questioning and scrutiny once the mist of battle has cleared.
While I'd happily see the Ibrox club never grace Scottish Football again we have a situation where three of our biggest clubs T'Rangers, Aberdeen and Hearts have all voiced concerns over this episode.
Even if discounting T'Rangers as ever moaning loonies and Hearts as relegation fodder then I still think Aberdeen are a club of size, stature and integrity worth listening to.
In the premiership a lot of the main supporters in the press, so far, are those in the 'lets move on camp' who benefit from potentially not getting dragged in to relegation battles, e.g Hamilton, St Mirren and Ross County.
Motherwell being one point ahead of Aberdeen and in the third Euro slot are clearly happy for their manager to say they want the season called ASAP.
Mid table teams such as Livingston, Hibs, Saint Johnstone and Killie to my knowledge just kept quiet, presumably on the basis that the resolution didn't affect them one way or the other.
As said before the SPFL have put forward what they viewed would get through but never gave a second thought to the casualties in terms of those being relegated and those missing out on the opportunity of promotion.
In all probability we aren't going to see the season being played out but, whole I appreciate the need to try and keep all teams going, the fall out for some disadvantaged teams has been but a mere after thought.
Pretty similar to the way in which the footballing authorities never gave a second thought to the repercussions to others when giving Rangers their Euro licence all those years ago.
Is there any posters on here that think TRFC's long awaited 'Dossier' was worth the wait, or does everyone agree that every doubt expressed as to the likelihood of it containing any 'smoking gun' evidence was right on the money?
I've not read it, and never will, but every critique I've read so far makes it clear that no one has found anything in it that should worry the two named SPFL board members, or anyone else involved (other than Stewart Robertson, TRFC's own man) and that it's nothing more than, at best, a list of questions to be answered, if anyone has the time.
Most notably, the distinct lack of any suggestion of 'bullying', far and away the most serious of the 'leaked' allegations, appears to be missing.
I have to say, though, that in my distrust of the game's governors I am a tad disappointed in it's patheticness*, as a can of worms once opened is very difficult to close, allowing more worms out that may at first have been sought. Anyone else feel the same way?
*Not an actual word, maybe, but then TRFC are not actually the club they claim to be either, so it's alright, see!
I have longed hoped for the opening of the 'can of worms', and I think SEVCO may have just inadvertently provided the tin opener.
It does, after all, contain the 5WA and the wrongly granted European licence.
So, I live in hope.
Allyjambo 7th May 2020 at 18:14
Easyjambo is right at 7th May 2020 at 14:58 with where the most serious allegations lie.
However as I suggested earlier, these types of issues in the dossier are nothing more than 'he said, she said' tittle tattle at present. T'Rangers or anyone else would have to come up with something far more concrete and substantial to have someone nailed for wrong doings.
Have to say, I'm with Wottpi (above at 18.08) on this one. Clearly, TRFC's dossier is full of sh*t rather than evidence, but I believe that the whole episode has raised enough questions – reasonably covered in the dossier summary – to warrant further investigation. If that helps gets the co-conspirators on the 5WA telling tales on each other wider than the current shenanigans, that is in the interests of our forum, surely.
My only concern is that this view would align me with our occasional visitor, of course!! My other concern is that I still genuinely have no idea quite what it is TRFC is so upset at over the vote/decision. As CO said, they've never been bothered about the SPFL's incompetence/bias/corruption (delete as appropriate) when it worked for them before. This time, I can't see what it is they feel so disadvantaged by that has caused them to go mental. They'll still finish second; still receive the best prize money they could have – I just don't get it! Do they care so much about a possible 10 in a row that they're still hoping to void the vote and hope for null and void? I can hardly believe that, but can't see what else they are looking to achieve. Of course it appeals to the 'they're all 'Rangers* haters' loonies, but all this for season ticket sales?!? I don't get it.
Wottpi, you have expanded on the very narrow point in my post, ie that there was an option to all clubs to take their time before voting in order to scrutinise the proposal thoroughly. You have quite rightly pointed out the ramifications of the vote. I don’t disagree with you. We are led to believe they wanted a quick reply to enable the money going to the lower tier clubs A.S.A.P. Would another week have made much difference?
Of course there is a whole load of argument about what the resolution contained. It could have been completely different. That’s another kettle of fish. But it was what it was and did have a feeling of being rushed. Although strictly speaking the clubs could have taken their time.
jimbo 7th May 2020 at 18:45
I think I am right in saying that the only deadline was the 28 day statutory one, basically if the resolution had not received the required 75% (in each voting group) by that time then it failed.
However it could be passed any time before that, by meeting the 75% required.
To basically say "This is urgent, we would appreciate it if anyone who supports this lets us know asap, by Friday if possible" seems reasonable to me.
That's kind of the point, if enough members (shareholders) support a resolution, then just get on with it and do it. It's why the rules are framed the way they are as far as I am aware.
Sevco wanted a couple of things….
(a). A loan = to placings pay-out, interest and admin free of charge,
(b) Placings payout, without calling the division.
They were told, "Get tae"
They went Tonto, rattles departed prams, and its clear Sevco have been briefing shills ever since.
What effect would granting one, or both of those "wants", have on the league?……
That is what Sevco wanted. ………That effect.
It's best to watch a movie from the very beginning.
If it's only un-answered questions and innuendo that are required for a dossier , shirley fans of all clubs could (even via their club board ) could compile an exhaustive list of questions on the governance of Scottish football for the attention of the SPFL . I'll start with
Why wasn't LNS report re examined in the light of court decisions ?
When will Alistair Johnston be deemed fit and proper ?
Will Donald Park be told he is chair of a holding company and not TRFC ?
On you go , lads and lassies . Add your own .
Cluster One
7th May 2020 at 17:41
13 0 Rate This
Is the dossier trying to tell us that TRFC think Doncaster is not very good at his job?
Why has it taken 8 years for them to realise that, but kept their mouths shut for 8 years believing he was doing a good job.
………….
Whether or not Neil Doncaster is good at his job depends entirely on what is in his job description.
HirsutePursuit@19.22
Mr Doncaster’s Key Performance Indicators would make interesting reading too.
"If clubs really want a change then they need to stand up and be counted to do this,if they don't then they are going to be stuck with what they've got"
The words above were spoken on tonight's SSB by Old Smiler Robertson himself. Here's my question:what does he mean by "this ", as in "do this".
Do what exactly?
I'm starting to think Rangers mission is to disband the SPFL . Why do I think that? The Govan club are talking about the 10 million TV money. Is that not the same cash they were telling the SPFL to loan everybody and also grant the entitlement to the borrowers on repayment?
Conspiracy theory time. Imagine the league had doled out the cash then found itself having to recoup it to pay the TV stations for sums outstanding.If clubs refused to pay back the money then the league itself goes bankrupt not the clubs. This leaves an administration vacuum, one that an insolvent club could use to "change holding companies".
Probably nowhere near the mark but seriously haven't a clue what Rangers are actually playing at.
Having read through the "dossier" at a bit more length, I don't believe that TRFC will face a disrepute charge.
My reason for saying that is that there are just too many questions and allegations that remain unanswered, that even the SPFL Board would want put in front of a Judicial Panel (unless completely hand picked and with the outcome pre-determined ……… not that the SPFL would consider doing that anyway
)
I can't find any evidence of illegality, but there is enough in there that does point to the conduct of ND, RMcK and other Board members falling below what you would expect of officials purportedly acting in the shared interest of all member clubs.
It is a concern, to me, that some clubs clearly believe that this type of conduct is the norm for the SPFL Board. Why they have allowed it to continue is all the more surprising.
I suspect that there is barely even a remote chance of the request for an independent investigation being carried, as too many clubs have had their self interest served by the SPFL's resolution.
If I was on the Board of any of the disaffected clubs, then I would be proposing motions of no confidence in each of the individual members of the Board. Even though such an action might not achieve the desired results, at least the discussions would be open to all member clubs to hear what is alleged and force the individuals to defend their actions.
I’m torn to be honest.
if sufficient members support an investigation then so be it. That’s what rules, and subscription payments, are for.
If an investigation is called just to pacify 1 whiney member then it seems an expensive way to go about it.
And if either an investigation or, bizarrely, the lack of one is used to further reinforce the staunch barricades to sell a few extra season tickets then the SPFL have to man up, realise, acknowledge and do something about the fact they’re being played.
And I don’t even want to think about a situation where an investigation with a gravity defying predetermined outcome is carried out. I’m pretty sick of them to be honest.
misterlightbulbjoke 7th May 2020 at 20:14
Of the two Scottish governing bodies, Sevco would rather the SFA held sway in the power stakes. Lot o' pals there.
easyJambo 7th May 2020 at 20:22
How are the SPFL board appointed, they must have an employer, or be voted on by the members. They cannot select / employ themselves and have a job for life with no-one to answer to.
Long story short, if there is so much evidence of incompetence why not just sack them.
easyJambo 7th May 2020 at 20:22
I beg to differ re:the disrepute charge EJ. Unanswered questions/allegations are just that. As I understand it the disrepute charge is levied as an exemplar not to cow dissent but to encourage a reasoned and responsible approach to accountability. Throwing mud here there and everywhere in the hope that some of it might stick doesn't stand as responsible approach.TRFC have questioned the probity and indeed honesty of ND in particular If I was to be vilified and traduced in such a public manner then I would certainly be seeking redress.Disrepute charges be hanged..it's a far worse personal calumny that TRFC have to answer for.In spite of the foregoing I carry no torch for ND but at the very least produce something tangible to attack him with eg 5 way agreement. .As you say "I can't find any evidence of illegality" ,in this regard the Dossier is not damp,it's wringing wet.
Homunculus 7th May 2020 at 20:48
easyJambo 7th May 2020 at 20:22
How are the SPFL board appointed, they must have an employer, or be voted on by the members. They cannot select / employ themselves and have a job for life with no-one to answer to.
Long story short, if there is so much evidence of incompetence why not just sack them.
===================================
The “club” directors (3 x Prem, 2 x Champ and 1 x L1 or L2) are elected by the member clubs. They also have to be re-elected at every AGM should they wish to stand again.
I don’t know how many of the current club directors will be putting themselves forward for re-election at the next AGM (in June?).
easyJambo 7th May 2020 at 21:02
I was more thinking of the people like Neil Doncaster, how does he get his position and who does he answer to.
Homunculus 7th May 2020 at 21:07
easyJambo 7th May 2020 at 21:02
I was more thinking of the people like Neil Doncaster, how does he get his position and who does he answer to.
==============================
The Chief Exec, Chairman and the non-Exec Directors are all appointed (and can be removed) by the Board.
An Appointments Committee will undertake the recruitment process and make a recommendation to the Board.
It's fairly standard stuff.
Homunculus 7th May 2020 at 21:07
‘Neil Doncaster, how does he get his position and who does he answer to’
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Doncaster’s appointment was announced 7 July 2009
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/8139249.stm
“…….(Lex) Gold, Hibernian chairman Rod Petrie and Rangers chief executive Martin Bain formed the SPL sub-committee that carried out the recruitment process over the past six months.
The SPL chairman said: “We have been engaged in a detailed recruitment process for some time now. The role attracted international interest.
“Neil was the unanimous choice of those involved in the process. He has had excellent experience in club football with Norwich City and with his involvement with the FA and the Football League.
“That experience will hold him in good stead to lead the SPL team and deal with the challenges that lie ahead.”
And as sitting CEO Doncaster remained in post when the SFL was absorbed to create the SPFL.
easyJambo 7th May 2020 at 21:31
==============================
Thanks ej.
So presumably if the board of the SPFL decided that if he was incompetent, corrupt or any of the things he seems to have been accused of they could also terminate his appointment.
It will be interesting to see if, as a matter separate from the resolution (which is the primary purpose of the dossier) being voted on by the members, the SPFL board also consider his position.
Surely they must do that, as the material has now been put to them by a member. Albeit for a different purpose.
This may not be over for Mr Doncaster, even if the resolution fails.
My reading of the Rangers* dossier is that they have pulled as much mud together as they could and thrown it at the SPFL wall to see how much will stick.
The SPFL as we all know is a flawed organisation with people I wouldn’t trust to run a bath. The membership appears to be riven with vested interests.
I have some Board-level experience of parties making accusations against senior company personnel, use of internal auditors for an ‘independent’ investigation and then having to commission a completely independent investigation.
None of the complainer’s claims were found to hold water except for one small administrative issue but I believe that still did not satisfy the person concerned.
Sound familiar?
There was considerable cost incurred and high levels of stress for everyone involved. Nobody would ever want to go through that again.
In today’s circumstances and bearing in mind the lack of any ‘smoking gun’ I agree with EJ that this is probably not going to end up as a vote in favour of the Rangers* motion for an independent investigation.
I think too that the SPFL will not have any appetite for the armageddon that would occur should they seek to sanction Rangers* in any way for their behaviour and claims.
If I actually understood what Rangers* wanted to get out of this situation I’d be better able to suggest how it may turn out. Alas, rationality and perspective seem to be in short supply down Ibrokes way.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
TRFC are going down. It's only a matter of time. Mibees they need someone at the SPFL a bit more malleable than Doncaster for an after the event reincarnation.
easyJambo 7th May 2020 at 20:22
Having read through the “dossier” at a bit more length, I don’t believe that TRFC will face a disrepute charge.
……….
EX-SPL chief Roger Mitchell says Rangers should be deducted points next season if they don’t apologise.
And he insisted he would demand £250,000 in recompense if he was in charge of the SPFL.
The Celtic-daft businessman was asked what he would do if he was in Neil Doncaster’s shoes.
He answered: “Let me answer as a pro rather than a fan.
“If/when this doesn’t land a blow on me I start talking about monetary recompense.
“The cost of Deloitte, lawyers, time and resources. All billed to Rangers.
“Plus the damages for disrepute to the SPFL and Neil and [Murdoch MacLennan]. £250k.
“Then I go to Rangers and tell them they are formal probation.
“If they don’t behave now it’s a point deduction next season.
“’Behave’ means a full apology and public agreement on ending the season. Praise for the SPFL.
“If not, points off. They are lucky Neil is nicer than me.”
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5570032/rangers-dossier-live-evidence-spfl-revealed/
……
I don’t think he agrees with you ej
I have not read the dossier yet but heard Stewart Robertson on Clyde say it was about achieving better governance of the game in Scotland.
Join the bloody queue mate, join the queue, but lets not base it on questions.
Lets base it on knowns as set out in https://www.res12.uk or the stalled SFA JPDT into the UEFA licence process in 2011 or the Terms of Reference for the LNS Commission ironically skewed by the same action TRFC accuse SPFL of i.e withholding key information.
A wee reminder here of that. https://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/was-lord-nimmo-smith-duped/
Finally SFM covered the glaring governance deficiency that does need address at
https://www.sfm.scot/jpp-perverting-justice/ and it is independent oversight of those deciding which direction they want any enquiry to go. How is it done? Who decides? is it minuted and published?
If Robertson is to be believed that its about improving governance he should have no objection to using actual evidence that supports TRFC's case for it.
bullish Stewart Robertson insists Rangers DIDN’T accuse SPFL staff of ‘bullying and coercion’
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5572594/robertson-rangers-spfl-bullying/
……..
The guy must not read his clubs own web page.
…….
STEWART ROBERTSON has hit back at the SPFL and insisted Rangers NEVER accused league chiefs of bullying and corruption.
Ibrox bosses finally put their long-awaited dossier to the other 41 clubs this morning – with SunSport first to reveal the key details.
But their document has been angrily dismissed by league bosses, who claim that it “failed to identify a single shred of evidence” of coercion and bullying mentioned by Gers previously.
In an April 10 statement, Rangers said: “Over the last 36 hours, we have received numerous reports from fellow Scottish clubs relating to attempts to coerce and bully them into voting for the SPFL’s own resolution.
“We are proud that many fellow clubs will stand strong and not be swayed.”
However, managing director Robertson was keen to set the record straight by saying the Light Blues did NOT accuse SPFL staff of bullying.
“At no point did we talk about corruption as mentioned in their statement or bullying and coercion by SPFL staff.
…………….
I don’t know were the corruption part came into things but the rangers own statements even today state we will not be Bullied.
And their own statement from April 11 said Rangers will not be bullied into silence.
Stewart Robertson a whistle blower you say …
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-md-stewart-robertson-ducks-21993218
Rangers MD Stewart Robertson ducks out of SPFL meeting as whistle-blower faces axe over classified leak
Robertson staggered his colleagues on the league’s board by going public with an avalanche of commercially sensitive information.
Rangers managing director Stewart Robertson has claimed the SPFL’s governance was the worst he’s ever known as his position on the league board hung in the balance.
The Ibrox MD turned whistle-blower to leak classified material straight from the Hampden boardroom into the club’s 200-page dossier that accuses the SPFL of a string of damaging wrong-doings.
Robertson ducked out of a league board meeting scheduled for Thursday afternoon, hours after Rangers’ long-awaited report landed.
One league source claimed last night: “The feeling is Stewart has effectively resigned himself from the board. It could be argued that the information he has handed over is a breach of company law. What is absolutely clear, however, is that his place on the board is untenable.”
Robertson later conducted a series of interviews slamming the league’s corporate governance.
The 200-page document was finally handed over to the other 41 clubs in Scotland yesterday morning ahead of next week’s extraordinary general meeting, when Rangers will hope to force through a wide ranging, QC led probe into the conduct of chief executive Neil Doncaster and legal adviser Rod McKenzie.
And Robertson has staggered his colleagues on the league’s board by going public with an avalanche of commercially sensitive information.
But before he took part in interviews, his club made a litany of allegations. Rangers claim:
* SPFL bosses failed to reveal a £10 million liability to Sky Sports and BT Sports for calling the season early.
* Doncaster had spoken of handing league sponsorship rights to Sky, worth £1.5 million a year, to offset the liability – without informing SPFL clubs.
* The SPFL and SFA wrote to UEFA on April 4 claiming the ‘vast majority’ of SPFL clubs wanted to end the season – six days before the resolution vote was even held and without consultation with clubs.
* Doncaster failed to report allegations of bullying made to him by Inverness and Dundee against Dunfermline and Alloa to the SPFL board.
* The SPFL know reconstruction talks are a sham as they require contract renegotiations with broadcasters – but didn’t tell the clubs.
Robertson is particularly scathing about the SPFL’s corporate governance and revealed 15 sets of board minutes went unapproved as recently as April 26.
Robertson said: “There’s no point moaning about things behind the scenes if you’ve got the opportunity to do something about it and that’s where we are now.
“Personally, I’ve had five stints, going back to 2003, on the board of the SPL and SPFL and I’ve never known the governance to be as bad as it is now.
“If clubs really want to make a change then they need to stand up and be counted to do this. If they don’t then they are going to be stuck with what they have got.”
The Rangers dossier, supported by Hearts and Stranraer, will prompt an independent investigation if 75 per cent of member clubs decide the SPFL have a case to answer at an egm on Tuesday.
That’s unlikely to happen, but Robertson revealed fellow SPFL clubs have been in contact to offer support.
He added: “There have been a few. All the calls I’ve had have been positive. I expect over the next two to three days we’ll get a better feel for how that is sitting.”
Rangers have called for the suspension of Doncaster and lawyer Rod McKenzie.
Robertson said: “I had some real challenges with the way some really material information was omitted from the briefing paper which clubs were given. Incidentally, it wasn’t approved by the board before it was sent out.
“There could be potential liabilities of up to £10m in relation to sponsorship and broadcasting contracts. That’s a real threat to some clubs.”
Robertson’s place on the board will be examined by the SPFL after next week’s EGM.
A source said last night: “Various board members planned to grill Stewart about his position at yesterday’s board meeting but, at the last minute, he decided not to take part in the conference call. Perhaps it was a wise move.”
With the EGM vote scheduled for Tuesday it’s unlikely any move will be made in the interim to force Robertson off the board.
Our source added: “The priority now will be to see how the clubs vote at the EGM. But, after that, it’s impossible to see how Stewart can possibly remain as part of a board which he believes, at the very best, to be guilty of incompetence.”
Shortly after Rangers had released their dossier, the SPFL issued a stern rebuttal of the allegations.
A spokesperson said: “It is now a month since Rangers accused the SPFL of bullying and corruption relating to the Dundee FC return.
“At last, Rangers have issued their ‘dossier’ and we will now take time to review it, before responding to all 42 clubs.
“Since Rangers publicly demanded the suspension of the SPFL’s chief executive and legal counsel, everyone in Scottish football has waited patiently for them to present their case.
“However, an initial examination of their ‘dossier’ has failed to identify a single shred of evidence to support Rangers’ vociferous claims of corruption, bullying and coercion by SPFL staff.
“If Rangers have any good reason for Neil Doncaster and Rod McKenzie to be suspended, we have yet to see it.”
Looks like Robertson should 'hurry up' and do the decent thing – and resign from the SPFL Board…
before he gets punted!
IF…….If clubs vote FOR an independent inquiry, will they be returning the monies they voted to receive?
StevieBC 8th May 2020 at 00:22
'.Looks like Robertson should 'hurry up' and do the decent thing –'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
RFC of 1872 under SDM had absolutely no understanding of what 'decency' means
TRFC have shared that lack of understanding since its creation in 2012.
SDM's 'Rangers' lied prodigiously for years and got away, unpunished, with their lies.
The new 'Rangers' are in themselves a living lie, claiming to be what they are not.
From SDM right through to Robertson we have had nothing but lies and deceit, with their lies and deceit handily supported by our football authorities and the running dog jackals of the SMSM.
Honest to God!
Let's hope the internecine fighting kills off all the baddies.
Auldheid 7th May 2020 at 22:40
======================
I asked yesterday if the only difference this very day was that Rangers were 13 points clear would they have still felt motivated to issue a dossier? I think we all know the answer. Also, the question will forever remain why some members of the media are getting so animated about this when they have ignored far greater scandals supported by facts. Facts that have been made available to them which they chose to either ignore or ridicule.
It's not about governance at all in my view, it's about Rangers trying to manipulate future governance of the game to suit them. It's about Rangers casting enough smears and doubt without proof to try and force that change anyway.
We can't have an 'Independent' Inquiry in Scotland. It's simply not possible. In fact, history shows you that the UK as a whole have so called Independent Inquiries that are proven thirty years later to be a gerrymandered sham. Scottish Football has had a gerrymandered sham of its own in the past decade. The SFA appear to be sitting on another because they are backed into a corner. Both of those Inquiries were into events that hugely benefited 'Rangers'. I don't think I need to say any more.
upthehoops 8th May 2020 at 07:12
…
It's not about governance at all in my view, it's about Rangers trying to manipulate future governance of the game to suit them. It's about Rangers casting enough smears and doubt without proof to try and force that change anyway.
=======
You could very well be spot on there, uth.
This could explain TRFC's seemingly irrational behaviour – and MD Robertson's continued, fast talking gibberish.
Mibbees it is as simple as: Doncaster – and McKenzie / McLellan ? – are not being malleable enough for TRFC's purposes…
and which could cause problems for the Blue Room if there was an insolvency event at Ibrox?
The never-ending rage spewing from Ibrox across the Scottish game is way beyond tedious now.
If the SPFL was ever going to surprise the paying punters with a positive, meaningful action – for the benefit of the game – now would be a good time.
(I know.
)
StevieBC 8th May 2020 at 08:28
===========
My view is they will not get the required votes they want. My view is also that 'Operation Asterisk' will then come into play. They already have their media placemen on the case. As I said, if they were 13 clear would there be a dossier? If not, why not? A genuine concern about governance should be followed through no matter what.
In my view they are simply using these unforseen and tragic events to try and force through a decision which is borne out of pure spite.
Quite simply "the rangers" dont give a flying f**k about any other club or Sccottish football . They aint the big fish anymore and they cant handle it . They know they are going back to square one as Mk II Rangers are about to go down the same route as the original Rangers . Like a big bully always does if they cant have their own way , they will try and cause as much damage on their way down.
If Rangers were 13 points clear my view is we would still have some kind of dossier but it would come from Celtic. It is also my view that social media would be overwhelmed to breaking point with opinions that the authorities were manipulating the current uncertainty in trying to stop the league and hand it to Rangers.
However, hypothetical situations are pointless and prove absolutely nothing. Rangers have made a fool of themselves and hopefully a sustained period of silence will emerge from Ibrox but I hae ma doots about that.
incredibleadamspark 8th May 2020 at 10:38
While Celtic may well have done their level best to ensure TRFC were not handed the league title I very much doubt they'd have come up with the amateurish 'dossier' type 'evidence' that TRFC have produced. For one thing, they wouldn't have had to try too hard to come up with some sort of leverage, such as Resolution12, or even threaten, privately, to raise the good old secret 5 Way Agreement.
I'm pretty certain that Celtic could, if they so wished, end the Great Lie and finish off, not only TRFC, but also all those who aided and abetted them while involved in the game's governance in 2012 and for some time before and after. They could also just threaten to raise Financial Fair Play with UEFA showing how TRFC signed players they couldn't afford (even after they'd posted such disastrous, touch and go UEFA compliant, Accounts) that enabled them to go so far in the UEFA Cup.
It certainly appears that Celtic have little to fear from TRFC's vindictiveness in terms of honesty and rule breaking, while the opposite is true the other way round, which is why they, TRFC, have had to go after their erstwhile friends at Hampden.
With the outbreak of Rangersitis hopefully reaching its peak it's maybe worthwhile looking back at what was said at the time of a previous epidemic!
https://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/rangers-itis-is-it-catching-a-guest-post-by-bill/
Hopefully this time a cure will be found!
Allyjambo, all that’s a possible for sure but I just feel that for some fans it doesn’t matter if you wear the green and grey hoops or an orange away top you will fit your views around certain events in Scottish football to suit predetermined opinions/conspiracies.
Scottish football is facing an uncertain future, as is our society, and the way Rangers have went about things has been an absolute embarrassment. I just can not see what they are hoping to achieve. Stay safe.
Whilst it's true that CFC have their 'ace in the hole' with regard to (especially historical) malfeasance by Oldco, Sevco and SPFL/SFA, I feel it is more important than ever that they 'keep their powder dry' (which, to me, they have done admirably to date), and let this unsavoury dispute continue.
There will be plenty of opportunity for input as the warring factions continue this pitched battle which could irrevocably damage our game (our world wide reputation will be in tatters) as they tear themselves apart.
Slightly off topic, what I also see 'coming down the tracks' is another statement from the current Govan incarnation about the validity of my club's inevitable (and in any sensible person's eye – deserved?) title triumph. These days especially, is a lot of 'bad blood' and ill will emanating from them – as they desperately seek to sell season books and survive (I think their demise is inevitable though – proven, to me, by increasingly desperate, deflective utterances. They also seem determined to take others down with them).
A final thought – would Sevco accept an advance if Celtic were to defer payment due from SPFL in order to bail them out? ( Ever so slightly tongue in cheek!).
I think it's fairly obvious what they are hoping to achieve. If a 3rd version is on the cards then this is all leverage in a " you owe us " for what you brought about and if there is no future club* then it's just deflecting the blame for their imminent demise. The tantrums and finger pointing seemed to increase around the time they "should have " submitted the interims for scrutiny to secure a euro licence. Without the prospect of income from either the CL or Europa then there is no way to paint any hope for them . Doncaster and Co may have been willing to bend the rules to favour them in the past but they are not prepared to sacrifice themselves for their cause when the odds of success are so slim. Both King and Traynor were smart enough to depart before the inevitable hit the fan , their silence at the moment speaks volumes.
incredibleadamspark
===========
It was my post you were replying to so I will give you the courtesy of a response. Whether or not Celtic would have had a 'dossier' we will never know. If they did, I would hope it would be stronger than the shambolic offering from Ibrox yesterday. Celtic have enough in their possession to bring several people down, in particular over the 2011 Euro licence. Why they don't is beyond me and others. As some have speculated, they might not want the fans to know just how much they knew at the time. However, that should not have stopped the media going after it. Yet people like Tom English who chose to mock it have tied their flag firmly to the mast of innuendo and smears coming from Ibrox. It is truly bizarre.
incredibleadamspark 8th May 2020 at 11:49 Allyjambo, all that’s a possible for sure but I just feel that for some fans it doesn’t matter if you wear the green and grey hoops or an orange away top you will fit your views around certain events in Scottish football to suit predetermined opinions/conspiracies. Scottish football is facing an uncertain future, as is our society, and the way Rangers have went about things has been an absolute embarrassment. I just can not see what they are hoping to achieve. Stay safe.
___________________
I agree that many/most supporters of all clubs (even ones who conflate grey with white) form their opinions around whatever suits their argument, it is more or less the same in every aspect of life, but as you say, TRFC's vindictive attempt at achieving goodness knows what is an absolute embarrassment, especially to thinking bears; and Celtic, whether through integrity or just having smarter people at the top, are extremely unlikely to ever make such a pig's ear of trying to 'encourage' others to facilitate their required outcome.
Hope you stay safe, too.
The latest SPFL response (5 pages)
eJ, I thought that first page from the SPFL was going to end with something like;
“…and so Stewart Robertson is immediately suspended from the SPFL Board, pending an investigation into his conduct around this dispute…”
There can’t be any trust whatsoever between Robertson and other Board members and clubs.
And that first page was, IMO, very deliberately personalised against Robertson.
The SPFL – and Doncaster himself – could have earned some brownie points with the supporters if they had taken action.
Opportunity missed, again?
Suddenly Mr Robertson seems to have ever more to say about TRFC's dissatisfaction with the world and its aunt. Amongst his words there are, I believe, some indicators as to what it has always been about. They need money from wherever they can get it but certainly will not be able to pay any of it back, if broadcaster clawbacks had to ensue, due to the current situation in the country.
It seems to me to always have been about the Ibrox club's desperate need of any kind of cash recently and, so desperate are they, that they do not wish any income source threatened by decisions which did not suit its current agenda/needs. Follow, follow the lack of money spawning outrage.
The Ibrox entity has absolutely no altruism within its being and its posturing as the guardian angel of the game in Scotland is laughable. TRFC is not, any longer (if it ever were) the most important club in the country. It needs to remember what favours it has received from the same folk now being sorely criticised for not bending the knee in homage to a shower of deluded charlatans. The rest of football has more important things to be doing at this time, other than pandering to TRFC panic and paranoia.
I do hope the required number of clubs will rally to point Indiana's pistol at the Ibrox sword, as so wittily highlighted by an earlier post.
Condolences to all who have lost relatives recently.
(Don't post very much these days, as mainly based in Bad Ischl, Austria via my second EU passport. Just couldn't take much more of the people running the UK and Brexit Britain, particularly in England, after the last General Election.)
Best wishes to all. Stay safe and well.
easyJambo 8th May 2020 at 12:34
Ooooft ! *rse on a plate .
StevieBC 8th May 2020 at 12:54
I think your point was addressed in page 2 of the SPFL letter, Stevie, (sorry, can't copy and paste it) in the paragraph that begins, 'Several of us have also been asked…' where it ends by saying that they can't comment until after the EGM, which I think would naturally be the case.
Can I say that the SPFL board do not seem to have missed TRFC, and in particular Stewart Robertson, and hit the wall. It is also clear from the paragraph I refer to that some of the clubs, at least, share our view that TRFC's actions are/were 'bringing the game into disrepute'. There appears to be genuine anger within the ranks of the SPFL, though it looks like Robertson has been set up to be the sacrificial lamb (or lump under the carpet) and may be used to deflect the full repercussions from the club he was acting on behalf of.
AJ, thanks I missed that;
“…but we will return to this important issue in due course…”
Still think there are more than sufficient grounds for his immediate suspension though.
However, the SPFL certainly doesn’t seem to be rolling over this time for Ibrox – which is refreshing.
I have always found Stewart Robertson's position a mystery.
As others have said he seems to be viewed as a safe pair of hands and measured in his actions. Yet we now have the impression of a screaming banshee on the loose.
I have often said as soon as you get to the top of the marble stair case you get injected with some WATP juice that takes over all sensible thinking.
The fact remains, however, that I am guessing many of us have sat in boardrooms and meetings year on year (filled with folks who would describe themselves as 'professional people' with 'experience') being somewhat amazed at the goings on, decision making and incompetence but kept our mouths shut anyway for various reasons.
At some point, some people do break and say enough is enough.
Folk like Budge have come into the game with some having the hope of maybe seeing a change but perhaps the whole running of the SFA and SPFL is so set in stone its hard for anyone to make an impact in terms of real change.
Why Robertson, why this argument and why now? Who knows, but we can all have a guess.
Either way he is probably looking at an exit door somewhere and my guess is he will probably be glad of it closing behind him.
If Third Rangers is the game, weakening the competition to which they would "return", makes perfect sense…..From a morally corrupt despicable point of view. ……..All for the good of the game old chap.
Maybe some folk think the new club has/should have the same clout as the old club , and are upset that it doesn't . And Mr Robertson seems angered that the rules didn't allow TRFC/RIFC's preferred outcome . There's still nobody with the cojones to tell Mr Park that he is nothing to do with the football club , he is merely the chairman of the holding company .
StevieBC 8th May 2020 at 13:38
AJ, thanks I missed that;
“…but we will return to this important issue in due course…”
Still think there are more than sufficient grounds for his immediate suspension though.
However, the SPFL certainly doesn’t seem to be rolling over this time for Ibrox – which is refreshing.
They don’t need to roll over because they know TRFC will be gone soon. This time there is no obvious route back for them given the level of “football debts” they have accumulated in winning the Petrofac Cup. But fair play to the SPFL for standing up to them and shame on Hearts and Stranraer for hitching their relegation wagons to this toxicity.
TRFC have obviously had a conversation with Doncaster/MacKenzie about their predicament and impending insolvency event and they have been less than helpful because they have seen this self induced demise before.
Mibbes during discussions the 5 Way agreement has come back to haunt them with a 25 point deduction for insolvency because of the continuation charade. If that happened they would drop to 5th place and receive significantly less prize money as well as no Euro footie or money next season (if there is one).
Even if they could negotiate Admin and exit by CVA (which I believe they won’t) they would have to have trimmed their cloth and would be a shadow of the Institution they imagined they were but they would still owe football debts of £28m.
Even a Sevco2 would have to carry that debt and after assessing their destructive behaviour would the other 41 clubs want them back?
Scottish football is in crisis and will undergo substantial restructuring and because of Covid-19 everything is up for grabs (including governance reforms, effective FFP etc). But its clear there is no value to be derived from the cheating angry blue pound.
The appendices from the TRFC dossier can be downloaded from the "Follow Follow" facebook page (you can find them in the section "Recent Group files")
https://www.facebook.com/groups/351858699226/
wottpi 8th May 2020 at 13:48
I have to say I am starting to see Stewart Robertson in a different light. I genuinely thought he came across as a reasonable person. Things like everyone anyone, whilst unlikely to succeed with a lot of the support, was at least going in the right direction, or so it seemed.
His latest performance has been enlightening and if he has indeed breached the confidentiality of company on whose board he sat then I hope it is reported to the relevant authorities. At the very least it calls into question whether his is fit and proper to hold the position of director of a limited company.
Maybe the SFA should consider his position within Scottish football.
However I doubt if any action will be taken against him, TRFC, Park or RIFC. No matter how the vote goes.
The letter to UEFA is strange and poorly explained by the SPFL response today. Vast majority want to call it early? Rubbish. I would be astounded if any premiership club and all fans didn’t want to finish on the park. Even now, never mind on April the 4th. As a Celtic supporter I will be gutted if we don’t get the chance to win 9 in a row and a 4th treble in a row on the pitch. We’re in football dreamland at the moment and our players absolutely deserve to finish things off.
Homunculus 8th May 2020 at 16:47
However I doubt if any action will be taken against him, TRFC, Park or RIFC. No matter how the vote goes.
……………….
Some action will have to be taken, otherwise it opens a door for anyone to start a bit of mud slinging.
Like the last time an ibrox club had action taken against them the punishment will not fit the crime, when rules were in place to kick them out the game a small fine was imposed. A look down a list of punishments now, the one at the very bottom will be it. That is if they are around long enough to recieve it.
Homunculus, you are not the first person to express that initial opinion of Stewart Robertson. I think he may be the best of a bad lot if I’m being kind. He did sit on the same board with a known criminal at the helm. Not sure I’d be too comfortable with that! And to tolerate the likes of Traynor being the ‘mouthpiece’ for the club, Really? Now a member of the DUP as a spokesman, why on earth? Imagine if Celtic brought over a member of Sinn Fein! Yet Robertson was party to that controversial decision.
The club have never been close to break even during his tenure.
Not his fault? Doing as he was told? That would be a puppet.
No. Not for me.
I need to edit my own post. Apologies.
TRFC and its fans will very much want to stop now. The noise from them to finish the season on the pitch is bluster. They will love it if we don’t play another game.
Shock horror gasp ……… I didn’t see that coming. Aye right!
@Kheredine@Kheredine2018
One chairman outwith the top flight fuming at a call he’s just had; sounds like today’s Premiership meeting has ruled out 14-14-16, 14-14-14 or any kind of any league reconstruction. Looks like next season, whenever it starts, will be 12-10-10-10 as per with @JamTarts relegated
@Kheredine@Kheredine2018
Breaking : @spfl league reconstruction scrapped. Highland league confirms the “dissolution of league reconstruction working group”, calling that news “disappointing and frustrating in equal measure “
from @AberdeenFC chair @CormackDavie on @spfl league reconstruction talks collapsing: “whilst the (Premiership) sympathises with the..situation relegated teams are faced with, it concluded this isn’t the right time to consider immediate reconstruction in the midst of a crisis”
David Low tweeted "Happy to confirm the Rangers led EGM resolution has already failed. Stewart Robertson’s inept and disingenuous performance yesterday formally sealed its fate. No one has any respect for this type of behaviour from a member club. No respect."
I assume David has been able to establish already the number of clubs who will vote against the Resolution.
However, in my view it has far from failed in the only way it was ever intended to actually succeed. Smears and innuendo have cast doubt on the integrity of at least three men with no proof given. The Head of the SPFL allegedly 'can't stand' Rangers, and the national broadcaster seems happy to constantly throw licence fee payers money towards backing their case. These continued smears are going to make it difficult for Doncaster and MacLennan to continue in post in my view.
upthehoops 8th May 2020 at 18:47
It will have achieved what it sought to achieve when season ticket numbers are at a reasonable level.
As much as I dislike Doncaster, it would actually be good form, IMO, if other clubs now step forward to make supportive noises in the SMSM for him, McLennan and McKenzie.
(At the inevitable risk of being portrayed as 'Lawwell supporters: so what?)
And oh, to be a fly on the wall in the Blue Room right now?!
I have visions of an Ibrox version of that 'Hitler in the bunker' video – except everyone in the room is throwing a fit!
Has TRFC scored the most spectacular own goal in Scottish football history?
Has the club blown all its potential, Hampden life lines in one go – with this stoopid, showboating, 'Secret Dossier' move?
It's all getting a bit tasty…
Homunculus 8th May 2020 at 19:04
It will have achieved what it sought to achieve when season ticket numbers are at a reasonable level.
==================
That will be a big part of the plan for sure.
upthehoops 8th May 2020 at 18:47
David Low tweeted "Happy to confirm the Rangers led EGM resolution has already failed.
==============
Confirm is a strong word UTH, but coming from DL I'm happy to accept that as quality inside info. I was listening to Alex EBT Rae on the tranny there, and he reckons even if voted down, Sevco will take the SPFL to court……I think he might be half right, but has confused who will be taking who to court.
Serious unsubstantiated allegations have been made, of which a dossier of evidence was to provide support. It hasn't.
Corrupt official 8th May 2020 at 20:19
———————–
Neil Doncaster is a lawyer, as of course is Rod McKenzie. They have had their characters smeared with no evidence provided to back it up. Who knows where this will end up.
Corrupt official
Peter Martin (on PLZ Soccer Football Show last evening) was convinced that Sevco would take this to court if their Resolution fails – totally ignoring Hugh McDonald's point about the potential cost to them by going down this avenue.
Then I thought of the shafted face painter, together with the fact that in Govania, they don't seem to bother with fines, court costs etc.
The SPFL, on the other hand, would have their fees paid for them by clubs (including, ironically, SEVCO?)
As I've commented previously, I believe the SPFL now has the upper hand here – reminding me of the old saying from Murphy's Laws…
"Never play leapfrog with a unicorn"
The Lowland League has it's say about the collapse of the Reconstruction talks
Official Statement: SPFL Reconstruction
08/05/2020 By Media Team
We were today notified by the heads of the SPFL reconstruction group that talks regarding this were at an end.
This followed a meeting of SPFL Premiership clubs, where it became clear that there was “no appetite for a restructuring of the pyramid at this time”.
The SLFL are disappointed in the extreme that Scottish football has failed to grasp a golden opportunity to enhance and develop the Pyramid system. We view this as extremely damaging to the integrity of the competition and that football supporters across the country have been hugely let down.
We understand that these are uncertain times for everyone, however it would seem that the overall welfare of the game has been cast aside in favour of short term gain.
The league are particularly disappointed that our champion club, Kelty Hearts, have been denied an opportunity to progress from the Lowland League.
We will continue to do what is right for our clubs, and explore all available avenues to protect the interests of our members.
——————————————
A succinct comment from Brora Rangers chairman William Powrie:
'I would have thought league reconstruction would be part of the solution and not part of the problem.'
upthehoops 8th May 2020 at 20:23
Corrupt official 8th May 2020 at 20:19
———————–
Neil Doncaster is a lawyer, as of course is Rod McKenzie. They have had their characters smeared with no evidence provided to back it up. Who knows where this will end up.
===============================
I know it’s not possible at this stage, but what a laugh it would be if those two made moves to ring fence funds at Rangers* in anticipation of damages! 🙂
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
UTH, Bec, Red,
As you say UTH, A lawyer. Possibly in the habit of recording his calls. I don't think the SPFL are in the mood for egg-shell walking with Sevco anymore…
If Sevco know they are for the broth pot I don't suppose they have anything more to lose…..But if the SPFL also know they are for the broth-pot….Neither have they.!
Suddenly every other club takes on more importance. (I don't mean that disparagingly).
The maths are completely different from 2012. Club numbers are significantly more important than fan numbers this time…
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5574788/spfl-rangers-park-threat-defamatory-doncaster/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1588941182
Has St Johnstone pre-empted the SPFL's Board decision to end the season?
https://twitter.com/StJohnstone/status/1258786419008569344
If T'Rangers suffer the same fate as the previous version then who will be Club 12. Perhaps that's what will save Hearts and no reconstruction is therefore necessary.
EJ.
Dont be disheartened about reconstruction. I've been saying since day dot recon talks are futile without knowing how many building blocks will be available.
There may be a Club 13, 14, and 15 to add to Club 12 in the provisional fixture lists. If and when a re-start nears.
I was listening to David Low on a pod last night, and he painted a worst case picture of a top league of 5 or 6, with the numbers made up by invitation.
The talks may be abandoned, but I have always thought reconstruction WILL be necessary. It will just have to wait until nearer a start date, and be cobbled together from the basket of assets the SPFL are left with. ….In that respect Hearts are in the same boat as every other club. Just hang in there buddy. I don't think there is anybody out there who doesn't want the Jambos involved. Relegation may well be a non-issue.
Corrupt official 8th May 2020 at 21:59
EJ.
Dont be disheartened about reconstruction. I’ve been saying since day dot recon talks are futile without knowing how many building blocks will be available.
================================
I’m not disheartened by it, as it was an inevitable decision, particularly when you look at the self interest of a number of Premiership clubs.
See Falkirk’s statement, which refers to six clubs not willing to consider ANY reconstruction at this time.
https://www.falkirkfc.co.uk/2020/05/08/club-statement-12/
“At this time” is a convenient excuse for those clubs, e.g. Dave Cormack who said today that he was sympathetic to those clubs being relegated. If he was so sympathetic, then why did he vote for the SPFL resolution in the first place.
It’s the “wrongs” of the original SPFL resolution that I’m more angry about, with Hearts, Partick, Stranraer and a few promotion hopefuls, including tier 5 clubs all determined to be little more than collateral damage.
If the current existential crisis is severe enough to stop consideration of the promised meaningful consideration of reconstruction, they why the hell did the SPFL Board seek to implement such a wide ranging resolution that was always create division and self interest, in the same exceptional circumstances.
CO
Was just about to say the same thing.
Just can’t shake the feeling that the recent troubles are the precursor to an announcement by TRFC that it will not take part in season 20/21.
Think it is likely that a number of clubs will run the numbers and decide that they couldn’t make it through the season.
Would TRFC supporters see taking a year out as a principled decision to destroy the SKY deal – or would they recognise the economic realities for their own club?
I should have added that I'm probably a bit old fashioned in terms of my views on football. It is a game primarily about players and fans, Since the money men have got involved, the interests of the fans has diminished. Decision making is now more about financial considerations rather than footballing ones.
When football does resume, you can be assured that I will take more interest in non-SPFL and youth football, rather than the products of the trade association that purportedly represents the collective interests of 42 clubs, but in actuality only seeks to implement the agendas of a handful of those clubs.
The season is not over for the SPFL Premiership.
There is still the possibility of clubs going into administration and because the division is still going being penalised this season.
St Johnston, 7th in the division are on 36 points.
Hearts, 12th in the divisions are on 23 points.
The current penalty of administration is 15 points.
In fact, as the split has not taken pace it is worth remembering that Hibs are on 37, so a 15 point deduction would put them on 22.
Realistically it is in the best interest of everyone other than Hearts and Rangers to finish the division as far as I can see. Hearts because there is still the possibility of staying up and Rangers because there is still the possibility of Champions League football.
Even if games are not played administration for another club could see them meet that goal. For Rangers that would have to be Celtic.
JIM SPENCE: It’s time for Scottish football to hammer Rangers for bringing the game into disrepute
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/1315761/jim-spence-rangers-fc-spfl/
I never like to return to a subject two weeks in a row, but it’s time for Scottish football to hammer Rangers for bringing the game into disrepute.
Any other club would have been fined heavily by now for the scurrilous and scandalous allegations they’ve thrown around, like the pennies which used to be flung at an old wedding scramble.
The unhinged behaviour from those at Ibrox is a deadly threat to the cohesion and fabric of our game at a time when it’s facing a challenge to its very existence.
I’m not a fan of the way television football broadcasters call the shots in our game but with a new TV deal starting in August, which could be a financial lifesaver for many clubs in the current crisis, the Ibrox club seem unconcerned about starting a conflagration which could burn the whole football house down.
The SPFL board, though, look like they’ve had enough of this stooshie, in which Rangers have alleged coercion and bullying along with their demands for an enquiry into the running of the SPFL, and the suspension of the chief executive and its legal counsel.
With a new £160 million TV contract on the table which may be the difference between life and death for our game, those charged with running our football would be right to be nervous about the reaction of paymaster, Sky television.
I’ve written recently that we should try to wean ourselves off TV money but that would be a long and tough process.
Frankly, it’s as likely as Mike Tyson’s proposed comeback, at the age of 53, ending in anything other than disaster.
With the new TV agreement kicking in this August, our clubs and the SPFL board face potential Armageddon if it is threatened in any way.
Rangers may think that the rest of Scottish football are engaged in a plot to hand Celtic a ninth title in a row, which they are almost certain to win anyway, but that’s frankly bonkers.
The ‘smoking gun’ evidence in their 200-page dossier presented on Thursday – which they hoped would blow the lid off an SPFL board they think is out to get them – turned out to be the equivalent of alcohol-free beer.
The SPFL board are engaged in a battle to protect the safety and income of the game.
That income will be the difference between keeping the Sheriff officers from the door of clubs all over the country when the bills can’t be paid and watching the managers desk and tactics board disappear into a removal van.
Rangers might be happy to see Scottish football crash and burn round their ears.
But I’d say to them, it’s now up to you to decide whether you want to pursue a scorched-earth policy for which Scottish football will never forgive you or come to the table like mature adults and call a halt to this civil war.
As a well-known former journalist who the Ibrox club employed might say: “It’s your call.”
Homunculus 8th May 2020 at 22:51
The season is not over for the SPFL Premiership.
There is still the possibility of clubs going into administration and because the division is still going being penalised this season.
===========================
I have no desire to inflict insolvency on any club, whether it benefits Hearts or not.
Any points penalty would be appealed in any event, as being the result of force majeure. The SFA/SPFL could hardly reject such an appeal given their acceptance of the SPFL's QC's opinion about force majeure in respect of the Sky and BT contracts.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/thousands-raised-scots-football-club-21857364
EJ, Talking about juniors, Bellshill Athletic’s ground got attacked by vandals about a month ago. They burned down the building which contained the turnstiles, changing rooms, stores and catering kiosk.
I’d never heard of them but felt this was shocking for a junior club. I sent a small donation to their Go Fund Me appeal. So far they have raised £6595.
They were aiming for £8k I think. hope they make it.
jimbo 8th May 2020 at 23:19
EJ, Talking about juniors, Bellshill Athletic’s ground got attacked by vandals about a month ago. They burned down the building which contained the turnstiles, changing rooms, stores and catering kiosk.
I’d never heard of them but felt this was shocking for a junior club. I sent a small donation to their Go Fund Me appeal. So far they have raised £6595.
They were aiming for £8k I think. hope they make it.
=============================
I was aware of it on the day of the fire. It's just mindless vandalism. A few other semi professional outfits have similarly suffered incidents of arson or burglary over the last few months. That I'm afraid is nature of the society that we live in.
I'm sure that Bellshill will be OK given the support they have received to date.
I'm looking forward to the 67 WOSFL clubs joining the pyramid next season. It will add a new dimension to the Lowland League the following season, and hopefully help inject some new life into the lower reaches of the SPFL beyond that.
All 63 West Juniors have been accepted into the new league along with, Bonnyton from the SOSFL although they come from Kilmarnock, Glasgow University who play at Airdrie's Excelsior stadium, an amateur side in Drumchapel Utd who play at the Donald Dewar Centre and ex-juvenile side St Cadocs, which is based in Newton Mearns but will start off ground sharing with St Anthony's.
Homunculus 8th May 2020 at 22:59
From your post of Spence's press piece:
'…..The unhinged behaviour from those at Ibrox..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
And 'unhinged' it seems to be.
As unhinged and viciously lunatic as Adolf and his Reich were, even when that evil and cowardly bast.rd of a madman had already killed himself, and his 1000 year Reich failed after less than two decades.
Mad dog lunacy – except that the lunatics are besuited 'respected' businessmen of some social status and standing
As, of course, was Dr Mengele.
Here's to VE day!
John Clark 9th May 2020 at 00:06
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say with that, however I find the comparison abhorrent.
HirsutePursuit 8th May 2020 at 22:35
I think that clubs who make it to the starting blocks (whenever) with suitable cloth-cutting, and perhaps a few struggles, will see out the season with a splash of camaraderie and understanding. The fact is that whatever they got by/needed, in the past will have to go further as fan expenditure will be reduced. That will be right through the card at every level. Put simply there will be less money throughout the game. I expect broadcasters money, including solidarity payments will also be reduced.
It's if and when variable, but odds on, some won't make the starting blocks.
WRT Sevco, their unfathomable erratic behaviour is still subject to the same issue they have always had. When they stop pulling money from a hat they are gone. I don't see a year out as an option for them. Neither did Chuckles in 2012. I don't see another Charlie coming along in 2021 hoping to fill his big hands from a threadbare game, while eating huge start-up costs. ….At least with smaller clubs mothball costs are minimal.
Celtic will also need to downsize to an extent unknown, but have an absorbtion capability. As long as there is a league to play in I'm not too concerned about that, as I see it being echoed pro-rata internationally.
Clubs who have margins and contingencies are best placed. Sevco have neither.
They are acting like a club with no future, other than to amass a p in the £ payout pot for at least some sort of return….With none of the tried and tested feel-good factors, being fitba's "Mons Meg" is all they have. Firing blanks, but noisy as hell.
I doubt the relaxation of insolvent trading laws will prove a good thing for Sevvie ST buyers. Close Finance and Tesco may be negotiating as we speak…..I imagine they too will have contingency plans, as will those awaiting court judgements.
They will be making ring-fencing moves the minute they smell something to ring-fence.
Its a bit like reading a book with pages missing, but knowing the characters involved, and trying to fill the gaps……I think the last page is in tact though.
Corrupt official 9th May 2020 at 00:34
Why do you assume Broadcasters will be less able to support the game.
They are coining it in. It might not be the same ones who buy the game after reconstruction..
easyJambo 8th May 2020 at 23:49
'…..I'm looking forward to the 67 WOSFL clubs joining the pyramid next season. ……'
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eJ, I cannot be alone in admiring and being affected by your knowledge of and enthusiasm for the very essence of football as a sport.
I think it was Auldheid who described his ( imaginary?
) goal on Glasgow Green, a description that maybe for most of us stirred up memories of great moments in our own football playing days.
My last game of eleven-a-side football was in 1969, on a pitch on Glasgow Green, playing for the office team.
I did not cover myself in glory, coming off early with severe cramp in both legs while pretending that a hamstring had gone. ( Was I utterly unfit? Certainly)
But the sheer enjoyment of playing football was the thing, the thing I had enjoyed as a wee boy playing in Cuthelton Street Glasgow in 1951 or so.
Celtic will also need to downsize to an extent unknown, but have an absorbtion capability.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
With their cost base and no income they are most at risk.
Homunculus 9th May 2020 at 00:16
'..I'm not really sure what you are trying to say with that, however I find the comparison abhorrent.'
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Well, basically, no more than that bad b.stards are bad b.stards!
John Clark 9th May 2020 at 01:00
Then you should be ashamed of yourself.
Comparing any of this to what happened with Hitler, the holocaust and in particular what Mengele did is appalling.
I really thought you were better than that.
Bogs Dollox 9th May 2020 at 00:46
Corrupt official 9th May 2020 at 00:34
Why do you assume Broadcasters will be less able to support the game. They are coining it in. It might not be the same ones who buy the game after reconstruction..
I suspect that subscriptions will reduce, both domestically and commercially, and the reduction in viewing figures to have a knock-on effect with advertisers and sponsors. It is not just fitba' that will feel the squeeze. It stands to reason that if fitba' is bricking it that broadcasters will claw-back for lack of viewing hours, broadcasters will suffer a similar claw-back to their income streams.
————————————————————
With their cost base and no income they are most at risk.
—————————————————-
I would say they have most to lose, but not the most at risk, having decent comparable cash reserves. They do have the highest cost base but not zero income. Gate money may be lost, but incoming transfer instalments, sponsorship and limited retail movements all prolong the absorption sustainability period. Additional cash would most likely be made available if there is a league to play in. Assets may be sold to play in it. but enough assets retained to maintain a quality threshhold over the remaining opposition.
easyJambo 8th May 2020 at 22:25
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you EJ. I think the important bit is the bit in bold.
“As you know I have been working with the SPFL reconstruction group over recent weeks and I received a call late this afternoon informing me that six Premier League clubs had indicated they would not support any league reconstruction at the present time.”
I think reconstruction in some shape or form is guaranteed, but quite simply cannot be agreed on at the present time. Everybody has a preferred configuration as to a way forward, but I genuinely believe working to a framework of 42 clubs is running before we can walk. There may not be 42 clubs, so any configuration proposals “at the present time” will be for nought if 42 don’t make it. When more is known I think it inevitable that change will follow. I don’t see it as misleading, and don’t believe disingenuous of the league. I reckon they know it to be inevitable too, but need to let the dog see the rabbit first.. It’s the not knowing that is causing the cloth touching, but the reality is nobody knows…
Not yet.
Not a Fan of the Daily Record but i thought Chris Suttons Article hit the nail on the head.
The great pretenders and great deflectors.
easyJambo 8th May 2020 at 22:25
I’m not disheartened by it, as it was an inevitable decision, particularly when you look at the self interest of a number of Premiership clubs.
See Falkirk’s statement, which refers to six clubs not willing to consider ANY reconstruction at this time.
https://www.falkirkfc.co.uk/2020/05/08/club-statement-12/
=========================================
EJ, I read the Falkirk statement with mounting anger.
“You will share my anger at this latest injustice, the failed promises and the general mismanagement that has occurred at the top of Scottish football for many years.
The handling of this entire situation has been farcical ranging from the decisions made by the SPFL board to those clubs who have, what could only be charitably described as, misled and deceived.”
This current situation has its roots in 2012 when a new club was allowed to claim the history of a cheating club consigned to liquidation. A new club that was ushered into the Scottish Leagues in total contravention of rules and regulations.
Warnings given by fans at the time went unheeded. Problems do not go away, they just fester and grow.
This is the time for the long awaited announcement of the investigation into Rangers* being granted a European licence. This is the time for the publication of the 5WA, the announcement that club histories cannot be bought, that tax cheating brings undoubted footballing advantage and trophies won by such means are illegitimate.
This is time for Rangers* becoming Asterisk FC.
Scottish Football needs the courage to grasp this nettle.
Gordon Bennett!
Or more accurately: John Bennett, the vice-Chairman of RIFC.
In a Q&A article in the DR today he has turned the vitriol up to ’11’.
No conciliatory noises – at all – in the run up to the EGM on Tuesday: just doubling down on the discredited dossier contents – and the permanent, Ibrox victimhood.
This aggressive approach might sell a few more ST’s in the immediate term, but TRFC is rapidly burning any bridges left at Hampden and other clubs, IMO.
Desperate times in the Blue Room?
redlichtie @ 10.40
Quite frankly, there’s no point in Falkirk, and like minded clubs, cryin’ over spilt milk noo.
Where in tarnation have they been this past decade in particular during the ‘general mismanagement … for many years’ of this member organisation- as they themselves put it?
A bit late (morally speaking) to ‘put their head above the parapet’ ?
Homunculus 9th May 2020 at 01:16
'…Comparing any of this to what happened with Hitler, the holocaust and in particular what Mengele did is appalling.'
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Come now, Homunculus!
I don't think I was making any comparison between the evil that Adolf, Mengele and the Nazis generally perpetrated: there has never been such evil as came from such as those!
The comparison I make is with the lying state of mind and the mad-dog lashing out of frustrated cheats whose 8- years- long nonsense ( the propagation of which was aided and abetted by the SMSM) is perhaps about to end in the same way as SDM's nonsense ended.
I feel the same revulsion for those besuited 'businessmen' (and the 'journalists' who propagandised on their behalf) as I do for the Nazis, whose defeat we celebrated yesterday.
I do not equate the sufferings and deaths of millions with the piddling matter of football!
Corrupt official 9th May 2020 at 02:25
“As you know I have been working with the SPFL reconstruction group over recent weeks and I received a call late this afternoon informing me that six Premier League clubs had indicated they would not support any league reconstruction at the present time.”
===============================
As far as I'm concerned this is the ideal time, while we have a hiatus with no clear indication of when it will end.
Scottish football made a big mistake in 2013 when it merged the SPL and SFL. In doing so the SPL moved away from a single league of 12 full time clubs, to four divisions comprising 42 clubs, with around 20 full time and 22 part time clubs.
The apparent and laudable inclusivity of that step created unintended consequences. The financial settlement (primarily to accommodate TRFC) and the voting structures put in place left a disproportionate amount of power in the hands of the part time clubs, e.g the votes of six lower league clubs can block efforts to change the financial distribution or league structure.
Immediately before RFC's demise, there were moves to create an SPL 2. It would have created a much more compact league structure comprising of a large majority of full time clubs. The number of clubs in the new league structure would be appropriate for of country of Scotland's size. It would be sustainable with the financial backing of the broadcasters.
Don't get me wrong, those smaller clubs have a place in Scottish football, but not at the top table. As semi professional clubs, they are primarily community focused and do provide an opportunity for players to find a level appropriate to their ability and for fans to support their local clubs. To that extent they are little different to the 240 or so clubs (Senior and Junior) that survive outside the SPFL
The SFA, to their credit for once, established in 2013 a league pyramid below the SPFL involving the Highland, Lowland, East of Scotland and South of Scotland Leagues. It also allowed Licensed clubs direct entry to the Scottish Cup and eligibility for promotion to the SPFL. In recent seasons the pyramid has strengthened and developed immeasurably with the inclusion of 25+ former East Junior clubs a couple of seasons ago, and will expand further next season with the 63 former West Juniors and another 8 East Juniors making the switch. There will be approximately 195 clubs in the non-SPFL pyramid next season.
The carrot of Licensing to the ambitious clubs among those ranks has led to a huge improvement in facilities at many of those grounds, involving the provision of cover, seats, floodlights, toilets and disabled facilities.
Why does all that matter? The reality now is that the best of the clubs in the non league pyramid now present a threat to the standing and future of the part time clubs in the SPFL. We have seen Cove Rangers and Edinburgh City and both join the SPFL in the last few years and now top League 2, with East Stirling and Berwick Rangers going in the opposite direction. In the Scottish cup this season, Bonnyrigg, Broxburn and Penicuik all beat L1 or L2 sides. Once clubs such as Auchinleck and Pollok get their SFA Licences then the pressure for change will become irresistible.
This season has seen more than £1.4m in SPFL fee payments go to L1 and L2 clubs (ranging from £125k to a minimum of £45k). The HL and LL sides get nothing from that cake. Access to those sort of sums could be transformational for the non league clubs, or their absence would see traditional L1 and L2 clubs lose their financial advantage.
So what does the SPFL do in the current circumstances? The lower league sides close ranks and, for reasons of self interest, block off entry to L2 and protect their future fee payments for another season, leaving Brora and Kelty kicking their heels. They also joined fores to reject any reconstruction proposals that would allow for the entry of new clubs at the bottom tier of the SPFL.
Getting back to the original point, I think that now is exactly the right time for radical change to the league structure and make the split between the full time and semi professional games, while maintaining the means of progression for ambitious clubs to move up from any point in the pyramid right to the top tier. However, I can't see it happening anytime soon while the tail retains the ability to wag the dog.
StevieBC 9th May 2020 at 10:46
===============
Their strategy will pay some sort of dividend though in my view. They almost certainly won't get their resolution through, but they have managed to get permanent stains on the integrity of Doncaster, McKenzie, and Maclennan. I expect over the next few months all will move on. Rangers have enough public and media support to make the mud stick. It's probably already job done on that count.
The question is who would replace them though? Effectively if they don't meet with Rangers approval do they become a moving target right away?
‘StevieBC 9th May 2020 at 10:46
…Desperate times in the Blue Room?’
#################################
I posted the following on 27.04.20 at 1109hrs:
‘I don’t think that RIFC/TRFC (whichever entity is driving this scheme) is any more upset than is the norm for that organisation. What’s different at the moment is how that ‘upset’ is being managed, particularly without the input (Steadying hand? Ah-ha!) of DCK & Traynor.
I think RIFC/TRFC’s actions are driven, like many bullies, by fear; fear of being seen as ordinary, fear of their perceived WATP lead-dog position being replaced by being one of the pack, fear of losing ‘credibility’ with their foot-soldiers (and hence the ‘Ulsterisation’ that’s occurring to ‘spice up’ their following), fear of skeletons tumbling out of closets &, perhaps above all, fear of being skint to the extent that they seemingly are.
I suspect that things are very-much on the knife-edge at Ibrox. World events have diminished the perceived/inflated values of Morelos/Barisic/Tavernier/Kamara/Goldson et al. Those same world events have chased away the blessing of unicorns, all with £10m bank drafts impaled on their horns, which were almost ready to be corralled for ‘fresh investment’. Debts are due to be serviced, but the cupboard’s bare.
They’re in the sh!t up to their oxters & they know it. They think their best way out is to splash about & spread the contaminant over anyone close by. It really isn’t & D. Park & co. should know that, but their mindset sees that as their only option.’
It’s now two weeks further along the road with minimal/zero cash coming in. The financial pressures that TRFC was feeling then has been ramped up even higher. Their dossier appears, in the main, to be a busted flush. D. Park has worries with his other business interests. Robertson has been scapegoated by his own employers. Gerrard is understandably absent, but where’s McAllister? They have no functioning PR (although it appears Jimmy Bell is doing his utmost in the role!).
They are currently depending on lashing out & deflecting. They’re doing both with the utmost vigour, assisted by their SMSM placemen.
Edit: I read somewhere that one of Robertson’s complaints about the SPFL board was that he was often the only dissenting voice & that votes were frequently 8-1. He seems not to understand that’s how committees & boards work. Perhaps TRFC’s one vote should have counted as 10 votes to ensure that his/their view always prevailed? Sobering not being the ‘big dog’ in the kennel?
Two days after the Order (colour unknown but suspected to be Orange) from the top of the Marble Staircase to “Unleash Da Dossier” I don’t know which bit, coupled with subsequent commentary, impresses me the least.
One bit which catches the eye is T’Rangers fulminating about Rod McKenzie making four Cease and Desist requests to Douglas Park, Not The Chairman Of The Football Playing Wing Of …T’Rangers…, on 10th and 11th April 2020.
After trying to jigsaw what T’Rangers are on about I’m none the wiser. Which may, in and of itself, be a good thing. However, between Robertson, MD/CEO but sadly no EBT, stating on radio T’Rangers have never used certain words only to have those very words pointed out in a Club (or was it Company?) Statement and the SPFL letter outlining what happened on 10th and 11th April 2020 I now know slightly more.
T’Rangers (or Douglas Park) got four STFUs. T’Rangers issued “We will not be bullied into silence”. T’Rangers reissued about five minutes after the SPFL gave their “Is that it?” response to Da Dossier. The SPFL have had to disclose Douglas Park said something to Neil Doncaster and threatened some course of action which led to Neil Doncaster consulting Rod McKenzie to issuing said STFUs.
What I find striking is that four weeks on from 10th and 11th April 2020 we’ve heard nothing. Silence. T’Rangers have desisted. T’Rangers have ceased. It’s almost as if Neil Doncaster had a point and Rod McKenzie was well-entitled to make the four requests.
We have the word of T’Rangers that the silence is not the result of bullying so it must be the result of something else. Like prudence. We can only hope that we hear nothing further. It would be unfortunate if someone were stupid enough not only to fail to let sleeping dogs lie but to rouse them and jab them with a sharp stick. It might be the case that the dogs had legal training, or were currently legal practitioners, or had professional and personal reputations to maintain, or were fed up listening to pish being spouted (sound familiar?) and decided one way to sort it out would be a very public retraction and apology and a big cheque. Such might or might not require the involvement of a Court. It all depends on what sort of chap Douglas Park is. Maybe he’s the reasonable sort.
Apart from Hibs, who are the six clubs who voted against reconstruction at this time?
Asking, because I still think it's wrong and should not be beyond the wit of man( even within Scottish Football) that teams are being relegated. Wrong is wrong, wrong ain't right just because someone wears a blue jersey or a green jersery or even a maroon one
Good afternoon everyone. It must be about six years since I last posted on here although I'm still a regular reader.
Apologies if I've missed this, but has anyone anywhere suggested a transitional league structure for next season with 14 top division clubs and then three divisions of 10? This would obviously avoid any relegations this season while still maintaining promotions, including those from below the SPFL.
All hypothetical anyway if the Falkirk statement is an accurate reflection of the position among top division clubs.
Cygnus X-1 9th May 2020 at 12:03
============
The relegation issue in my view is grossly unfair. Perhaps if Anne Budge had not tied her flag to Rangers mast without even seeing their so called evidence, who knows.
However, I don't believe reconstruction is completely dead yet. Once the season is decided and the economic impact is more established, reconstruction might become necessary to give the game a boost. Although right now self interest is a primary factor, events may simply force clubs to get together and genuinely work for the good of the game. Broadcasters I am sure would rather have a top league with Hearts in it. Only my view.
Official statement from Thistle
https://ptfc.co.uk/ptfc-news/board-update-on-reconstruction-and-relegation/
dpj 9th May 2020 at 13:22
Brilliant statement from The Jags.
Hibs, St Mirren, Ross County, Dundee Utd & Aberdeen against reconstruction according to BBC Sportsound.
What an absurd and miserable mess.
So much for “Les Says It is Time to Ask The Audience?” then!
I wonder how Andrew Smith (writer of this blog and Chairman of the Scottish Football Supporters Association) feels? Let down? Betrayed? Duped? A little bit silly? After all, this is a man who trusted Scotland’s football authorities, when we all knew on here they weren’t to be trusted.
He believed that ‘the SFSA has established a positive dialog with the SPFL’S league reconstruction task force’ and that Les Gray and Ann Budge were now realising that the voice of the fans had to be heard. Remember we all contributed to their survey, whose outcomes were trumpeted that 84% of fans don’t want to play the same teams 4 times a season; 64% of fans think relegations as planned by the recent SPFL vote is unfair and should be revisited; 70% of supporters say now is the time to restructure the game – not just a quick fix. These were the messages that were to be taken on board by the SPFL.
When will fans (and fans organisations) realise that being nice is seen as being weak by the authorities and clubs in charge of the(ir!!) game? I realise I’m sort of playing the man (SFSA) and not the ball here, but I had concerns about the SFSA as soon as their first inaction on trumpeting their arrival was to NOT call out the 5WA, RES12, use of EBTs, the Big Lie etc. Their rallying cry of being independent – unlike the equally useless Supporters Direct – means nothing if they won’t tackle the issues that most of their membership want them to attack. Being nice means you get ignored by the sort of people running our game, as Partick Thistle’s letter today proves.
Sorry, I’m angry!
dpj 9th May 2020 at 13:22
Official statement from Thistle
https://ptfc.co.uk/ptfc-news/board-update-on-reconstruction-and-relegation/
==================================
I agree with Jacqui
LUGOSI 9th May 2020 at 11:44
T’Rangers (or Douglas Park) got four STFUs. T’Rangers issued “We will not be bullied into silence”. T’Rangers reissued about five minutes after the SPFL gave their “Is that it?” response to Da Dossier. The SPFL have had to disclose Douglas Park said something to Neil Doncaster and threatened some course of action which led to Neil Doncaster consulting Rod McKenzie to issuing said STFUs.
………………
I always read the Park, Rod McKenzie exchange as, McKenzie trying to do park a favour.Basically, if you keep this up without any evidence produced you will be fined or worse for bringing the game into disrepute, this is not the right way to do things.
And we have not heard from park since instead each day brings out a new poodle from ibrox, i wonder if they have a game of musical chairs to see who is puting out the next crazy statement.
Clubs vote in their own interests i don't think reconstruction had a chance.
Sorry mess we are in with no happy ending in sight
I can't see Hearts taking legal action directly at this time, mainly because of the risk and cost of losing the case.
However, there is always the possibility of getting legal advice then submitting a "letter before claim" to the SPFL outlining the reasons for and an indication of the quantum of any claim (the value of the full claim might not become clear until the end of next season, or even the following season). It should also leave open the possibility of a settlement figure being agreed through mediation.
Hearts could then sit on it for as long as they want to see if it prompts the SPFL into some action. It would require the SPFL to acknowledge the claim in their accounts and possibly delay or reduce the distribution of funds to all clubs as a result of the contingent liability. It might not achieve much in the long run, particularly if Hearts gets promoted at the first time of asking, but it would certainly serve to disrupt the operation of the SPFL in the short term.
The cost of taking such a course of action would be a fraction of that if they were to take the case to court and lose.
Nawlite 9th May 2020 at 14:24
So much for “Les Says It is Time to Ask The Audience?” then!
I wonder how Andrew Smith (writer of this blog and Chairman of the Scottish Football Supporters Association) feels? Let down? Betrayed? Duped? A little bit silly? After all, this is a man who trusted Scotland’s football authorities, when we all knew on here they weren’t to be trusted.
==========================================
I've just had an e-mail from the SFSA pointing to their news story 'Are The Fans Revolting".
This e-mail says : "So reconstruction has been kicked into touch wether (sic) we like it or not. At least there were positive signs along the way that fans might just have more say in future. We can but hope!"
Are these guys on the same Deludamol as those of a blue persuasion?
I commented at the time of Andrew Smith's podcast that the SPFL, etc have nothing to fear from his organisation. I was hugely underwhelmed by what he said.
The complete ignoring of their letter to Les Gray provides categorical evidence that his organisation is seen as irrelevant.
Instead of seizing the initiative ('Together We Can Make A Difference' they claim) and telling the SFA/SPFL that the fans are revolting and demand representation otherwise there is the potential for a boycott which Scottish Football can ill afford, the SFSA just rolls over. "We can but hope!" they say!
The positive for clubs is that getting fans properly engaged can lead to initiatives to provide some fan funding and other support in the difficult months ahead. And fresh ideas from outwith the 'smoke filled rooms' that haven't worked well for a long time.
Scottish Football needs a fan organisation that actually stands up for fans in a time of crisis. Speak truth to power.
Yeah, I got it too, RL, just after my post. I joined thinking they might be willing to carry the fight. Was I duped too?!
We're all duped!
There were strong hints today on Sportsound that the 2019-20 premiership will indeed not be re-started. For example, Accies Chairman suggested that they won’t have enough players in June or July to play if they were required to re-start. Are Celtic to be denied a chance to win the title on the park and Hearts to be relegated because some clubs can’t field a team?
Absolutely fair enough if it is still not safe to play in 6 or 8 weeks time, but surely not because of not having enough players in your squad? That can’t be right for a professional football league.
There is no doubt that our clubs don't deserve us.
This is a copy of the SFSA letter to Les Gray from the stuff they sent me today.
Listening on BBC Shortbread to the anger today from the Brora Chairman, the Stranraer Chairman and others who all feel let down by the clubs, the SPFL and the SFA.
I wish we could bottle it.
Maybe Les and Ann Budge were duped too and we need a right good civil war to clear the decks.
And who knows where dry land will be whenever the new normal emerges.
Between now and then there will be a lot of pain and heading into our most challenge have no leadership
and dominant self interest driven clubs especially at the top.
Are the customers revolting?
Date: 7th May 2020
Are the Customers Revolting?
Thanks to all those at SFM who along with many others completed our recent FANQ research in astonishing time and also responded both through the SFM blog or direct to my email address.
I’ve had several conversations subsequent with fans as far away as Vancouver, Australia, Kazakhstan, over the border in England and from all corners of Scotland.
I have also discussed our survey results and pointers with people running SPFL clubs
Scottish fans will seldom agree about anything or everything but it is loud and clear that both those running the clubs and the fans share deep concerns about where we have been, where we are now (if anyone actually knows) and most of all with where we are heading.
Ann Budge’s “keep making the same mistakes” statement was oft commented on and mostly liked.
Nearly all fans agree100% with what she is saying, especially her “openness, transparency and pragmatism” plea to the SPFL, and I guess the SFA too, but some were more cynical saying that words are cheap.
The kind of words we only seem to hear when there is a crisis before it all gets forgotten.
In the meantime our game and our clubs are blindfolded, wheeching down the slippiest steep slope to the biggest full-blown crisis our game has ever seen.
All are deeply concerned but there is no hindsight or experience to look back on.
It’s all scary and very, very real new territory.
Panic is on the horizon.
Perhaps the biggest manifestation of this is the current war of words and posturing in the MSM that has erupted since the SPFL Good Friday vote.
At the same time the well-respected Dr John Mclean was talking recently in deeply chilling terms about just what social distancing means for our game. Without a vaccine or other game changer there is no easy path forward.
Dr Mclean’s vision of a dystopian world should be all we’re all talking about and preparing for.
Players will not be able to play.
Fans would not be able to attend.
Paying customers will have less money to spend because the economy will have a tumble after an initial sharp boom.
Club revenue streams will be decimated from all directions.
Long established clubs will run out of money.
In the meantime we continue to see a lot of running round like headless chickens trying to achieve all manner of things based on historic thinking and practices that have been rendered as useless as Andre Maginot’s famous line.
A defence line that became obsolete overnight and useless when needed.
That is where we are right now.
No real defence or strategy as a football community against the indeterminate financial chaos that is descending.
A world with extreme revenue challenges about to hit a system that some feel is dominated by self-interested members trying to play by the old mantras and allegiances.
Not a great place to be for all of us.
It was against this and in good faith that we submitted our collective response to Les Gray last Friday.
We know our football world will have to be rebuilt bottom up and we don’t pretend to have all the answers.
We do know that independent fan involvement will provide a framework that ensures Ann Budge’s plea for openness, transparency and pragmatism becomes more than rhetoric.
Not so Much as Revolting as Never More Needed
(Draft Response on behalf of Scottish Football Supporters Association)
Hi Les,
In a time where you will be being bombarded with stuff from all directions here are the abbreviated findings and recommendations from our fast research FanQ panel with further qualitative insights from two group sessions.
To use the old adage I’m not going to bore you with statistics because these are not boring statistics.
Headlines
87% of fans believe their on-going representation in what happens would be a benefit to Scottish Football.
84% of fans believe they currently have no say.
75% of fans agree that ending the season under UEFA guidelines is the best path.
64% of fans think relegations as planned by the recent SPFL vote is unfair and should be revisited.
When interrogated further we see that fans accept that there are two requirements.
1 An end to season 2019-2020 and a plan for football returning.
2 Changes to how the game is set up and run.
1 Ending Season 2019 -2020
(Set against the reality that right now nobody knows what the situation really is or will be. With no certainty of any start date or how social distancing might evolve pre-vaccine, fans believe we should build in flexibility to agree the specifics for next season when more is known and indeed it might be more like the first season after WW2 than a normal year.
The better-informed fans think the situation is much more complex than the reported discussions so far).
SFSA Recommendations
Award titles on a pro rata basis as per UEFA
Agree a no relegation status for all clubs.
Respect the pyramid at the bottom end.
Consider providing extra help for clubs (in the way a parent company would help out a subsidiary at time of strife).
Football Returning
Having last week hear that League 2 have already endorsed a 14,14,14 set up fans are confused to where their certainty to do this has come from.
As of now there remain too many unknowns.
There is now a deep seated and growing point of view that the first season back will have to be interim because of the start date uncertainties and to allow for any club casualties in this economic winter.
By all means have a plan to keep status quo of 12,10,10,10 if that is what clubs want or 14,14,14 as voted last Friday by some clubs.
We would advocate a 14,14,16 to respect the pyramid as a starting point and indeed fourteen team leagues would stop the iniquity of the current 2/3 home game options post-split we have now.
But we would counsel SPFL not to commit in anything more than principle and to build in flexibility to avoid chaos downstream. An open plan is fine.
Truncation with clubs not surviving or being severely damaged is more likely than not and government driven fan control and safety policies will have a huge impact on logistics and revenues.
There are just too many unknowns to come up with anything more than guidelines.
2 Changes to how our game is set up and run into the future.
(All fans deep down accept that money has become the main driver in any football business discussion and have a love hate relationship with the power of TV.
There is a body of opinion that thinks post Covid 19 revenue streams and business plans will be different. Footballers wages will fall and at some clubs previous player assets will have become liabilities).
Consumer spending power will have fallen, sponsorships and hospitality will be harder to engage, fans will drift away and big contract game-changing providers like Sky may even play hardball and seek to reduce the agreed payments.)
Larger leagues would be welcomed by fans as 83% of fans don’t like playing the same opposition 4 times a year.
But a successful future has to be based on more than a tweaking of the current leagues.
Ann Budge, Task force co-chair recently was quoted as saying “Without openness, transparency and pragmatism we will simply keep making the same mistakes”.
Fans like what she has said but there is cynicism that the last things people in power in football want are openness, transparency and pragmatism rather than the current self-interest driven scenario.
Elephants in the Football Room of Change
These are in alphabetical order and have all come from various SFSA surveys. Some are contradictory.
Better communication from SFA and SPFL, Bigger Leagues, Community involvement, Different allocation of prize-monies, Fairness, Family Friendly, Fan Friendly, Full financial fair play, Gate Sharing, Grass Roots investment, Kick off times, Fewer Clubs, Independent national referee provision out-with SFA, Integrity, Kids free, Leadership, Less leagues, No Bigotry, Openness, Outside expertise, Same rules for all, Schools football, Simplicity, Standing sections, Summer Football, Regional lower SPFL leagues, Reserve Leagues, Strict liability, Transparency, Wholesome Sponsors……
There are so many issues but unaddressed they will all keep coming back and sucking up resource and energy.
It’s the openness transparency and pragmatism thing again.
SFSA Don’t Have All the Answers
We are independent and that is important.
We understand that in every winner/loser champion/relegation situation we have fans on both sides.
We advocate the only way to address any situation now or moving forward is logically and openly.
We know fan input can make a positive impact to the current SPFL issues and into the future.
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I understand on Sportsound today it was stated that what is currently happening is 'far worse' than anything that happened in 2012.
They are going to get someones head on a spike with their continued allegations, innuendo and smears. We should expect better from the BBC, but perhaps that ship sailed some time ago. They can't even say what they actually want out of this.
I struggled to listen to today's Sportsound but persevered. After lots of the usual unhelpful discussion it did become clear that the way forward MAY be for some financial compensation scheme to be created for those teams suffering loss due to relegation.
What would SFM contributers think if clubs were to asked give a commitment to contribute to a compensation scheme with the expectation that they would contribute on a pro rata basis in line with their league placing next season? Payments would be made when funds were distributed by the SPFL.
Maybe Celtic could show willing first of all on the understanding that all the other clubs would follow suit.
nawlite 9th May 2020 at 14:24
Finloch 9th May 2020 at 18:56
———-
I also receive emails from the SFSA. They aren't the first to have been listened to, patronised and ignored by the people with the power. Perhaps the lesson has now been learned and they realise that the only way to loosen a grip on power is to demonstrate one's strength, and that they will have to organise and muster that strength and show a willingness to exercise it if the SPFL and SFA are to be persuaded to pay attention. They need to find their Lenin.
adam812 9th May 2020 at 20:28
————————
As I said earlier I don't think reconstruction is dead. We are still dealing with many unknowns, particularly how club finances will be affected. Reconstruction to boost things may well appeal to some clubs who are against it right now. In my opinion.
UptheHoops at 19:11
I understand on Sportsound today it was stated that what is currently happening is ‘far worse’ than anything that happened in 2012.
They are going to get someones head on a spike with their continued allegations, innuendo and smears. We should expect better from the BBC, but perhaps that ship sailed some time ago. They can’t even say what they actually want out of this.
…
I heard that too and shouted at the radio.
In 2012-13 Doncaster and McKenzie along with Blair, Bryson and Regan were the blue-eyed, brown-brogued boys. Player registration offences for all those seasons and all those games. Cups and league titles. “Guilty. But keep the trophies”. A disgraceful insult to the word ‘sport’.
And Doncaster, McKenzie and the others made it happen. But I still hope that Auldheid (hero) can help them come to their senses and deliver an appropriate sporting penalty for the already declared guilty verdict. It is too important. And now we’re supposed to believe this kiddie-on spat is worse than LNS. No chance.
adam812 9th May 2020 at 20:28
What would SFM contributers think if clubs were to asked give a commitment to contribute to a compensation scheme with the expectation that they would contribute on a pro rata basis in line with their league placing next season? Payments would be made when funds were distributed by the SPFL.
============================
Why would any club want to do that when they have voted themselves into the current situation?
I would doubt very much if any club has a guilty conscience and wants to make amends for making a wrong decision.
I would add that it is likely that, notwithstanding the new Sky deal, the SPFL’s end of season income will be down as they will miss out on their cut of the revenue from the play off matches. It is that revenue that is used to pay the parachute payments, so those payments will have to come from the bigger pot next season, which in turn will cut the fee payments to all clubs.
Probably not really needed but a wake up call from Germany!
Bundesliga restart blow after entire Dynamo Dresden team quarantined
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/may/09/bundesliga-restart-blow-dynamo-dresden-team-quarantined-covid-19?
Abbot of Clonmacnois 9th May 2020 at 21:21
'….And Doncaster, McKenzie and the others made it happen.'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Yes, indeed,AoC.
The SFA, the SPL, and the SFL were in arms-linked lockstep decisive power mode when it came to creating the grubby, disgusting, Integrity-shafting Big Lie.
No difficulty in showing 'leadership' then, to their eternal disgrace, in accommodating a hectoring, bullying upstart of a new club and failing to deal with the monstrous sporting crimes of RFC of 1872.
There is a lovely irony in the fact that TRFC are giving them cause to rue the day they cobbled up the lie that RFC of 1872 had not died.
I have no sympathy either for the Board of the SFA or for the board of the SPFL.
Always thought the idea of parachute payments ridiculous. It seems to reward failure and have the effect of persuading clubs to overreach themselves comforted by the knowledge that should the gamble fail they would stiil have a head start over the competition in the lower league.This is the one season I would find no complaint with such softening of the blow of loss of premiership status.
Good Evening,
It is many months since I have posted.
Strange how things never seem to change. In 2012 after Rangers went into liquidation, I together with many on here, stated that if Sevco were allowed to come into the League , they would come back twice as vile bitter and twisted as before.
Roll on all these years and the vitriol is ten times more bitter.
They have no money and pretend that they want things changed for the good of the game. We all know it is about stopping Celtic becoming Champions.
I was no fan of Neil Doncaster but he was the very person who stated that there was no mechanism to do what they were trying to do i.e. let Sevco into the League, in other words there were no rules so they made them up and allowed Sevco to come into the League and they have come back to bite their saviour. Don't get mad Neil, get even-sink them.
The only thing I agree with "The Rangers" formerly known as Sevco Ltd on, is that there should be an inquiry into Scottish Football, provided it encompasses everything that has transpired from 2012, the EBT years before that, the fraudulent awarding of a Champions league spot to Rangers and al the cheating during the SDM years.
It won't happen.
At a time when people throughout the world are dying and society as we knew it may not return in the foreseeable future "The Rangers" indulge in self centred self serving rhetoric without substance to deflect from their own failings.
They wanted a loan and couldn't make the maths stack up.
Liquidation awaits and if had been any other business in the UK, irrespective of the pandemic, they would have gone down the tubes long ago.
It is important to stay safe and follow the science. Life is more important than football.
Support your club, renew your season ticket if you can, because football will come back and if you help your club , it will be there when we come out of this.
i genuinely don’t get what people are struggling with here (and I’m not having a go directly at you Abbot).
One of the Lower league Chairmen used Stranraer as an example on or around the 10th APRIL to put the point that we could wish for a conclusion all we liked but if it was after 10th June the player registration thing was going to become an issue. And nothing that’s happened since, particularly the lack of leadership shown would convince a Chairman to start throwing new contracts around. Why would you?
adam812 9th May 2020 at 22:20
'..Bundesliga restart blow after entire Dynamo Dresden team quarantined..'
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
That is a bit of a bugger! Very disappointing news indeed.
I don't particularly want to die, but I was hoping that the Germans' effort would succeed and that other nations could begin to progress in the same way and that some safe way of having football played would be found sooner rather than later.
Very disappointed, but maybe not surprised.
I won't shoot the messenger, adam812-thanks for flagging that up!
Donald Park now saying that Rangers will foot the bill for an independent investigation into the SPFL! Lets get them to pay for the 10 year plus investigation!
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/rangers/rangers-offer-pay-independent-investigation-spfl-2848074
He can head to Switzerland and take it to the court of arbitration for sport , bet he doesn't . More hot air and double bluffing from Windbag Central.
Timtim 9th May 2020 at 23:48
More hot air and double bluffing from Windbag Central.
——————
Maybe, but I'm getting the sense that this is about more than season book sales. They are after the SPFL. What have they been refused?
easyJambo 9th May 2020 at 22:03
'..I would doubt very much if any club has a guilty conscience and wants to make amends for making a wrong decision.'
""""""""""""""""""""""
Mightn't it be the case, eJ, that the fault lies not so much in the making of a wrong decision as in the failure to acknowledge that some clubs are innocent victims of factors that are not in any way of their creation?
It seems to me that Scottish Football should be prepared to pay the financial price of applying the 'rules' in the extraordinary circumstances of covid19.
The interdependence of the businesses in the 'football industry' really requires that each individual business in that industry should be prepared to contribute to a fund to assist the clubs that will be relegated because of their present position from which they might very well get out of if the fixture list could be completed in the normal season.
[In sharp distinction, of course, from assisting any cheating club to survive the consequences of that cheating!]
@macfurgly my guess is they aint getting that euro licence because they are basically trading while insolvent , no euro licence ends any very slim hope of investment and exposure for selling players. Park is watching the millions he has invested turning to dust , King has done a bunk and left him holding a grenade with the pin missing. This is the desperate and irrational behaviour of a man who is watching everything he has worked for disappear. It's all over bar the shouting , as far as I know lawyers don't accept vouchers for the Ibrox megastore as payment for services although they could always ask Donald Findlay.
Rangers have offered to pay for something that isn’t going to happen.
One has to admire that level of manipulation. The support would appear to be lapping it up.
Very well played actually, if shafting your own supporters is the goal you are aiming for.
macfurgly 9th May 2020 at 23:53
'…I'm getting the sense that this is about more than season book sales. They are after the SPFL. What have they been refused?'
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
We could have a lot of fun with that, macfurgly!
Mmmm. Let's see.
Could they have been told that there is no chance of a TRFC 2 if TRFC 1 crashes and burns?
That the dirty wee arrangement of the 5-Way agreement will not be repeated?
That if they go bust, they go as bust as Gretna, Third Lanark…..?
macfurgly 9th May 2020 at 23:53
Timtim 9th May 2020 at 23:48
More hot air and double bluffing from Windbag Central.
——————
Maybe, but I’m getting the sense that this is about more than season book sales. They are after the SPFL. What have they been refused?
Ok I will say it again.
Money.
Also no prospect this time of a Sevco2.
They have backed themselves in to a corner. For a reason.
Timtim 10th May 2020 at 00:08
John Clark 10th May 2020 at 00:24
Timtim – possible, likely in my view, but there has to be a plan for the future in there somewhere.
JC – Indeed we could, but fun though it may be, there is a rationale behind this somewhere.
Incidentally, your Gombeen Man got it in the neck again today. For a professional journalist (?) there can be few things more humiliating than being “shushed” on national radio because your interventions have become too embarrassing.
Hoopy 7 9th May 2020 at 22:36
Good Evening,
It is many months since I have posted.
========================================
I’ve not posted for ages (much longer than a few months!) and I was trying to work out something to say to reintroduce myself but your post hit the nail on the head and saved me a lot of typing.
Thanks for that Hoopy 7.
Hopefully I’ll be able to join in the as-ever excellent discussions, although I was a bit concerned the other day when an old pain in the proverbial resurfaced and threatened to upset the decorum of the site.
The Cat NR1
Bogs Dollox 10th May 2020 at 00:56
Ok I will say it again.
Money.
Agreed, but which and how?
…. but there must be more than that. The SPFL doesn't have enough money to give them for what they need. They need "regime change" I think.
I missed this yesterday. Apologies if it has already been posted.
An interesting approach being considered as to how to end the EL Div 1 and 2 – it'll never catch on!
https://talksport.com/football/efl/703590/leagues-one-two-abandoned-next-week-efl-promotion-relegation/
adam812 9th May 2020 at 23:27
Pinsent Mason on speed-dial Adam?……What's to investigate. Sevco have uncovered all evidence, engaged a top QC and everything, then wrapped it up neatly in a 200 page dossier. ….It will be discussed and voted on by the clubs.
What would happen with a freebie independent investigation?………Errrrrrrrr, It will be discussed and voted on by the clubs.
Are Sevco saying they have made a right arse of their own dossier?…They had plenty of time, so whose fault is that?
I better phone my daughter….. She has never seen a one-armed man with an itchy arse, hanging on the edge of a cliff before. She'll want to put it on youtube.
https://twitter.com/thescotsman/status/1259372882771271680?s=21
For my next witness, I call Mr Ian Hislop.
Timtim 10th May 2020 at 00:08
Yes, but any long term listeners would surely agree how much more vociferous, numerous and openly stated his interventions are this time around. Thats not to infer Rangersness, or bias or corruption or whatever. It is to say that he's spent the last 8 years of the media game missing sitters handed to him on a plate in open goals from 3 yards and is now, in injury time, trying difficult speculative efforts from 35 yards when an easier, and more effective pass is on for him
It seems Rangers are back down the line of loans to keep operating.
This answer by the interim chairman is significantly shorter than the rest.
https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/interim-chairman-douglas-park-qa/
The fact that the business model in the Scottish game renders the English route of behind-closed-doors games not viable means the club could be without important tranches of income for up to nine months. The last Rangers accounts said an additional £10m would be required to cover the season. How will Rangers meet their financial obligations in this unprecedented situation?
The funding gap referred to has already been filled by existing investors
Homunculus 10th May 2020 at 09:38
The funding gap referred to has already been filled by existing investors
===========================
That got me thinking why they haven't gone down the route of issuing more shares.
Does one shareholder not want his holding to be diluted below the 25% blocking stake that he currently holds?
Homunculus 10th May 2020 at 09:38
It seems Rangers are back down the line of loans to keep operating.
This answer by the interim chairman is significantly shorter than the rest.
https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/interim-chairman-douglas-park-qa/
The fact that the business model in the Scottish game renders the English route of behind-closed-doors games not viable means the club could be without important tranches of income for up to nine months. The last Rangers accounts said an additional £10m would be required to cover the season. How will Rangers meet their financial obligations in this unprecedented situation?
The funding gap referred to has already been filled by existing investors
===============================================
Does this provide an answer as to why Rangers* are behaving in this way?
Black hole ‘investors’ tapped again for huge sums thus increasing their exposure then….
Euro licence still refused? (Why was this not disclosed?)
COVID-19 has major negative impact on finances.
SPFL refuses loan.
League has to be called before funds released – between the devil and deep blue sea of 9IAR.
Close Brothers starting to get closer?
Potential investors “remain fully engaged and we will be in a position to announce something in the next couple of months.” Do they have a couple of months? Will those investors be immune to the financial implications of the pandemic?
Squeaky bum time as SAF would say?
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
PS Still nae interims.
Smugas 9th May 2020 at 22:38
I genuinely don’t get what people are struggling with here (and I’m not having a go directly at you Abbot).
One of the Lower league Chairmen used Stranraer as an example on or around the 10th APRIL to put the point that we could wish for a conclusion all we liked but if it was after 10th June the player registration thing was going to become an issue. And nothing that’s happened since, particularly the lack of leadership shown would convince a Chairman to start throwing new contracts around. Why would you?
……..
Smugas, thanks for your reply and I appreciate your point about the cost of new contracts for players who can’t actually play because of the emergency.
But if football re-starts because the government allows it to, clubs have to play. I don’t agree that releasing players when you still might need them to play at some point is a valid position. Certainly not for me when it comes to the premier league.
The only valid reason (and it’s a huge one of course) not to re-start is the continued risk to the health and ultimately the lives of participants.
All the best.
If the funding gap has already been filled by original investors why was it not announced publicly ? Surely if it had been it would have calmed the fans ,investors and creditors . I'm sure some friendly journalist could have got the message out or even their own PR Dept could have included it in one of their many statements. Call me cynical but this one liner of " it's been dealt with" doesn't ring true. The far East investment hasn't gone away either , apparently and no doubt that share issue will be up and running just as soon as the situation normalises.
The final answer in the Q&A from Park today in the DR;
“This episode is far from finished. Rangers will never hesitate in shining a light on poor corporate governance. I’d like to think the SPFL might recognise its failings and accept an investigation is necessary. It is not too late for them to do so consensually.”
================
Would have been interesting if Park – or Bennett yesterday – had been asked about what they thought of the SPL, and Doncaster, performances in 2012…?
And for Park to drag up again;
is both embarrassing and desperate stuff.
And for balance:
the RIFC Chairman should also be enquiring if any other current, SPFL Board members – during the last 30 years – have made any openly negative, (or even positive), comments about any another SPL/SPFL club?
Mibbees that could be added to the scope of any SPFL investigation…?
"The funding gap referred to has already been filled by existing investors"
(Douglas Park)
If that is the case, surely that would be an encouragement to publish the interim accounts?
Stevie BC
I'm all for an independent investigation – so long as the terms of reference are historical (no chance right?).
I'm also most cynical about the offer by Desperate Dan to pay for said investigation.
This idiotic utterance is meaningless, as he knows he won't get one – or, even if he does, SEVCO might not be around to 'pony up'.
Homunculus 10th May 2020 at 09:38
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It seems Rangers are back down the line of loans to keep operating.
This answer by the interim chairman is significantly shorter than the rest.
https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/interim-chairman-douglas-park-qa/
The fact that the business model in the Scottish game renders the English route of behind-closed-doors games not viable means the club could be without important tranches of income for up to nine months. The last Rangers accounts said an additional £10m would be required to cover the season. How will Rangers meet their financial obligations in this unprecedented situation?
The funding gap referred to has already been filled by existing investors
…………
A £10mill gap has been filled by loans(so much for debt free)
Add to that the defered wages,at some point this all has to get paid back. What do they intend to pay it back with, more loans or £25 vouchers?
adam812 9th May 2020 at 23:27
Donald Park now saying that Rangers will foot the bill for an independent investigation into the SPFL! Lets get them to pay for the 10 year plus investigation!
———————————————————————————————————
What is the old saying?
"Whoever pays the piper calls the tune"
I'm sure the SPFL will ignore this offer, but if they did agree, it would be a very narrow, low-cost investigation aimed squarely at achieving everything on the 2angers wish list.
I really believe Celtic missed a great opportunity at the start of all this, when 2angers cried their crocodile tears regarding doing what's best for all clubs and Scottish Football in general.
I would love to have seen Celtic put forward a resolution, with a suggestion that all remaining prize money across all divisions, should be split equally to help support all clubs through this very difficult time. I'm not sure exactly what the split would be as to winners and losers, but would hazzard a guess that maybe below positions 1 to 3 or 4 would benefit, with Celtic as the biggest losers closely followed by the "community-spirited" 2angers.
Not only would Celtic gain kudos from this magnanimous offer, it would have the board atop the marble staircase beside themselves with rage, but unable to vote against the resolution, without having their "concern for fellow clubs" shown as the bluff it was. As the vast majority of clubs would be better off, the resolution may have been passed. Boy would that have been amusing….
redlichtie 10th May 2020 at 10:14
Does this provide an answer as to why Rangers* are behaving in this way?
Black hole ‘investors’ tapped again for huge sums thus increasing their exposure then….
Euro licence still refused? (Why was this not disclosed?)
………………..
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1259427509336248320/photo/1
……
Maybe it has been refused, and the rangers want that desicion put on hold as club licensing provisions have been suspended.
The ibrox club may be trying to buy time.
Cluster One 10th May 2020 at 11:25
=============
In my view it reads more like the SFA are suspending the need to meet certain requirements before issuing a licence. Not that there is any chance they would ever refuse one to Rangers anyway.
@EJ 10;14
Good point , King has worked very hard to get his 25% holding , I doubt he would relinquish this degree of control easily and without his nod of approval debt for equity swaps won’t happen and neither will share issues .This leaves a buyout of his shares the only way to free them of his influence and his cold shoulder contagion and realistically the only way for King to recoup his investment. Funding the shortfall (or repaying those who have filled in the hole) buying out King ,paying off Close,Hummel,Elite and Memorial Walls , paying the outstanding transfers and sorting out the deferred wages before even thinking about providing Gerrard with a transfer kitty is an eye watering amount of money that even a full ST uptake gets close to addressing . As for issuing a licence , should the sfa do so and should the club* go bust mid season then there really will be an investigation that exposes unprofessional behaviour and heads will roll , I doubt they will take that very real risk.
Very interesting to note when I was searching through Twitter from 2017 that a certain Ewan Murray was dead against an Independent Review of the SFA and how they handled the Rangers EBT situation, despite the highest court in the land ruling Rangers had acted illegally. That is the same Ewan Murray who is demanding an Independent investigation of the SPFL right now.
The media's attitude only goes to show how an independent investigation is simply not possible in Scotland. Everything hinges on what club is perceived to be losing out, and what club is perceived to be benefiting. It is certainly not about fairness, and ensuring all clubs are treated the same.
What a waste of time with the Neil Doncaster interview on Sportsound. Once again Doncaster has insisted on a 1 v 1 wishy-washy interview with a weak minded presenter who has no ability to 1) ask searching questions and 2) fails to follow up on the answers given.
What is the gombeen man like? Why, nothing other than a gombeen man, talking gobshite.
Regards player contracts and clubs being ready to play. Was 'certainty' and being able to plan for next season not one of the main driving forces behind the SPFL resolution.
Therefore player contracts should not really be an excuse in terms of not being ready to play.
Players on contracts that go beyond June 2020 are retained.
Those players whose contract ends in June 2020 can be let go.
To be ready to play you have to determine what you need for a squad and then decide if you want to resign players you had on your books and/or bring new players in.
The mechanisms for how you sign and register any new players required is up in the air. However I am sure the SFA and SPFL are planning on how to deal with matters such as registration processes and deadlines.
Presumably, because we are talking about contracts, then as they are already used in common practice, some form of agreed pre-contract could tie a player to a club but he will only start getting paid (if clubs cannot afford to do so) once football recommences.
If all teams (who are still solvent) are not ready to play as soon as it becomes possible then, to me, it means one of the major strands of the SPFL resolution was nonsense.
Love him or loath him Neil Doncaster is able to respond effectively to all the questions asked of him on BBC Sportsound today. Of course not good enough for Tom English! He has become Mr Angry.
Alan Preston passionate but showing the self interest he is complaining about!
Questions are answered but not good enough for Tom if he doesn't hear the answers he wants!
Incredibly Chic Young is the voice of reason.
Don't know why The Rangers is attacking Doncaster.
He should have his portrait on the marble staircase – as one of the 'gallant saviours' who came to Rangers rescue in 2012 – and who personally supported the Ibrox club with its "Going for 55" propaganda.
The guy deserves a debenture seat "for life"
at Ibrox, with his name on it, for services rendered.
That Govan mob is very ungrateful.
adam812 10th May 2020 at 12:55
Love him or loath him Neil Doncaster is able to respond effectively to all the questions asked of him on BBC Sportsound today. Of course not good enough for Tom English! He has become Mr Angry.
==================================
Tom English, when asked to comment on what was said by ND, gave David Currie a list of questions and follow ups that I would have liked to hear ND answer, but the listeners did not get that opportunity because of the way that ND has insisted the interview would be conducted. He did exactly the same with Richard Gordon a couple of weeks ago.
Personally I'm progressing from being Mr Frustrated to Mr Angry, so perhaps its time for me to take a chill pill and step away from the debate for a while.
I stopped following The Telegraph and the Daily Mail on social media during the Brexit debate for the good of my health . I should explain I used The Telegraph to try to ensure that I considered alternative views to my own and the Daily Mail because they had good online competitions but the lies and the bias become too much for me!
BBC Scotland Sportsound should not be a media outlet that falls into the same area, though I know many consider it has been for some years, but today I came close to switching off!
I will check my blood pressure later but I suspect the voice of reason, Chic Young (listen to show if you doubt me but be prepared for Tom), has brought it under control!
JC, Tom English – The Gombeen Man? That’s a polite version of what a lot of folk in his native Ireland are calling him!
He tries too hard to be seen to be a neutral in the tribal rivalry between the two Glasgow clubs. The problem for him is that he comes over as silly, trying to defend the indefensible at times.
Hope you don't Easyjambo, I enjoy reading your POV.
Jeezo Lads…….Pop out to the shop, and everything I was going to say has been said in some shape or form. lol. Perhaps maybe one thing…………Timing.
The £10m ?……A pre or post Euro application arrival?……Was it a loan, or an "Advance", against projected gate income…..The not so subtle difference is important to Sevco. The SPFL have insisted monies change hands the legal way, or the Highway.
The undated £10m arrival, either in the shape of a loan, share purchases from the club itself, or a donation, may well be covering the shortfall mentioned in the accounts. But it will be largely tanned on deferred wages which was originally the domain of the now lost home gates.
The community chest has just dealt them a Go to jail card. Do not collect £200 passing GO. ….. In other words, Back to where they were, but £10m poorer, and collecting zero income from hooses and hotels, missing out on the next three rolls of the dice to boot.
It is not the job of the SPFL to dress up monies transferred to clubs, to suit those pesky UEFA FFP requirements…….It is the job of the SPFL to transfer those monies in its legally recognised form. It is not their job to dish out, "Get out of jail free", cards.
Is the £10m in Sevco's account, or "Resting" in some other laundrette…errrrr, account, awaiting the arrival of next years accounting period?. Traditionally they do experience difficulties transferring wedges, and we all know how they like to uphold traditions.
What boxes on that pesky Euro form have they ticked, that are going to stick out like a sore thumb, come the monitoring period checks?.
It reeks !, and merits an independent investigation….. It should be included in the remit terms, seeing as Sevco have kindly offered to pick up the tab. ……There is yir smoking gun right there.
ICT statement out now really has put the cat among the pigeons!
All out civil war now
God knows who's going to win in the end or are there only losers?
A interesting paragraph from the ICT statement (my bold to highlight).
"We believe that serious questions remain over the actions of the MD of one club during the now infamous vote on April 10th and what happened between the submission of their legally binding ‘No’ vote before the fake 5pm deadline and 5 days later when they became the only club out of 42 to have 'negotiations' with the CEO and Chairman of the SPFL and with 'big hitters' or persons unknown, before being allowed to vote for a second time. This time to carry the SPFL Board’s resolution with a Yes vote. A genuinely independent investigation is the only possible route to try and uncover what happened and it may or may not reveal the reasoning behind their apparently contradictory statements since then."
I saw there were comments at the time about their CEO/spokesperson being a TRFC fan and perhaps angling for a job there. Is this hint at the famed 'unseen fenian hand' a sign that there may be some truth in that, or am I reading it through the wrong filter?
easyjambo @ 13.16
I gave you a ‘thumbs down’ only to show that I hope you don’t ‘step away’! However, it’s your call.
I’m sure the regular and also respected bloggers certainly don’t want you to cease and desist!
upthehoops 10th May 2020 at 12:30
Hope you gave it a retweet.
nawlite 10th May 2020 at 16:15
I appreciate there is often a desire form some to make it all about Celtic or T'Rangers but the ICT chairman has been pretty clear (from early on) regards his feelings on the matter and presumably this reflects that of the board he heads.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18377251.baffled-inverness-chairman-claims-dundees-shock-spfl-vote-u-turn-doesnt-smell-well/
Their CEO (regardless of his persuasion) is just the monkey to their organ grinder, otherwise he would be getting the sack for misrepresenting his board in public.
The board are all local Inverness men and long time supporters of the club (and those who came before it). Not one hint of having any sympathies with the Glasgow clubs. However if you want to delve deeper the Secretary Ian McDonald's bio suggests he went to St Joseph’s Primary School.
https://ictfc.com/the-board
Hopefully that may be of help to those with certain filters in terms of balancing things out re 'unseen fenian hands'.
Can we not just accept that some people in the game truly see the whole affair as a shambles and that a good number of teams have been unfairly treated with little or no acknowledgement of the subsequent fallout from those promoting the resolution.
A competent body would have managed the situation far more pro-actively but as usual the footballing authorities are left firefighting a situation they had a big hand in creating.
nawlite
I had copied the same paragraph intending to make a comment too! You might be right with your comments.
I wonder too if a boundary might have been crossed in respect of the degree of criticism of a fellow SPFL club and in particular its MD.
That said I might not be the best judge of the statement as I have to acknowledge a degree of bias when it comes to ICT. My footballing allegiances mean that the only time I want ICT to win is when they are playing Rangers!
easyJambo10th May 2020 at 13:16
….
I agree with your suggestion that Neil Doncaster had the easiest of rides today with Sportsound. The Rangers line of questions was classic sideshow given top billing. David Currie would not do well on BBC Hardtalk. But then again David might reasonably say he’s never pretended he is Zainab Badawi.
The priority has to be to re-start and finish the season unless the public health emergency makes it impossible. Hearts deserve that and so did Thistle. But so too Dundee Utd and Celtic.
It’s very disappointing and worrying to me that it feels like they are going to rob Celtic of the chance to create a new historic mountain high achievement of 11 and possibly 12 trophies in a row. Hearts I appreciate have different worries but to me from the exact same apparent lack of effort and desire from the SPFL.
Did David Currie ask Neil Doncaster if every avenue to play is being explored? Did he ask him about plans and progress on that at all? Did he block.s.
Wottpi, I agree completely and, for clarity let me say again that despite how it has been raised I DO want to see an independent enquiry into the SPFL's incompetence or whatever over the years. FWIW I lived in Inverness at the time ICT came into the leagues and went along for the first season or so – I have until now no axe whatsoever with the club.
I highlighted that part in bold only because I thought it a very strange thing to say. Other than those at FF etc, I haven't heard anyone even hint out loud that there might be someone above it all pulling the strings. We all know who those nutjobs on FF etc think it is and I just thought it strange that Gardiner put that in his statement. Do you have any thoughts as to what he might have meant, if I've taken it wrong?
Abbot
To me the question of league games being played seemed, from almost the start of lockdown, to be unlikely and without vast resources of some of the big leagues now seems impossible.
Even with lots of money there is a risk of clubs having outbreaks when could mess up the made plans.
In Scotland there's considerable doubt as to when any football will be played. It really is an impossible question to ask for a date
Any plans being made can only be tentative and giving false hope at this stage would seem to me to be falling unto the trap that some, eager to please, politicians readily seem to do.
To me the pragmatic suggestion made in an earlier post, which was not universally met with thumbs-up, increasingly looks like the only solution which could actually bring most clubs together is a compensation fund for those relegated.
Abbot of Clonmacnois 10th May 2020 at 16:56
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In what respect will Celtic be robbed of “…the chance to create a new historic mountain high achievement of 11 and possibly 12 trophies in a row” if the Premier League is “called” and Celtic are named League Champions.
Under those circumstances, the record books will attest to the fact that the 2019/20 Scottish Premiership League Championship was Celtic's ninth successive league title and also their ninth consecutive major Scottish trophy.
If this season's Scottish Cup competition is somehow played to a conclusion, and Celtic win it, that will be their tenth consecutive major Scottish trophy. If it isn't played to a finish then it hasn't been won by any club, so Celtic would have the opportunity to add to their run of consecutive trophy successes when they compete in whichever trophy (2020/21 Premiership or 2020/21 League Cup) is next to be contested.
Absolutely no need for you to be "very disappointed and worried".
Phew..
Adam812
no problem at all with your analysis. A re-start may be impossible and it is right for govt to focus everything on public health. But football-wise, and accepting it is only football, I’m just increasingly irritated with all the talk, time and energy being wasted on handbags in the SPFL boardroom when it should be about planning, organising and everything else needed to try to re-start.
Best to you.
Another day, another statement but this time from another club. To me, it feels like there is something pretty sinister going on at the current time and it looks like a small cabal of teams have joined together to try and disband the SPFL, although for different reasons. For one particular club, they are not happy about not getting the prize money (without there being any prizes awarded) and then free money in the form of a non-repayable loan, for others they don’t want to be relegated despite being in the relegation place on merit and instead insisting that all the leagues are reconstructed immediately to avoid this from happening.
I am going to disagree with some posters regarding the Neil Doncaster interview earlier today and thought that he was treated pretty poorly by David Currie. By all means ask him difficult questions but to ask him, more than once, whether his position is still tenable (clearly implying that it’s not) was pitiful – DC’s line of questioning was based upon the allegations contained within a certain “dossier” being accepted as fact, which we know not to be the case. As an aside, not a fan of ND in the slightest in view of his previous actions but find it galling that the BBC have only just found their voice to ask him questions when they have had years to do so about the events of 2012. No wonder people have serious questions about the impartiality and motives of the BBC.
We then get the statement of ICT, which was not a coincidence and looks like it was deliberately released following the ND interview. In fact on reading the ICT statement, it felt and read like something that a certain JT would have released in a recently held position (or am I being too cynical here?!). The statement was neither professional, nor helpful and just sounded like a bitter, personal attack. Why not follow the correct protocols and make a formal complaint/report regarding any bullying alleged instead of making reference to it in a public statement – it just doesn’t ring true.
The conduct of these few clubs is having a hugely detrimental effect, to the point that some sponsors must be seriously considering whether they want to have any association with our game and objectively, it would be hard to blame them. The teams pursuing these actions seem to be determined to prove the opinion held by many that Scottish football is a laughing stock and our leagues are a joke.
The Rangers nil? Who missed the penalty?
…
good name
what you say is fine, of course it is. But for me it has to be plan B. Much better to win it on the field. There has been a vote, a re-construction task force and now there’s an EGM about nothing, where’s the re-start working group / task force?
Just on the trophy numbers though, we have 10 already, the next one is 11. Cheers.
A quick one to lighten the mood.
As we all know many fans are a bunch of manks when it comes to hand washing at the half time pee.
If the new normal means folks will be more inclined to wash thoroughly- how long should half time be once football resumes?
nawlite 10th May 2020 at 16:15
“We believe that serious questions remain over the actions of the MD of one club during the now infamous vote on April 10th and what happened between the submission of their legally binding ‘No’ vote before the fake 5pm deadline
………..
The Fake 5pm Deadline should be in bold. To highlight it. What Fake 5pm deadline? Did he miss the
PLEASE RETURN AS SOON AS SIGNED AND, IF POSSIBLE BY 5.00 PM ON FRIDAY,10 APRIL 2020
Of course, CO, but he's on the PT side so taking their QC advice, I guess.
Cluster One 10th May 2020 at 19:02
More importantly, what the rules are alleged to have said.
https://i.postimg.cc/1zfp93tQ/SPFL-resolution-rules.jpg
From what I can gather the request to have the vote in by 5 O'Clock on Friday was actually a note on the voting slip.
All of the people claiming that as a deadline are basically saying, I never read the rules before I voted and just made up a deadline myself. I'm sure their shareholders are thrilled by that level of care and attention.
wottpi 10th May 2020 at 18:55
A quick one to lighten the mood. As we all know many fans are a bunch of manks when it comes to hand washing at the half time pee. If the new normal means folks will be more inclined to wash thoroughly- how long should half time be once football resumes?
————————————————
Dunno about you wottpi, but I'm not in the habit of dipping my dick in virus.
.
ElCapitano2013 10th May 2020 at 18:14
'.. As an aside, not a fan of ND in the slightest in view of his previous actions but find it galling that the BBC have only just found their voice to ask him questions when they have had years to do so about the events of 2012. No wonder people have serious questions about the impartiality and motives of the BBC.'
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Spot on, ElCapitano.
Hello Scott , just a quick call to let you know that Stewart Robertson may be stepping down from his role here at the club* and was wondering if you would be interested in applying , we are drawing up a shortlist , some doubt has been voiced over whether you are staunch enough for the position so if you could show you were maybe with a formal statement………. excellent.
Hello Tom , just a quick call to let you know that our PR guru may be stepping down from his role here at the club* and was wondering if you would be interested in applying , we are drawing up a shortlist , some doubt has been voiced over whether you are staunch enough for the position so if you could show you were maybe with some staunch articles in support of our position…………… excellent.
Hello TSB ? The bank that likes to say Yes ? This is Douglas Park ………What do you mean No ?
Now that we're all focused on doing what's best for what will remain of Scottish football , might it not be of help to split whatever money we can generate in more equitably to give more clubs a decent chance of surviving ? Top division gets 50% of the pot , split evenly between the clubs ; 2nd tier 25% ; 3rd tier 15% ; 4th tier 10% . Doesn't have to be forever , but surely a couple of years until we know where we are isn't too much to ask ? We will all have to make sacrifices .
Homunculus 10th May 2020 at 19:54
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Cluster One 10th May 2020 at 19:02
More importantly, what the rules are alleged to have said.
https://i.postimg.cc/1zfp93tQ/SPFL-resolution-rules.jpg
From what I can gather the request to have the vote in by 5 O'Clock on Friday was actually a note on the voting slip.
All of the people claiming that as a deadline are basically saying, I never read the rules before I voted and just made up a deadline myself. I'm sure their shareholders are thrilled by that level of care and attention.
======================================
100% correct as well as the slip we gather from their whatsapp messages that they knew the deadline was 28 days as this is mentioned in the conversations by the ICT guy. I did read a breakdown of these messages online however at this time I am unable to find them again I am sure it was one of the bloggers who was comparing them to specific points in the sevco dossier.
From 'The Herald' online's Matthew Lindsay this morning:
"..But the “dossier of evidence” they supplied the other 41 SPFL clubs on Thursday showed they had received legal advice from advocate Eoghainn CM MacLean about their chances in court.
'"In the circumstances, Rangers has a reasonably good prospect of obtaining an order for Mr Doncaster's removal as director and chief executive,” the dossier stated. “The prospect may be enhanced, if other clubs joined in an application for such an order."'
That's an interesting observation by the dossier(I don't think the statement is actually quoting Advocate MacLean's opinion ?) – implying that judges can be swayed not by force of legal argument but by how many folk are on one side rather than the other?
Absurd nonsense, surely.
New podcast. Wide ranging stuff from David Low.
https://www.podbean.com/ei/pb-ej2wk-dbfa55
The SPFL are incapable of change from within and are hamstrung by well structured member self interest.
The SFA are also incapable of change from within and are also hamstrung by the same self interest.
Our economy will not just return to what we thought was normal a few months ago.
Financial stress will bite hard and while all clubs should rightfully qualify for any available government help they only have a right to a fair share rather than any kind of priority.
In the coming deep depression the revenue challenges will affect the top and middle end clubs much more than the lower ranking community clubs and on restart, whenever that happens, change to the membership is inevitable.
The faux civil war playing out in front of us comes from a complicated series of interacting factors including fear, opportunism, immediate self interest and more.
It is more handbags than peaky blinders and is more about money, status and position than any real desire to make things better.
It has been easily compounded by the dearth of leadership at both SPFL and SFA.
That might seem like a criticism of Doncaster and Maxwell but it isn't just about our two "toom tabard" heads.
Neither organisation in reality want any leadership or leader who might become a threat to the current inherent dominance from our more powerful clubs.
Our two intertwined member organisations are hamstrung by what their power bases will fight to hold on to in an attempt to get back to whatever normality was.
Maybe that normality just wasn't and isn't good enough.
What fan in reality wants another 35 years where there will only been two league winners and over 20 years where our national team has become a serial under-performer?
Most fans want change, real change.
To me it seems the powerful clubs just want plus ca change.
I am not optimistic.
nawlite 10th May 2020 at 17:18
Finally managed to read the ICT statement (which is signed both by the CEO and Chairman) It is wide ranging.
As with your question re ‘big hitters’ and The Clumpany banging on re the ‘False deadline, I have to wonder why these particular issues are extracted from a message that covers a lot of ground.
More important to me is the explanation of ICT’s view on the process.
ICT clearly contradict what Doncaster said on the radio yesterday. They say they are actually willing to testify that there was bullying and they reported such to Doncaster.
They outline their stance in simple language
To me it is a matter of sporting integrity and support for fellow members of the organisation they are a member of. It does not mean they have borrowed ‘T’Rangers crayons’ to in someway support them and that mob’s east coast cousins etc etc.
Their stance does nothing in practical terms to assist T’Rangers whatsoever.
Given Partick’s fury are we now to believe the club seen as being ‘neutral’ in Glasgow has suddenly been turned to the ways of Castle Greyskull and therefore on the other side of the ‘divide’.
As for big hitters then taking ICT’s league position there are 13 clubs above them in the league structure.
There are 16 clubs above ICT in terms of average attendances.
All could be described as bigger hitters in Scottish Football than ICT.
Big hitters could be members from Aberdeen or Hibs as two of our top five clubs.
They could be the six club members on the SPFL board, three of whom are from the Premiership
It could be Doncaster, McKenzie or MacLennan.
What about Petrie or may Alloa Chairman and SFA VP Mulraney, sticking their noses in?
Maybe the big hitters are from Sky?
Finally, yes, maybe it is someone from Celtic.
Wottpi
You seem impressed, and inclined to believe that …
"these were threats and not robust conversations"
How about
"these were robust conversations and not threats"?
In other words ICT et al might say potayto, whilst SPFL lawyers rejoinder with potahto.
Whose next to jump on this farcical bandwagon? Now is not the time I would (again) suggest.
Let's get the future of our game secured first.
John Clark 10th May 2020 at 20:36 Edit
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ElCapitano2013 10th May 2020 at 18:14
'.. As an aside, not a fan of ND in the slightest in view of his previous actions but find it galling that the BBC have only just found their voice to ask him questions when they have had years to do so about the events of 2012. No wonder people have serious questions about the impartiality and motives of the BBC.'
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Hold, hold, hold
With Douglas Park announcing that the funding gap of £10 million pounds for this year has been made good by current investors then I see no further charges against TRFC on companies house. Not that there is a lot left to secure loans against other than Ibrox stadium.No share issue either so it appears to be unsecured loans or gifts. Maybe the investors are acting like Ticketus and are understandably agitated by slow take up of season tickets.